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Calvinism is a wonderful doctrine!!! Anyway...I want to get a Calvinism/Arminianism debate going, because it'll be fun

Calvinism:
1. Total Depravity:
Man is totally deprave and incapable od coming to God on His own
2. Unconditional Election:
God in His Sovereign grace decided before the creation of the world who would come to HIm...not just foreknowlendge, but actual election
3. Limited Atonement:
Christ died for the sins of only the elect.
4. Irrestistable Grace:
You can't resist God's calling to you if you are elcet. Neither can you come without God's drawing
5. Preservation of the Saints:
Eternal security.

Now I will supply a passage or 2 of Biblical back-up (although there are plenty more) and sometimes (when I think it nessesary) a logical proof for each element.

1. Biblical Back up:
Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
John 14:6 "I am the way the truth and light no man comes to the Father but by me."
Logical back up: Adam and Eve sinned and were banished form Eden because of it.  When their children were born, they had no opportunity to commit a sin yet, but they were not allowed to go back in the garden.  Why is this? Because they were totally deprave....they could not return to God.  The only thing that separates us from God is sin. thus they were separted from God because of sin... even though they are only babies.

2.Biblical back up:
Ephesians 1:2-12
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.  11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory"
Logical Back-up:
alright...that passage says it all...I don't feel like I need to explain it anymore. Just let me say thatthe passage says pretty specifically Chosen...NOT FOREKNEW...
3.Biblical back-up
John15:13
"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends"
Matthew 20:28
"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to
serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."
Logical Back-up:
Well note that the verses say MANY and for His FRIENDS first of all... Then let's dive into a logical exploration of limited atonement!
The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:
All the sins of all men.
All the sins of some men, or
Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:
That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?
You answer, "Because of unbelief."
I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"
4. Biblical back-up:
 John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
Logical proof:
Does it really need one? If it does I'll give it later.
5.Biblical proof.
John6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Ahhh...I've got to go now...I'll finish preservation later!

Alright...So you can't loose your salvation, because that would imply that CHrist's sacrifice was not enough to satisfy the penalty for all your sins past, present, and future,

Another verse..
Romans 8:38-39
"For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers neither hieghth nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of GOd that isin Christ Jesus our Lord."

ps...all the verse and passages a quoted are NIV

Whosoever will, come..

Jesus told the parable of the great feast, where the invited guests would not come, so the host sent for the lame, the troubled, the sick...

God is not willing that any should perish..

That all they should believe a lie, that received not the love of the truth...

In effect, those who say that God does the repenting for us, and those who say it's a "free choice", both equally assert the importance of witnessing to the lost. So there's not much practical difference between the two views.

I for one, however, believe that God knows how to make people with a "free will". Everyone gets a chance to recieve Him. Unbelief, forever rejecting the Son, is of course the only "unforgivable sin" Jesus could have been talking about.

Since when do I myself get credit for receiving a gift anyway? Real life example, someone I know sent back a birthday gift received in the mail because she didn't want anything from that giver. If she receives it and cashes it, then how can anyone say she earned it?! (Maybe in Ivory Tower Academics, so?)

Whosoever will, come..
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me
draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus told the parable of the great feast, where the invited guests would not come, so the host sent for the lame, the troubled, the sick...

I'm glad you brought that parable up.  Matthew 22:14, the concluding verse, makes an interesting statement...it reads, "For many are invited, but few are chosen"  another translation states, "For many are invited, bur few are enabled" It's interesting to think about...many are invited, but few arechosen... I'll explain my interpretation of it in a little bit, first I want to hear yours.

God is not willing that any should perish..
Of course He isn't, but He knows that it isn't possible for everyone to accept His son...That's why He for some reason chose us to predestine as sons (and daughters) ;)

That all they should believe a lie, that received not the love of the truth...
I am confused as to what you are trying to point out here...

I for one, however, believe that God knows how to make people with a "free will".

Course God knows how to make people with a free will....

Everyone gets a chance to recieve Him.
Ahh...but only those who are elect CAN recieve Him...

Unbelief, forever rejecting the Son, is of course the only "unforgivable sin" Jesus could have been talking about.
I am confused as to what you are getting at here...is this inresponse to Limited Atonement? If so can you clarify your position on it?

 ;D  So, you worship Calvin do you?

Instead of zeroing in on what you're teaching, you should examine the effects of your teaching.

Essentially if all that were true, that would give you an excuse not to love your neighbor.  

Aha!  The true reason for the existence of fancy doctrines is to weasil out of doing what God really wants.  Love God, Love Your neighbor.  all the fancy doctrines in the world with men's names on them essentially weasily you out of doing what god wants.  Fine.  Worship man if you wish but when God says he never knew you later in life, you'll know why.

Calvin was a man of God, but his teachings have many holes in them.

Sometimes the way Protestants refer to Calvin is almost as bad as the way Catholics refer to the Pope.

