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Just wondering if someone could explain the various ideas about the end times.

I know that there are people who believe in a rapture, and those who don't. Those who think this rapture will happen before, during or after the tribulation....that sort of thing.

Could someone explain all the variants and why people believe each one?

-Emma

Hi Broken.

There are tons of books on the subject so I think it would be impossible to even give a "nutshell" explanation that would adequately cover each philosophy.

 I believe in the pre-trib Rapture.

This is from another topic where I posted the following...

There will definitely be a pre-tribulation Rapture.  The Lord will call Christians home before the Tribulation begins. Here are some verses that would be good for you to look up: I Thessalonians 4:16,17, I Corinthians 15:51,52 and Revelation 3:10.  The book of Revelation was written chronologically.  Revelation 1:19 says:  “Write the things which thou hast seen, the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter” (past, present and future).  Chapter 1 speaks of the past and chapters 2 and 3 speak of the present.  Time wise, we are approximately at Revelation 3:15,16 and 17—the cold, lukewarm, lackadaisical Laodicean church.  The future is shown in chapters 4-22.



The next event is Revelation 4:1 where John says: “After this I looked, and behold the door was open and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither…” This is the Rapture.  Some people think this passage is speaking only to John but if you read ahead you will see that verses 10 and 11 talk about the 24 elders casting their crowns before the throne.  This scene must take place after the Judgment Seat of Christ in order for the 24 elders to have crowns to cast at Jesus feet.  The Judgment Seat of Christ cannot take place unless all Christians are present.  This would mean that the Rapture has taken place.



The next event in Revelation, after the Rapture, is chapter 6, which is the Tribulation.  Since chapter 4 comes before chapter 6 (the Tribulation) then we must conclude that the Rapture does take place before the Tribulation.

 Let the arguing commence! :D

 

Hey Broken,

There are 3 major camps of thought as far as the end times:

Pre-Tribs or Premilinialists:  Christ will come and take all the believers away at the dawn of the start of the 7 year Tribulation callendar.  He will then return at the end of the 7 years to reign on earth for 1000 years.  Interpretation of the Revelations are taken as literal, in-your-face events...locust hoards and all.

Amilinialist:  They believe that we are currently living in the end times, and that the discriptions of Revelations are figurative in nature.  Christ will return at the appointed time, but that time is vague.

Post-millinialists:  They believe that Christ will return at the appointed time after the 7 year tribulation.  There is no "pre-millinial rapture".  Interpretation of the word follows along the same lines as the premils, but with that one exception.

I think there might be one other camp of thought out there, but it eludes me at present.  If there is anyone out there with a better discription or fells I'm wrong on my deffinitions above, feel free to correct/ammend me.

As far as why they believe what they do, there are certain factors that led to it:  1: Self discovery (they saw something within their own studies), 2: Church led (their church believes that it is translated like this...so therefore you should believe it also), and 3: Peer lead (Someone showed you something that made you believe).  But no matter what got them there, it all comes down to interpretation.  And that my friend is the rub, because it is a subject of hot and sometimes dividing debate.  People have lost faith because they argued this point.


For me, through a combination of peer and self study, I have come to the concusion that the pre-millinial interpretation is the right one, based on the fact that God has proven that His actions are not figurative...they are literal.  God didn't figuratively part the Red Sea, or send clouds of locust upon Egypt, or figuratively flood the world.  These are actual events that have substance.  So why wouldn't a army of horseman with mounts with snake tails, human heads, and breathing fire not a real thing???  With God, all things are possible!?!  Satan is real...Christ is real...so will the events of the Tribulation.

 

Post Millinialist, isn't that after the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth??

Petro

I think it is after just the seven years, when Christ returns, Petro.

Yikes, Broken.  That's a whole textbook, Could someone explain all the variants, and a whole separate textbook, and why people believe each one.  Hehe.  Will this be on the final?  Your just making us pay, arent' you, for all the misery you have to go through as a student?  I don't blame you.  Misery loves company.  Hehe.

Seriously, I've heard the whine that with all of the martyr suffering down through the ages,  it's a bit presumptive to assume still that believers in the last days, as in Tim Lehaye's book and movie, Left Behind, will escape and be "raptured" before the tribulation.  It's a nice thought, but doesn't seem very fair.

I tend to agree with that whine, so my whole leanings are that we won't be taken up until that actual coming of Christ, at the end of a seven year period.

