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Well...I justed wanted to see where people stand on Calvinism and Arminianism around here...feel free to post and explain your veiws...
 God bless!

H&F,

 I have been labeled a Calvinist. Labeled before i know what the word meant ??? I thought the  word calvin had to do with Calvery....

I accept the label  and the bibical teaching. What I come against is rhetoric of the anti-Arminian.  I come from 4 generations of Christians and in that, 3 generations of pastors.  I have never met a man more Christlike then my Assemblies of God pastor, who was also my Dad.

 When I hear Calvinist spouting Billy Graham is a heretic, I ask what is heretical about telling the lost Jesus died for them? So BG uses the term ‘come to Jesus’  Jesus said ‘come follow Me’.

I agree with you...I'm a Calvinist, all the way, but most of my best friends are arminians...we have debates and argue about stuff, but we all accept the fact that we're all Christians...I can't stand it when people say "Arminians aren't Christains" or "Calvinists aren't Christians."  I love Calvinism and enjoy debating it... when it gets to the point that people start doubting if the other side is really Christian...that's going to far.

Hello, "Hands and Feet of Jesus" and Reba.  Like you, I'm a five-point Calvinist.  :)

Romans 3:10-11 (KJV) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

Matthew 1:21 "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."

John 6:37-44 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out... No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him".

Romans 8:28-30  "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Ephesians 1:4-5 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will".

Acts 13:48 "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".

It's so comforting to know that God loves me too much to even let me choose Hell, even though I totally deserve it.  But, I agree with both of you.  I would never call Billy Graham a heretic.  Arminians are just as much brothers and sisters in Christ as Calvinists are.  But, I believe "Calvinism" is the Gospel in its fullest sense.  Salvation, from start to finish, is entirely the work of God.  

May Our Sovereign Lord Bless You,
Chuck

Hey Chuck welcome to CU.

The calvinist label as far as i am conserend is only to make the under current of my posts known to the other folks. I have not studied his writings nor will i. I have read the one paragraph bio in the encyopedia. Odd how the label fits  :P

Raised in arminism fearfull of not measuring up , i can only shout with joy at the knowlege that HE is soverign. Sovereign in my salvation wow! I like you diserve hell ....

His words... your post  a pleasure to read Chuck  Thanks!

Well, as usual, I hit the 1%. I believe that predestination and freewill are both true and they only become untrue when we put ourselves in God's perspective. He is in eternity and sees the whole picture from beginning to end....we don't. From our end, it's free will, from His, He can use evil to bring about good because He already know that they have chosen wickedness and He see it in them from the womb. HOw does He know this..?...well He is God.
I used to be full Calvinist until I saw a plain choice given in the garden, and I began to understand why God had created evil. Without evil as a defining contrast, God's power and glory would never be known to His creation.

Ro 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Raphu said:God did NOT create evil.
God defined evil.
God created freewill.  God expelled Satan from His presence.  Satan is the father of evil.  Not God!
The scripture you present is better translated to say "...created disaster".  To me - it is a totally different thing.

Saying God "created evil" is the same as saying "God can lie" - which is impossible.  

Please show me more scripture to back up your theory, and please check the translation you are reading with other, more accurate translations.

Yours in the Lord,
JN

there are several meanings of the word evil... in this verse it is not talking about moral evil but rather metephysical.... in this sense the very construct of the universe has evil in it. a thunderstorm, decay of energy, falling and scraping a knee.. none of these are the design of the enemy or our own immoral leanings, and all of these would have happened in eden if we really had a freewill before "death" entered the world.

as for the initial question.. i am not a calvanist or arminian... i believe in predestination as well as freewill and these concepts were around long before either of  john calvin or jacobus arminius. i am a paradoxicalist.... if there is such a thing.

mike

How ever we read the verse it says God created evil i have yet to read a verse that says God created freewill. Any one know of one? My 'search' did not bring one up..

That's because you were not looking in the right place! Let's go back to Genesis 1:26,27; 2:7: "And God said, Let us make man IN OUR IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS... So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him, male and female created He them... And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life: and man became a living soul".

What does it mean to be created in the image and likeness of God? This "living soul" was like God in the following ways:

1. As God is sovereign over His own universe, He made man to be "sovereign" -- under Him -- over all created things "and let them have dominion" (Gen. 1:26,28).