 So, you worship Calvin do you?
No, I don't. ;D I worship God.
Essentially if all that were true, that would give you an excuse not to love your neighbor.  
Don't see where you get that.
Aha!  The true reason for the existence of fancy doctrines is to weasil out of doing what God really wants.  Love God, Love Your neighbor.  all the fancy doctrines in the world with men's names on them essentially weasily you out of doing what god wants.  Fine.  Worship man if you wish but when God says he never knew you later in life, you'll know why.
Wow...um...I DONT Worship man....God is my focus and main priority...this is a debate thread and I enjoy dicussing Calvinism and Amrinianism...so I started this thread...Please don't ever question my salvation, unless you actually know me
Calvin was a man of God, but his teachings have many holes in them.
They're all BIblical and that's the important thing.
Sometimes the way Protestants refer to Calvin is almost as bad as the way Catholics refer to the Pope.
Ah...but the way the refer to Arminius is even worse ;)

 ;D  Calvin's doctrine as the way it is interpreted these days boils down to people in two categories, Elect vs. Non-elect.  All you really have to do is find a way to classify your neighbor to be a non-elect, and Wala!  You don't have to love him or her.  Woo hoo!   8)  Then you wont have to h elp them if they need help and you wont have to forgive them if they sin.  You wont even have to associate with them.  The supposed "elect" become an exclusive group of people that consider themselves to be superior.  Christs says, he who wants to be the greatest needs to be the least and Christ also was INCLUSIVE.  Christ didn't want to exclude any body  ooooh, not even sinners were excluded by Christ.  

Key signs of bad doctrines--Exclusivity and Superiority.  You'll note these are the key things that the Pharasees depended on to keep themselves in the top echolons of socieity.  The smart folks of the religions make up doctrines to put themselves in the same position the Pharasees were in.  Watch for them.  They give folks excuses not to do what God wants.  God wants SERVANTS and People that Love Their Neighbor.  Not folks that are "More righteous then thou" and "Superior to Thou" by their doctrines.   ;D

Peace   ;)

All you really have to do is find a way to classify your neighbor to be a non-elect, and Wala!  You don't have to love him or her.  Woo hoo!    Then you wont have to h elp them if they need help and you wont have to forgive them if they sin.  You wont even have to associate with them.  The supposed "elect" become an exclusive group of people that consider themselves to be superior.  Christs says, he who wants to be the greatest needs to be the least and Christ also was INCLUSIVE.  Christ didn't want to exclude any body  ooooh, not even sinners were excluded by Christ.  

No...We still have to love everyone, wether they are elect or not...the idea that you don't have to love everyone isn't Calvinism...might be hyperCalvinism though..hyperClavinism= BAD....and it isn't humanly possible to know if someone is elect or not prior to their slavation anyway...and you can't know if someone will be saved in the future or not...

I'm very confused as to where you got your ideas about Calvinism...please explain...