This seven year period is divided into two halves, distinguished by the Antichrist taking his place in the throne, in the temple(most likely on the Temple Mount there in Jerusalem), at the end of the first half.  This will be the definitive "unveiling" of the Antichrist.  

For that first 3 and 1/2 years, it is thought likely that the Antichrist's identity will possibly be unknown, although it is said there will be certain things to look for(that he will be a Jew, that he will have no desire for women(homosexual??), etc.), and that some may figure it out.

My understanding to this view is that the Two Witnesses will be active during this first  3 and 1/2 years, also, so from that it would seem apparent we'll definitely know when we are in that period, sense they will be working some pretty impressive miracles.  It is thought, at least by me(hehe), that these Two Witnesses may not even know their own identity until their activity actually begins(it may have been possible that Jesus himself did not know all of his unfolding until it was within short view).

Once the Two Witnesses are killed and then taken up into heaven, and the Antichrist announces himself, and he cause the animal sacrifice, which also will have been going on for the first half, to cease(which, incidentally, DOES seem to dovetail nicely with the current, growing animal-rights league, etc.), then it will be the wrath of Satan, for 3 and 1/2 years, because he knows that he has only a short time left.  I "think" that's how it is.

Arguably, we are so close to all of this now.  The vice and crime, the bloodshed, the growing homosexual, or bi-sexual bent of the populace generally, the continued threat of war and "rumors of wars"...  all on now a global scale.

Most every statement above is supported by one or another scripture.  On the Antichrist, it is apparent from all of 1 John that "antichrist" is also a spirit, for anyone rejecting that Jesus is the Christ, and not just a particular individual.

But there are scriptural supports for the other views, including even the view, I suppose, that much of what Revelation describes somehow has already taken place, or took place in the 1st century A.D.(I think the Church of Chirst believes some or all of this?).

Hi Broken
Im a no rapsure.Theres just to many unanswered questions about it.Such as the last trumpet.

1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

1 COR. The LAST trumpet sounds
Joel 2   There blows a trumpet            

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

In Cor. the WORD says its the LAST TRUMPET (the last) and you have trumpets blowing in Joel 2 on the day of the LORD. The Day of the Lord will last but 1 year(according to scripture). So there is no room for a mid or pre trib. rapture. Cor.15 is speakin of the gathering of Gods people when He shall bring them to HIS kingdom for the 1000 yr period of rest which is spoken of in Revelations.

DEUT.30  [1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,[2] And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;[3] That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.[4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:[5] And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee

In the twinkling of an eye

W&S..

The last trump of God is blown in Rev 4

Rev 4:1   After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  
   
Rev 4:2   And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

There is a definate distinction made here. The trump that John describes here is actually God's own voice...God's "trump"

This is the last time we hear God's trump, after this the only trumps we find are being blown at God's direction by angels.

Read what happens following God's last trump

 
    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 These verses have God's "Last trump" the dead rising first, immediately followed by those who are still alive being "caught up" (Raptured) together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Then for further proof that we have been Raptured up to Heaven, we find verses further on in Revelation that depicts us returning to the earth with Jesus.

    Rev 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  
   
    Rev 19:12   His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  
   
    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  
   
    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

 The armies which were in Heaven...that's us. How do we know?

    Rev 7:13   And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?  
   
    Rev 7:14   And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.  

No where in the scripture that you provided are these events described...they are seperate events. The rapture happens at God's last trump. Many other events take place following trumpet warnings which are blown by angels, and not God.

Following our return with Jesus there is a thousand years of rest.

    Rev 20:1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.  
   
    Rev 20:2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,      
    Rev 20:3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.  

Thanks Bronze
So what your saying is the last trumpet is not really the last trumpet, but the last trumpet blown by God himself?

Ya also wrote
Read what happens following God's last trump

    1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
    1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Thes.4        clouds  -  trumpet  -  voice
Zeph 1         clouds   -  trumpet  -  voice

ZEHP.1  [14] The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

Bronze ya see my problem here. Zeph. and Thes. are saying the same things. Only in Zeph. the Day of the Lord is mentioned by name. Again that day last but 1 year according to scripture.

W&S quote...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Read the verse again, then see if you can find God sounding a trumpet anywhere else. You won't find it. The rest of the trumpets are blown by angels.

   1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  



So, here wehave the Lord (Jesus) descending from Heaven with a "shout" also with the voice of the archangel "Michael" and with the trump of God(Now here's the major difference from the verses you are useing) The next thing that happens is every believer who has died since Christ's first coming will "rise" first, then, every believer remaining who is alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ. This is the rapture W&S, and this scene is not depicted anywhere in the verses you are useing, because they are seperate events.