2. As God is perfect, He made His entire creation -- including man -- "very good" or perfect (Gen. 1:31).

3. As God delights in His creation, He gave man a "Garden of Delights" (Eden) to enjoy, but more importantly, to enjoy fellowship with the Creator, who walked in the Garden to commune with man (Gen. 3:8).

4. As God delights in faithfulness, He gave man stewardship over His creation and His Garden: "And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden, to dress it and to keep it" (Gen. 2:15).

3. As God has a heart, a mind and a will, God gave the same to mankind, and made him morally responsible and accountable for his choices: "And the LORD God commanded the man [which means that man can understand God's commands and obey them], saying, Of every tree of the garden THOU MAYEST FREELY EAT [free will, free choice for man]: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it [one single test of love and obedience for man in a Garden of Delights]: for in the day that thou eatest thereof [the potential and the possibility of disobeying God by exercising his free will] thou shalt surely die [the consequence of disobedience, which is transgression, rebellion and sin]" (Gen. 2:16,17).

That this free will did not disappear after the Fall is clear from the record of Cain [who freely chose his own way] and Abel [who freely chose God's way]: "And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.  And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? IF THOU DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED? and if thou does not well, sin lieth at the door.  And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him... By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, BY WHICH HE OBTAINED WITNESS THAT HE WAS RIGHTEOUS... (Gen. 4:4-7; Heb. 11:4). Abel chose to believe God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Cain chose to disbelieve God, and was under the curse.

Nothing has changed since the Fall. There are those who choose to believe the Gospel and those who choose to disbelieve it: "He came unto His own, and his own received Him not.  But as many as received Him, to them gave He power ot become the sons of God, EVEN TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME..." (Jn. 1:11-13).

That is why Scripture says: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YE WILL SERVE... but as for me an my house, we will serve the Lord" (Josh. 24:15).  This choice is place before every sinner every day. This choice is also placed before every believer who either chooses to walk in the flesh or walk in the Spirit (Gal. 5:16-26).
 

actually it doesn't... depending on the way evil is meant (moral, natural, or metaphysical) it can mean a lot of different things. kind of like the word day in genesis 1.. it can mean that the earth was created in 6 12 hour periods, 6 24 hour periods, or 6 undetermined lengths of time possible millions or billions of years.

as for the word freewill not being found in the bible... try reading it rather than do word searches..

mike

H7451
רעה    רע
ra‛  râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]
H7489
רעע
râ‛a‛
raw-ah'
A primitive root; properly to spoil (literally by breaking to pieces); figuratively to make (or be) good for nothing, that is, bad (physically, socially or morally). (associate selves and show self friendly are by mistake for H7462.): - afflict, associate selves [by mistake for H7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), show self friendly [by mistake for H7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behave self, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse.


as far as the word  'day' from gen 1 well God gives us a 'time frame'    So  is dont see a million years there....


 Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Mike,  Maybe you did not understand me.   "How ever we read the verse it says God created evil"  Simpely read the words. The verse quoted says God created the evil. If you read the word evil to mean "ugly evil" or clamity which ever the verse says God created it.  I did not say the word freewill was not in scripture..

 Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

this is matter for another thread.. i was just making the example that depending on the usage a word can have various meaning.



i may have misunderstood you...
i am not disputing the fact that it says god created evil, but rather what that word means... for instance if god created evil =calamity, entropy, the chaos that must exist in a freewill habitat, that is one thing, to claim that evil in this case is meant as a moral evil, "God created murder, or God caused the holocaust, or God causes satanic ritual abuse" is an entirely different matter. again it is important to define what a word means and in what sense it is to be taken. God is love could mean that God is sex, agape, affection, friendship, desire... depending on the way we mean love..



mike

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I view this to mean God has created judgment.
He is in control. He chooses who he is going to save, the rest will be judged.
It will be a sore, grievous, noisome, sad, day of affliction.

The word ra and it’s feminine form ra‘ah has been translated in these ways and more, but usually it is translated evil, 442 times in the King James.

evil 442, wickedness 59, wicked 25, mischief 21, hurt 20, bad 13, trouble 10, sore 9, affliction 6, ill 5, adversity 4, favoured 3, harm 3, naught 3, noisome 2, grievous 2, sad 2, misc 34; 663

It does not mean God created sin.
I am also labeled a Calvinist, like Reba I haven’t spent much time studying his works. I have read a little.
I doubt if I agree with everything he says, he was only a man.
I do believe man has freewill, but man would never use that freewill to choose God. We can’t, we are spiritually dead.
Man will be judged by the free choices he makes, I don’t see how judgment can be just if it is not because of our choices. And the bible indicates hell has greater punishment for some than for others.