Ten Effects of Believing in the Five Points of Calvinism
April 20, 2002
These ten points are my personal testimony to the effects of believing in the five points of Calvinism. I have just completed teaching a seminar on this topic and was asked by the class members to post these reflections so they could have access to them. I am happy to do so. They, of course, assume the content of the course, which is available on tape from Desiring God Ministries, but I will put them here for wider use in the hope that they might stir others to search, Berean-like, to see if the Bible teaches what I call "Calvinism."
1. These truths make me stand in awe of God and lead me into the depth of true God-centered worship.
I recall the time I first saw, while teaching Ephesians at Bethel College in the late '70's, the threefold statement of the goal of all God's work, namely, "to the praise of the glory of his grace" (Ephesians 1:6, 12, 14).
It has led me to see that we cannot enrich God and that therefore his glory shines most brightly not when we try to meet his needs but when we are satisfied in him as the essence of our deeds. "From him and through him and to him are all things. To him the glory forever" (Romans 11:36). Worship becomes an end in itself.
It has made me feel how low and inadequate are my affections, so that the Psalms of longing come alive and make worship intense.
2. These truths help protect me from trifling with divine things.
One of the curses of our culture is banality, cuteness, cleverness. Television is the main sustainer of our addiction to superficiality and triviality.
God is swept into this. Hence the trifling with divine things.
Earnestness is not excessive in our day. It might have been once. And, yes, there are imbalances in certain people today who don't seem to be able to relax and talk about the weather.
Robertson Nicole said of Spurgeon, "Evangelism of the humorous type [we might say, church growth of the marketing type] may attract multitudes, but it lays the soul in ashes and destroys the very germs of religion. Mr. Spurgeon is often thought by those who do not know his sermons to have been a humorous preacher. As a matter of fact there was no preacher whose tone was more uniformly earnest, reverent and solemn" (Quoted in The Supremacy of God in Preaching, p. 57).
3. These truths make me marvel at my own salvation.
After laying out the great, God-wrought salvation in Ephesians 1, Paul prays, in the last part of that chapter, that the effect of that theology will be the enlightenment of our hearts so that we marvel at our hope, and at the riches of the glory of our inheritance, and at the power of God at work in us – that is, the power to raise the dead.
Every ground of boasting is removed. Brokenhearted joy and gratitude abound.
The piety of Jonathan Edwards begins to grow. When God has given us a taste of his own majesty and our own wickedness, then the Christian life becomes a thing very different than conventional piety. Edwards describes it beautifully when he says,
The desires of the saints, however earnest, are humble desires: their hope is a humble hope, and their joy, even when it is unspeakable, and full of glory, is humble, brokenhearted joy, and leaves the Christian more poor in spirit, and more like a little child, and more disposed to a universal lowliness of behavior (Religious Affections, New Haven: Yale University Press, 1959, pp. 339f).
4. These truths make me alert to man-centered substitutes that pose as good news.
In my book, The Pleasures of God (2000), pp. 144-145, I show that in the 18th century in New England the slide from the sovereignty of God led to Arminianism and thence to universalism and thence to Unitarianism. The same thing happened in England in the 19thcentury after Spurgeon.
Iain Murray's Jonathan Edwards: A New Biography (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 1987), p. 454, documents the same thing: "Calvinistic convictions waned in North America. In the progress of the decline which Edwards had rightly anticipated, those Congregational churches of New England which had embraced Arminianism after the Great Awakening gradually moved into Unitarianism and universalism, led by Charles Chauncy."
You can also read in J. I. Packer's Quest for Godliness (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books, 1990), p. 160, how Richard Baxter forsook these teachings and how the following generations reaped a grim harvest in the Baxter church in Kidderminster.
These doctrines are a bulwark against man-centered teachings in many forms that gradually corrupt the church and make her weak from the inside, all the while looking strong or popular.
1 Timothy 3:15, "The church of the living God [is] the pillar and bulwark of the truth."
5. These truths make me groan over the indescribable disease of our secular, God-belittling culture.
I can hardly read the newspaper or look at a TV ad or a billboard without feeling the burden that God is missing.
When God is the main reality in the universe and is treated as a non-reality, I tremble at the wrath that is being stored up. I am able to be shocked. So many Christians are sedated with the same drug as the world. But these teachings are a great antidote.
And I pray for awakening and revival.
And I try to preach to create a people that are so God-saturated that they will show and tell God everywhere and all the time.
We exist to reassert the reality of God and the supremacy of God in all of life.
6. These truths make me confident that the work which God planned and began, he will finish – both globally and personally.
This is the point of Romans 8:28-39.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died- more than that, who was raised- who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
7. These truths make me see everything in the light of God's sovereign purposes – that from him and through him and to him are all things, to him be glory forever and ever.
All of life relates to God. There's no compartment where he is not all-important and the one who gives meaning to everything. 1 Corinthians 10:31.
Seeing God's sovereign purpose worked out in Scripture, and hearing Paul say that "he accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11) makes me see the world this way.
8. These truths make me hopeful that God has the will, the right, and the power to answer prayer that people be changed.
The warrant for prayer is that God may break in and change things – including the human heart. He can turn the will around. "Hallowed be thy name" means: cause people to hallow your name. "May your word run and be glorified" means: cause hearts to be opened to the gospel.
We should take the New Covenant promises and plead with God to bring them to pass in our children and in our neighbors and among all the mission fields of the world.
"God, take out of their flesh the heart of stone and give him a new heart of flesh" (Ezekiel 11:19).
"Lord, circumcise their hearts so that they love you" (Deuteronomy 30:6).
"Father, put your spirit within them and cause them to walk in Your statutes" (Ezekiel 36:27).
"Lord, grant them repentance and the knowledge of the truth that they may escape from the snare of the devil" (2 Timothy 2:25-26).
"Father, open their hearts so that they believe the gospel" (Acts 16:14).
9. These truths reminds me that evangelism is absolutely essential for people to come to Christ and be saved, and that there is great hope for success in leading people to faith, but that conversion is not finally dependent on me or limited by the hardness of the unbeliever.
So it gives hope to evangelism, especially in the hard places and among the hard peoples.
John 10:16, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold, I must bring them also. They will heed my voice."
It is God's work. Throw yourself into it with abandon.
10. These truths make me sure that God will triumph in the end.
Isaiah 46:9-10, "I am God and there is no other. I am God and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, "My counsel shall stand that I will accomplish all my purpose'"
Putting them altogether: God gets the glory and we get the joy.


From:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/doctrines_grace/ten_effects.html

Amen, "Hands and Feet of Jesus"!  I found some very inspiring testimonies here (http://www.christian-truth.org/predestination/testimony.html) and here (http://www.dtl.org/calvinism/e-mails/testimonies.htm) of those who've come to believe in God's sovereign grace.  It's so comforting knowing that my salvation rests completely with God.  If it depended on me at all, I'd be going to Hell.

Romans 9:15-16 (NIV)

May God richly bless you,

Chuck

TULIP is a pretty flower but a bad doctrine.

It looks like Candace and I are in 100% agreement on this one.

A topic i love to talk about... The Word of God.   Many have labled me a Calvinist i have not studied his writings. 

 I haven't been posting for a while i will try and make sense of the use of the  quotes to answer you...


I am not versed in Calvinism   

Deu 24:16  The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

2Ki 14:5  And it came to pass, as soon as the kingdom was confirmed in his hand, that he slew his servants which had slain the king his father.  
2Ki 14:6  But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

In light of t he scriptures above which state  'Death for our own sin"  Calvinism/Arminianism both teach sin was brought in via Adam

Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



Amen and amen He is just ....

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.  
Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.  
Rom 9:17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 Rom 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?


Man seems to have a hard time accepting Gods sovereignty. He is Just .What ever God does is Godly . We try to keep  Him in our views of Godliness and our views of justice.

Most often a thread on this subject is pelted with verbal stones .  A good discussion of scripture with Christian views that may be a bit different is a really good thing...

No man is worthy of salvation. We all deserve damnation. Who among us is with out sin?