Yes, the words are the same as are many, many words used in different verses in the bible. However, they don't describe the same events.
In Thes 4. The words are clearly used to describe God calling all believers with His final trump, who are then raised off the earth into the clouds to meet Jesus.

The word in Zeph are not used in the same context. They are used to describe the terrifying condition of the earth because of the events takeing place during the wrath of God


Look at the wording used at the begining of that verse.

The great day of the LORD is near, it is near,

It's not here, it is near.


and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD

There is a clear distinction from the great day of the LORD and the voice of the day of the Lord.

So this verse is telling us that, the day of the Lord is near, and because it is so close it causes the voice of the day of the Lord to occur sooner, it hasteth greatly


So why would the voice of the day of the Lord happen before the great day of the Lord?
Because the voice of God is the signal which causes the rapture of His saints to occure, before the wrath begins


 I have tried to show you that they are not the same events W&S my friend.

The Tribulation lasts for seven years, not one W&S. I think you're confusing the word "day" used in that scripture. The word day is used to describe the beging of God's wrath, not the duration. It means, that is the day God's wrath begins. If it meant a litteral year, then the trumpet alarm mentioned there would have to last for an entire year.

Talk to ya soon my brother.

Hi Bronze
I also have trouble with somethin written in Job.

When shall we “ALL” be changed
1COR.15[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

JOB 14  [12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me![14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job knew when we shall “ALL”  be changed. After the wrath has past and after the heavens be no more. In Isaiah 34 which is describing the “DAY OF THE LORD” the WORD says that at that time the heavens shall be dissolved. So Bronze, ya see once again all these rapture scriptures appear to be speaking of The Day of the Lord. And i know that the Day of the Lord is not the entire tribulation period. Its the final year(according to scripture).

Hi W&S...

Remember Job was Old Testament, and yes, he did know when he would be raised...
     Job 14:13   O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!  
   
    Job 14:14   If a man die, shall he live [again]? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.  

We are forgiven of our sins through acceptance of Jesus' sacrafice on the cross. The Old Testament saints obviously could not accept Jesus, because Jesus wasn't on earth in their time. All faithful Christians will be raptured, Old Testament saints are not Christians, and must wait " until thy wrath be past"

Only faithful Christians - those who have been alive from the time of Christ and on are Raptured.

Hi Bronze

Matt.27  [50] Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;[52] And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
[53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Who are these guys, could Job be one of them? Where are they now? Could these be the saints that will be with Jesus at HIS coming?

Jesus resurrected Lazarus as well as a young girl. There were some who were resurrected as are depicted in the verse you posted. These people lived a time and then died, as did Lazerus. The bible doesn't give details on who these people were. I doubt very seriously that any of them were Old Testament saints, if they were it surely would have been pointed out. Job understood that he would not be resurrected until after God's wrath was complete, the same goes for all Old Testament saints.



    2Cr 5:6   Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:  
   
    2Cr 5:7   (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)  
   
    2Cr 5:8   We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.  

 When we die we are "absent from the body" so our bodies are in the grave, while we reside in spirit with the Lord.
At the rapture, all Christians will have their bodies reconstituted into eternal bodies. The dead in Christ will have their spirits reunited with their new eternal bodies, those who remain alive at that time will be "changed" into their eternal form and be raised (raptured) by Jesus.

    1Cr 15:50   Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  
   
    1Cr 15:51   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  
   
    1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  
   
    1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.  
   
   1Cr 15:54   So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  



If they have faith in Jesus they will be raptured along with all the dead believers and Raptured. All the raptured will return with Jesus at His coming.

Mornin Bronze
Only a few more questions i have. Who are these people spoken of in scriptures below that will be hidden and protected  through the tribulation? According to these scriptures they are protected from the beginning, no harm done to them. Now, if God is capable of protecting these people who are not appointed to wrath, why couldnt HE protect those you say are rapsured?

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as
I am not of the world.[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

ISAIAH 26 [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.[21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover
her slain.

ZEPH.2 [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.[3] Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

PROVERBS 3  [25] Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.[26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

Hello W&S

I believe that those who have heard the Gospel message and rejected it
will NOT be automatically condemned after the Rapture. Joel 2:28-32
contains prophecies concerning the Tribulation Hour. It says “And it
shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord
shall be delivered”. Peter refers to Joel 2 in his sermon at Pentecost
in Acts chapter 2. We also see in Romans 10:13 that God says: “For
whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. We see
through these texts a clear indication that in all ages God has allowed
any one to be saved who would put their faith in Jesus, the Messiah.
 
