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 The American military and the coalition forces have toppled two dictatorial regimes; first Afghanistan and next Iraq.
Now comes the struggle for a democracy to take hold in both countries.
 There's a very real possibility that the same thing will take place in North Korea as well as Iran and possibly Syria.

 The Bible states clearly that at the end times the anti-Christ (satan) will possess the body of a world leader and make a seven year peace pact with the world.
It seems convenient that these countries have either been conquered by the American lead forces or are now on the American hit-list.
 Could the Americans be paving the way for the antichrist to enter the scene?

This could be possible...

A few days ago, I heard that Bush wants to make a peace
plan with Israel. Sharon wants this to occur. It's said that
the peace plan should be three years long...

Interesting, isn't it?

 Yes, there's many very interesting things going on in the world these days.

What's next?

Problem being it's supposed to be a seven year pact not three.  That is if we are using the bible.

Yes, I realize it's a seven year deal, but it is really interesting that a deal seems eminent now for the first time ever. Sharon shocked the world yesterday by condemning what he called "Israeli occupation". Something is up, it's obvious. Put it all together...Dictatorships are falling and being threatened, Arafat actually ceaded power and Palestine has a prime-minister who is willing to work with Israel and the west, both sides have tentatively agreed to the terms of the American brokered peace plan which would see a Palestinian state in 2005. Things are moving along quite quick now.

I admit it IS interesting and I thought that when I first heard Sharon, (it's so hard not to say Sharon like a womens name) was ready to accept the peace plan on the news.  Although it's not the first time they've said that.  All it will take now is another bomber and they will change their mind again, I'm sure.

I just make sure not to get all wrapped up in this stuff.  I still have work to do for Christ.  So last night as always I was oon visitation.

God bless,
Jason

i think that is very interesting seeing that the peace the antichrist makes is supposed 2 last about that long.

lots of love from your brother in Christ,
                                                        Bryan aka: Bozz

Bozz quote...
i

Hello Bozz.
Ya, the deal is a seven year peace pact, which falls apart after three and a half years. There are very interesting events happening right now. This is a great time in history.

Welcome aboard.

Hello Bozz.
Ya, the deal is a seven year peace pact, which falls apart after three and a half years. There are very interesting events happening right now. This is a great time in history.

Welcome aboard.


yea i know. there is a lot of stuff going down, and we r seeing history in the making. thanks 4 the welcome. ill keep u in my prayers.

LOTS OF LOVE FROM YOUR BROTHER IN CHRIST,
                                                             Bryan aka: Bozz

hay
wheres this peace treaty in scripture?

Where is America in scripture?

    Dan 9:27   And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

One week, when used in Hebrew old testament script refers to seven years.

Good question Ollie.
There are some biblical scholars who believe there are references to America in the bible, although I can not recall specific verses. There are more general terms used which possibly could include America among many other nations such as ...

Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

Hi BronzeSnake
Thanks Daniel 9(27)
Are there any others. The reason i ask is ive seen many scriptures(not sure where) that say when they say peace, sudden destruction.

Hi Bronze
Been checkin on that scripture from Daniel. Are you sure thats not speakin of Jesus.

Hi W&S

Yes, I'm positive.
There are corroborating verses that should make it clear for you my friend.

Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

 
   
    Mat 24:14   And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.  
   
    Mat 24:15   When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  
   
    Mat 24:16   Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  

W&S quote...


The verse you are talking of is part of a pre-trib rapture verse.

   1Th 5:3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Who shall not escape? Escape what?
   
    1Th 5:4   But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.  

OK, so here it's apparent that Christians (bretheren) will not be overtaken.
   
    1Th 5:5   Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

Here we discover who will not escape...Children of darkness, unbelievers.
   
    1Th 5:6   Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.  
   
    1Th 5:7   For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.  
   
    1Th 5:8   But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  
   
    1Th 5:9   For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  
 Here it becomes clear what we will escape...God's wrath.

