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Hi all,

I know that when I prayed to accept Christ as my savior many years ago, that I was forgiven of all my sins to that point. I know because I asked for it. My slate was wiped clean. Yet - like all of us - I continue to sin. And I faithfully continue to ask for forgiveness of these sins. But recently, my mother brought up a very intriguing point...

She told me that her Bible study leader - a very learned and well-read Christian - has come to believe that upon salvation, we are not only forgiven of all our past sins - but for all our future sins as well. I asked why we then still ask for forgiveness of our sins on a daily basis, and she said God appreciates a persistant spirit.

My mother was an educator for many years (including Sunday School teacher), and has a vast Biblical knowledge. But this concept (of being forgiven for all our future transgressions) was as new to her as it was to me. Her study leader presented such a compelling argument for it though, that she now believes he's right. She didn't have the Scriptures on hand to share with me; but promises to send them.

I'm very perplexed... How could such a thing have eluded me for all these years? Does anyone here share the belief of have Scriptural reference to support it?

As always - thanks for a push in the right direction!

Jesus didn't just die for the sins we committed yesterday or last week but not the ones next June. He died for ALL of our sins, FOREVER.  IT IS FINISHED! The Holy Spirit in us convicts us when we sin because it is the truth and the truth is now in us. The more sins we admit, the more love, mercy, and forgiveness we receive in our hearts and that's how we produce a good crop. Some simply rest on their forgiveness and don't look at the plank in their eyes. They will not produce a good crop. But nevertheless, they are saved. The's why i believe some people sit at the right hand of the Father and the rest of us are scattered all over heaven according to our deeds. To each one, his own gift.

And I agree, PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE sins are ALL FORGIVEN.

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

I believe he died for all sins we have or will commit.  He atoned for them whether or not people accept this sacrifice or him.  I believe that it is still important to ask forgiveness and strive to better ourselves, and work on not committing those sins again.  I believe we owe it to Christ to do all that we can.  The less we sin, the less torment he had to bear for us.... not that we can change the amount now, but... I guess, I feel that the less I do wrong, the less I am assured he had to suffer for me.  I feel that when a person admits their wrongs and seeks forgiveness, it helps them to be a better person too, and brings a peace in their heart that they've done all they can to recitfy their wrong.  I hope that makes some sort of sense....

Try this on for size - Are you saved?  I'm assuming you are.  Then if you are saved then you are in Christ:

1 Cor 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

You are in Christ (and you are if you are saved) and Christ is in heaven at the right hand of the Father, right?

Then if you are in Christ and Christ is in heaven then you are in heaven right now:

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So...stay with me here...when God looks for "fastback" He looks to His right and there sits Jesus Christ and guess who is there in Jesus Christ - you!!!

Question - is Jesus perfect?  Are you in Christ?  Then guess what?  You are perfect in Christ - that is how God sees you, He sees you perfect in Christ.

Now, to the issue at hand - can there be any sin or unforgiveness in heaven?  No, so guess what, you are forgiven in Christ!!!  Now, down here you are in a mess if you are normal like the rest of us saints.  But the real you (in Christ) is seated in heavenly places in Christ, perfect, without sin, forever!!!  This is how God sees the real you.  

Yes, you are allowed to shout on this forum - we are not all dead.  ;D

P.S. - dont' be surprised if some joy-stealer will come behind this post and tell you you have to confess and beg for forgivenss eveytime you mess up - expect this.

May God bless  :)

Jesus died for all sin. All sin - not some, but all.
ALL sin means ALL sin - past, present, future.

Now, THAT is GOOD NEWS!  ;D

Well, many of us have answered in agreement with the truth of Jesus payment in full for all sin with His death, burial and resurrection.  Yet you asked:


Why do we still ask forgiveness?  Because...


Sin within, known and unconfessed breaks communication with our Heavenly Father.  Interestingly enough, it doesn't break relationship, just fellowship.

I've illustrated it this way many times to my daughter: when she sins and is disciplined, often she is sent to her room to sit on her bed.  She and I no longer are fellowshipping.  There is no communication.  However, she is nonetheless still my daughter!  It is the same with our Father.  When we sin, but do not confess that sin, we do not have fellowship with Him.  When we confess our sin, He is "...faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."  When we confess known sin, God cleanses us from unknown sin, making fellowship possible.

It's all about cleaning, not payment my friend.   :)

Wow! Thanks for all the wonderful responses, everybody!

Sin, some Biblical principles,

Adam sinned, missed the mark, did not do what God had commanded him.
Thus sin marred man's human nature, it not only corrupted man but all of creation.

Christ died to overcome death which is the penalty for sins. He also attoned for the sin of the world. He did not abolish sin but made forgiveness possible and that man was to seek to accomplish the work for which he was created, to bring man and creation as a sacrifice to God.

Because Christ died for the world, one is only forgiven when one seeks repentance and asks for that forgiveness. John the Baptist baptized upon repentance Matt 3:6.

We are admitted into Christ Body by baptism and repentance.  We increase our righteousness by not sinning. In as much as I sin, I am unrighteous, in that I don't sin, I am righteous.  The discourse of John in I John 1:8- 2:6 all speak to this effort. This is set against the earlier text in I John 3:4-10. This describes the renewed nature of man. It is these two elements that will be at war against each other and you can use the phrases of Paul where the Spirit wars against the flesh.
Man will not rid himself of sin until the penalty, physical death is paid.

This is why constant forgiveness is necessary for the Christian life. Asking once does not rid you nor alliviate its power. It is a daily, lifelong, battle to win the fight.

It is in the return, upon confession, that Christ acts as our mediator. It brings us once again back in communion with him.  This is exemplified in the story of the Prodigal Son.  It may also be said that if we persist in sinning, and do not return, we will not be saved.

One of the commandments of the NT is to love your brother. This obviously is not kept perfectly. But forgiveness of our tresspasses against others is not honored until we forgive those who trespass against us. God forgives but so must we.  This fulfills the trinitarian nature of man himself. Love God, Love your neighbor as yourself. Take any one of these three elements out of the equation, we fail, or sin.

Confession is not only repentance to God but also repentance to our fellow man against whom we may have sinned. We are after all social beings. We do not live in isolation as individuals.  To fulfull our created goal, we must be persons. That is in communion with all. Sins are not private. They either affect your relationship with God or your neighbor or even against yourself.

This is why Scripture commands us to also confess our sins before our fellow men. Not just to our fellow men.  The Church has always had Confession as a sacrament. It is a means of Grace to heal our souls.  

Sin has an effect on us that if unhealed or not attended will sear our consciences. We hope that what we did never becomes known and we have a gnawing sense of guilt. When we repeat sins and they become common, guilt vanishes. Repetition or rationale for it accomplishes the searing of conscience. Guilt is knowing we have violated a rule, unwritten rule, the law written on our hearts, Rom 2:15. Having your sin witnessed, by a priest, as representing the community restores the life of that community. The early Church, James 5:16, actually confesses publically, however,  in time because many not of the community would be attending, the priest became the representative of that community.  What the Bible does not teach is private confession, which is a refusal to acknowledge sin to the community I John 1:6-10.  Guilt and remorse is life renewing. It initiates confession and repentance. Where there is no guilt or remorse there is no possibility of becoming free of that habitual sin.
Absolution is not possible where there is no repentance.

fastback

i once held to such a position but do not any longer. paul handed over a person to the devil for sinning. john speaks of a sin unto death...peter rebukes simon (the sorcerer) and tells him to pray to God for forgiveness. Christs sacrifice has the capacity to atone for all our sins, but we do still need to repent of them... as the baptists say if they fall away maybe they weren't saved to begin with....
mike

Now I declare to you, brothers, the Good News which I preached to you, which also you received, in which you also stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once, most of whom remain until now, but some have also fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, as to the child born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, who is not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am. His grace which was bestowed on me was not futile, but I worked more than all of them; yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Whether then it is I or they, so we preach, and so you believed. (1Co 15:1-11)

* Good News which I preached to you
* which also you received
* in which you also stand
* by which also you are saved
* if you hold firmly the word which I preached to you

Hold firmly the word which he preached not the "New Law" of the sacraments.

But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if you receive a different spirit, which you did not receive, or a different "good news"... (2Co 11:3-4)

Foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you not to obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth among you as crucified? I just want to learn this from you. Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now completed in the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain, if it is indeed in vain? He therefore who supplies the Spirit to you, and works miracles among you, does he do it by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? (Gal 3:1-5)

Neither the Old Law or "New Law" sacraments are a means to salvation.

Having begun in the Spirit by hearing of faith, are you so foolish to believe that you are now completed in the flesh by the works of the Old Law or the "New Law"?

But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ  (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them... now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition, having abolished in the flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace; and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby. He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near. For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit. (Eph 2:4-22)

"not of yourselves...not of works" - performing the "New Law" sacraments as part of the means for salvation creates a new " law of commandments contained in ordinances" that is of yourself through new works in the law of the sacraments.

I delivered to you first of all that which I also received
* that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures
* that he was buried
* that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures
* that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve
* he appeared to over five hundred brothers at once
* he appeared to James, then to all the apostles
* last of all...he appeared to me also

"I am afraid that somehow...your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ"


But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus; for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, that no one would boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them. (Eph 2:4-10)

For this cause I, Paul, am the prisoner of Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles, if it is so that you have heard of the administration of that grace of God which was given me toward you; how that by revelation the mystery was made known to me, as I wrote before in few words, by which, when you read, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ; which in other generations was not made known to the children of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of his promise in Christ Jesus through the Good News, of which I was made a servant, according to the gift of that grace of God which was given me according to the working of his power. (Eph 3:1-7)

When you can reconcile the faith of Abraham and the elders with the "New Law" of the Catholic Church then you might have a valid reason to questions someone else's understanding of scripture.


Unity in corrupt man made doctrine is not biblical unity.


The jailer, being roused out of sleep and seeing the prison doors open, drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household. (Act 16:27-33)

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?...Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

Every answer to that question from Abraham and the elders through the New Testament has been believe God or believe in Jesus and that faith is counted as righteousness.  All accounts of salvation must reconcile and the only thing mentioned in all accounts is faith (believing God) "...being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform."

After he cared for their wounds he was baptized in obedience to Christ's instruction thus confessing his relationship with Christ that came from his faith through grace.  The baptism was the fruit of living faith, the "good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Rom 10:8-10)



If men keep looking at the things that are to be seen by other men then they can expect the same result.

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and unrighteousness. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the platter, that its outside may become clean also. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitened tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (Mat 23:25-28)

Be careful that you don't do your charitable giving before men, to be seen by them, or else you have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. But when you do merciful deeds, don't let your left hand know what your right hand does (Mat 6:1-3)

Amen

You have received some good advice and some bad in the posted responses.

Yes Christ died for all our sins past present and future, but to extrapolate that message to the idea that they are all forgiven is an error.

We still have to repent and seek forgiveness of our sins present and future or they are not forgiven.  In other words Christ's sacrifice is not applied to them.

Read the following verse carefully.

1John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

IF we confess our sins THEN God will forgive us and cleanse us - both future tense.

Also we see repeated that we will not receive forgiveness if we do not forgive.  So we see forgiveness is conditional.

The following are just a couple example verses that express this concept.

Mark 11:26  But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

Luk 6:37  Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

michael_legna, so are you saying that if we sin and forget to confess it then we loss salvation?
 

It is not an issue of forgetting or about losing salvation.

First the issue of forgetting - it is not about remembering it is always an issue of intent.  Sin is not sin unless we intend it to be (that is why running over someone in a car accidentally is not a sin) and it is not repentance if we do not feel repentant.  Therefore to asnwer you question - If we sin and are not repentant of that sin then we risk throwing away the free gift.

Now the issue of losing salvation - Salvation is not something you have presently - it is something that is determined at the end of our life to see if we have truly accept Christ in all His roles (not just as sacrificial lamb but as shepherd too among other roles).  That is why we have to pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him {Luke 9:23}.  We must obey the Gospel {2 Thes 1:8 and 1 Peter 4:17} and endure {Matt 24:13 and Mark 4:17} and how well we did that in properly accepting the free gift can only be determined at the end of our life.

1Jo 1:8   If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jo 1:9   If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10   If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 2:12   I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1Jo 5:13   These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have (echo, possess, hold, have....present (now) active (involved with it) indicative (simple statement of fact)  eternal (aionios, eternal, forever, age to age, never ending) life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Observations:

John says that sin is sin, and intent is not part of the determination as to what constitutes sin. That is why ALL men are concluded under sin, as Paul points out in
Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

John also points out that if we confess those sins that we do continually commit, we are forgiving of those sins, and our fellowship with God is restored.

Failure to confess sins breaks fellowship, which means we become rather useless to Him....it does not mean that we are thrown in the trash heap and have the gift of salvation taken away, as Paul makes clear in
1Cr 5:1   It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Cr 5:2   And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Cr 5:3   For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, [concerning] him that hath so done this deed,
1Cr 5:4   In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5   To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 John also emphatically points out that the purpose for his writing is so that the readers will KNOW and UNDERSTAND that they have eternal life. By phrasing it in the tenses noted he makes it very clear that it is something they NOW possess, not something they MIGHT possess in the future...if they do this, or that properly.

 And Jesus says,
Jhn 6:47   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (echo, present, active, indicative) everlasting life.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Either a free gift is free (requiring nothing in return), or it is neither free, or a gift.