Every believer will be evacuated at the rapture, but then the greatest
revival in history occurs on earth as the 144,000 Jews begin to proclaim
the message that the kingdom of Christ is at hand. (Revelation 7: 4-8)
Those who were converted during the tribulation hour are “These which
have come out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes white
in the blood of the lamb.” (Verse 14).
 
Many Christians have been taught that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth
with the rapture. That’s impossible. The Holy Spirit is the 3rd member
of the Trinity of God. God is omnipresent – He’s everywhere at all
times. (Psalm 139:7) The confusion comes from a misinterpretation of
II Thessalonians 2:7. “…He who now hinders will hinder until he be
taken out of the way and then shall that wicked one, the antichrist be
revealed”. The Holy Spirit is not the hinderer, Christians are. We
are the temple of the Holy Spirit. So when we’re the ones who will be
taken out of the way. Joel 2:28 and Acts 2:17 clearly state, “I will
pour out my Spirit upon ALL flesh.” The book of Revelation is written
chronologically. In chapters 2 & 3 we have the history of the seven
churches. After chapter 4:1, (“Come up hither”), the term church is
never used again. In verses 10 and 11, the elders are laying their
crowns at Jesus’ feet. You can’t get your crowns before the
resurrection of the dead – the rapture. In chapter 5, verse 9, they are
singing about their return to the earth to rule and reign with Christ.
You can’t come down if you’ve never gone up.


Later my friend.

My explanation on the end times: There'll be wars and disasters, God's gonna come, we'll go the heaven, not necessarily in that order. (Oh, yeah, I real learn-ed, I learn-ed my Bible, lol!) (But seriously - its one of those things only God knows for sure.)

willow quote...


Hi willow.
We don't have to be left in the dark about this, God gives us the bible so we can know what's going on. Granted, some things won't be revealed until the appropriate time, but there is plenty of scripture to reveal the rapture.
Take care.

Hi Bronze
you posted
revival in history occurs on earth as the 144,000 Jews begin to proclaim
the message that the kingdom of Christ is at hand.

Theres only 24,000 that will be considered Jews. The rest will be the remant of the 10 scattered tribes. 12,000 from each tribe.

Me again
Youve stated there will be 2 resurections in this 7 yr period. Will there also be 2 raptures.

MATT.24  [29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Another rapture when HE gathers HIS elect?

Interesting...

Read the verses carefully W&S.
That verse is clearly describing Christ's return to earth with His Raptured Saints after the tribulation.

MATT.24  [29] Immediately after the tribulation

His faithful believers are Raptured before the seven years of tribulation. Once the seven years are complete His Raptured Saints return to earth with Him as described in the verse you posted.

Also notice where the elect are being gathered from...not the four corners of the earth, but ...
"and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

 So this verse does not describe a Rapture, it describes Christ's physical return with His Saints to the earth.

I don't know how much more I can try to clear this up for ya W&S,  it's not a "Heaven or Hell" issue, so if you don't believe it that's cool. I believe it.

Take care my brother.
 

Don't fall into that trap my friend. That sounds a lot like a Jehova Witness argument.

 God makes it quite clear who these 144,000 are.

    Rev 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  
   
    Rev 7:5   Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.  
   
    Rev 7:6   Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.  
   
    Rev 7:7   Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.  
   
    Rev 7:8   Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

Those aren't Sweedish tribe names my friend. Remember, the Jews were tossed from their country a few times, and returned again. They were Jews when they were "scattered" they were Jews when they returned, and they are still Jews today.

Hi Bronze
Dont know about Jehovah Witness beliefs but i have studied the 12 tribes. In fact in 2nd Kings the Jews are at war with the 10 other tribes. All through old testament scripture is quite clear about this.The tribe of Judah, is the line through which Jesus came.

Surely you dont believe the BRIDE of Christ consists only of Jews?

REV.21  [9] And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,[11] Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Hi Bronze
You wrote
Also notice where the elect are being gathered from...not the four corners of the earth, but ...
"and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

EZEK.37  [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

theres the FOUR WINDS Bronze and it sounds like these people aint comin back from heaven and this scripture says its the whole house of Israel. Do ya still believe them to be all Jews?

W&S.

You really have to read more carefully my friend.
First of all the 144,000 Jews from the Twelve Tribes are saved Christians, only they accept Jesus after the Rapture.