I use the  alternating colors only because it is easier on my eyes...

 >:(God wants everyone to come to him! He doesn't elect people to be saved. Hands, your logic is flawed!
Read John 3:16, God loves everyone.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Where in John 3 16  are the words    "God loves everyone"?

Eph 1:2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.  

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

That is an easy one that anyone can see, "For God so loved the world". When scripture uses the word "world" here it uses it in the sense of the inhabitants thereof.

Thanks for your replies, but they are not really addressing the issue. God's sovereignty is not being contested, nor is election or salvation by grace. The issue is reconciling God's criteria for guilt and punishment with the conclusions of Calvinism.

Knowing that all men are dead in Adam and thus sin (Total depravity and are unable to seek or call upon God due to their inherited Adamic nature, then they are effectively damned because of something that could not help, like a baby being damned due to her mother being a heroin addict. But God many times declares that while we may suffer the effects of our ancestors decisions, as in the aforementioned example, He does not actually punish us for them. But if we sin ultimately due to something we were not responsible for, and cannot choose the light,  then it seems the non-elect are ultimately condemned because of Adam's sin.   

Amen and thank you

Reb, all that is saying is that, God knows who is going to be saved. Example: God knows what I am going to eat tomorrow for supper, but I am still free to choose.
I choosed to accept Jesus but can still reject but never will.  ;)

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:6  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.  

Joh 17:7  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.  

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10  And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.  



And in the above verses the word ' world' has the same meaning....

How does a sinfull person choose God?  To Choose God is not sinfull and what is the bibical discription of mans heart?

 Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Is man, in the fallen state , even looking for God?

Daved James    This is the name my husband wanted for our son    :)   I wanted Jr and won   ;D

Background on me  i am 60 raised in penticostal church Dad was a A of G pastor for ever  :)   I have spent most of my life excepting Arminsm (SP) as TRUTH. 

I am but a sinfull creature my will is one of sin, Adam and Eve proved this. How can my sinfull nature,  sinfullness is the nature of man, choose someting that is not sinfull. 

He pulls from the clay  He sets our feet on the Rock.  He quickens.  we sin   

Easy, the sinful person asks God to come into their life, God does and works on this person. Unfortunatly so does satan.

Amen, David!



Yes, Jesus is at the door of all men's hearts knocking. It is up to each person whether they will listen or choose to ignore that calling.

Mat 11:16  But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 11:17  And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.


Rom 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Amen brother Roger  ;D

To ask God into ones life is not a sinfull request. Man in his unsaved state is sinfull. Sinfull man can not do someting Godly. My salvation does not depend on me but on Jesus Christ.  He paid the price i can glory in nothing but the Cross.    

Gal 6:14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

My salvation is of HIM not of my choosing, not via my effort, not because i was raised in a Christian home, not because i prayed Lord Jesus come into my heart.... But because HE first loved me  HIS blood HIS death.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:


2Th 2:13  But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:  

The one knocking on the door is doing the  looking not the person inside.

God heardens the heart

 God is in control i am not....

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.  Rom 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion

When Adam sinned he hid from GOD he was not looking for salvation but hiding from it. God kept after him...

Thanks for the exchange guys it is getting late ...  see ya in afew days    :)

To ask God into ones life is in fact a sinful request for if man was not sinful he would not need to ask God into his life. This is why Jesus told us to ask.

Mat 7:7  Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8  For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Salvation does depend fully on Jesus Christ for we cannot achieve salvation on our own. It is His righteousness, His shed blood. He still wants us to ask Him into our lives. He wants only those that willingly worship Him. To say that we don't need to ask Him into our lives would be to say that we have no choice and are being forced to worship Him.

God draws everyone to him. Why would he choose only some sinners?

Hello everyone, I just want to add my 2cents  :D

First of all I believe that God created man to live eternally and to worship and honor and praise Him only. Adam's fall ruined it for all mankind. God already knew that this would happen. He is Omniscient, and Omnipresent so He knows all things and the end from the beginning. He made a way for the salvation of mankind, that Way is through His Son Jesus it is for all mankind not just for some. God is Love, Infinite, Undefiled, love and He is NO respecter of man. He chose all mankind, every human being is a tri-part being, he is a spirit who lives in a body and has a soul. Now, God's Holy Spirit calls each and every human being to Him, however it is up to the individual person to listen to  and hear that call. The Holy Spirit is a gentleman and He will not impose on anyone anything they don want to do.

God loves all mankind, He created us. He does not want not even one of us to go to be lost or to choose satan. Mankind has freedom of choice, they can decide whether they will listen to that call or not.

Salvation is for all  who chooses Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. God did not set a limit on how many people shall be saved. He calls all of us. It is up to us to accept or reject that call. That is why if we reject that call we shall be unforgiven.

Does anyone honestly think that God would want some of His creation to sereve satan??
NO!!!!
God desires all men to be saved!

 Mt 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

That is why He is patient with us, that is why He gives us grace everyday.
That is why He wants the Gospel to be preached to everyone.

 Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

AMEN!

Brothers and Sisters,

There's always been a lot of confusion on this topic, but the answers are pretty simple.

ALMIGHTY GOD knew all in Eternity past, including the word I am typing right now. So, GOD has a "Foreknowledge" of all things. So, how confused would you be if someone said that I was "Predestined" to type the last sentence instead of saying that GOD knew what it would be a million years ago?