We pick up our cross daily, because we desire to please Him, not because we have to to hold on to that which He has given....freely.;D
We obey the Gospel because we desire to please Him, and that Gospel is that HE died for us so that we don't have to....HE delivered those who believe in Him from the consequences of sin (death).;D
We endure, because we know that HE is with us to strengthen us, to hold us up when we are weak, to lift us up when we fall, and to chastise us with the washing of the water of the Word when we fail.;D

We love Him....because He FIRST loved us.  ;D

But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, "Don't harm yourself, for we are all here!" He called for lights and sprang in, and, fell down trembling before Paul and Silas, and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. He took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes, and was immediately baptized, he and all his household. He brought them up into his house, and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, with all his household, having believed in God. (Act 16:28-34)

He asked what he must do to be saved. They did not say [hey buddy you can start by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ then you must do this list of things else you won't finish it.]  They said "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved".  "He...rejoiced greatly, with all his household, having believed in God".

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luk 18:10-14)

But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared, not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men; (Tit 3:4-8)

Here he tells what our works are not and what they are.

Our works of righteousness are not a means of salvation but they are good and profitable to men.

The question here is of course what constitutes "believing in".  Is it just believing that a carpenter named Jesus lived?  is it believing that He was God?  Is it believing that He died for our sins?  Or do we have to believe His entire message as well?  You seem to imply that simply believing in Him in His role as sacrificial lamb is enough - that we are free to ignore Him in His role as shepherd - that we do not have to follow Him.  I do not accept that limited approach to the meaning of "believing in" Him.


Its funny though that when the same question was asked of Jesus that is exactly what he did - thus showing that "believing in" Him meant more than mere mental assent.

Matt 19:16-24  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.  He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,   Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?   Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.  But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.   Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.   And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

Christ does give the man a list - fulfill the commandments - and Christ taught us how - through love we fulfill the spirit of the law.  If faith is all we need then why is harder for a rich man to get to heaven?  Is it harder for a rich man to have faith?  The manb made doctrine of faith alone makes no sense.


Look at how salvation was decided in this case - by works.  The one who humbled himself was saved.  Humbling ones self is an act of mortification or works.  It is not an issue of faith.


Yes this verse says works are good and profitable to men but it does not say that is all they are.   You are reading into the verse what you want to see.  Works are not a means to salvation - only grace is that.  Not even faith is a means to salvation, but works and faith together are a means to accepting the free gift.


Above you gave three references that seem on the surface at least to support your position but you pull them out of context with the rest of scripture which clearly shows that works are part of the acceptance of the free gift of salvation.  Three verse references certainly tell only art of the story.  Anyone can find three or even more references within the scriptures to prove almost any doctrine.  The true test is can you find interpretations for the rest of the scriptures so that they too fit your doctrine.

For a start trying interpreting the following verses to fit your doctrine.  

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22  
Repent   
2Co 7:10
Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  
Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14  
Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30  
Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  
Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1  
Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21  
Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  
Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 4:17-18, 2 Thes 1:8, Heb 5:9, James 1:21
Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  
Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Tim 2:15, 1Ti 4:16, Rom 2:7  
Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, Phi 2:12  
Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5     

They all specifically link works to salvation.  If your doctrine is correct and works are not related to salvation then what is the proper interpretation of these verses?

Evangelist & I_Believe,

AMEN BROTHERS!!

Absolute assurance of Salvation is not something satan wants men to have. Doubt and confusion is what satan wants, and far too many people assist him.

YES!!!, we can have absolute, 100% assurance of Salvation. Jesus Christ paid the price in full on the Cross in our stead. This GIFT is PERFECT and PRICELESS. It is a LOVE GIFT from Almighty God that nobody can earn or pay for. FAITH ALONE in the ONE who shed HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD for us is the only WAY to accept this PERFECT GIFT. The PERFECT GIFT AND SACRIFICE is none other than JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR. There is no other way.

Here's the beautiful part:

Men are BORN AGAIN and possess SALVATION the very moment that they accept JESUS CHRIST AS THEIR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOUR.

In that same moment, they are BAPTIZED AND SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Yes, the Seal of the Holy Spirit on the heart of the believer sets this child apart as belonging to Jesus Christ. No power in the universe can separate or remove this child from Jesus Christ. In plain terms, this child is a purchased possession of Jesus Christ and belongs to Jesus Christ forever.

Love In Christ,
Tom

michael,

He said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, " 'You shall not murder.' 'You shall not commit adultery.' 'You shall not steal.' 'You shall not offer false testimony.' 'Honor your father and mother.' And, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " The young man said to him, "All these things I have observed from my youth. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." But when the young man heard the saying, he went away sad, for he was one who had great possessions. Jesus said to his disciples, "Most certainly I say to you, a rich man will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven with difficulty. (Mat 19:17-23)


It is fairly obvious that the context was to show the young man his lack in regards to the Law.  This was not a list for salvation.  The Law was a tutor until the Gospel was fulfilled in Christ.


For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. (Jam 2:10)



You missed the whole point/context of the scripture.  It clearly contrasts works with faith.  One knew Christ was the only way and that he was without strength or merit.  The other thought he has some merit through his works.

A lot of Protestants try to pass this "Jesus was just being sarcastic" interpretation off on those who do not deeply study the scriptures but it does not fly with anyone who knows the rest of the scriptures where Christ tells us again and again to keep His commandments and that the law is not to pass away.


Yes and fulfilled by us too.  Christ taught is that we must fulfill the law through love.

Let us look at a parallel account of this event.

Mar 12:32-34  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

We see that in this version Christ can in no way be saying what you claim he is saying.  Jesus is plainly saying that if you love God and love your neighbor (thus fulfilling the spirit of the law) you are not far from salvation.  How is that possible if salvation is a free gift?  Because this is how Christ taught us is the proper way to accept the free gift.  

If we are dead to the law then why did Christ tell us that if we love Him keep the commandments of that law?  John 14:15

It is because what we are dead to is the letter of the law not the spirit of the law.

Your version just doesn't hold water.


Yes this again applies to attempting to legalistically trying to fulfill the letter of the law in an effort to merit salvation.  That is why it refers to points of the law.  But when you fulfill the spirit of the law through love there are no points to try to legalistically follow or literally adhere to, so it is possible to fulfill the spirit of the law without worrying about legalism.




That is an interesting claim but I notice that you never show any analysis of the verse to back up this strange interpretation.  Not that I am surprised by this approach as you always do this - claim something but cannot show it from the verse you say it comes from.  If you want people to accept this interpretation of yours trying showing specific items from within the verse and how they relate to your doctrine.  

I also noticed you just ignored the verses I listed that specifically refer to works relating to salvation.  Why is that?  Is it possible that you cannot fit these verses into your doctrine?

Maybe you missed them and weren't just ignoring God's word.  I will post them again for you just so you have another chance to show us how they fit your doctrine.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22  
Repent  
2Co 7:10
Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  
Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14  
Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30  
Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  
Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1  
Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21  
Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  
Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 4:17-18, 2 Thes 1:8, Heb 5:9, James 1:21
Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  
Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Tim 2:15, 1Ti 4:16, Rom 2:7  
Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, Phi 2:12  
Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5  

 :'(

Luke 7:46 You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47 Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven--for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48 Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

So your are slack and don't post the verses or, "show any analysis of the verse to back up this strange interpretation" then act snide that one has not done your work for you or has not refuted a claim that, by using your own standard, you have not even attempted to prove.

There appears to be either a lack of maturity or at least insincere motivations for your posts.

For the benefit of others who may be misled by your post, I will soon post the scripture with other verses that show it's context within other related scripture.  Listing an account and it's parallel in the other Gospels may make your list appear larger but does nothing to prove your point.

Is this just more nonsense to buy you time?  I did not include the verse because I had provided them many times before in the past so I assumed everyone had seen them before AND because it would take more room than one post would accomodate AND I expected you to be an adult enough to look them up for yourself.  But I will begin with my next post to provide the verses in their entirety so everyone can see what all the Protestant apologists on this forum have been ducking up to this point.

While you are right I did not provide an analysis, I did provide an interpretation of each, clearly showing how I see them fitting in my doctrine (which is more than you do most times).  It is much more valuable to have the verse reference and an interpretation (as I did) than the entire verse written out for you with no indication of what the person thinks they are implying by referencing it (as you normally do).  I will gladly provide an analysis once I can get anyone on these forums to even address these verses, as all anyone so far has done is ignore them as I suspected you were doing.


I await your response, for I am eager to see how you can fit these clear verses into your doctrine of salvation by faith alone.


Then you don't understand the point of parallel accounts.  Do you think the Gospels were written by mere men who were not aware of the story already being told so they just repeated it?  NO!  The Gospels were written by the Holy Spirit who knew that the parallel accounts existed and so the purpose behind retelling the story is to not just to repeat it but it is to provide alternative views - to provide more illumination into the meaning - to help us better understand the full impact of an event.  So yes they do add to proving a point.

We have to do works to properly accept the gift of salvation.

PART 1

We have to do the will of the Father
Matt 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Rom 2:13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

We have to love God and mankind
Luke 10:25-28  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?  And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.  And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Mat 25:31-46  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:   And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.   Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:   For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:   Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.   Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

We have to keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?   And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
   
Mar 10:17-19  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?   And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

Mat 5:19-29  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.  For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1John 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

END OF PART 1

We have to do works to properly accept the gift of salvation.

PART 2

We have to repent   
2Co 7:10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

We have to eat His Body and drink His Blood
John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

We have to be humble
Matt 5:3  Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 18:9-14  And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.  The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.  And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.  I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

We have to suffer persecution for righteousness if it comes upon us
Matt 5:10  Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
   
We have to lose attachment to our earthly life
Matt 16:25  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
   
Mark 8:35  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Luke 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
   
Luke 17:33  Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
   
John 12:25  He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Mar 10:28-30  Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.  And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

We have to follow Christ
John 10:27-28  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

We have to live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Rom 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

We have to be converted
Mat 18:3-4  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

James 5:20  Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1John 3:20-21  For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.  Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

END OF PART 2

We have to do works to properly accept the gift of salvation.

PART 3

We have to emulate the saints
Rom 11:14  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

We have to obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 4:17-18  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?  And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2 Thes 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 1:21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

We have to control our words
Matt 12:37  For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

We have to endure or continue
Matt 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
   
Matt 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
   
Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1 Tim 2:15  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

1Ti 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Rom 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

We have to work out our salvation
1 Tim 6:12  Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1Ti 6:19  Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

We have to be baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Mark 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
   
END OF PART 3
END

Michael,

Very good effort and explanation. It is very difficult to get the protestant apologist to expain just how the texts they use support their view. Most cannot do it. They just repeat the verse as if the verse explains it. Often opposite of many other verses to the contrary. Such as these of 'works righteousness' verses you listed.

Good Luck.

If you look at that story closely you see three things almost immediately.

First is that she is forgiven because she loved.  In other words she is believes in Christ fully enough to follow the teachings of Christ and love God and one another.

Second she is forgiven of her sins because she was repentant (though it is not mentioned in the verses quoted she also washed His feet with her tears).

Third she was forgiven of her sins but not told she would not haver to be repentant of future sins, or that she could stop loving God and others.  There is no promise of unconditional forgiveness of future sins in this story. , or any story in the scriptures.  That is why we are told to repent and confess our sins to have them forgiven.

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness.  IF we confess our sins...

Just an added note as I have not seen anyone either acknowledge or comment on my much earlier post regarding the petition in the Lords Prayer.

We are not forgiven until we forgive our brother. The same triangle is always in progress. God, brother, me. Sin against brother is a sin against God, but God wants us to forgive our brothers first, then He will forgive.
Ever ongoing, constant. Unless one feels that they no longer sin.

You know that distance you feel when you sin against God?  And the closeness you begin to feel to God when you confess your sins and forgive others.  We become far from Him when we sin.  

Sin distances people from God.  Especially believers.  We may be forgiven, but we are instructed to ask for forgiveness.  If one sins and does not feel guilty about it and says to himself 'God has already forgiven me', he was not truly saved.  Sin grieves the Holy Spirit.  Those with the Holy Spirit know this.

If you sin from now on until you die and don't ask for forgiveness and don't forgive others, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when Judgement day comes around.  

Thats my take on it.

Peace and God bless all :)

Do the Will of the Father

Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Therefore, by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 7:20-21)

By the fruit of their faith you will know them. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess but then it will be too late.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified (Rom 2:13)

By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  We are no longer under the law but under grace.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Love God and Mankind

Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tempted Him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said to him, What is written in the Law? How do you read it? And answering, he said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself. And He said to him, You have answered right; do this and you shall live. But he, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus, And who is my neighbor? (Luk 10:25-29)

Jesus teaching those under the law knowing the man was only trying to justify himself.  By the works of the law no flesh will be justified.  We are no longer under the law but under grace.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory. And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats. And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left. Then the King shall say to those on His right hand, Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink;... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life. (Mat 25:31-46)

Jesus didn't say that these merited salvation.  They showed themselves righteous by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 1]

Keep the Commandments

Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22
And behold, one came and said to Him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And He said to him, Why do you call Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments. He said to Him, Which? Jesus said, You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and, you shall love your neighbor as yourself. The young man said to Him, I have kept all these things from my youth up; what do I lack yet? Jesus said to him, If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in Heaven. And come, follow Me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you that a rich man will with great difficulty enter into the kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 19:16-23) same story Mar 10:17 & Luke 18:18

Jesus taught the man that the he could not get there by the law.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Do not think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to destroy but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Till the heaven and the earth pass away, not one jot or one tittle shall in any way pass from the Law until all is fulfilled. Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven. For I say to you that unless your righteousness shall exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of Heaven. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not kill" --and, "Whoever shall kill shall be liable to the judgment." But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the sanhedrin; but whoever shall say, Fool! shall be liable to be thrown into the fire of hell. Therefore if you offer your gift on the altar, and there remember that your brother has anything against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are in the way with him; that the opponent not deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you have paid the last kodrantes. You have heard that it was said to the ancients, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Mat 5:17-28)

Jesus taught them that the he could not get there by the law and even made the law more difficult that it had traditionally been interpreted.  He cam to fulfill the law.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Do not marvel, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him. By this we have known the love of God, because He laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers. But whoever has this world's goods and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him? My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. And in this we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him, that if our heart accuses us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence toward God. And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment. And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us. (1Jo 3:13-24)

How do we know that we have believed on the name of His Son Jesus Christ? By the Spirit which He gave to us.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For he was crucified through weakness, yet he lives through the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we will live with him through the power of God toward you. Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified. But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified. (2Co 13:4-6)

How do we know that we are in the faith? By the Spirit which He gave to us.