Then you must know the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven is named after the Jewish city...does this mean only Jews will be permitted in it?

You also forgot that the names of the 12 apostles are also found there.

Rev 21:14   And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, I don't know how you interpret that scripture to mean that the Bride of Christ consists only of Jews. If you read further on it becomes chrystal clear.

    Rev 21:24   And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.  
   
   Rev 21:25   And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.  
   
    Rev 21:26   And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.  
   
    Rev 21:27   And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.  
 
     
 

W&S

Once again, you must read more carefully my friend.

Look what is happening here W&S.

Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain.

God is pointing out that the power to raise "these slain, that they may live" comes from the very breath of God, which travels on the four winds from Heaven.

This is not a Rapture verse W&S. This verse in no way describes a return from anywhere, let alone Heaven.

This verse describes the following Revelation verses.

 
    Rev 20:5   But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  

  Rev 20:6   Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.  

  Rev 20:11   And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.  
   
    Rev 20:12   And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.  
   
    Rev 20:13   And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.  
   
    Rev 20:14   And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.  
   
    Rev 20:15   And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.  

Like I said my friend, this is not Heaven & Hell stuff. So we really shouldn't argue over it, there's plenty of arguing going on here already.

Later my brother.

Hi Bronze
I have not argued with you at all. Ive read the answers ya give and go on to the next question. Cept for the 12 tribe thing. Also,I think it could come down to a heaven or hell thing. If people believe this rapsure thing, theyre expecting to see Christ before the bad guy gets here. If the "anti-Christ" arrives and brings down fire from the sky as scripture says he will and gives his explanation as to why youse guys are still on earth will youse except him, thinkin they are witnessing Christ?

Hi Bronze
Well, earlier you said that GOD blows the trumpet in 1 Cor.15 and the angels blow it elsewhere. No where else would i find GOD blowing the trumpet himself. Well......

ZECH.9  [12] Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;[13] When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.[14] And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the LORD GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.[15] The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
[16] And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.[17] For how great is his goodness, and how great is his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.

Whirlwind-arrows- lightning- Especially"in that day"

If you can read Zech.and tell me this trumpet that GOD blows is before the tribulation, then in that day you might have soom spainin to do.

ZECH.12
[3] And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
[4] In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
[6] In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
[8] In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
[9] And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
[11] In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

ZECH. 9  [16] And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people(GOD blows the trumpet in that day)

Hello again W&S...

If you read through these verses you can see they describe a chronological order of events from the time of Jesus' first coming upto the second coming.


    Zec 9:9   Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

 When did this happen? ...During Jesus' first coming.
   
    Zec 9:10   And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion [shall be] from sea [even] to sea, and from the river [even] to the ends of the earth.  
   
    Zec 9:11   As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein [is] no water.  
   
    Zec 9:12   Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare [that] I will render double unto thee;  
   
    Zec 9:13   When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty man.  
   
    Zec 9:14   And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.  
Not amongst them, or on earth...over them...Then what does He do? does He stay?...no, He leaves..."and shall go with whirlwinds of the south."

This is the Rapture.
   
    Zec 9:15   The LORD of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, [and] make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, [and] as the corners of the altar.  
   
    Zec 9:16   And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they [shall be as] the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.  
   
    Zec 9:17   For how great [is] his goodness, and how great [is] his beauty! corn shall make the young men cheerful, and new wine the maids.  

Hey W&S.

So far I have answered all of your queries. Now perhaps you can answer some of mine.

Explain what's going on in these verses and when.

    1Th 4:13   But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.  
   
    1Th 4:14   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  
   
    1Th 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  
   
    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
   
    1Th 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  


     1Cr 15:51   Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  
   
    1Cr 15:52   In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  
   
    1Cr 15:53   For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.  
   
    1Cr 15:54   So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  

What does this mean?
   1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

What's going on in this verse, and when does this take place? and who are these armies with Jesus?
Where are they coming from?
How did they get there?

    Rev 19:11   And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  
   
    Rev 19:12   His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  
   
    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  
   
    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

If you're going to believe the Rapture doesn't happen, then you will need to ignore these verses, or take them totally out of context.

Later my friend.

Hi Bronze
1 Thes 4 - I simply beleive what it says-God gathers HIS people to give them the land promised Abraham. The people who have died in Christ rise first, then HIS people which are alive are brought up to meet HIM in the air
1 COR says the same thing as 1 thes 4 in the twinkling of an eye. At the LAST trumpet.