Matthew 23:14  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

But the dead can’t choose life.

Isaiah 45:7

(NIV)
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD , do all these things.

(NASB)
The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity;  I am the LORD who does all these.

(AMP)
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

(KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

(NKJV)
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.'

(NLT)
I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

i may have misunderstood you...

It is a sad theology that makes God contradict Himself. If God is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance, then it is inconceivable that He will at the same time choose some for Heaven and others to Hell, whether by default or not is immaterial.  This is a grievous misrepresentation of the grace of God and has no foundation in Scripture: "For God sent not His Son in to the world to condemn the world; but THAT THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED." (Jn. 3:17). There you have God's clear and gracious intent for sending His only begotten Son.

However, salvation is conditional: "THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16).

Those who will not believe [for whatever reason] are SELF-CONDEMNED: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM" (Jn. 3:36).

Those who will not receive the Saviour must face the consequences of their sin and unbelief. God has made full and free provision FOR ALL MANKIND. He invites all to partake of the Bread of Life and the Water of Life (Rev. 22:17).

Just a thought.

As with anything that properly belongs to God, man has an enormous capability to "explain" and "define" those things. Some do it well, so do it horrendously, and many more take a little of each or one and turn it into something that wasn't meant.

Calvinism has some very good and well founded (theologically) points. Unfortunately, some have taken what was adequate in itself, and have stretched it out, and made other things out of it....such as: Calvinism and predestination gave rise to Hitler and anti-semitism in its extremest form. Predestination has lead others into concluding that it doesn't matter what they do or don't do, if they are chosen, then they are chosen, and if not, then they aren't...and this gives rise to a que sera mentality that excuses sin and dampens evangelicalism.

OTOH....Arminian theology, with a well-grounded (theologically) belief in free will, has given rise to open theism, which concludes that God is not omniscient, and does not have a real clue as to what is going to happen next. It has also led to a return to the gnostic heresies which are growing today by leaps and bounds. Additionally, it leads to the rejection of assurance, which can be devastating....what hope is there when there is no hope?

There is too much scripture to indicate that indeed, God has given mankind the right to choose. But there is also too much scripture to state unequivocally that God is the prime mover and sole source of salvation.

He enlightens our feeble minds (see Jn. 17-18), He gives to us the measure of faith (ability to recognize and believe), and He then calls upon us to make a choice to accept or reject, to believe or not, to be saved or damned.

I'll have a helping of Calvinism, please, with a dash of Arminius on the side...not too much, thank you....don't want to overdo any of the spices. Oh...and leave Pelagius on the stove....that stuff creates gas!

Buuuuurrrrrppp! Ahhhhhh....that was good! ;D

Verses that refute inherited sin of Adam and show that man has been given of God free will to sin or not to sin.

 Ezekiel 18:18. As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.
 19.  Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
 20.  The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
 21.  But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
 22.  All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
 23.  Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
 24.  But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to All the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
 25.  Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
 26.  When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
 27.  Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
 28.  Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
 29.  Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
 30.  Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

This only makes God contradict himself IF you accept YOUR definition of John 3:16,17 and 36.
We are commanded to believe, and there are some that teach salvation can be found if we keep all of God’s commandments.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Are you one of those that claim we can only be saved if we keep all of Gods commandments? Or just that one?
I don’t believe it is possible to keep all of Gods commandments. Who can live their life without sinning?
Think about what you are saying. If we all have the same, equal, ability to believe then you have a God that is unfair, unrighteous, and unjust.
You would have to have a society of clones, all born with the same knowledge, and mental capability. Or else God is not fair.
Your Gospel paints this picture of God.

Aztec at the throne of God:
“If I would have ever heard of you I would have believed.”
God:
“Doesn’t matter, you didn’t believe, so now you are condemned to Hell. Have a nice day.”

The idea that believing unto salvation is within every humans ability contradicts scripture.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Philippians 1:28  And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Philippians 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Why do you want to take credit for the work of God?