[Part 2]

Repent

2Co 7:10
I now rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that you were made sorry to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly way, that you might suffer loss by us in nothing. For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation, which brings no regret. But the sorrow of the world works death. For behold, this same thing, that you were made sorry in a godly way, what earnest care it worked in you. Yes, what defense, indignation, fear, longing, zeal, and vengeance! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter. (2Co 7:9-11)

Godly sorrow works repentance to salvation by faith in Christ. The only way to truly believe Christ for salvation is to repent of your sinfulness. Nothing about working for salvation here.  We didn't work up a Godly sorrow.  To each is given a measure of faith.  It says "you demonstrated yourselves to be pure in the matter" not that you worked and became pure in the matter.

Rom 3:19-31  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God...(31)  Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! No, we establish the law.

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood

John 6:54
They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent." ...Jesus therefore said to them, "Most certainly, I tell you, it wasn't Moses who gave you the bread out of heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to him, "Lord, always give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." ...No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'They will all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who hears from the Father, and has learned, comes to me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except he who is from God. He has seen the Father. Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down out of heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. Yes, the bread which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh." ...He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him...He who eats this bread will live forever." ... "Does this cause you to stumble? Then what if you would see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life. (Joh 6:28-63)

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will not be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...

This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day...Most certainly, I tell you, he who believes in me has eternal life.

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

He gives us the literal first then the figurative.  Nothing about working for salvation here.  

[Part 3]

Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. "Blessed are you when people reproach you, persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven. For that is how they persecuted the prophets who were before you. "You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its flavor, with what will it be salted? It is then good for nothing, but to be cast out and trodden under the feet of men. You are the light of the world. A city located on a hill can't be hidden. Neither do you light a lamp, and put it under a measuring basket, but on a stand; and it shines to all who are in the house. Even so, let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. (Mat 5:3-16)

"You are the light of the world...let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven"  

Show the fruit of the Spirit that is in you.  We have no light of our own.  Describing attributes (bearing fruit in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God).  Nothing about working for salvation here.

"Two men went up into the temple to pray; one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this: 'God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.' But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn't even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luk 18:10-14)

"Contrasts on who thinks his works have merit with the one who trusts only in God’s mercy. Nothing “positive” about working for salvation here.

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10
Blessed are those who have been persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. (Mat 5:10)

Describing what the world does to those who believe.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 4]

Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life

Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30
But he turned, and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, for you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of men." Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone desires to come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, and whoever will lose his life for my sake will find it. (Mat 16:23-25)

Describing attributes of those who have not believed and in faith given their life to Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

For whoever wants to save his life will lose it; and whoever will lose his life for my sake and the sake of the Good News will save it. (Mar 8:35)

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever will lose his life for my sake, the same will save it... For whoever will be ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed, when he comes in his glory, and the glory of the Father, and of the holy angels. But I tell you the truth: There are some of those who stand here, who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God." (Luk 9:24-27)

Whoever seeks to save his life loses it, but whoever loses his life preserves it. (Luk 17:33)

Jesus answered them, "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. Most certainly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life. (Joh 12:23-25)

He who hates his old sinful life and turns and believes (has faith) will have eternal life in Christ.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. "Aren't two sparrows sold for an assarion coin? Not one of them falls on the ground apart from your Father's will, but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore don't be afraid. You are of more value than many sparrows. Everyone therefore who confesses me before men, him I will also confess before my Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies me before men, him I will also deny before my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 10:28-33)

The fruitful works by word or deed proclaim/confess our faith in Christ.  You will know them by their fruit. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Rom 10:10-13  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.  (11)  For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed."  (12)  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.  (13)  For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  

This does not mean a mute person will not be saved because they can not speak. "For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

[Part 5]

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28
But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. (Joh 10:26-28)

Statement of fact. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1
2Pe 2:1-22  But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.  (2)  Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.  (3)  In covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words: whose sentence now from of old doesn't linger, and their destruction will not slumber.  (4)  For if God didn't spare angels...and didn't spare the ancient world...(6) and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly;  (7)  and delivered righteous Lot, who was very distressed by the lustful life of the wicked  (8)  (for that righteous man dwelling among them, was tormented in his righteous soul from day to day with seeing and hearing lawless deeds):  (9)  the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment;  (10)  but chiefly those who walk after the flesh in the lust of defilement, and despise authority...But these, as unreasoning creatures, born natural animals to be taken and destroyed, speaking evil in matters about which they are ignorant, will in their destroying surely be destroyed,  (13)  receiving the wages of unrighteousness; people who count it pleasure to revel in the daytime, spots and blemishes, reveling in their deceit while they feast with you; ...These are wells without water, clouds driven by a storm; for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever.  (18)  For, uttering great swelling words of emptiness, they entice in the lusts of the flesh, by licentiousness, those who are indeed escaping from those who live in error;  (19)  promising them liberty, while they themselves are bondservants of corruption; for a man is brought into bondage by whoever overcomes him.  (20)  [/b]For if, after they have escaped the defilement of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in it and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.  (21)  For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after knowing it, to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.[/b]

They had knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and had known the way of righteousness but turned back from the holy commandment delivered to them. They deny the Master who bought them. He paid for the sins of all men but is only those who believe in Him for salvation that partake of that promise. Nothing about working for salvation here.

Rom 8:1-11  There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don't walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  (2)  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.  (3)  For what the law couldn't do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh;  (4)  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  (5)  For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  (6)  For the mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace;  (7)  because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God's law, neither indeed can it be.  (8)  Those who are in the flesh can't please God.  (9)  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  Nothing about working for salvation here.

[Part 6]

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21
Mat 18:1-14  In that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying, "Who then is greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven?"  (2)  Jesus called a little child to himself, and set him in the midst of them,  (3)  and said, "Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.  (4)  Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child, the same is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven...(10)  See that you don't despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.  (11)  For the Son of Man came to save that which was lost.  (12)  "What do you think? If a man has one hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, doesn't he leave the ninety-nine, go to the mountains, and seek that which has gone astray?  (13)  If he finds it, most certainly I tell you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray.  (14)  Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Mat 19:13-14  Then little children were brought to him, that he should lay his hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them.  (14)  But Jesus said, "Allow the little children, and don't forbid them to come to me; for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to ones like these."  

Whoever therefore humbles himself as this little child. When we understand our need we will trust Christ for our salvation. If we trust in ourselves and our works then we will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jam 5:14-20  Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the assembly, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord,  (15)  and the prayer of faith will heal him who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.  (16)  Confess your offenses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The insistent prayer of a righteous person is powerfully effective.  (17)  Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and it didn't rain on the earth for three years and six months.  (18)  He prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.  (19)  Brothers, if any among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,  (20)  let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.

“among you” does not necessarily mean they had believed in Christ for salvation.

Luk 8:12  Those along the road are those who hear, then the devil comes, and takes away the word from their heart, that they may not believe and be saved.

Rom 5:19  For as through the one man's disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

1Jo 3:19-24  And by this we know that we are of the truth, and persuade our hearts before him,  (20)  because if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.  (21)  Beloved, if our hearts don't condemn us, we have boldness toward God;  (22)  and whatever we ask, we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his sight.  (23)  This is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.  (24)  He who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him. By this we know that he remains in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

Joh 6:28-29  They said therefore to him, "What must we do, that we may work the works of God?"  (29)  Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

[Part 7]

I will respond to the rest as time permits.

She loved Christ.

44   And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45   Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46   My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.


She loved Christ. See above. 50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

She loved Christ.
50   And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Notice the condition placed on forgiveness. Thy faith hath saved thee.....

PART 1 OF 9

Thanks for addressing the verses I have posted numerous times and others have choosen to ignore.

However you apparently do not understand my position on works in relation to salvation or have purposely decided to build a strawman to attack as your comment that ends each of your rebuttals is a misstatement of what I am claiming.  I am not saying we work for salvation anymore than you are saying we have salvation because of the strength of our faith, because then it would be something we could boast of.  So claiming as you do repeatedly that these verses do not show that we have to work for salvation is attacking something other than my position and so most of your work is wasted.  I will make it clearer in my response to the first two verses but it applied almost universally to your rebuttal and so I will not repeat that part of my correction to your answer at each and every occurrence to save space.

The other thing you do is that instead of providing your interpretation of these verses you most frequently just try to discredit mine by offering verses that appear to be in opposition to the verses I referenced.  This is not as useful as when both people in the discussion offer interpretations of both set of referenced verses.  That is why I have provided my interpretation of all the verses you referenced (even though you paraphrased most of them and did not even provide a book or verse number reference so anyone could know for sure which one you might be thinking of – and you were complaining when I didn’t type mine out for you!!!)  Since I have provided interpretations now of both sets of referenced verses and these interpretations are at the very least self consistent, I would ask that when you reply you do the same and stop ducking explaining what the verses themselves say instead of trying to satisfy the readers with what they don’t say, otherwise we will never know if your doctrine is even self consistent.


This is not merely a discussion of judging fruit it says if all you do is acknowledge Him as Lord, only by your lips (paying lips service but not really following His teachings), mere mental assent only - or in other words faith alone - you will not be saved.  Only those who do the will of the Father (works) as well, will make it into heaven.  Not because of these works but because without them your faith was not real.  So the condition on accepting the free gift of salvation is to have both faith and works.

The verse is very clear those who just say that they accept Jesus as their Lord will not be saved, but those who both accept Him as Lord and do the will of the Father will be.


The verse (Gal  2:16) that you try to bring into contrast with the one I referenced (Rom 2:13) is of course not contradicting the one I referenced as the two verses cannot contradict one another.  Therefore either my interpretation is wrong or yours is.  I believe the Rom 2:13 is pointing to the importance of works of loving obedience to His teachings to fulfill the spirit of the law (as He taught us to do) through love.  I would interpret Gal 2:16 to be speaking about works of the letter of the law for which we might boast aimed at meriting salvation as some tried to do in the Old Testament because they did not understand that God wants mercy not sacrifice.  This letter of the law is what Paul knew kills but the spirit brings life.


Of course this reference to Rom 6:14 is also being presented as if in opposition to the verse Rom 2:13.  But Rom 6:14 is not saying we are not supposed to keep the commandments of God.  It is saying that we do not have to (nor were we ever suppose to) slavishly adhere to some rigorous, literal, legalistic interpretation of the letter of the law.  God always wanted us to understand the intent of the law (which is simply to love God and love one another Rom 13:8).  So we are still under the spirit of the law and grace makes it possible (when we cooperate with it) to fulfill the law through love..

Because you chose to try to contrast verses rather than offer an alternative interpretation for the verse I referenced I have no idea if your can provide an interpretation of Rom 2:13 that is self consistent within your own doctrine.  I would be interested in see that interpretation.


Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation.  I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ.  You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.

END OF PART 1

PART 2 OF 9


That is what you consider to be an interpretation.  Sounds more like an excuse to me.  So what if the lawyer was trying to justify himself – does that make the answer Jesus gave false?  You fail to address His answer unless you are trying the old Protestant fall back answer than Jesus was just being sarcastic with the lawyer and didn’t really mean that you could do those things and inherit eternal life – in which case you make Christ out to be a liar.

What really shows the error of your interpretation is if we look in a similar incident where Jesus discusses the commandments with another intellectual.  In the account in Mark 12:28-34 one of the scribes is trying to find out what the greatest commandment is Jesus takes a slightly different tact with him, but still tells him that keeping of these great commandments lead to the kingdom of God.

Mar 12:28-34  And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?   And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.  And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:   And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.  And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Jesus clearly is teaching the lesson that the law is not been done away with, that of the law being fulfilled through love and if you do so and endure in these works of obedience to the spirit of the law that this is more effective than all sacrifices (because God wants mercy not sacrifice).  This new approach to fulfilling the law involve works that do not merit salvation but serve to enliven and perfect our faith to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

When you respond to these rebuttal posts of mine I would ask that you provide an interpretation of this verse when you go back to offer an interpretation of the others.


By this lame paraphrasing of  Gal 2:16 you simply try to offer the same answer to this verse reference as you offered to the last one.  Consistent but not very successful as the errors in your interpretation are the same and so, so is my answer.

The verse (Gal  2:16) that you try to bring into contrast with the one I referenced (Rom 2:13) is of course not contradicting the one I referenced as the two verses cannot contradict one another.  Therefore either my interpretation is wrong or yours is.  I believe the Rom 2:13 is pointing to the importance of works of loving obedience to His teachings to fulfill the spirit of the law (as He taught us to do) through love.  I would interpret Gal 2:16 to be speaking about works of the letter of the law for which we might boast aimed at meriting salvation as some tried to do in the Old Testament because they did not understand that God wants mercy not sacrifice.  This letter of the law is what Paul knew kills but the spirit brings life.


Of course this reference to Rom 6:14 is also being presented as if in opposition to the verse Rom 2:13.  But Rom 6:14 is not saying we are not supposed to keep the commandments of God.  It is saying that we do not have to (nor were we ever suppose to) slavishly adhere to some rigorous, literal, legalistic interpretation of the letter of the law.  God always wanted us to understand the intent of the law (which is simply to love God and love one another Rom 13:8).  So we are still under the spirit of the law and grace makes it possible (when we cooperate with it) to fulfill the law through love..