Before this goes any further Bronze and ya get mad at me i just wanna thank you for answering questions. Im really not tryin to provoke ya to anger but when 2 people disagree on somethin its hard to state your case without steppin on toes.So again i say thanks. Heres verses on when GODS people will be gathered

DEUT.30  [1] And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,[2] And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;[3] That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.[4] If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:[5] And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.[6] And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.[7] And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.[8] And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day.[9] And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers:[10] If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.[11] For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.[12] It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?[13] Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?[14] But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.[15] See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;[16] In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

EZEK.37  [4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of
the LORD.[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:[6] And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.[7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.[8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.[9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

MATT.24  [29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1THES.4  [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of
the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

ISAIAH 43 [1] But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.[2] When thou passest through the waters, I
will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.[3] For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.[4] Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.[5] Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;[6] I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;[7] Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.[8] Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.[9] Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.[10] Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.[11] I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.[12] I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.[13] Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?[14] Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
[15] I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Sorry Bronze, i have about 10-15 of these scriptures,ill send them a little later.

I guess ill send them 1 at a time as i find them

MATT.25 [31] When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:[32] And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:[33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.[34] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

inherit the kingdom - i suppose i should ask you now before sending more. Do you believe the Kingdom will be the land promise Abraham?

Psalm 37 kinda puts it in a nut shell

Psalm 37  [27] Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.[28] For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.[29] The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

W&S quote...


I'm not angry in the least my brother, it's just getting a little redundant here is all. I have enjoyed our discussions W&S even though we see things differently.


You're forgetting a couple of important events that go along with these verses.

       1Th 4:14   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.    

 Where does God bring us?  

    1Th 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  
   
    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
   
 He brings us to meet Him in the air. That's odd isn't it? Where do we go after that? We go to Heaven. How do I know that?
Because of this verse...

 Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Well, how long were we in Heaven for?

   Mat 24:29   Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  
   
    Mat 24:30   And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  

So here we clearly see there are many people on the earth when Jesus returns.
   
    Mat 24:31   And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.    

 And here we clearly see there are many people coming from Heaven (not here waiting on earth) with Jesus, After the tribulation
How long is the tribulation? seven years.
So we are in Heaven for seven years...we are Raptured up to Heaven for seven years, while many people remain on the earth during the entire seven years. After the tribulation (seven years) we return from Heaven with Jesus.

 W&S,  It is very confusing to try and decipher what your opinion is when you post multiple verses together like you did.

Usually, whenever I post verses I try not to group too many together, and I try to give my opinion on any verses I select.

Good discussing with you as always my friend.

     

OK Bronze
Your probably right about the multiple verse thing.Ill keep that in mind. I think i could have done a better job in stating my case through scripture but i kinda put things like this on the back burner and keep Gods 10 commandments on the front burners. Just wanna send one more scripture to ya, then go back to the drawing board on the rapture.

JOEL 2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. [9] They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.[10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [16] Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. [28] And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: [31] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.[32] And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

As you can see, clouds, earthquake,heavens tremble,stars withdraw their shining,(all Day of the LORD stuff)
Then the gathering-let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet

TAKE CARE BRONZE SNAKE

Hello W&S

I guess I can throw out one more time. ;)

The Joel verse has an angel blowing the trumpet, not God. It is a verse describing conditions during the tribulation. We are not here at this time.

Also read this verse again.

     1Th 4:14   For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.  
   
    1Th 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.  
   
    1Th 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  
   
    1Th 4:17   Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  
   
    1Th 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  

 Why would God tells us to comfort one another with "these words" if we knew we were going to have to be stuck on earth during the time of God's wrath? How comforting is that?
God wants us to feel comfort due to the fact that He has not appointed us to His wrath, we will be taken away before His wrath begins. Trust Him W&S, you know He loves us.

In these following verses God shows us who will face His wrath and who will not.

Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

So tell me this W&S...If we believe what God says then we must decide which of these situations we will find ourselves in. Will you be around for God's wrath? or do you believe you are saved through Jesus and spared His wrath?

Bronze
My last post had nothing to do with trumpets.Only Bride-Bridegroom- ON the Day of the Lord
Do ya think ya get to decide what happens  by saying ya believe somethin. I know GODS plan will happen as HE wants no matter what fables man comes up with

No wrath for HIS people

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as
I am not of the world.[15] I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.[16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

ISAIAH 26 [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.[21] For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover
her slain.

ZEPH.2 [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the LORD come upon you, before the day of the LORD's anger come upon you.[3] Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth,
which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD's anger.

PROVERBS 3  [25] Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh.[26] For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken.

I posted these before????