The above does not suggest that GOD commanded me to type a particular sentence, nor was I born as a robot programmed in advance. There are obviously things that can be added to this discussion that make it much more complex, but we can boil it down to simple terms and understand it. GOD tells us in the Holy Bible that HE doesn't wish any men to perish, rather that they would accept the free GIFT of Salvation. The Perfect Sacrifice of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS was for all mankind, and the BIBLE tells us just that. However, many will reject Salvation and JESUS CHRIST.

ALMIGHTY GOD knew which people would or would not accept JESUS CHRIST before the foundation of the world. This doesn't mean that GOD goes down a line of people and says, "You can accept JESUS, You can't accept JESUS". GOD left that for us to decide, but the GIFT is extended to all who will accept it.

There are many things in the Holy Bible that can make this a lengthy and difficult study if one wants to look at details, certain people, and certain times. I'll just mention a few factors that always enter into the study and discussion:  1) Israel distinct from the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, 2) Chosen, 3) Elect, 4) Foreordained, 5) Called, 6) Predestined.

I'll just give a few examples that make the discussion complex for study. However, I want to make it plain that the ultimate question is, "Did JESUS CHRIST die on the CROSS for all mankind, AND will any man or woman expressing true faith in JESUS CHRIST be rejected? First - JESUS CHRIST DID die on the Cross for all mankind. Second - NO man or woman expressing true faith in JESUS CHRIST will be rejected.

Did GOD specifically choose Moses, Peter, Paul, and Judas for a specific purpose? YES, GOD most certainly did.

Did GOD make a mistake in choosing Judas? NO, HE most certainly did NOT.

Did GOD know that Judas would betray HIM and when? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command Judas betray HIM? NO!

Did GOD know that Peter would deny HIM three times before HIS Crucifixion? YES, HE knew, and HE told Peter before he did it, but Peter did it anyway. Did GOD make or command Peter deny HIM? NO!

David was "A man after GOD'S Own Heart", and David would be and was the King of Israel. Did GOD know that David would commit adultery? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command David to commit adultery? NO - Most certainly NOT!

GOD chose Paul to become the Apostle to the Gentiles. Did GOD know that Paul had rejected HIM? Did GOD know that Paul had made a career out of hunting, persecuting, and killing Christians? YES, HE did. Did GOD make or command Paul to kill Christians? NO - Most certainly NOT!

Great hosts of people saw JESUS CHRIST perform miracles, signs, and wonders. Could some of the people watching think they were watching the power of the devil instead of GOD? YES, some did. Did GOD make them believe one way or the other? NO!

At the time of Paul's conversion, could he have believed the devil was dealing with him instead of GOD? YES - but Paul believed it was GOD. Did GOD make Paul believe one way or the other? NO!


I would hope that the examples will help everyone understand this. Let's talk a little bit about a modern example involving you if you are a Christian. If you are a Christian, you have the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD living in your heart. Have you ever felt a desire in your heart that you thought was from GOD to do something? If you've been a Christian very long, I'm sure that you have. As an example, have you ever felt a conviction that something is wrong and you don't want to do it? On the other side of the coin, have you ever felt a desire to do something good? I'm sure that the answer to both of these questions is yes. Could you have done the opposite of what you felt convicted to do? YES.

Think about the above paragraph again before you answer these questions for yourself:

1 - Has GOD called you to do various things in your life? Maybe you dismissed them as not coming from GOD, or maybe you decided not to do them whether they came from GOD or not. Isn't the answer to this question, "YES"?

2 - Can GOD communicate with you in various ways? If you believe that the Bible is GOD'S WORD, you should know that GOD communicates with you every time you hear, read, or study GOD'S WORD. All Christians receive guidance and direction from GOD'S WORD, but that doesn't mean that they always follow it. GOD could absolutely force you to do HIS Will, but does HE? NO. Don't you also communicate with GOD when you pray? YES.

Brothers and Sisters, if you are a Christian, you have a personal relationship with GOD and can come before HIS Throne of Grace in prayer 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. GOD extends HIS Love, Grace, and spiritual riches to us continually, but isn't it up to us how much of HIS riches we will accept? Our relationship with GOD can be anywhere from shallow to deep and weak to mature. Isn't this up to us? There are many things that GOD could make us do, but HE doesn't. As an example, does HE make us study HIS WORD? NO, but we should know that HE wants us to study HIS WORD.

Have you ever witnessed to someone and heard them say that GOD won't take them because they've done "this, this, and this" wrong in their lives? I'm sure that you have, but did they make a true statement? NO, this statement is false. JESUS CHRIST won't reject anyone who wants HIM as their LORD and SAVIOUR. If one of your friends knows that you're a Christian and they ask you to tell them about JESUS, is there a book somewhere that you need to check first to see if they can or can't have JESUS CHRIST as their SAVIOUR? NO - of course NOT! Do you need to get a list of sins they have committed first, check those sins off on a list, and see if they're eligible for Salvation or NOT first? NO - of course NOT! NOW, we're back to talking about common sense and the simple GOOD NEWS of Salvation, JESUS CHRIST and the CROSS. There is NO eligibility list, NO disqualifiers, and everyone is WELCOME!

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

The view of God as all loving (as man sees loving) is a nice one.