Hi Bronze
If ya really do believe in this rapsure thing, i have a few questions that need answering in apologetics. I asked that projax guy and he had no answers. Hope to see ya there.

Done my friend.

Ouch!

That's quite a blanket statement my friend.

Of course not all Americans, but rightly divided all evil "period" shall suffer for their unrighteous works.

Quote from Son of God yesterday at 2:42:31am:



??? So I suppose you aren't from the US. Well SOG, are you
from Canada?

Quote from the Comforter yesterday at 1:28:18pm:



American Government?

Hey, the G7. Could the G7 be the seven heads of Daniel's
Vision? Just a possibility.

1Th 5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
 :)

 8) Much to learn in little time.

Revelation 13 discussion at TCForums (http://thecomforters.wshost.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000026.html)

Seven Heads of Daniel - I must check that one...

In your service.

I'm feeling lazy tonight, because of a hard day.

The Identity of the 7 Heads and the 10 Horns on the Beast of Revelation 13
by Phillip Goodman

7 Heads and 10 Horns on the Beast: What Are They?

The Beast of Revelation 13 is described as follows:
   And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. Revelation 13:1
   The Beast of Revelation represents both a king and a kingdom, But the full meaning of the Beast can only be understood to the extent that we can understand the meaning of the features of the Beast, particularly the 7 Heads and the 10 Horns, which are the most prominent and consistent features according to both Revelation 13 & 17.

Can We Expect An Answer?

   We have what amounts to a prophetic and historic template in our quest for the identity of the 7 Heads and 10 Horns. I shall call it the "Greek Template." In Daniel 7 & 8 there are prophecies related to the Greek Empire. In the Daniel 7 prophecy, verse 6 tells of a Beast with 4 Heads. The prophecy in chapter 8 tells of a Beast having a large broken horn, followed by 4 Horns, followed by a single horn. Conservative prophecy scholars are virtually united in recognizing that both prophecies describe the post-Alexandrian Grecian Empire of the late fourth century BC. We shall find also that the Heads and Horns of the Revelation Beast relate to empires and rulers. Great light is shed on their meaning by the "Greek Template."
   Since most (but not all) of both of those prophecies about the Greek Empire have been fulfilled in history, and since the two prophecies combined apply the symbols of Heads and Horns to the unfolding history of that empire, then it seems reasonable to apply the Biblical and historic information gleaned from these prophecies as a basic "template" to aid in the identification of the Heads and Horns of the Beast of Revelation.
   Furthermore, since all of the prophecies of the Bible which have already been fulfilled, from those forecasting the fate of nations and empires to the Messianic prophecies, have been fulfilled just as precisely as predicted, then we should expect to find the same in both the past historical record and the historical "stage-setting" for future fulfillment. The Bible virtually guarantees as much when it says,
   "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure'... Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it. Isaiah 46:9-11
We should expect this prophetic precision to be applied specifically to empires and emperors and kings and kingdoms:

And it is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings... Daniel 2:21

    Here is my working thesis. The prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, which present us with such a prominent display of these symbolic "Heads and Horns" to reveal future history, portray for the most part the prophetic unfolding of history in broad and obvious strokes. For instance the statue in Daniel 2, to date, spans 2550 years of history in a relatively few short verses. Therefore we should expect that these predictions would also be broad and obvious in a scan, or "birds-eye" view, of history. Thus, the working out of these prophecies are more likely to rise to the surface in a survey, rather than a detailed study, of world history. And indeed, they do.

What Is The Meaning Of The Heads

   "After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it." Daniel 7:6

   As previously mentioned, most students of prophecy are agreed that this beast represents the kingdom of Greece after it was divided into four parts following the death of Alexander the Great in 323 BC. This agrees with the prophecy in Daniel 8 which also shows the four fold division of the Greek Empire in the form of 4 Horns on a goat, and specifically identifies Greece (vv. 21-22). In the case of chapter 7's 4-Headed leopard, then, the Heads are kingdoms.