Because you chose to try to contrast verses rather than offer an alternative interpretation for the verse I referenced I have no idea if your can provide an interpretation of Luke 10:25-28 that is self consistent within your own doctrine.  I would be interested in see that interpretation.


Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation.  I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ.  You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.


This is even a more direct display of the strawman you have chosen to attack rather than address my position.  I am not claiming that these works merit salvation, that is merely the poor understanding Protestantism has always had of the Catholic position and so I understand why you slip into it when you do not pay close enough attention to what is being claimed but this failing does not make your argument any stronger.

Jesus is very clearly saying that those who did works of mercy, loving works of obedience to His new commandment (John 13:34) (they are sheep after all – a clear reference to those who follow Jesus and His teachings) thus fulfilling the spirit of the law (not the letter in an attempt to merit salvation as you seem to think I am claiming) were welcomed into heaven and those who did not have these works and so did not have a true living faith were not welcomed.  Since you seem to think that works play no role in salvation then it is possible to have faith without works and that means that the goats could have had faith alone, and yet they were not allowed into heaven.  Faith alone is not sufficient to properly accept the free gift of salvation.

This account of sheep and goats parallels the account above we discussed in Matt 7:20-21 where those who cry Lord, Lord and do not do the will of God (loving works of mercy) are the goats and the sheep are those who follow Jesus and thus do works of loving obedience.  So we have two verses which directly compliment each other, both saying the same thing – works play a role in salvation as much as faith does.  That is why love is greater than faith. (1 Cor 13:13)

END OF PART 2

PART 3 OF 9


Where do you get that from the verse above?  It says completely the opposite in the verses you bolded yourself.

It says - If you want to get to heaven follow the commandments.
The man said I have done all these things all my life (referring to the literal keeping of the law in a legalistic way to merit salvation)

But Jesus knew his heart and said - Oh really!  If you have offered mercy and not just sacrifice then prove it sell everything you own and give it to the poor – these are true acts of love that fulfill the spirit of the law which leads to life (2 Cor 3:6) – then you will truly have done the works which are part of a proper acceptance of the free gift.

Not only that but later we see that those who do the work of mercy of denying themselves in service of the Gospel will also be rewarded for it.  How are they rewarded?  Not by crowns in heaven but by eternal life itself, clearly linking salvation to the condition of works of love for God and our fellow man.  These works cannot be done in some legalistic literal way in an attempt to fulfill some contract thus making God a debtor, but must be done out of love for God in obedience to His call to pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him.
   

And this is just the strawman I have explained away repeatedly before.  I am just going to delete the rest of these types of comments and not respond to them over and over again to save space.


No that is not what Jesus was doing.  He was telling us that our righteousness must exceed the righteousness had to exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees – that is not the same thing at all.  It is a common Protestant misconception that the scribes and Pharisees were exceedingly righteous and so Jesus was telling us we would have to do even better.  But the scribes and Pharisees were not righteous.  True they were very good at satisfying the letter of the law, but the letter killeth.  But they focused on tithes of mint and cumin (Matt 23:23) while devouring old widows houses (Matt 23:14).  They were terrible at fulfilling the spirit of the law for life (that is what is works of righteousness) and we can exceed them in righteousness through loving one another as He commanded us.  This failing of Protestants to not see the Pharisees as righteous explains why they never developed a proper doctrine of salvation.

In one way you are right the spirit of the law can be more demanding (such as looking on a woman with lust being the same as adultery) but the works we have to do to fulfill the law are easier to know when one is and is not staying with in them because all you have to do is ask yourself is this how you would want to be treated.


Yes and He also came to teach us how to fulfill the law.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Rom 8:4  That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8-10  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.   For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

END OF PART 3

PART 4 OF 9


Again rather than offer an interpretation of the verse I reference you pull up another verse to offer as contrast to the one I reference. I certainly hope when you respond to this rebuttal you come back with actual interpretations of both sets of verses as I have done so we can see if your doctrine can self consistently address all the verses because if it cannot it is wrong.

Because of this your entire analysis goes off in another direction and never addresses whether salvation is linked to works which is the evidence in the verse I reference by the following facts

“we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers”
“no murderer has everlasting life”
“shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of God dwell in him?’
“if our heart does not accuse us, we have confidence toward God”

My reference was just to the fact that a murder could not have eternal life – thus linking salvation to works with no mention of faith at all.  But sense you extended the reference to show the context (and then surprisingly never interpreted that context to show what it might mean to support your doctrine) I have analyzed it for you showing that even the context shows that salvation is related to works.

Another section of this verse reference (as you extended it) that needs to be addressed is 1 John 3:23 which shows that the message in John 6:29, that the work of god is to believe in His Son, is not complete.  How is this message of faith alone completed or supplemented?  By adding love (works) to faith.

You refer to how we know we are in the faith – by the spirit, but you offer no scripture to support this idea.  I did a search for these terms in the KJV and did not find a verse that says this, but it is clear you are not using that translation so I would like to know what verse from your translation you are using to support this idea.  The verse you reference clearly says that we are to test ourselves to see if we are abiding in or properly living out our faith, so the very verse you reference seems to disagree with this claim of yours.

I do agree that the verse you reference (2 Cor 13:4-6) can be interpreted as merely showing us who has a true saving faith through their works.  But even to suggest this approach says that faith will always be accompanied by works – so faith alone cannot happen except for the form of faith which does not have good works associated with it and that type of faith is not acceptable for salvation.  Thus we end up with two types of faith one that is acceptable for salvation and one that is not and yet the one that is acceptable does not merit or qualify as a condition on the free gift.  So why is it so hard for you to see that there are two types of works, one that is not acceptable for salvation because it is attempting to merit salvation through strict adherence to the letter of the law without concern for what the law really means, and one that is acceptable for salvation because it is a loving obedience to the teachings of Christ which is part and parcel of believing in Him.

A side note: what translation are you using the wording of the verses you are using are extremely different from most of the standard translations I checked it against.


The verse clearly says that repentance is a condition on salvation.  Repentance isn’t faith, repentance is works.  That is because repentance is not merely a change of mind or heart.  The Greek word translated as repentance is a military term for about face.  It is a turning of ones life around.  Repentance comes before faith, because one cannot have faith in a savior until one realizes that one needs one and that requires one to recognize their failings and decide to turn one’s life around.


Whether we are given a measure of faith through the gift of grace as Rom 12:3 indicates does not imply that we didn’t work up a Godly sorrow.  True without His grace we cannot even seek him but we still have to respond and cooperate with that grace.  For that reason both the repentance we experience and the faith we receive a measure of,, is our own.  If faith was not of us then we would all be saved as all are given grace and so all would have faith.  The same argument can be made for repentance.


Yes the law as our schoolmaster showed us that we cannot possibly fulfill it completely – we all fall short.  That is because the details of the law were too complex and man’s nature is such that he want to be lazy about things and not have to think of others hoping to fulfill the law through a literal approach.  This is impossible and not what God wants anyway, so we learn we need a savior.

Gal 3:24-25  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Yes our faith in Christ and His message does indeed establish the law because it is His teaching that we should abandon a life of trying to fulfill some list of requirements and sacrifices by rote, and move on to a life of love and mercy for our fellow man.  That is because faith is not simply the holding of a belief in Christ as the sacrificial lamb.  We must also have faith in His teachings, faith in Him as shepherd and Lord and King and that entails following Him and obeying.

END OF PART 4

PART 5 OF 9


Once again we do not have two verses in contradiction of each other such that we have to spiritualize away the meaning of one and only believe the other.  We have one verse which speak of a partial understanding (until one realizes that faith goes beyond just believing in Christ as sacrificial lamb).  As Augustine put it in his commentary on this very verse.

“He does not say, That you believe Him, but, that you believe in Him. For the devils believed Him, and did not believe in Him; and we believe Paul, but do not believe in Paul. To believe in Him is believing to love, believing to honor Him, believing to go to Him, and be made members incorporate of His Body. The faith, which God requires of us, is that which works by love. Faith indeed is distinguished from works by the Apostle, who says, That man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. But the works indeed which appear good, without faith in Christ, are not really so, not being referred to that end, which makes them good. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes. And therefore our Lord would not separate faith from works, but said that faith itself was the doing the work of God” St. Augustine

Nothing in the verse supports or even hints at the notion that one part is figurative that is just you applying your preconceived notions on the scriptures instead of reading them to see what they say.  It is true that the Jews at first understood Jesus to be speaking figuratively when He says if they come to Him they will never hunger or if they believe in Him they will never thirst.  But as soon as we get to verse 51 we see that the Jews realize he is being literal and they leave.  But even this analysis is opposite of yours with the figurative first and then the literal, so your understanding doesn’t even match the Jews.  The Apostles on the other hand accepted Jesus at His word through the entire discourse.

If Christ is being figurative in His statement of eating His body and drinking His blood then Paul is promoting idolatry when he warns us of damnation for disrespecting this symbol by not recognizing the body of Christ in it (1 Cor 11:29).

All along Jesus uses the term fago for eat, both in reference to the manna in the desert (which was literally eaten of course) and for His own body – thus implying it is to be taken literally there too.  Jesus even strengthens this concept once the Jews revolt against the idea (showing that they were taking Him literally) by using the new term trogo which literally means to gnaw or chew, a much more literal reference to eating.  He also makes no attempt to calm their fears and concerns saying “No, No I am only being figurative here”.

END OF PART 5

PART 6 OF 9


This verse specifically identifies a characteristic of men (poor in spirit) who will be given the gift of salvation (the kingdom of heaven).  Your attempt to force your doctrine (that we have no light of our own) into the discussion has no basis and no support even in the additional context you include – it just plain doesn’t appear in the text – it is merely a remnant of your doctrine and is thus a preconceived notion you are forced to find a way to fit into the verse to make the scripture agree with your doctrine.

The characteristics that lead to salvation are not faith, but works.  So yes this does relate works to the proper acceptance of the gift of salvation, just as faith is.
 

The individual humbles himself that is a work just the same as us converting to be a children another work that applies to salvation.


If the gift of salvation is by faith alone then it doesn’t matter if this is our works or the works of others it must still be excluded (which it obviously isn’t).  But to accept your interpretation is to miss the point of this exhortation.  The beatitudes are exhortations to those who face these issues to remain strong in their faith because if they do there are gifts that await them.  In two cases, this one and the one above involving the poor in spirit, we see that the gift is eternal life in the kingdom of heaven.  The entire message of the beatitudes is one of endurance and that is an issue of works, not faith.

END OF PART 6

PART 7 OF 9


The last part of the phrase is not about those who have not believed, but is about those who have believed.  Those who “lose his life for my sake will find it” refer to those who sacrifice for the gospel and Christ.  It is similar to those who are referred to by Peter in Matt 19:29

Mat 19:29  And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

All of these individuals are promised the gift of eternal life for properly accepting it, by truly believing in Christ, not just as the sacrificial lamb but as shepherd, king and ruler and picking up our cross DAILY and following Him.


Don’t you see this turning, that even you admit is part of repentance, is a work.  As I pointed out before this repentance/work must occur before we have faith in our Savior.  Therefore salvation and eternal life is related to works as much as it is to faith if not more so.


In your own doctrine the work considered here can not be a fruit of the spirit, as it comes prior to salvation – which you link to the moment of faith so there would be no time for this fruit.  So in your doctrine this work because it precedes salvation must also precede faith, which of course it does not.  So your interpretation, made in an effort to fit this verse into your doctrine is inconsistent, but only in your doctrine.  In mine the two must both precede salvation as that is determined at the end when we have endured.  My doctrine is self consistent and yours is not.


The verse you reference in contrast or to the one I referenced (I am sure you think it is to illuminate - but since you fail to even attempt to interpret the verse I offer it can only be seen as trying to get scripture to contradict itself) seems to say that faith is for justification and confession (works) is for salvation. So obviously a strict literal interpretation is insufficient to understand it.  As even the Protestant commentator Matthew Henry points out.

“a. Two things are required as conditions of salvation: - (a.) Confessing the Lord Jesus - … and… (b.) Believing in the heart that God raised him from the dead.”  Matthew Henry’s commentary.

He goes on to point out…

“Justification by faith lays the foundation of our title to salvation; but by confession we build upon that foundation, and come at last to the full possession of that to which we were entitled.” Matthew Henry’s commentary.

So we see that this verse is really talking about the same thing (righteousness and salvation are two ways of expressing the same idea).  So if both are required for salvation and one precedes the other, and one develops from the first then what we are talking about if the issue of sanctification and its role in salvation.  But again we are faced with the fact that sanctification is a process involving works so it cannot be fit in any consistent manner into your doctrine but yet is part and parcel of mine.  So the very verse you use to attempt to illuminate the one I offered disagrees with your doctrine once one bothers to interpret it.

We can see this more clearly if we look at the following verse (which you conveniently did not include in the verse you once again try to put in opposition to another verse from the word of God instead of actually offering an interpretation of the one I referenced):

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

This verse at the very least puts believing and confession on the same level and conditions salvation on the presence.  If we continue on past where you conveniently stop looking at context we see that the process must go as follows: one must have a preacher, then one must hear, then one believe, then one must call on Him (or confess).  So it is possible to make a case for the confession to be a fruit of faith (but there is nothing in the verse that makes this a necessity – it may be that they just follow one another).  But even if it is a fruit then we are left with salvation not being available until both faith and its fruit are present, as we are not given eternal life until we believe and confess.  So it appears salvation is conditional on faith and works and your doctrine which ties salvation to the very moment of faith, is inconsistent with itself.

This is why it is so important that you offer interpretations to both the verses I reference and the ones you provide as illuminatory, so we both can see if your doctrine can even interpret both of them in a self consistent way as in this case we saw it could not.