God distroyed most of His creation.

Gen 7:21  And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:


Gods Word tell us of the killing of the first born of Egypt.

Exo 4:23  And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

Gods Word tell us of the sending of the serpents to the wilderness.

Num 21:6  And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

The Word speaks of much killing and damnation.

Deu 3:2  And the LORD said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
Deu 3:6  And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
 Is Gods Word just as much as :
Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


I remember many Sunday school lessons about wars death How many were drowned in the Red Sea? The above is just a few scriptures that come to mind.

I have a hard time trying to understand why so many folks who believe Israelies are the chosen people of God do not see His own, the Christians, as chosen.

Think on this a minute, Reba before you answer. Why are Christians God's chosen people?

Hello Sister Reba,

The average person doesn't have a clue about the horrible and RIGHTEOUS WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD. Some Christians have a clue because of accounts in the Old Testament, but most of them don't understand it. I'll give you an example, but I first want to boldly state that GOD is the CREATOR, and HE has every right to demand obedience. HE also has every right to put to death anyone who disobeys HIM. Bluntly, GOD does as HE pleases in Heaven and on Earth, and HE has every right to do so.

ALMIGHTY GOD doesn't need to ask anyone permission to do a single thing, and HE doesn't need to explain HIS actions - but HE does in many cases. You mentioned Old Testament wars, and I thought you might mention GOD ordering slaughters - including babies and children. BUT, you didn't take it this far, so I will. Evil was slaughtered, but many people would argue the babies and children weren't evil and were killed anyway. They're RIGHT, and the babies and children went to GOD and never did become evil. They probably would have gone the way of their parents and become evil, but GOD kept them for HIMSELF through physical death.

The GREAT FLOOD killed every living thing in the world except what GOD specifically Saved, but this is NOTHING compared to the WRATH of GOD yet to come. The terror and horror of all of the wars combined are NOTHING compared to what is YET to come. Most of the world has disobeyed and rejected ALMIGHTY GOD - THE CREATOR! Surely, people of average intelligence should know that GOD'S patience will run out, and HE will eventually pour out RIGHTEOUS WRATH! That is going to happen, and the lake of fire will be filled with people being punished for Eternity. Everything GOD told us in the BIBLE is REAL, and everything GOD Promised to do will be DONE! The rivers of human blood at the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST will be quite real and most of the population of the earth will die. WHY? - They disobeyed and rejected GOD, and GOD told us what HE WOULD most certainly do thousands of years ago. GOD told us that the greatest armies in human history will come against Israel. One of those armies is 200 million. JESUS CHRIST will defeat them in PERSON! In fact, this might happen soon.

In terms of Israel, this one is real simple. Israel is GOD'S Chosen people, and that will never change. JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF is the anointed KING of Israel, and that will never change. GOD Promised that HE would restore Israel, and HE WILL! JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF said that HE will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1,000 years, and HE most certainly WILL! GOD won't request permission from anyone because HE is already KING of KINGS - the CREATOR - ALMIGHTY GOD - and HE will NOT be denied! JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF will lead Heavenly Hosts into battle against enemies THAT WILL come against Israel! Israel will MOST OBVIOUSLY WIN because no power in the universe can defeat JESUS CHRIST - and that most certainly includes the devil. CHRIST will also lock the devil away for HIS 1,000 year rule and reign. Evil is dead and gone for later judgment. JESUS CHRIST will TAKE HIS THRONE as KING OF ISRAEL and restore Israel.

Sister Reba, these things will be done because GOD said they would. GOD makes promises and HE keeps them. It's really just as simple as this. There's another set of Promises GOD made to Christians, and those will also be kept perfectly. Here's another Promise from GOD that I didn't mention. Those who come against or try to harm Israel are damned by GOD. Those who help or assist Israel will be Blessed by GOD.

For a short summation:  WHY and HOW?  -  GOD said so, and HE CAN and WILL!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Because the Word says so:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Amen


Yes i did   

Deu 3:6  And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.


 What scriptures do you draw the above statement from?



yup  that is just how i see it  "What God specifically saved."

This is not an 'end times' thread so i Will  hold back   ;D

 

We agree   ;)  But i see Israel as the Church.

Remember  please on the political side i  believe the USA should defend the nation of Israel. On the spiritual side: The Jewish religion fits the biblical description of antichrist;

1Jn 2:22  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


Amen 

Reba go back and see what God wrote:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

US. Not some of of us, but us ANYONE WHO READS THESE WORDS

And who is us?

WE ARE!!! EVERY PERSON WHO HAS MADEA DECISION TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD AND SAVIOR. EVERYONE WHO CHOOSES TO ANSWER GOD'S CALL. IT IS GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE THAT EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD ANSWER HIS CALL.

GOD'S WORD IS THE LIVING WORD IT IS FOR EVERY HUMAN BEING THAT HAS EVER BEEN BORN AND HAS YET TO BE BORN. IT WAS NOT A PRIVATE INTERPRETATION JUST FOR THE DISCIPLES. IF IT WAS NOT INTENDED FOR ALL OF HUMANITY GOD WOULD NOT HAVE INSPIRED HIS WORD AND PROTECTED IT AND MADE IT TO BE INTERPRETED INTO ALMOST EVERY KNOWN LANGUAGE ON EARTH AND CAUSE IT TO BE AVAILABLE TO EVEN THE MOST DESTITUTE PERSON. AND YET BE THE NUMBER ONE BEST SELLER FOR CENTURIES.