   As we survey the four kingdoms of both Daniel 2's statue and Daniel 7's beasts-that is, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome- we find other references which connect the Heads to kingdoms. Where Revelation 17:9-10 says specifically that the 7 Heads of the Beast are "seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings," we can let scripture interpret scripture by going to Jeremiah 51:25 and find that the "mountain" described in that passage is actually a kingdom!-specifically Babylon. Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain, Who destroys the whole earth," declares the LORD, "And I will stretch out My hand against you, And roll you down from the crags And I will make you a burnt out mountain.
   The same result is found when checking out the symbol of the "great mountain" that struck the statue of Daniel 2 and destroyed it. The official interpretation that is given shows it to be the victorious and literal kingdom of Christ in verse 44. Thus the "Mountains" and "Kings" in Revelation 17:910 are seen as Mountain-Kingdoms elsewhere in scripture, with the further connection in the Revelation 17 passage to "Heads."
    We continue our search and find a definite identification of beast Heads with beast kingdoms in Daniel 7.
   Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast... and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head... Daniel 7:19-20
   Connect this verse with its angelic interpretation in verse 24, which says "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise..."
   There is a very important disclosure here. What is the meaning-rather, the "exact meaning"- of the 10 Horns that come out of the Head of the beast (Rome)? The answer is given. The Horns are 10 kings that arise out of "this kingdom." Whereas in verse 20 the Horns come out of the beast (obviously his Head), in the explanation the Horns (10 kings) come out of a "kingdom." The Head and the kingdom are equated.

A Consistent Identification Of Heads With Mountains With Kingdoms

   In summary, what have we found? When we look at the four kingdoms of Daniel 7 (with a total of 7 Heads- count them!), we find that Babylon is viewed as a Mountain-Kingdom, Greece has split into 4 Head-Kingdoms, Rome has ten kings coming out of a Head-Kingdom, and the whole lineup is followed by the great Mountain-Kingdom of Christ. That is four of the five kingdoms (4 earthly kingdoms, followed by Christ's kingdom), and six of the 7 Heads seen in Daniel 7!
   Therefore, in revisiting Revelation 17:9-10, a much clearer picture emerges: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, and they are seven kings...
   The meaning of the Heads is that they are Mountain-Kingdoms-that is, dominant kingdoms- upon the landscape of world history. The 7 Heads are 7 Mountain Kingdoms.
   CONSIDER THIS: The 4 Kingdoms of Daniel 7 have 7 Heads. They are Babylon, Persia and Greece-which includes 2 former empires, Egypt & Syria (Assyria), & 1 future empire, Turkey (Ottoman Empire)-& Rome. All reappear under the 'umbrella' of a re-emergent Rome in the End Time.

What Is The Identification Of The 7 Kingdoms?

   Remember when we said to count the Heads of the four beasts of Daniel 7? Here is another way to look at it. Take this passage from Revelation 13:1-"And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads"- insert the word "four beasts" in place of "a beast," and mentally paste it at the end of Daniel 7, verse 3. Here's how it would read:

"And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. And I saw [four beasts] coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads..."

   Now, when you take this description of the single beast of Revelation and apply it to the four beast of Daniel, and then read the ensuing descriptions of those four beast, you find four beasts "coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads." Again, count them. And remember that Revelation 13 applies certain features of the "lion," the "bear," the "leopard," and the 10-Horned fourth beast of Daniel to its own unified beast. The utilization of these same features confirms that the same 7 Heads of Daniel's four beasts are present in Revelation's unified beast.
   Therefore, since we know the identification of the Head-Kingdoms of Daniel's four beast, we can apply them to the Revelation beast. The 7 Heads of Revelation's beast are the Head of the Lion (confirmed by "his mouth like the mouth of a lion," v.2), the Bear (required by "his feet like those of a bear," v.2), the Leopard (with his 4 Heads dominating the beast, explaining why the beast "was like a leopard), and Daniel's 10-Horned Beast (since the 10 Horns are said to be on a single head, Daniel 7:20).
(to be contuined.)