Of course not but the confession of a mute person is every bit a works as the confession of a speaking one.  Works are not merely physical activity – they are anything we might boast of if the situations was different and our intent was to use them to earn or merit salvation.  That is why those who feel that they have gained salvation based on the strength of their faith (and therefore others have missed it because their faith was not as strong) have turned their faith into works, and not the loving obedience we are instructed to either.

END OF PART 7

PART 8 OF 9


Yes it is a statement of fact – that fact being that His sheep follow Him, not just believe in Him.  He in turn gives them eternal life, not just because they are His sheep but because they follow Him.  The works of following Him are shown once again to be a condition of salvation.


So they knew the Lord and turned back so they no longer knew Him?  Does your doctrine allow for loss of salvation?  It can’t be that they knew Him and followed Him (before turning back) and yet did not have faith and were not saved.  Sodom and Gomorrah were burned (symbolic of hell) as an example to who?  Those who do not have faith?  No!  It was done as an example to those who do not do Godly works.  The message is clear- if you do not do Godly works you risk damnation because works of loving obedience are a condition of salvation just as faith is.


You do not have to be in the flesh to walk after it.  We all sin after becoming Christians, anyone who says they do not sin is a liar (1 John 1 – which was written to believers).  As Christians we can be in Christ and still walk according to the flesh.  If we do this without repentance we risk condemnation.  Luckily if we confess our sins he is faithful to forgive us and the condemnation is lifted.  This condemnation is the opposite of salvation and so we see that works can cause us to lose the gift of salvation, as well as being a required condition for acceptance of the gift.

END OF PART 8

PART 9 OF 9


Yes! See you say it yourself.  We must humble (a work) ourselves (that we do outselves) to enter into heaven (to be saved).  There is a work we must do ourselves to be saved.


This verse says nothing like “When we understand our need we will trust Christ for our salvation”,  that is just you imposing your preconceived notions onto the verse.  It also does not say anything like “If we trust in ourselves and our works then we will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.”, that too is just you applying a concept from your doctrine onto a verse that is discussing a different issue.


Once again you broaden the context not to illuminate the verse I referenced but plainly with the intention of hoping it will get lost in the noise as your short terse comment on your broaden context does not even touch on the topic of the verse I referenced.

The verse being considered is James 5:20 which say if we turn (works) someone from sin we save their soul (salvation).  Once again we see that there are works we do that are conditional towards properly accepting the free gift of salvation.  


Again you offer a verse with not interpretation after ignoring the verse I referenced above.  This approach shows you have no interest in see what God’s word has to say and prefer to show that you think some of the verses appear to contradict each other.

But the verse you offer does not contradict the one I provided.  I have shown the interpretation of my referenced verse and now I will show the proper interpretation of the one you suggest and these interpretations will agree with my doctrine and will be self consistent.  Neither of which you have been able to do with any of the verses through out any part of this discussion.

This verse is talking about those who are just being introduced into the faith and have not had time to sprout roots and strengthen and enliven their faith to protect against such attacks.  Satan must strike before such works occur to be successful in preventing faith from being perfected.   These type of children in the faith are not the same as those being discussed in James 5:20 so it is not relevant to this part of the discussion.


Another verse offered with out interpretation thus hiding the fact that your doctrine cannot self-consistently interpret the verses being discussed.

No matter I will provide the proper interpretation to it for you as well, showing that it can be consistently interpreted to fit my doctrine while we will have to remain in the dark as to how or if it fits into your doctrine.

This verse is talking about our righteousness being infused into us thanks to Christ’s sacrifice.  But this righteousness is not to be taken for granted.  We cannot just sit back and do nothing, and this verse does not say that we can regardless of how much you want to read that into it.  Christ taught us that we must pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him to be worthy of Him (Matt 10:38 and Luke 9:23).


I am glad you chose this verse for comparison to 1 John 3:23 even though you did as if to contradict 1 John 3:23 as if it isn’t really saying that we have to do works of love to obey His commandment.  I am glad you bring it up because by comparing these two verses we see that one is incomplete (John 6:29) in that it tells exactly the same thing as the complete one (1 John 3:23) except that it leaves out the part about loving one another.  Certainly we cannot analyze this difference to be due to the longer verse (1 John 3:23) as it adding something that is not true.


Please do – but when you do please interpret both your referenced verses as well as mine and don’t just try to contrast scripture against itself as it does not contradict.  When you do actually put your interpretations to both verses down side by side you may begin to see that the doctrine behind them is not even self consistent.

END OF PART 9
END

If that is all she did then she was disobeying God.

1 John 3:23  And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and disobeying Jesus.

John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.



What you point out is true but it does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture too.  You cannot prove your interpretationof the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself.


What you point out is true but it does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture too.  You cannot prove your interpretationof the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself.


What you point out this time is NOT true and so it certainly does not make what I point out to be untrue, how could it as I am quoting from scripture and you are inserting things into scripture that aren't there.  The verse you reference (concerning the woman washing His feet) in no places says that the condition placed on forgiveness is faith, while the verse I was referencing (concerning god being faithful to forgive us) specifically states a condition.

You cannot prove your interpretation of the verse you choose to reference is correct by refusing to interpret the verse I choose to reference and instead try to show that scripture contradicts itself especially by making things up.

Michael,

We see in the context of Rom 2:13 that you referenced that it is speaking to those under the law.  So we see that the following verses do apply to the context of this verse.

“we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law”

Rom 2:12-29  For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.  (13)  For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified  (14)  (for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,  …(17)  Indeed you bear the name of a Jew, and rest on the law, and glory in God,  …(23)  You who glory in the law, through your disobedience of the law do you dishonor God?  (24)  For "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you," just as it is written.  (25)  For circumcision indeed profits, if you are a doer of the law, but if you are a transgressor of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision…(28)  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh;  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.

Rom 3:19-20  Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God.  (20)  Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

Gal 2:15-16  "We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners,  (16)  yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law.

"Again you offer a verse with not interpretation after ignoring the verse I referenced above.  This approach shows you have no interest in see what God’s word has to say and prefer to show that you think some of the verses appear to contradict each other."

Scripture never contradicts itself and you know that I am not attempting to make it appear that it does.  I am showing more context to contrast with your interpretation.  You may not agree with it but there is no need to be dishonest about my motives.

Thank you in advance for a civil dialog.

“Again I am not saying that we work for our salvation. I am saying that works of loving obedience fulfilling the spirit of the law are necessary to truly believe in Christ. You cannot believe in someone while at the same time not believing what they teach and Christ clearly taught that we are to obey God.”

I fully agree that faith that does not give forth the fruit of obedience is not true faith and is nothing more than a mental assent.  By faith alone but not by “a faith” that is alone.  With true faith you are washed, you are sanctified, you are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.


2Co 13:5-6  Test your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don't you know as to your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you are disqualified.  (6)  But I hope that you will know that we aren't disqualified.

1Co 3:14-16  If any man's work remains which he built on it, he will receive a reward.  (15)  If any man's work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.  (16)  Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Rom 8:9-16  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn't have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.  (10)  If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.  (11)  But if the Spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you...(14)  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God.  (15)  For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"  (16)  The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God;

If the Spirit is not testifying with your spirit then you know that you are not His.

1Co 6:9-11  Or don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don't be deceived. Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,  (10)  nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor extortioners, will inherit the Kingdom of God.  (11)  Such were some of you, but you were washed. But you were sanctified. But you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.


“This is even a more direct display of the strawman you have chosen to attack rather than address my position. I am not claiming that these works merit salvation, that is merely the poor understanding Protestantism has always had of the Catholic position and so I understand why you slip into it when you do not pay close enough attention to what is being claimed but this failing does not make your argument any stronger.”


This is the real life application of the works mentality that I have personally witnessed in other Catholics.  Much of which has centered around the sacraments.  I’ll take your word for it that that is not how you view the spirit of Christ’s commands.


This account of sheep and goats parallels the account above we discussed in Matt 7:20-21 where those who cry Lord, Lord and do not do the will of God (loving works of mercy) are the goats and the sheep are those who follow Jesus and thus do works of loving obedience. So we have two verses which directly compliment each other, both saying the same thing – works play a role in salvation as much as faith does.

A thousand works will not produce faith in Christ but faith in Christ can produce a thousand good works that God created that we should walk in them.

Eph 2:1-10  And He has made you alive, who were once dead in trespasses and sins,  (2)  in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience;  (3)  among whom we also had our way of life in times past, in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.  (4)  But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us  (5)  (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),  (6)  and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,  (7)  so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.  (8)  For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, lest anyone should boast.  (10)  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.

Michael, if salvation is by works then you are saying that Jesus is lying when he says that none of us is good. You are also disagreeing with him when he says; "Now eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." He also said; "I can do NOTHING without my Father." Putting those phrases together, one has to first KNOW our Father in order to be saved and do good works. In addition, if we are not saved until  the magic number of works we do is reached (which is of course arbitrary to each individual), then what causes our joy, thankfulness, hope, patience, love, etc. that are the fruits of the spirit? How can one be thankful if he dies before he attains salvation? What has made us pure before God in order to be saved? Even though we do good works, what has taken away our envy, greed, lust, pride, sloth, wrath, and anger?

PART 1 OF 2


The context does refer to those under the law but lets see what it means by this under the law reference.  Verse 12 says that those who have sinned not knowing the law (in this case the letter of the law is clearly intended because we cannot sin unless we know what we are doing is wrong – so we all know the spirit of the law) are judged without the law.  In other words we are judged for our understanding of the spirit of the law not for some uncrossed "T" or undotted "I" in the letter of the law.  But those under the law were required to know all the details and live up to them if they wished to use the law to merit salvation.  And we both know once you go down that road you are doomed to failure.  

Why are both cases handled as they are?  Because as verse 13 says it is not enough to just hear the law and say it is a good thing, but we must do what we profess to be a good thing, otherwise we are not really putting our money where our mouth is, we are hypocrites.  We do not truly believe that the laws are good if we do not do them.  Our faith is false if we do not believe in the teachings as much as we claim to believe in the teacher.  

Verse 14 says that those not under the letter of the law become a law unto themselves in the sense that the law is written in their hearts.  They do not try to fulfill it legalistically but through mercy rather than sacrifice and they will be judge according to how well they live according to their understanding – this is called living your faith.

Verse 17 through 24 warns the Jews who gloried in the law as if it would save them (but yet disobeyed that law) were doing additional harm by making God out to be dishonorable for having chosen such a people as His own.

Verse 25 speaks of how circumcision is profitable (as an act of obedience) to those whose faith is strong enough in both God and His teachings to obey the law.  But when one transgresses the law even these acts of loving obedience lose their value because it is clear you don't really love God you were just going through the motions.

Verse 28 and 29 carries on this discussion talking directly to the issue of literal keeping of the law even circumcision verse a spiritual understanding and keeping of the law and circumcision.  In this discussion it clearly points out that it is much better to keep the spirit of the law.   One can even be a chosen people of God inwardly by following the spirit of the law rather than outwardly through keeping the letter of the law.

The point of all this?  The verse reference speaks to both, those who are under the letter of the law (which is not a place one wants to be) and those who are not under the letter of the law having become a law unto themselves by fulfilling the spirit of the law through love.  We know Christ did not do away with the law, and this would make no sense if it did not apply to someone.  But it can apply to some without them being under the law.  I guess the short answer is under the law means fulfilling the letter of the law and it leads to death or condemnation.  Fulfilling the spirit of the law through love as Christ taught us is not being under the law, but the law still applies.


This is of course speaking about the letter of the law as I explain above.  Those under the letter of the law can only learn what is sin, and that knowledge does not lead to salvation because no flesh will be justified by attempting to merit the free gift through works of the letter of the law.  Those who fulfill the spirit of the law through love are not placing themselves under the law.  In fact one has to be under grace before one can understand this message of Christ's.


I know and was not serious about your motives I was making a point as to how it appeared.  Providing context especially from an unrelated area of another book of scripture when you neither interpret the verse I referenced nor the one you add does nothing to show how they two can be interpreted in a consistent manner which is what we have to have before we develop doctrine from either.


First I need to point out again that it is not faith that gives forth the fruit of obedience it is grace that yields both the fruits of faith and works.  One must not get grace and faith confused with each other.

What do you mean by faith alone then if not a faith that is alone?


See!  Here we test ourselves, that is a work of ours.  How are we disqualified?  We are disqualified when Christ is not in us.  How do we get Christ to abide in us?  

John 15:4-12  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.   I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.   Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.   As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.  These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

We get Christ to abide in us by keeping His commandments and His commandment is to love God and love one another.

END OF PART 1

PART 2 OF 2


Yes this verse is referring a judgment that occurs after life is over and only to those who are saved.  We know that because verse 11 and 12 refer to these men having built upon the foundation of Christ and we then see that the works they did are tried by fire and those which were unacceptable are burnt away and they suffer because of it.  This is referring to the final purification before we go to heaven to be with God who cannot be in the presence of anything unholy or spotted.  This verse is why Luther's model of us as a dung heap covered by a fresh snow never made any sense to me.  It is describing the state Catholics refer to as purgatory.  It is not a salvation issue.  No one goes through this purification who is not saved.


Again this verse talks about the spirit of Christ in us (which we know from above requires that we obey His commandments).  If we are in the Spirit, in other words if Christ abides in us then our bodies are dead to sin (but that does not mean we do not sin – only that we do not sin unrepentantly).   This Spirit that dwells within us, will raise us up to life (salvation) and we are children of God (another reference to salvation).  We are not under the spirit of bondage to the letter of the law as a slave, but we are adopted sons doing works of loving obedience.  If we have this Spirit the Spirit testifies with our spirit (the two cooperate) that we are children of God.  How do these two Spirits testify?  Through our works (not of the letter of the law) of loving obedience which are fruits of the spirit but serve to perfect our faith.