DOUBTING GOD'S WORD IS DOUBTING GOD,

Joh 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

We agree there sister.


Nope.....

Antichrist will be of Roman descent.

Daniel 9:26 And after the sixty-two weeks [of years] shall the Anointed One be cut off or killed and shall have nothing [and no one] belonging to [and defending] Him. And the people of the [other] prince who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood; and even to the end there shall be war, and desolations are decreed.

Daniel's prophecies regarding future empires conclude with the Roman Empire. Daniel 9:26 indicates that the beast/antichrist will be of the same nationality as those who would destroy the temple in Jerusalem.  However, I'm relatively confident that if you were to have asked John what his revelation meant at the time, he would certainly have told you that this corrupt religious system that will dominate the world at the second coming of Christ will be based in Rome.

Revelation 13:11-18 Then I saw another beast rising up out of the land [itself]; he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke (roared) like a dragon. 12 He exerts all the power and right of control of the former beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell upon it to exalt and deify the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed, and to worship him. 13 He performs great signs (startling miracles), even making fire fall from the sky to the earth in men's sight. 14 And because of the signs (miracles) which he is allowed to perform in the presence of the [first] beast, he deceives those who inhabit the earth, commanding them to erect a statue (an image) in the likeness of the beast who was wounded by the [small] sword and still lived. 15 And he is permitted [also] to impart the breath of life into the beast's image, so that the statue of the beast could actually talk and cause to be put to death those who would not bow down and worship the image of the beast. 16 Also he compels all [alike], both small and great, both the rich and the poor, both free and slave, to be marked with an inscription [stamped] on their right hands or on their foreheads, 17 So that no one will have power to buy or sell unless he bears the stamp (mark, inscription), [that is] the name of the beast or the number of his name.18 Here is [room for] discernment [a call for the wisdom of interpretation]. Let anyone who has intelligence (penetration and insight enough) calculate the number of the beast, for it is a human number [the number of a certain man]; his number is 666.

You will find in verses 11-18 the false prophet. He's the religious leader and public relations guy who makes the people worship the first beast, aka antichrist. He's successful in deceiving the unbelieving world because he exercises some supernatural powers (from Satan) in support of the first beast; he also has an image of the first beast erected for worship purposes and makes it appear alive. This second beast controls commerce by marking people who will worship the first beast on their hand or forehead. Without the mark, tribulation inhabitants won't be able to do business. Here's that infamous "666" we hear so much about..

Now that didn't take a whole lot of thinking.

Let's take this a little further. Israel became prideful as God's "chosen people". They thought that they could do no wrong because they were after all God's chosen people. Being God's chosen people meant to them that no matter what they said or did they would continue as such. After all God made His promises to them. When Jesus came to them and told them that they were in fact wrong in many things and that He was/is the Messiah, they chose to disbelieve Him. (Rom 11:20) It was this choice to disbelieve that got them cut off at the roots. (John 5:39-47) To make them jealous and to attempt to open their eyes He turned to the Gentiles. When He did He also told the Gentiles not to boast of their being the "chosen ones" for those branches could just as easily be broken off and this is the reason that most Christians do not even mention anything about being chosen. Back to the Israelites, this does not mean that God has ignored the Israelites for He did make a promise to them and He has said that they will indeed return to Him and all that go up against them will fail, facing His wrath. Romans 11 clearly tells us of this. God has not cast away His people.

As can be clearly seen here, it is about mankind making choices between good and evil. Making a choice between good and evil is not a works. It is a thought that comes from the heart. As the Bible puts it we are to "choose you this day whom ye will serve". It is not about God being terrible or horrible to mankind by predetermining who will or who will not choose Him. It is about mankind making a choice and it is not a select few that He as given this power to choose but to all. God desires those that willing come to Him and worship Him in truth and in spirit, not robots that were preprogrammed to accept Him. (John 4:23)

God has warned all mankind what would happen to them if they chose to reject Him, they would face eternal torment. It is their choice that leads to their own destruction.

Sister Reba,

This might explain why you're so confused on this issue. Israel is NOT the Church. Every single member of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST are SAVED. Needless to say, the Anti-Christ is NOT saved, and this is how you've referred to Israel in previous posts. This is also a big point of confusion for you. GOD has promised to restore Israel, and HE will. However, GOD won't be doing anything for the Anti-Christ except ending his career. This might also explain your confusion about all Bible Prophecy being  fulfilled in 70 A.D. I posted an article for you under "Prophecy - Current Events" called "Has Bible Prophecy Been Fulfilled?" This might help you with part of the confusion, but distinguishing between Israel and the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST will be an absolute necessity first. You certainly don't have to take my word for this. Five minutes with just about any Bible Dictionary should make this completely clear.

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

It seems that most everyone here is a Arminian, and i certainly lean that way, and if so Calvinism must conclude i was s predistinated to be that way. But as yet i have not seen an answer from a Calvinist to my original query (above).

As for replacement theology, Rm 11 makes it clear to me that the "natural branches" - Israel after the flesh (what's left of them)- will yet be turned to the Lord, as He reverses the curse of blindness places upon them for their hardness of heart.  http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/israel-chosenorforgotten.html
 

Nope, just Christians. 1Cor 1:12,13   ;)

I said the Jewish religion fits the biblical description of antichrist.