The "Mirror Image" Of The Daniel & Revelation Beasts Images

   It is clear that the Revelation beast is a mirror image of Daniel's four beast. Daniel's four beasts-kingdoms have been combined into the unified beast of Revelation at the end time. But that is exactly what the prophecies teach. The world's kingdoms will unite into a single Antichrist-kingdom at the end of history. Whereas Daniel foresees his four kingdoms as a series of four snapshots through time, Revelation portrays the same 7-Headed kingdoms united into a single snapshot at the end of time. This is further confirmed in Daniel 2:35. There the four kingdoms depicted in the statue survive in some form throughout history, all four destined to be destroyed at the same time at the end of history.
   Since the Revelation beast is a mirror image of Daniel's four beasts, then it follows that we can learn the specific national identities of Revelation's 7-Headed, united kingdom from its "reflected" image in Daniel's 7-Headed, multiple, pre-unification kingdoms, especially when we take stock of our "Greek Template."

The Identity Of The 7 Beast-Heads Of Revelation

   CONSIDER THIS: There are 4 beasts in Daniel 7. One of them (the leopard/Greece) has 4 heads. We can surmise the other 3 each have 1 head-a total of 7 heads. Revelation 13 shows a composite beast, which includes all 4 of the Daniel 7 beasts. This beast also has 7 heads, & is said to look "like a leopard," which, as a 4-headed beast, would dominate the appearance of the Revelation beast (along with the 10 horns). Therefore, the 7 heads on the Revelation beast are the same 7 heads that are on the Daniel 7 beasts, & the identity of those heads (kingdoms) are known.
   It is generally accepted, with good reason, that the four beasts in both Daniel 2 and 7 represent the kingdoms of Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome, in that order, reflecting the order of their appearance. That accounts for four of the 7 Heads. The other 3 Heads are found on the Greek beast. Who are these 3 Head-Kingdoms? Here, fulfilled prophecy, or history, comes to our aid. After the death of Alexander the Great, as many as 13 sub-kingdoms and fiefdoms within his vast empire vied for power. But four dominant sub-kingdoms rose head and shoulders above the rest. These are the 4 Heads of Daniel 7's Grecian beast, and are also represented by the 4 Horns of Daniel 8. These kingdoms, using their geographic and political modern place-names, were,

1. Greece
2. Turkey
3. Syria
4. Egypt

   Therefore, the 7 Heads of the Revelation beast, being essentially a mirror image of the 7 Heads of the Daniel 7 beasts, are to be identified as follows:

1. Babylon- the "lion"
2. Persia- the "bear"
3. Greece- the "4-Headed leopard"
4. Turkey
5. Syria (Assyria)
6. Egypt
7. Rome

   All of these kingdoms are bound together by three common denominators: They were absorbed into the Roman Empire, they "tread under foot" not only Jerusalem but also the heart of the full Abrahamic-promised land which is Mesopotamia, and they bullied the Jews throughout history. At the end of history they will be united into the single "beast" kingdom of Revelation 13 and 17 to do likewise.

Where Are The 7-Heads-Or Mountain-Kingdoms-
Located On The Timeline Of History?

   Daniel 7's four beasts-kingdoms rule linearly, one after the other successively through time according to Daniel 7:4-7. And, from Daniel's prophetic point in history, there are four and only four human kingdoms predicted to dominate (remember, these 7 Heads are Mountain-Kingdoms) Mesopotamia and the land of Israel before the return of Christ and the establishment of the eternal fifth kingdom.
   First, the 4 human Mountain-Kingdoms,
   'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth, Daniel 7:17
   Then the 5th, Eternal Mountain-Kingdom,
   But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come. Daniel 7:18

   The Roman Empire, the fourth kingdom, would continue to exist in some form until its fatal encounter with the Kingdom of Christ, the fifth and final kingdom. But here we encounter, in Revelation 17, what at first sight seems to be a problem with the chronological account of the 7 Head-Kingdoms. That passage says,