Yes but this verse is not saying that we no longer will sin in those ways, only that we will not revel in those sins.  That if and when we sin in those ways we will be bothered by them and repent of them, confessing our faults and seeking forgiveness.  If we stop repenting and seeking forgiveness we like a dog go back to our own vomit and like a sow having been washed go back to wallowing.  If we revert to those behaviors (works) we have abandon and tossed aside the free gift.


I would caution you not to judge the correctness of a doctrine by how those who claim it adhere to its principals.  Real life application is almost never proper regardless of whether the topic is religious or even secular.  That is just the attire of man.   Many Catholics do not have a proper understanding of the role works and faith play in accepting the free gift.  What is needed with them is not a change in doctrine but improved catechesis.  That being said I am not sure if you should give me that credit as I believe in the access to grace through the sacraments.  However it is not a meritorious access but merely one promised by Christ for our loving obedience.   Someone who participates in the sacraments in a legalistic literal fashion (much as the Jews tried to fulfill the law in the Old Testament) will not receive this grace, in fact they may incur wrath as Paul warns of those who participate in the Eucharist without discerning the Body of the Lord truly present in the bread.  That is why Catholics do not allow Protestants to receive the sacrament of the Eucharist because for them it would be a mechanical fulfillment of an instruction that goes much deeper since they do not believe in the true presence.

But I would disagree with you that the sacraments (when properly understood) reflect a works mentality in the sense of meriting salvation.  No Catholic should ever think that the sacraments merit them salvation.  The sacraments are Christ instituted as an outward sign of an inner transformation through the infusion of grace and as such we do them in loving obedience.  Confession is a clearer example of this.  We could go straight to God with our sins, but Christ told us to go to the Church with them (when He gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins - John 20:23) so we obey Jesus' instructions and typically go to the priest to confess rather than directly to God in prayer.  None of this obedience merits us salvation anymore than faith merits us salvation.  But the scripture that repeatedly link works to salvation make it clear that works and faith together are the only proper method to accept the free gift.


I agree that works does not create faith, but works do perfect faith and an imperfect faith is not a saving faith – for those with an imperfect faith are like those who waivereth or those who put their hand to the plow and look back.  They are not worthy of Him.

You also do not prove your point that works come from faith by the verse you reference.  The topic of Eph 2:1-10 is grace not faith.  It is discussing works that are the fruits of the spirit, either the spirit of the Satan or the spirit of God.  It is important not to confuse grace and faith.   Grace is the source of both our ability to seek God and believe and it is also the source of our ability to do good works.  Our part in both is the cooperation of our free will with this grace, as it is not forced on us but must be accepted.

END OF PART 2
END

I have covered this for you before but here it is again.
This is a not literal statement that we can do no good because you will note that Jesus included Himself in that group.  The Son is a separate person from the Father in the Trinity and if only the Father is good (which is what a literal interpretation requires) then the Son is not good and we know that is not true.  So a strict literal interpretation is not what is intended.  So even though by nature we are not capable of good, once we are given the free grace of God we can do good.  The first thing we do when our free will begins to cooperate with this grace is to seek God and that in and of itself is a good thing.


It would help if you would use verse references when you want to quote scripture esepcially if your are going to do so from some non-standard translation as I could then show you what that verse means when read in context.  As it is I cannot find the actual verse to check the context however I am relatively certain that what we have hear is a verse that tells part of the story.

Just as John 6:29  "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." would seem to support the same idea we need only look to 1 John 3:23  "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment."  to see that John 6:29 is only telling part of the story.  The rest of what we must do to do God work is contained in 1 John 3:23.  They do not contradict one another - they supplement each other.  Once I know which verse you are referencing I will show you how the rest of scripture supplements it.  After all not all of God's wisdom and plan can fit into one verse now can it?


I do not disagree that we have to know our Father in order to be saved.  I do disagree that all we have to do to be saved is know our Father and your two verses do not say that it is all we have to do unless you read them in isolation refusing to let the rest of scripture supplement your knowledge of the issue.



I never said that salvation is based on some number of good works.  You are misrepresenting the doctrine of works and faith acting together to properly accept the free gift of salvation.


One can be thankful because one is saved currently, as long as one endures but final salvation is not assured until it is clear that we have endured and that is not determined until we die.  This is because accepting Christ does not take away our free will, and as we are still human, we can still fail.  


Those are two different questions.  We are made pure by the merits of Christ being infused into us through His sacrifice on the cross.

We are saved by our properly accepting the free gift (made available by that sacrifice) through our faith and works as it tells us in the scriptures.


Nothing Christians still get angry still envy, still lust we just don't do them unrepentantly.

Hello Michael,

"What do you mean by faith alone then if not a faith that is alone?"

By grace you have been saved through faith and by faith we have access into this grace in which we stand.

Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God and perform good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.  God according to his mercy, saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. Being justified by his grace, we who have believed should be careful to maintain good works that they may not be unfruitful.

Faith that does not produce fruit is dead.   There are no good works without us standing in grace by faith.

Faith is not a mental agreement it is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.  Faith is being fully assured that what he had promised, he is able also to perform. Faith produces fruit by the grace of God.

===

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, proof of things not seen.

Rom 4:20-21  Yet, looking to the promise of God, he didn't waver through unbelief, but grew strong through faith, giving glory to God,  (21)  and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 10:9-10  that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  (10)  For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom 5  (1) Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;  (2)  through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.  

Eph 2:8-10  for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,  (9)  not of works, that no one would boast.  (10)  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.

Tit 3:3-14  For we were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.  (4)  But when the kindness of God our Savior and his love toward mankind appeared,  (5)  not by works of righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,  (6)  whom he poured out on us richly, through Jesus Christ our Savior;  (7)  that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.  (8)  This saying is faithful, and concerning these things I desire that you affirm confidently, so that those who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men;  (9)  but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  (10)  Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning;  (11)  knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.  (12)  When I send Artemas to you, or Tychicus, be diligent to come to me to Nicopolis, for I have determined to winter there.  (13)  Send Zenas, the lawyer, and Apollos on their journey speedily, that nothing may be lacking for them.  (14)  Let our people also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they may not be unfruitful.

I still don't see you explaining the difference between faith alone and faith that is alone.  If you can't come up with a definition at least show me an example of faith alone and an example of faith that is alone so I might understand what how it is they are different.

As it is your discussion above seems to make the following points.

We are saved through faith and by faith we have access to grace.  Which I agree with but it does not say by faith alone or even by a faith that is alone.  So this statement and the verses it is paraphrasing does not seem to address the difference between these two concepts.

You say we are justified by faith and therefore we have peace and do good works, though I know of lots of scriptures that say we are justified a number of ways.  We are justified by grace (Rom 3:24), we are justified by doing the law (Rom 2:3), by our words (Matt 12:37), by humbling ourselves (Luke 18:14), by believing in Him (Acts 13:39) and by faith (Rom 3:28), and justified by works (James 2:21).  Of course these are just example and many other verses can be found to say these same things over and over again.  But the funny thing is none of them say that we are saved only by anything, especially not only by faith.  But there is one (and only one) verse in all of scripture that discusses the concept of being justified by only one thing, and then it is discussed in the negative – you know it – James 2:24  “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”  So justification says nothing about the distinction you want to draw between faith alone and faith that is alone.

Our good works are primarily the fruits of grace or the Spirit (Gal 5:22 and Eph 5:9) not of faith.  In fact of the verses that discuss fruits, our bringing them forth ourselves, is hinted at four times (Matt 3:8, Luke 3:8 and John 15:16) compared to faith, which is never even mentioned in relation to fruits.

But even if this was true (that fruits came from faith) the statements again say nothing about the distinction of faith alone verses faith that is alone because it does not identify the faith mentioned as one or the other.


None of these verses seem to say anything about the distinction between faith alone verses faith that is alone.  Perhaps if you offered an analysis or interpretation for these verses you reference I might more easily see what you mean by referencing them.

I can see why you don't believe in faith alone, Michael. You have ZERO faith in God that He can save you. You think He needs A LOT of help on this one. You instead, put your faith in men to save themselves. When asked by His disciples who then can be saved, Jesus replied; "With man this is impossible. But with God all things are possible." Again, you don't believe him. A true Christians would not disagree with ANY of Jesus's words, much less many of them. Your beliefs disagree with Jesus's words about what eternal life is, they disagree with his words that none of is good but God alone, they disagree with his words it is impossible for man to save himself, you diagree with his words that Hs true sheep cannot be snatched out of His hand, you disagree with his words that the Holy Spirit will be with us forever, you disagree with his words when he said that he can do nothing without his father, and perhaps many more. True interpretations come from interpretations where ALL of scripture agrees. I suggest you start with Jesus's words because that's whom you worship isn't it?

No I don't believe in the man made doctrine of salvation by faith alone because it did not exist until Luther came up with in in the 1500's.
 


No this is just you lying about my position again.  I have corrected you often enough by now that you have to know that is not what I am saying and so to continue to state it that way is to bear false witness against me.


I do believe Him, without God first offering the gift we could not be saved regardless of how good our works are or even how strong our faith is.  If it is anything alone it is not faith it is grace.  Faith is just somethign we do to accept the gift.  But that faith must be a living faith so it cannot be alone as faith without works is dead.


I don't disagree with Jesus' words I disagree with your interpretation of a limited subset of them.


Instead of making claims of my beliefs why not address them in the posts I make them in and then show the scriptures that contradict my doctrines?  I will tellyou why you don't do that.  Because everytime you try you are shown to be wrong, to have ignored other scriptures from the word of God, to have misinterpreted the word of God and to have lied about the other persons position.  So instead you choose to attack people in these vague paragraphs in the hopes you wont be caught in a lie.


Yes and I have been able to reconcile every verse you provide or reference with my doctrine.  You on the other hand have ignore post after post and scripture after scripture.  I am sorry that the word of God means so little to you.

Michael, Do you know what Jesus means when he said; "Now this is eternal life; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." He is VERY clear about it. Without adding or subtracting a thing from that phrase, do you know what Jesus says gives us eteral life?

Yes first I know that you do not try to form a doctrine form one verse in isolation.

Second I know that we must know Jesus in order to be saved, but this is more than just knowing that a carpentar named Jesus lived around the time of 33 AD.  It is also more than knowing that He is the Son of God.  It is also more than knowing Him in His role as sacrificial lamb.  We must also know Him as shepherd, ruler, king and vine.  To truly know Him we must know His teachings.  To truly believe in Him we must believe in His teachings.  His teachings tell us to properly accept the free gift of salvation we must have a living faith one that cannot be separated from works.

Do you really think that knowing Jesus is just knowing that He lived and died and rose again?  is that the type of limited relationship you want to have with the Lord?

Now one for you -

Do you know what Jesus means when he said;

Luke 18:18-22  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?  And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.  Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

He is VERY clear about it. Without adding or subtracting a thing from that phrase, do you know what Jesus says gives us eternal life?

Michael,
You have just added many words to that phrase which i suspected that you would. Jesus did not add anything to that phrase. he said; "Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." I was in an interdenominational bible study where EVERYONE except the catholics understood EXACTLY what he meant. They did not say yes but...or add their own interpretations. Jesus put NO conditions of that phrase. Again, "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent."  That's (eternal life, i.e.salvation) in a nutshell. That's all she wrote. But you disagree with him again.   You don't think that's enough.

Heidi,

Once again you fail to answer a direct question. Michael added absolutely nothing to the text. He wrote it out for you and you get stuck on your verse. It seems it is the only verse in the Bible for you. Even if a verse corroborated the one you use you would deny it, only because it is not the verse.

I would be interested in your answer here.

Only to explain what it means to know Him.  Were you able to answer any of the questions to the affirmative that I asked before I got to the point of including His role as shepherd, king, and lord?  If not then I clearly needed to define the word "know" for you.


He didn't need to add anything to it because He understood what it meant to know God.  But you clearly don't.


No what you mean is everyone there except the Catholic's misunderstood it the same way you do.


Understanding what it means to know someone is not a condition on knowing them.  


You can't put eternal life in a nutshell.


No that is all you wrote and you do not write or speak for God.

Since i do know God and have a personal relationship with Christ through the Holy Spirit, I have eternal life. You don't believe you do, therefore, you obviously don't believe Jesus!!!! You are adding the word "if" to His statement about knowing Him. We have eternal life IF.... not we have eternal life because we know him. As we grow in Christ, the Holy Spirit brings us more and more into obedience everyday. Some people will sit closer to the right hand of the Father and some won't. We can't ALL sit close to the right hand, Michael. What do you think determines where we sit in heaven? The very fact that not everyone will sit as close to Him as others SHOWS that some people's works will be more than others and they STILL enter heaven. Ironically, as  I posted in another thread the ones who are AWARE of their good works are boasting about them because they have to keep track of them in order to be saved!  But the genuine humble servant, doesn't keep track of his works because he does them out of love without the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing. Those works come from the holy Spirit. The works of the former person are done to gain honor for himself.

Knowing someone is not a condition upon knowing them? Do you even think? You either know someone personally or you don't.

Eternal life is LIFE FROM THE SPIRIT THAT NEVER GOES AWAY, Michael. It isn't earned or competed for. Eternal life is the life from Jesus Christ inside of us! That's why Jesus said; The kingdom of heaven is within you." Do you even know what that means? You disagree with him there also because you do NOT think it is in us. You think you have to earn it. Again, once you receive the holy Spirit inside of you, YOU WILL KNOW WHAT HEAVEN IS! Until then, you will always be striving for it through good works. Sorry, but when the owner of the house closes the door he will say, 'I never KNEW you. Get away from me, you evildoers!" The Pharisees thought they did good works also. Look where they are right now.

There is no difference between the two ways of saying this issue.  Other than one is spoken from pride (claiming to know somethign that is yet to be decided in the future and one is spoken out of Hope.