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If God wanted to save all of mankind He could. God is not impotent.
God did not create sin, He never wanted anyone to perish. We perish because we sin. That is where our freewill gets us, it is the path of sin.
Sower, your gospel appeals to those that are too proud to ask for help.
It is like the guy that drives around lost, refusing to ask for directions.
You make the claim that if you don’t believe you are self condemned!!??
Then you deny the word of God.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

All sorts of people have never heard one word of the gospel. Why do you think the great commission is to go into all the world and preach the gospel. God uses the gospel to save.
If someone living in the Amazon Jungle, (what’s left of it), can believe, having never heard the gospel, then why send missionaries out. SELF CONDEMNED? HOW?
Whosoever shall believe are those He has chosen to believe, it is the work of God that you believe.
To be saved we have to have a believing heart.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The bible says it is God that does that work.

Proverbs 16:1  The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

You isolate verses, not seeming to realize there are companion verses to explain them.
The commandment to believe is like the commandment to circumcise our heart. To have a believing heart is to have a circumcised heart.

Deuteronomy 10:16  Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

You are no more capable of performing open heart surgery on yourself then you are capable of believing with all your heart. It is God that circumcises our heart, God gives us a new heart.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

The awful problem with teaching salvation is based on ‘your believing’ is so many rest upon that. “I believe in Jesus. I believe He is the savior. I want to be saved, I don’t want to go to hell. So now I am saved.”

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I have yet to hear a good SCRIPTURAL answer as to how a baby can believe.
Are they all self condemned too?

Romans 9:11.  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

An excellent verse ollie.
Many years ago when I did believe my salvation was based on my freewill decision our church (SBC) had invited an evangelist to speak.
He is excellent, even though he preaches freewill, his name is Richard Green.
He was stressing the importance of reading the scripture and suggested that if you were having difficulties reading it then you should read the same chapter every day for a year then go to the next. He suggested reading Romans, every time he came after that he suggested a shorter book. I don’t know if Romans was a slip of the tongue, or if he decided it was too long.
I was inspired to add a new program into my studies. I was already reading from the NT in the morning and the OT at bed time with Psalms or Proverbs in-between. I decided to read one chapter of Romans every day for a week, unless I had strong questions I went to the next chapter the next week. It took me three or four weeks to get past chapter 9. It just didn’t fit into the freewill message.
I was torn for a few years as to what the gospel was. Fortunately I was working in a profession where I was able to hear many different preachers and teachers. I am a photographer, I was working for a company that took pictures for church directories.
I also traveled, once I had to attend church out of town. I was able to purchase a book of sermons by Spurgeon for $2.50. The very first sermon I read immediately cemented my belief in election.
It had probably been 5 years since that bible exercise in Romans so I can understand how difficult it is to see Gods plan.
Reading Romans 9 I don’t see how it is possible to believe in the freewill salvation plan.
God chose to save Jacob to show us His salvation plan is one of election.

Romans 9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Romans 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Romans 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

It is not by our will, it is entirely Gods mercy.
All we can do is throw ourselves on the mercy of God.

Luke 18:13  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

We don't have the right to make God obligated to save us.

"All we can do is throw ourselves on the mercy of God."

Is "all we can do" our choice or is it predetermined who "throws themselves on the mercy of God"?


"We don't have the right to make God obligated to save us."

Is God obligated to save us if we come to follow Christ? It is His purpose that elects one. It is His word that calls "whosoever will" to Christ. He promises salvation to eternal life in His son Jesus Christ.

I posted Romans 9:11 to examplify that man has done neither good nor evil before being born. The conclusion being that inherited sin is non existent and our sins come from our own doings not from someone else. Also showing that the purpose of God is not of works since the unborn have not done any yet, but that of the call of God. Scripture tells us it is His word that calls. See Ezekiel 18 for further comments on who commits sin and if it is inherited or not.

Ollie

Sorry I took so long to get back to you Ollie, I spaced it.
There is no guarantee that if you throw yourself on the mercy of God you will be saved.
God also saves some that have never thrown themselves on his mercy, a baby would be a good example.
I am only saying that if you are serious about wanting to be saved you do everything you can to show God you are serious.
Repent, read the scripture, get on your knees and plead to God for mercy.