... they are seven kings [or kingdoms, as we have seen; see Daniel 2:38-39 for king-kingdom dual reference); five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. Revelation 17:10

   Since the kingdom of Rome is John's reference in this passage, and since we have identified the 7 Head-Kingdoms with those of the 7 Heads in Daniel 7, then if we apply the 5 have fallen (before Rome and John's time) to the Daniel 7 passage, we find that we actually have 6 Heads in Daniel 7 (Babylon, Persia, and the 4 Grecian) that existed before the Roman Headed beast. The solution to this dilemma is again found in our "Greek Template."
   First, the Grecian beast (the leopard) is a single kingdom, even though it has multiple Heads (remember, Daniel 7 says there are only four kingdoms, Greece being one). Therefore, the 4 Heads of Greece are sub-kingdoms within a larger kingdom. The prophecy of the Greek Empire, as we've seen, parallels history in this respect. And two of those 4 kingdoms had previously in history qualified as Mesopotamian-ruling, Jew-dominating empires, or Mountain-Kingdoms. Egypt and Syria (Assyria) had already fulfilled that role prior to the rise of Greece. This accounts for the "5 have fallen" prior to Rome:

"Five have fallen"

1. Egypt
2. Assyria
3. Babylon
4. Persia
5. Greece

   Revelation 17:10 continues on to say "1 is." That of course was Rome. But notice that it continues on to say "1 has not yet come, and when he ["he"= king-kingdom identification] comes, he must remain a little while." Who is this 7th Head-Kingdom that would be destined to rise to Mountain-Kingdom status after the Roman Empire?
   Back to the "Greek Template," where we find that the 4th Head-Kingdom, unaccounted for thus far, is Turkey. Turkey at the time that John wrote the "5 have fallen, 1 is, 1 will come" passage had never entered the elite club of Mesopotamian-ruling, Jew-persecuting Mountain-Kingdoms. But later it did- as the super-kingdom known as the Ottoman Empire. They were [in 15-1600s] not only the most important Islamic empire, but the largest & most powerful European state as well.
 
   [Ottoman Persecution of Jews] World War I almost killed the Zionist movement... the Ottoman Empire sided with the Bermans, portending calamity for the Jews. To the Palestinian Jews it spelled physical disaster. Every Jew suspected of sympathy with the Allies- the knowledge of a little English was considered proof of sympathy- was hanged; 12,000 Jews were deported because they were not Turkish [Ottoman] citizens; and Zionism itself was declared illegal."
   And that is exactly what is required by the Revelation 17:10 phrase "1 will come," or, more precisely, "one has not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain a little while." Turkey is the Mountain-Kingdom that "will come," the 7th Head of the beast of Revelation. Throughout the sixteenth and early seventeenth centuries, the Ottomans were not only the most important Islamic empire, but the largest and most powerful European state as well. It was the greatest of the modern states."
   The rise of the Ottoman Turkish state from a regional power in Asia Minor in the mid-15th century to the greatest empire in Europe and the Middle East by the mid-16th was a dramatic one.
   But how can this be when Daniel's fourth beast is the final kingdom? Since Daniel's forth kingdom is Rome, this would also mean that Revelation's sixth Head (Rome) will be the final kingdom! (John looked backward from his perspective in the time of Rome to include not only Daniel's first three kingdoms in reverse time- Greece, Persia, and Babylon, but before Babylon was Egypt and Assyria; Daniel was looking forward beginning with Babylon)
   The answer is again found in the Grecian beast (the leopard of Daniel 7). In that passage you have 4 Heads-Kingdoms. Three have shrunk back over time to lose their former dominion as Mountain-Kingdoms (Greece under Alexander, Egypt and Assyria), but not their existence. Therefore, Greece is portrayed as a single Mountain-Kingdom subdivided into 4 parts. It never becomes 4 separate kingdoms. Greece is a single kingdom enveloping 3 additional subkingdoms which still retain their identity- in both prophecy and history, by the way- as Grecian. The picture before us is one of 4 Heads within a single kingdom.
   The same will be true with Rome. The Roman Empire, in both prophecy and history, also went, and will go, through a similar process of fragmenting and dividing, while never losing its identity or aspiration as the Roman Empire. Here is that splintering process of the Roman Empire that will persist right up to its final form as a Revived Roman Empire controlled by 10 Kings: First, the great Mountain-Kingdom was divided into eastern and western parts, as depicted in the two Roman "legs" on the statue of Daniel 2.
   "In AD 293, Emperor Diocletian decided.to shift the center of the Roman Empire to the east. The new state, [was] known as the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman Empire. Then the western half divided into 5 parts split up among the Germanic tribes who continued to carry the mantle of Rome. The German rulers saw themselves as the heirs of Rome.
    Subsequently Rome continued to retain a semblance of its identity as "Rome" during the era of the great Frankish ruler Charlemagne. Charlemagne unified western Europe & recreated an equivalent of the old Roman Empire...[his coronation by Pope Leo III] made him legally heir to the western Roman emperors..
(to be contuined.)