Our works determine what crowns or rewards we get in heaven, but you assume that is all they do and that is your mistake.  There is no scripture that says works are for rewards ONLY.


That is correct.  But those who do good works as a loving response to the free gift, do not boast of them.  I have never boasted to you of my works have I?  Catholics who follow the teachings of the Church properly do not baost of their works.  The one mistake you make is that these works come from the Holy Spirit as if they come only from Him.  They are also truly our works as they come from the cooperation of our free will with the Holy Spirit.


Where did you get that statement - I didn't say it you are once again misrepresenting my position just to make yourself look good.

What I said was - Understanding what it means to know someone is not a condition on knowing them.  

It is like understanding what the word chocolate means is not a condition on whether you like chocolate.  I did not place a condition on our knowing Him I was explaining what it means to know Him as you apparently do not understand this concept and that is why you do not really know Him or His teachings, as is evidenced by your misquoting scripture and your fear of providing interpretations of the verses you reference.


Prove it with scripture - I have shown several verses that prove we can lose our salvation and you just ignored them.  Tell me how does it feel when you have to ignore the word of God to continue to attack people and lie about them just to win an argument.


I never said it was - that is just you misrepresenting my position once again.


There you go quoting scripture out of context and trying to hide it by refusing to offer book and verse references.  Until you tell me what wierd translation you are using it makes it very hard to verify the scriptures you use (and I have to verify them because you get them wrong so often - sometimes never int he same way twice).  Please tell me what translation you are using.

Lets look at the verse you misquote again in its full context.

Luk 17:20  And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21  Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Luk 17:22  And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
Luk 17:23  And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Jesus is talking to the Pharisees who did not believe in Him and were testing Him trying to find out whent he end of the world was.  Jesus is trying tot each them not to worry about it, and to focus on converting themselves to be as little children, living their life in a way so as to be ready to fit in to that Kingdom.  That is how the kingdom of God is within us when our works (in loving response to the free gift) match the behavior of those in the kingdom.


No I disagree with your sophmoric interpretation that it is ONLY within us and that there is no fulfillment of it in the future when the end times and our final judgement await us.

The following scripture makes it clear that there is an aspect of the kingdom that is not yet come.  

Mat 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

The kingdom still awaits us.


No I never said that.  That is just you bearing false witness about me and what I have stated.  No one can earn salvation, but you have to understand that all works are not about merit.  Some are done out of love.  Do you love someone?  When you do something for them or obey the wishes of that person do you think you are meriting their love in return?  Of course not.  So you see not all works are about earning - some are about relationships.  To have a true loving relationship with Jesus you must obey Him and the Gospel.



There is a difference between doing good works out of love and thinking you are doing good works trying to merit salvation.  The latter is what the Pharisees were doing and that is why theywere unacceptable.  It is not just because they were doing works - it was because of the type of works they were doing and the intent behind them.

Well, Michael, Jesus uses the word "Know" instead of hope which you have inserted. Not only do you again not believe Him, but it is YOU who are twisting his words and inserting words of your own. If you cannot see that, then you truly do not have the capacity to be honest. The phrase "knowledge of God" is used all throughout the bible. You really do need to know the bible better than the catholic doctirine in order to understand what it means to be a Christian.

But you say we won't even GET to heaven without good works! Good works, according to you, IS how we are saved! That contradicts all of the NT and agrees with the Jews and the Muslims!

All I have been sayin ALL ALONG is that good works come from the Holy Spirit once we receive it, NOT in order to receive the Holy Spirit. All through Romans, Michael, paul talks about how we are SAVED by Grace through the holy Spirit, NOT by works. Works are a natural RESULT of the holy Spirit which is why they are called the "fruits of the spirit", not the fruits of ourselves.

Your statment that I just want to make myself look good is highly unfounded and a desire to hurt. I am intrested in the TRUTH and want to pass along Jesus's words. I could care less what you think of me and i hardly look Good to you and those who disagree with me. If i wanted to look good, Michael, i'd say EXACTLY what you want to hear!

I did not insert HOPE into His words that is just you lying again.  Christ in the verse you referenced was talking about knowing God, not about knowing you are saved.  My reference to the word HOPE was not about HOPING God (that makes no sense) it was about the Hope we have for salvation IF we know Him.  It was a completely different topic and you have confused the two discussions.


Yes and it is more than just knowing their is a God to know God.  

James 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

To know God or to believe in Christ is more than just acknowledging that they exist.  You have to know and understanmd their wills and what they have taught.  You cannot truly believe in Jesus unless you believe in what He taught and do it.


No I don't say that - the Bible says that.


James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


No I did not say that - that is you bearing false witness about my position again.  Don't you ever get tired of breaking God's commandments?

I said that we are saved by grace through faith (a true living faith) that cannot be separated from works.  Those works do not merit us salvation any more than our faith does but they are just as important, for you cannot truly believe in someone unless you believe and follow their teachings too, and Christ taught us to fulfill the spirit of the law through love.


The you are wrong.  Good works come from grace.  The gift of grace comes first, until then we are not even capable of seeking God, but once we have God's grace we acknowledge we are sinful, we repent and acknowledge we need a savior, we begin to seek that savior,  then we learn about our savior and His teachings, then we believe in that savior and His teachings, part of the belief is to decide to follow Him, He knocks and we open the door.  This is when we have the Holy Spirit enter into us.  Now we begin to cooperate with the graces God gives us to do good works and these works are the fruits of grace.  Up to this point all the good works come from our free will cooperating with the initial infusion of grace, not from the graces associated with being filled with the Holy Spirit.


Show me a verse where he says we saved by grace through the Holy Spirit don't just claim this as you have shown yourself to be very untrustworthy in quoting or interpreting scripture accurately.

Some works are a natural result of the grace we receive as the Spirit dwells within in us - but not all - as I showed above some are due to grace we receive prior to being filled with the Holy Spirit.


Then why do you keep purposely misrepresenting my position  in an effort just to win an argument.  I don't like being lied about anymore than anyone else would.

i already knew what you meant by the word, "hope", Michael. Instead of believing that by knowing God, we will have eternal life, you are hoping that have eternal life if you Know God. I simply believe Jesus's words. Knowing hims, which is also knowing God, gives me eternal life, period.

Many people know what their teachings are, Michael. Some  self-proclaimed atheists I know have acutally memorized scripture. When jesus talks about knowing, he is referring to knowing someone intimately. That's the ONLY explanation because virutally most people know about him and many know his teachings but don't believe them. when you have a personal reationship with a friend, is there an interpreter bewteen the 2 of you? Or do you relate to him on a one-on-one?  Which of the 2 friendships is a persoanl one?

If you believe that the bible says we get to heaven through our good works then you are contradicting most of Jesus's words. I will only quote a few of them. :"The kingdom of heaven is within you." "Eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus christ whom he sent.' "I tell you the truth unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven." "The work of god is this; to believe in the one he sent." "Come to me and i will give you rest." And now other scripture; Rev. 1:5, "To him who loves us and has FREED us from our sins by his blood..." Romans, 3:22-24, "This righeousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justifued freely by grace through the redemtion that came by Jesus Christ." It CANNOT be any clearer than that, Michael.

What do you think Grace is? You have shown that you do NOT understand the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit IS how we know Christ personally! It is why Paul could not "walk away" or the disciples couldn't walk away! Before he received the holy Spirit at penetcost, Peter ran away from Christ for fear of his own life. Then  when the Holy Spiit came at pentecost, he "suddenly" GAVE UP his life for Christ? Why do you think that is, Miachael? Just a coincidence? What suddenly changed his mind? Boredom? What in the world do you think grace is? You need to read the latter part of john when jesus talks about the Holy Spirit and what it does for us.

Michael, all through John, Jesus talks about being saved by the Holy Spirit. "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood, you will have no LIFE in you." Do you even know what that means? All through Romans and in Jesus's words, Jesus talks about life through the spirit, the spirit giving us life, the spirit giving us eternal life. What do you think he means when he says that eternal life is to KNOW him? Once we receive the body of Christ inside of us in the form of the Holy Spirit, we then KNOW CHRIST INTIMATELY. That is what he means! There are just too many to quote. You need to read them for yourselves, that is, if you're truly interested. I get the feeling, though, that you do not know what the Holy Ghost is. It is as in Gal. 2:20, "For it is no longer i who live but christ who lives in me." Once you understand that, you will understand what it means to eat His flesh and drink his blodd, what it means to KNOW Him personally, what he means when he says the Holy Spirit will be with us forever and that he lives in us and we live in Him, what he means when he says that no one can be snatched out of his hand, and most importantly, you will know what salvation is. There is just too much that you don't understand without quoting the whole gospel. You need to read ALL of his words in order to understand what he's saying.

Then why did you accuse me of adding to His word when you knew I wasn't.  You are just dishonest.


But you don't even know what it means to know Him - or at least you have ducked answering the question everytime I have asked it.


This personal relationship you are talking about happens when you know and understand the person's teachings and join them to your own life, not until.  So until we follow Him and obey the Gospel we do not have that personal relationship.


Stop lying!!!!  You know I do not say that.  I say we get to heaven due to the free gift of God we have to accept it through a living faith one which cannot be separated from works.


No actually I am not counting this as you quoting any of them as once again to hide the errors in your doctrine you quote them from some Bible transaltion you are apparently ashamed of and won't tell anyone what it is and you do not provide the references to the book and verse to slow people down in looking up your errors.


I have covered all of these previously and shown you the error in your interpretation.

The following one is new from you.

"I tell you the truth unless a man is born of water and the spirit he will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

It shows that we have to have faith (spiritual rebirth) and do works (baptism) to be saved.  This supports my doctrine not yours.

The other one you listed was:
"Come to me and i will give you rest."

Notice He never says when we will get that rest.  When we are saved (decided at the end of the last judgment) we will rest - until then we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.


Yes He had to free us from our sins to make the gift of salvation available – but we still have to accept it – that is what this discussion is about – how do we accept the free gift or have you forgotten?


It may be clear but you should not base you doctrine on a single verse in isolation and since I have shown you numerous scripture verses that show salvation is not by faith alone and you have yet to respond to a single one of them I would not be too quick to think this proves salvation through faith alone.

But lets look at the proper interpretation of it anyway (even though I know you will ignore this and not respond to the analysis preferring instead to launch another attack).

The verse says that all have sinned and do not deserve to be with God.  We are both agreed on that point.  It goes on to say that we are then justified by Jesus' sacrifice, in other words His perfect sacrifice made our redemption possible as a free gift by grace.  Now comes the point where we will disagree.  It says that we can be made righteousness through faith or believing in Jesus.  You immediately jump to the conclusion (because of how you have been indoctrinated) that this is referring to faith alone.  I interpret this faith (in order to be consistent with the rest of scripture) to be a true living faith – one that cannot be separated from works.  I interpret this believing in Him (again to be consistent with the rest of scripture) as meaning that we have to believe in Him not just as sacrificial lamb, but as shepherd and king and lord, requiring that we obey and follow Him, so that true belief too cannot be separated from works.

END OF PART 1

PART 2 OF 2


Grace is a supernatural help of God for salutary acts granted in consideration of the merits of Christ.


You are just making that up – show me the verse you get this strange notion from.


Grace is not the Holy Spirit if that is what you are implying with you strange story of Peter fleeing.


Yes it is talking about the sacrament of the Eucharist as I have already explained to you and provided verse references for and which you ignored.  Don't you eve get tired of ignoring the word of God?


I have already answered this several times and you have not responded to my answers except to change the subject or merely re ask the same questions.  Go back and read my answers and address them if you can.



This is utter nonsense – the second person of the trinity and the third are not interchangeable.  You do not receive the body of Christ inside you by having the Holy Spirit inside you.  Do you understand the trinity at all?  There are three separate and distinct persons in the Trinity you can't exchange one for another when it suits your whim.


He also said that Jesus will be with us until the end of the world and these two promises do not mean the same thing, which proves that eating the body of Christ is not the same thing as being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.



I have read them all several times and I have shown how my interpretations are consistent with all of them and you have not even responded to my interpretations.  Where as everyone of your strange doctrines I have shown to be inconsistent with some verse of scripture and you have yet to come back and defend a single one of them, preferring instead to generate new attacks and misrepresent my position.

END OF PART 2
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Oklahoma Howdy to All,

There is no "works Gospel", just the Gospel of the Grace of God. However, I see the futility of trying to convince those who practice and preach a works Gospel. We can simply agree to disagree. If there is belief and faith in Jesus as the Lord and Saviour, the believer will be saved even if they feel Salvation must be paid for. Grace is a gift and the GIFT was Jesus Christ on the Cross. Jesus Paid It All, all to HIM I owe. I would simply suggest going back to the basics and trying to understand why Jesus Christ was crucified on the Cross and what it means.

Romans 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

By the way, I'm not joining the debate because there isn't one. Everything is by, through, or in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour forever. Our assurance rests in HIM, not ourselves. The payment of HIS precious blood on the Cross was a perfect sacrifice, and "It is finished." In fact, it was finished over 2,000 years ago.

There are those who work because they feel that they must, and there are those who work simply from love and appreciation to our Lord and Saviour. Those that are not done simply in love and appreciation will be burned up.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Yup.  Can we put a great big PERIOD after that?

Amen, Bep!!

The Catholic Church does not teach a Gospel of works anymore than your denomination teaches a Gospel of faith.

Salvation is, as you so rightly pointed out, by grace.  So the true Gospel is one of grace, but the scriptures teach us that grace is accepted by faith and works together.


Those who understand the scriptures to see that the gift must be accepted by both faith and works do not see our works of loving obedience as paying for the gift anymore than you see you faith as paying for it.