Jonah 3:8  But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jonah 3:9  Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 3:10  And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
 
If true repentance is in our heart, and if we truly seek Him with all our heart, then He has lead us there.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
 
ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me.

We do not inherit sin. We inherit a heart that will sin.

Jeremiah 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

The bible says we begin our life of sin as soon as we are born, not before.
We are estranged from God as soon as we are born.

Psalms 58:2  Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth.
Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Isaiah 48:8  Yea, thou heardest not; yea, thou knewest not; yea, from that time that thine ear was not opened: for I knew that thou wouldest deal very treacherously, and wast called a transgressor from the womb.

That is why babies need a savior too.
The freewill gospel doesn’t cover babies.
The heart represents the soul. Because of Adams sin every one of us is spiritually dead.

Romans 5:17  For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Romans 5:19  For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We have a physical body and we have a spiritual body. When the Lord returns the dead will be resurrected with a new, glorified, physical body.

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When we are saved God gives us a new, glorified, spiritual body. He gives us a new spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

We can’t do this. It is an act of creation. The work of the creator.
The only way we can have a new spiritual body is if our sins have been washed clean. To repeat:

Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

People don’t seem to really understand what Jesus did. He literally paid the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for every sin I ever have or ever will commit. This began at the garden of Gethsemane.

Matthew 12:40  For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Let’s count backwards.
Sunday    Day 1
Sat. night   Night 1
Sat.        Day 2
Fri. night   Night 2
Friday      Day 3
Thurs. night   Night 3
Where was Jesus Thursday night?
In the garden of Gethsemane.
That is when He began suffering. He began to pay for the sins of those He came to save. He literally suffered the equivalency of an eternity in Hell for each sin. We see a key when it says he sweated as it were great drops of blood.

Luke 22:44  And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Our sins are washed clean by the blood of Christ. He was also in agony. It is often taught that Satan was tempting him at the garden. This is not scriptural or even possible, Satan had indwelled Judas.

Luke 22:3  Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

On the cross before He died He said, “it is finished.”

John 19:30  When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He still had to overcome physical death but He was finished paying for the sins of those He came to save. He paid the second death that is spoken of in Rev. 20. Then he overcame the death of the physical body when He was resurrected.
When we become saved we have a new spiritual body but we still have the same old corrupt physical body. The spiritual body no longer wants to sin, the physical body does. Now we have a war going on inside us.

Romans 7:22  For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23  But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Romans 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Romans 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

If we have been saved we should find in ourselves a honest and ongoing desire not to sin.  

1 John 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Left Coast:

By making that statement you are contradicting God Himself. It is GOD who guarantees that ALL who throw themselves on His mercy will receive mercy and shall be saved:

"Seek ye the LORD, while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near; Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: AND LET HIM RETURN UNTO THE LORD, AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON HIM; AND TO OUR GOD, FOR HE WILL ABUNDANTLY PARDON" (Isa. 55:6-7).

God also says immediately after that that His thoughts are not your thoughts, neither his ways your ways.  

Bringing the salvation of babies into this discussion is of little consequence, since Scripture does NOT reveal how God deals with the salvation of babies, or the mentally incompetent. Let us trust the God of all grace in these matters, but let us not presume that we know the answers.

However, one thing is very clear from Scripture, and if you want to contradict this truth or dispute it, your dispute is with the Lord God Almighty -- GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1 Tim. 2:4) because GOD IS NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE (2 Pet. 3:9).

Is Christ the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD?  Indeed He is:

"And we have seen AND DO TESTIFY that the Father sent the Son TO BE THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD" (1 Jn. 4:14).  Shame on those who deny this truth, and woe upon those who preach another Gospel!

Sower thank you for your answer;

That is right, seek him while you can. To truly repent requires a change in heart. God says He is the one that changes the heart.

Deuteronomy 30:6  And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Hebrews 10:16  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hebrews 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

HE DOES ABUNDANTLY PARDON.

That is right His thoughts and His ways are not what you can control. Freewill salvation controls God.
 
Proverbs 16:25  There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.  

It is of consequence. Mankind varies in capability from extreme mental incompetence to the most enlightened. Where do you draw the line?
THERE IS ONLY ONE SALVATION PLAN, by your statement you would have to have more than one.
The fact is Scripture DOES reveal how God deals with the salvation of babies. John the Baptist was saved while still in the womb.