The Roman tradition of unity had never completely died out. Pope [Leo III] hailed Charlemagne as "Emperor of the Romans. Thus was revived a title which, changed later to "Holy Roman Emperor," was to last until 1806.
The next stage in the perpetuation of the identity of "Rome" in the western leg came through the Holy Roman Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was a successor state to the empire founded in 800 by Charlemagne, who revived the title of Roman Emperor in the West."
   The very name of the holy Roman Empire recalled the unity which ancient Rome gave to the classical world fifteen centuries earlier.
   The incipient Roman Empire continues today in its western leg in the form of the European Union, with the same 5 nations cited earlier continuing to dominate its existence. These 5 nations, Spain, Britain, France, Italy, and Germany, duplicate in history what the 5 toes on the western leg of the Daniel 2 statue foresaw- 5 dominant kings. Today in the European Union the majority of the voting block in a weighted formula in the European Parliament belongs to precisely these five countries. In the East, Rome retained its identity as the Mountain-Kingdom (Roman Empire) through the Byzantine Empire. In AD 293, Emperor Diocletian decided, for military and administrative reasons, to shift the center of the Roman Empire to the east. The new state, known as the Byzantine, or Eastern Roman, Empire.  The Roman emperor Constantine named his capital [at Byzantium] New Rome. Throughout their history the Byzantines described themselves as Romans, and saw their empire as the continuation, without break, of the Roman Empire. Then, after a thousand years, the Byzantine Empire gave way to- the Arab-Mohammedans? No. As great as that Islamic Empire was, it was never absorbed into the geographic, political, or cultural environs of the Roman Empire. The Arabs did not qualify as the 7th Head.
   Did the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire give way to the other super-kingdom that arose after the glory days of ancient Rome, that of the Mongols. No. For neither did the Mongols qualify as the 7th Head. They too were alien to the Roman sphere of dominance.
   In the Eastern Roman Empire, the successor state to Byzantium was Turkey. Not Turkey as we know it today, but Turkey in its glorious reign as the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire qualified indeed as the 7th Head- the 7th Mountain-Kingdom!
   The Turks [Ottomans] were among the great imperial powers of history. Theirs was the last in time and the greatest in extent of the four Middle Eastern empires, following those of the Persians, the Romans, and the Arabs, the Ottoman state was above all else a universal empire. The Ottoman Empire was one of the largest political structures that the western part of the world had known since the Roman Empire disintegrated: it ruled eastern Europe, western Asia and most of the Maghrib, and held together lands with very different political traditions, many ethnic groups- Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Armenians, Turks and Arabs, and various religious communities,  Sunni and Shi'i Muslims, Christians of all the historic Churches, and Jews. It maintained its rule over most of them for 400 years or so, and over some of them for as many as 600 years.
     One and only one kingdom rose to Mountain-Kingdom status after the primacy of the original Roman Empire, and, importantly, within the geographic sphere of that empire, to carry forward the tradition of Rome in the eastern leg- and that is the Turkish-Ottomans. The Ottoman Empire inherited the mantle of the Eastern Roman Empire- the Byzantine Empire- and carried it forward into the 20th century. In 1453 it the Ottoman Empire absorbed what was left of the Byzantine Empire. The Ottomans had changed from a nomadic horde to the heirs of the most ancient surviving empire Byzantium of Europe. The Ottoman's achievement was to reunite the Byzantine empire under a single sovereign. The Ottoman empire, which reached its height under Suleiman the Magnificent, was far stronger than any European state. They were the missing link among the former Mountain-Kingdoms in the 4 Heads of Greece because their hey-day had "not yet come, and when he comes, he must remain a little while," 470 years to be exact. Turkey- the placeless 4th Head on the Grecian beast of Daniel 7- achieved its Mountain-Kingdom rank to the level of the other 3 Grecian Heads later in history, causing it to become the 7th Head of the Revelation beast. (Note: The issue of the beast himself, who is "also an eighth Head, and is one of the seven, "Revelation 17:11, is answered in depth in my book the Assyrian Connection.