Does the Jewish religion deny Jesus is the Christ?

This is off the topic of this thread. To be respectfull of the thread i will not continue off topic... :)

Reba, those two verses describes everyone who reject Jesus, not just Jews.

Nope try again, the Messianic Jews DO BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is the Messiah.

Sister Reba,

I've seen you quote the same Scriptures over and over again for years It's these same Scriptures and several dealing with land, and they've given you tunnel-vision. One doesn't understand the Bible by isolating a few Scriptures and quoting them out of context. It's far past time for you to do some Bible Study, and you will be terribly confused until you do.

You need to start with the basics:  Israel as opposed to the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. It really doesn't matter how you see things, rather how the Holy Bible clearly states things. Others have mistakenly tried to do it for you for years, and this is something you will simply have to do for yourself. You won't have a beginning understanding until you do.

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

Amen Daniel1212av!

You are completely correct. However, I do want to point out that none of us deserve the Grace and Rescue by ALMIGHTY GOD. All of us are completely unworthy. Not one of us has any Righteousness of our own. Our only Righteousness is in JESUS CHRIST.

Sadly, I think that the topic of Israel for some people involves much more than just what the Bible states and teaches. I'm not talking about you, so please don't think this. Some people are blinded by race, ethnic, and religious hatred to the extent that they also would want to wipe Israel off the face of the map. They can't stand to hear about the Promises GOD has made to Israel. Instead, we should all simply give thanks to GOD and know that NOT ONE of us is worthy.

Love In Christ,
Tom


   

Amen and amen!

Add another AMEN and AMEN!!

Actually, I'm a Calvinist.  And a Covenant Theologian.  *Ducks*   ;D Actually, I'm stirring up trouble, and should probably be reprimanded...but then again, I've not slept much since Chloe Grace was born and should be graciously forgiven!   ;D  I'll post details of our new baby where it fits better.

Seriously speaking...I am more of a Calvinist than an Armenian (sorry Roger!), with one exception: I can't find a scripture that says God chose to send anyone to Hell.  It DOES say He chose some to salvation...but also that He loves the WORLD, died for the WORLD, and calls ALL men EVERYWHERE unto repentance.  Here my brothers, we have a mystery we may need to wait until eternity to understand.   :)

As for Covenant Theology and the idea of Israel and the Church being one in the same...nah.  Can't go there.  I'm a Dispensationalist (sorry Reba!).  There is a definite distinction between the Church and Israel regardless of the similarities of God's chosen program for reaching the world in our present age.

I'll believe this. ;) :D



Congratulations, brother, I look forward to hearing more about Chloe.

Figured you would!   :D


Thanks!  I've posted in You Name It...

I can believe that brother. ;) ;D ;D ;D

Brothers and Sisters, I had no idea what "Arminian doctrine" was, so I looked it up and found this here below I have pasted it and it also has the Calvinism doctrine listed. I am not into any "labels" except one.. CHRISTIAN!  I LOVE JESUS with ALL of my heart and I know He loves me and the WHOLE World and died for ALL of us, so that who so ever believes in HIM has Eternal life! AMEN!





Arminian doctrine is the term for a theological stance originating with James Arminius - a contemporary of John Calvin. His views include:

1). "Conditional Predestination" - which basically states that God predestines those He knows ahead of time will accept him; whereas Calvin taught an unconditional election;

2). "Free Will of Man" - a teaching that says that man is a free moral agent can actually choose God;

3). Unlimited Atonement - a teaching that Christ died for more than just the elect;

4). Resistible Grace - a teaching that says that since man is a free moral agent, if God calls him specifically to salvation, he can say no to God. and

5) - the most radical and troubling of all arminian doctrine: a teaching that you can lose your salvation, totally rejecting eternal security. They believe that you must live righteously if you are to retain your saved state. Through sin, a person who was once saved can lose it and be damned. This clearly violates the teachings of God's Word.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Calvinism on the other hand believes in five basic tenets forming the acronym "TULIP":

1) Total depravity - in man there dwells no good thing

2) Unconditional election - since man is totally depraved, election is not based on any merit whatsoever other than the eternal counsel of the will of God

3) Limited atonement - Christ died only for the elect

4) Irresistible grace - Every man who receives an "effectual call" by God's Spirit to salvation will be saved - you cannot refuse God.

5) Perseverance of the Saints - those saved by the power of God are eternally secure and will remain in a righteous condition because of it.

Amen Sister Tina!

I like your definition better. Man's tags, labels, and denominations do confuse something that GOD intended to be simple enough for a child to understand. AND, GOD'S Plan of Salvation IS simple enough for a child to understand. I think that you said it very well, so I want to simply quote it again:

I LOVE JESUS with ALL of my heart and I know He loves me and the WHOLE World and died for ALL of us, so that who so ever believes in HIM has Eternal life! AMEN!

Sister, I share your feelings and thoughts 100%.

Love In Christ,
Tom

   

Amen! That cannot be said enough.


I LOVE JESUS with ALL of my heart and I know He loves me and the WHOLE World and died for ALL of us, so that who so ever believes in HIM has Eternal life! AMEN![/b]