Luke 1:41  And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luke 1:44  For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

And Jeremiah was also saved while still in the womb.

Jeremiah 1:5  Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

No decision making there.
The paralytic man came to Jesus to be healed of his paralysis. Instead Jesus forgave him of his sins. There was no believing Jesus was the savior.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

He received salvation but he didn’t ask for it or seek it. THE SAME SALVATION PLAN.
The only reason you have to come up with some other means for babies to be saved is because you have a salvation plan that is NOT for all mankind.
How can someone living in Tahiti in the year 300 make a freewill decision?
When did you start talking for God? Just because you don’t understand what these verses are saying you have no right to claim I am disputing with God -- What foolishness.
Your gospel hangs on these two words -- ALL and WORLD.
Two words that rarely mean what you want them to mean.
ALL is from the word ‘pas’, Strong’s number 3956.
Rarely is it ‘all inclusive’.

Mt 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <pas> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mr 1:5  And there went out unto him all <pas> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <pas> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too? John would have been a very busy guy.
 
Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all <pas> the world should be taxed.
Lu 2:3  And all <pas> went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Was ALL the world taxed? Every single person went to be taxed? How did the Native Americans do that?

John 6:37  All <pas> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s an interesting one, --- ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Does this fit your definition of ALL.

Ac 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all <pas> that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is that right? He healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil?

Ac 10:43  To him give all <pas> the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever <pas> believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

That is one of those verses you Arminians like. Lets follow through.

Ac 10:44  While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all <pas> them which heard the word.

Hmmmm, The Holy Ghost fell on them…

Ac 10:45  And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So they all made a freewill decision all at once….RIGHT?
How about the 3,000 of Acts 2:41? Was this an instantaneous ‘freewill’ decision? How about the 5,000 of Acts 4:4?

Is it freewill decisions that add to the church?

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Ac 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ordained--tasso--AKA appointed:

AV-appoint 3, ordain 2, set 1, determine 1, addict 1; 8

1) to put in order, to station
1a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
1a1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one
1b) to appoint, ordain, order
1b1) to appoint on one’s own responsibility or authority
1b2) to appoint mutually, i.e. agree upon

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Mt 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <pas> sickness and all manner of <pas>  disease among the people.

This is an excellent and acceptable interpretation for the verses you point to.
GOD WILL HAVE ALL MANNER OF <PAS> MEN TO BE SAVED
The word world represents the unsaved. It is not being used as a statistical number of people it represents moral quality of man.

1 John 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
James 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

If world represents man as you wish to claim, then you are not to love man.
DID EVERYONE IN THE WORLD FOLLOW JESUS?

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

If He wanted ALL to be saved why did Jesus speak in parables?

Mark 4:11  And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mark 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

You want to add works to Gods salvation plan. And so you have a God that is not fair or righteous or just.
You have a salvation plan you have to control. So to judge anyone that can not possibly know about God is to judge them for something they could not control. So the judgment would be unfair.

Even the devil has to ask permission. The devil is fooled and thinks he can win, but God uses satan's darkness in contrast to His own light.
Examine and meditate on Romans 9:22. What masterpiece painting can be done if it is all white? It is the darkness and black that gives definition to the light and glory of God. Even the greatest crime of darkness ever done, crucifying the innocent Jesus, was used to good for those Sons revealed, that love God and respond to the His call. The are revealed against that backdrop of darkness as lights shining in the night. The darkness gives definition and the colors character to the masterpiece of God's creation. Indeed, God created Lucifer and knew by His foreknowledge of the evil that would come of it. To deny His foreknowledge of these things is folly, and because He created evil doesn't mean that He does evil anymore than Him creating man makes Him a liar. God does not lie and does not do evil. He makes all things, including evil, work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose - again, God's perspective that we are to respect.
We examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith and work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
There is no need to translate Isaiah 45:7 into something that is not plain. God knows how creation works and the plan He has in creating and using evil so that He could reveal His glory and the Sons of God could be fashioned and revealed is working. People always ask why did God allow evil....well, Romans 9:22 answers the question., and He will only suffer its existence until all the Sons of God have been revealed and then it will be done away with forever - thrown into the lake of fire with death. I read that there will be no darkness after satan and death are gone forever.

Romans 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Ro 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Co 13:5  Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
2Co 7:15  And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.