Does Rome Continue To Exist

    As we have seen, history follows in the fore steps of prophecy, testifying that the eastern leg of Rome itself continued on from the Byzantine to the Ottoman Empire. No Bible believer should be surprised that these various divisions and fragmentations of the Roman Empire show up in history. For they were first recorded in prophecy.
    The statue of Daniel 2, in its Roman "legs," which represent the first division into east and west Rome during the fifth century, continues to shatter into "iron and clay" parts, not only in the feet stage, but in the "toes" stage, and then further into 10 toes.
    These dividing stages are also evident in Daniel's beasts in chapter 7, where Rome sprouts 10 king-kingdoms matching the 10 toes of chapter 2, and then further sprouts an 11 king-kingdom (the Antichrist) matching the "8th Head" of Revelation 17:11. But in both Daniel and Revelation, Rome- the 4th beast and the 6th Head-never ceases to be Rome.
    We see then, that from what we know of the Greek 4-Headed "Template," the rise of a subsequent Head-or Mountain-Kingdom- as a sub-sector of the Roman Empire, is not only a cut out of the Grecian mold of Daniel chapter 7, but is a fact of history. The Ottoman Empire did not replace Rome. It perpetuated the eastern half-the "Grecian," territory and culture- of Rome. The Ottoman Empire filled the void left by the decline and fall of the Byzantine Empire.

   The Ottoman Empire, the 7th Head, the 7th Mountain-Kingdom, existed within the fragmented but perpetual Roman Empire as both a phase of the old empire and a link to the coming Revived Roman Empire, just as the 4 Head-Kingdoms of Greece perpetuated that empire as a single "beast-kingdom." The Ottoman Empire did not supplant Daniel's 4th and final Mountain-Kingdom- or Revelation's 6th and final Mountain-Kingdom. The prophecies do not allow it. History does not support it.

Who Are The 10 Horns?

   We have seen that from early on, the breakup of the Roman Empire resulted in 5 dominant states emerging in the west from the Germanic invaders.  There appeared in the western empire what has been called a 'horizontal' continuing division' which was to remain in other forms until our own time. In Germany, England, France, Spain and northern Italy, barbarian kings ruled, although the sense of belonging to the Roman Empire still existed.
   By the ninth century, in the treaties of Verdun and Meersen, these 5 sub-kingdoms, matching the 5 toes of Daniel 2's western leg, had taken on the rough shape of modern Europe.
   The unity which Rome had imposed was shattered forever. In the West, the Germans had set up new kingdoms- Visigoths in Spain; Franks in Gaul [which, under the Treaty of Verdun in 843, became the forerunner states of France and Germany]; Angles and Saxons in Britain; Lombards in Italy. At Meersen (870 AC), the familiar outlines of Europe began to take shape, and thus these five nations came to be the dominant nations of Europe today. They are,