But that is ok because those who think the gift is accepted by faith alone and think their works are fruits of their faith will be saved even though the don't properly understand the relationship of their faith and works.



What was finished 2000 years ago was the making of the gift available.  If it was also the acceptance or presentation and receipt of the gift then we would not have a role in our own salvation and we would all be saved, but that is not the case - so we must have a role in our own salvation, a role that takes place today for us.  That role is a true living faith one that cannot be separated from works.


I agree with this completely.  I would only add that those who feel we are saved only by faith and that even these works done simply from love are unneccessary and therefore do no perform them will not have truly accepted the gift and will not be saved.

Mark, 11:24, "Therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." That includes salvation. All you have to do is BELIEVE. There are many verses in the bible that says we are saved by faith alone, but this one is the best! Since you have a hard time understanding jesus's words, Michael, i'll break it down for you. "Therefore" means accordingly, consequently..." "I" means Jesus since he is the one talking. "tell" means "express in words". "You" means to all who are listening. "Whatever" means "What"(with the emphasis on indefinteness), "You" means whoever is listening, "Ask for" means "plead", "in prayer" means communion with God, "believe" means "accept as true", "that" means "the person or thing indicated", "you" means to whoever is listening", "have received" means it's already been given to you", "it" means the thing being discussed", "and" means "connecting thoughts, words, or phrases", "it" means the thing being discussed", "will be" means future action, "yours" means possession of whoever is listening." His words can't be any clearer. It's extremely hard to distort those words but I'm sure you'll give it your best effort because that's your intention.

First, you should never form a doctrine based on a single verse in isolation.  But more importantly this verse you chose proves my point not yours.   It does not say that all we have to do is believe.  It says we have to pray - prayer is an act of man it is a work.


If that is your best then you are in real trouble - but then we both know that because there is only one place in all of scripture that uses the words "faith" and "only" together and it says we are not saved by faith only.

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

There is only one verse that speaks of faith alone and it says that type of faith is dead.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No there are no verses that say salvation is by faith alone and there are plenty of verses that relate works to a proper acceptance of the free gift.  I have offered the list to you before and you ignored them, but if you ask and offer to provide your interpretation to each I will post them again.

Again, you had to omit some of Jesus's words in order to justify your interpretation. He said "therefore, I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED it, and it will be yours." The whole context in which this phrase was written has to do with FAITH IN GOD, which you don't have. If you had faith in God then you would KNOW if you believe he will give you what you want, you will have it. Again you have to add, subtract, or change his words in order to justify your interpretation. I again, believe them as they were written. By the way, praying to God does NOT come from the devil. Again, you are giving MAN credit for his faith which is pride at its worst!!

If you don't think this is a good example of faith then I consider that blasphemy. You have again demeaned Jesus's words to suit your own agenda. That passage is beautiful to me! It is NOTHING to you because you have dismissed it as simply Jesus saying that we should pray. You very obviously put blinders on during the phrase when he talked about believing that you have received it. But that's how you interpret the bible. By ignoring or twisting most of Jesus's words.

Since you don't believe Jesus's words in the above passage, you will again not understand how works COME FROM FAITH. Once we ask for something, Michael, the answer COMES FROM GOD. Why do you think Solomon asked for wisdom? If he could be wise by himself, he wouldn't have NEEDED to ask god for it!!!! Where do you think good works come from? The devil? From yourself so that you can boast? You LOVE to glorify yourself and other men! That is also the sin of pride which comes from the devil.  ALL of Paul's words have to do with good works coming from God, NOT from himself! That is HUMILITY, something you lack, which is precisely why I know your interpretation is NOT from the Holy Spirit!

I did not omit some of His words in my interpretation - you did in yours.

I freely admit that faith plays a role in our salvation - yes you have to believe.  So the part about believing I don't disagree with.  It is just not faith alone as you want to claim.  The part you ignored is the part about us having to pray.  We have to pray and believe.  We have to work and have faith.  I did not omit part you did.


No it comes from our free will cooperating with grace.


No you are denying man credit for his faith.  You are saying God gives it to man and that means God gives imperfect gifts.  Worse yet you claim God gives us such an imperfect gift that we can perfect it through our own works.

Jam 2:22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Some works do but not all - unless you can show me a verse that says that - but since you didn't even show me a verse that says some works come from faith I doubt you can.


Solomon's wisdom was different and greater than other men's that is what made it a special gift - not just that he had wisdom.
If all wisdom came from God then why would God destroy it?

1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.


The only thing you can boats over is works of the letter of the law, not works of the spirit of the law - that type of work allows no boasting because it is not done with the intention of meriting anything.

Duh!  My interpretation depends on EVERY word in that sentence. I thought the prayer part was obvious, but maybe not to catholics.  I focused on the belief part because that was the point of that sentence which is clear by the word: "therefore" which connects Jesus's previous sentence which is about having enough faith that anything's possible. Your interpretation, however, DEPENDS on EXCLUDING; "and believe that you have received it." No wonder you can't find a passage in the bible which talks about faith alone! You doctor each passage you encounter, including the above one! You don't believe it as written but have to add your own words to it. Pretty sad indeed!

So you are saying that prayer is required or not?  You say your interpretation is based on the whole verse so is it or is it not required to pray as well as believe to get everything you want including salvation?


No I don't exclude it I have always said that faith was required for salvation, it is just not enough alone as this verse proves.


Oh but I can find a passage in the Bible that talks about faith alone.

Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

It is you who cannot find a passage that talks about salvation by faith alone.

Where in that phrase did Jesus say that if we believe that we will receive anything we ask God for it will be ours is not enough?

THAT one! AND Romans, 1:16, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation for eveyone who believes: first for the jew, then for the gentile. For in the gospel a righeousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written; 'the righteous will live by faith." Romans, 8:1-2, "For there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Notice that Paul didn't say, "I am set free if I'm good enough." "Romans, 5:1-2, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus christ through whom we have gained access by faith into his grace in which we now stand." Are justified by faith or not? Which is it? Or are you going to add to Paul's words again? Romans, 8:9-10, "You, however, are CONTROLLED not by the sinful nature, but by the spirit, if the spirit of god lives in you." that is my point EXACTLY! ONCE THE SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN US WE ARE NOW CONTROLLED BY THE SPIRIT WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY NO ONE CAN SNATCH US OUT OF HIS HAND! But YOU disagree with Paul's words and either believe that once the holy spirit is in us, we are either NOT controlled by the spirit or that our sinful nature is stronger than the spirit, do you not? How can someone walk away if he is CONTROLLED by the spirit?

There are many more verses on faith. You need to read Romans and make sure that ALL of it agrees, not just passages that talk about works. Again, works come FROM  the spirit which is why they are called "the fruits of the spirit"! Once the Holy Spirit is in us, Michael, He will NEVER DRIVE US AWAY!

PART 1 OF 2


When He said we had to "ask for in prayer" as the first requirement and then told us the second requirement "believing".  See two requirements - easy.


Again with your verse slinging while you remain afraid to offer an interpretation - shame, shame.

The on top of that you try to formulate doctrine by ignoring all the verses that tell us works are required for salvation, so you imply an interpretation for this verse in isolation from the rest of scripture - which you know is wrong.  

Finally, tell me Heidi what do you think it means to believe the Gospel.  Does it mean we just have to believe that He died for our sins?  Or do we have to believe all the Gospel and have His law written in our hearts?  Dopn;t we also have to obey the Gospel to have truly believed it?  Otherwise we

Oh in case you have forgotten the verses I provided that show works are related to salvation, (you know the ones you ignored last time I gave them to you and the ones you are ignoring this time by implying the interpretation you are afraid to put in writing next to the verses you quote here), I will provide them again.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13
Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46
Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22  
Repent   
2Co 7:10
Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  
Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14  
Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30  
Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  
Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1  
Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21  
Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  
Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 4:17-18, 2 Thes 1:8, Heb 5:9, James 1:21
Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  
Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Tim 2:15, 1Ti 4:16, Rom 2:7
Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, Phi 2:12  
Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12, 1 Cor 6:11     


And that is not what the Catholic Church teaches either – you really have to stop purposely misrepresenting the doctrine I have explained over and over again to you just to make your own case appear stronger.

What is the law of the Spirit of life Heidi?

Lets see what Paul says it is.

2Cor 3:6  Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

How do we fulfill the spirit of the law to life?

Lets again see what Paul said.

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Obviously Paul is talking here about the law of the Spirit of life here because he would not be concerned with fulfilling the letter of the law now would he?

END OF PART 1

PART 2 OF 2


Yes we are justified by faith – but not by faith alone.  This verse doesn't say faith alone now does it – or are you going to add to Paul's word?  

The faith Paul is discussing here is a living faith not a dead one and so it must be accompanied by works.


Your implied interpretation is once again teaching that God takes back the gift of free will.  But most of your problem comes from that terrible translation you are using.

Lets look at the verse as it is presented in the KJV and you will see this issue of control is nowhere to be seen.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

I wonder where the translators got the word CONTROL SINCE IF YOU CARE ENOUGH ABOUT THE WORD OF God to look at the original inspired text you see that the word CONTROL doesn't exist in the text of that verse anywhere.


I have and I have provided my interpretation of the entire book for all to see and it is consistent with all the verses in Romans.  You have only implied interpretations to a few verses in isolation, refused to address those I suggest you look at (while I address everyone of yours) and your implied interpretation is not consistent.

Looks like your little walk down the Roman road took you nowhere.


Yes works are fruits of the spirit, not fruits of faith.  Faith too is a fruit of the spirit, but both of these fruits, faith and works, are also our fruits by cooperating with the grace of God.


That is true He doesn't drive us away – but He doesn't hold us prisoner either.

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Michael when i said that my interpretation in that phrase depends on EVERY words in His phrase, do you or do you NOT understand that that means prayer also. Did I say, EVERY word EXCEPT prayer, or do you not understand what the word"every" means?

You are hashing and re-hashing every argument we have ever had WIHTOUT understanding any of it. You have admitted that the spirit does not come into all Christians but only through the church. Therefore, you have proven Paul's words that "The man WITHOUT the SPIRIT does not accept the things that come from the SPIRIT OF GOD, for they are foolishess to him, and he CANNOT UNERSTAND them, because they are spiritually discerned." Until you discern the words in the bible from a spiritual mind, you CANNOT UNDERSTAND them. You contradict yourself incessantly, disagree with Jesus when he aid; "no one is good but God alone" and basically don't understand what it means to be born again of the spirit. Therefore, my words will fall on deaf ears. I KNOW the Holy spirit in me which is Christ living in me, so i know i have eternal life. You do NOT have that knowledge because you have said that the spirit does not come into all Christians. But Jesus sais that we CANNOT enter heaven without it.  But alas, that's your problem not mine. If you truly want to know what it means to be born again of the spirit, Michael, then ask GOD Himself for it, NOT the church, for God is the ONLY one who can give it to you. Otherwise, you're left with having to go other human beings who DO have the spirit in them to interpret the bible for you. Unfortunately, many people like David Koresh, SAY they have the spirit in them and their unfortunate victims who don't have the spirit in them either, can't spiritually discern who's telling the truth. So they pick the most dominating person or group. They are then under that person or group's control forever, instead of being controlled by the SPIRIT INSIDE OF THEM. Good luck and God bless.

Your claiming something and it being so are two different things as we have all learned talking to you.

You say that it includes prayer but then you deny that by saying salvation is by faith alone implying that prayer is not needed.


That is a lie.  I never said that as I have correct you numerous times.  I said that the Holy Spirit is in every Christian but that is not the same thing as giving them the ability to infallibly interpret scripture.  Scripture itself only gives that authority to the Church.


No I contradict your simplistic literal interpretation of that verse.

I ask you again - are you claiming that Jesus was not good?

You answered this once saying that because He humbled Himself He was exalted.  Which was just a non-answer ducking the question.

So I will ask you more directly.

When Jesus was humbling Himself, before He was exalted - was He good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not good?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not perfect?

Was there ever a time Jesus was not God?

If you answer yes to even one of those questions you are denying the divinity of Jesus.

Heidi - Do you believe that Jesus is God and always was God?

Answer the questions Heidi - all the questions - stop hiding from them - let people see what you believe in the light of day.

Opinions please: Forgiven for future sins?

Christ did it all PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE

Thank You Jesus

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

QUOTEAVBunyan


Try this on for size - Are you saved?  I'm assuming you are.  Then if you are saved then you are in Christ:

1 Cor 1:30  But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Eph 5:30  For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

You are in Christ (and you are if you are saved) and Christ is in heaven at the right hand of the Father, right?

Then if you are in Christ and Christ is in heaven then you are in heaven right now:

Eph 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So...stay with me here...when God looks for "fastback" He looks to His right and there sits Jesus Christ and guess who is there in Jesus Christ - you!!!

Question - is Jesus perfect?  Are you in Christ?  Then guess what?  You are perfect in Christ - that is how God sees you, He sees you perfect in Christ.

Now, to the issue at hand - can there be any sin or unforgiveness in heaven?  No, so guess what, you are forgiven in Christ!!!  Now, down here you are in a mess if you are normal like the rest of us saints.  But the real you (in Christ) is seated in heavenly places in Christ, perfect, without sin, forever!!!  This is how God sees the real you.  

Yes, you are allowed to shout on this forum - we are not all dead.  

P.S. - dont' be surprised if some joy-stealer will come behind this post and tell you you have to confess and beg for forgivenss eveytime you mess up - expect this.

May God bless

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Re-Posted By Brother Love :)

AMEN!!!!!!!

 ;D

Is Christ Going to die for your sins, or did He ALREADY die for your sins.  And since He DIED for your sins before you were born, weren't ALL your sins future sins?  

Brother or Sister, all of your sins were future sins at the time that Christ died.  They were all covered then.  The ones that you haven't even thought about doing have already been paid for.

Peace