1. Britain
2. France
3. Spain
4. Italy
5. Germany

   The dominance of these realms in Europe since the breakup of the Roman Empire, and their eventual evolution into modern states which still exert their collective will on the European Union, fits perfectly well the historical correspondence we would expect. They have set the stage in the western leg for the emergence the 10 Horn-Kings predicted to rise at the end time. But what about the eastern leg? Which nation-states will fulfill the 5 remaining Horns (or toes) in the eastern part of the revived Roman Empire?
   First, the 4 Heads on the Grecian leopard in Daniel 7 and the 4 Horns on the Grecian Goat in Daniel 8 refer to the same 4 breakout kingdoms in post-Alexandrian Greece. Thus, both the Heads and the Horns designated the same 4 sub-kingdoms- Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt. Heads and Horns are used interchangeably in the prophecies. Since the emphasis in both Daniel and Revelation is on the eastern half of the Roman Empire (that is, Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Turkey, all playing a prominent role in the visions of the final Roman beasts, were enshrouded within the eastern realm of Rome), then surely these beast Heads will be represented in their end time stage among the 10 Horns.
   Therefore, it is a reasonable expectation, based on the "Greek Template," that the Horns in the east (toes on the eastern leg) will represent those end-time kings who rule over the later day versions of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Turkey.
   Daniel 8 presupposes just such a configuration. In that passage it is predicted that the 4 Horns of the Grecian goat (again, Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt) will have an encore reign at the end time, even playing a major role in the rise of the Antichrist .The passage refers to "the latter period of their reign." "And the broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms [Greece, Turkey, Syria, & Egypt] which will arise from his nation, although not with his power. And in the latter period of their rule..." Daniel 8:22-23
   CONSIDER THIS: It is AT THE END TIME THE 4 GRECIAN KINGDOMS REAPPEAR - "understand that the vision concerns the time of the end...I am going to tell you what will happen later in the time of wrath, because the vision concerns the appointed time of the end... In the latter part of their reign...but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future." Dan 8:17, 19, 23, 26
   Amazingly, these very same kingdoms-Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt- were the dominant breakout kingdoms at the demise of none other than the Ottoman Empire. By the end of World War I Syria, Egypt, and Iraq emerged semi-independent under the British and French mandate system. The wrap up of World War II assured the final status of all of them as sovereign states. The Ottomans conceded Greek independence in 1832. In 1920 the Ottoman empire was dismembered: Syria... Lebanon... Iraq... Palestine... the Hejaz and Armenia... Anatolia... Turkey
   In 1923, by the Treaty of Lausanne, Turkey surrendered only her remaining non-Turkish territories (chiefly Arab [Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc.] ) but retained her Turkish areas: Constantinople and Asia Minor. [modern Turkey] Turkey, no longer an Empire, was now reduced to a national state.
    All of this is clearly far more than mere historical coincidence: Let's take stock. Ancient Rome splits off in its eastern sector as Byzantine Rome, with Byzantium's mantle passing to the Ottoman Turks (as the 7th Head), which then splinters into dominant states in Greece, Turkey, Syria, and Egypt among several lesser realms.
    Add to this lineup of eastern "Horns" those of the required Babylon and Iran (Persia), and there emerges 6 eastern Horns. Isn't this one more than the required 5 Horns, or toes, in the eastern sector of the emerging Revived Roman Empire? Not at all. It's time to count again. Count the Horns in Daniel 7's passage.
   And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up... Daniel 7:20
   There are 10 Horns- plus an 11th- who it turns out comes us subsequently, but contemporaneously, and emerges as the Antichrist.
    Thus, there are in fact 10 Horns, plus an 11th, representing in prophecy and in both past and emerging history the following nation-states which will make up the political constituencies of an expanded European Union, or Revived Roman Empire. Represented among these 10 Horns are the 7 Heads, or Mountain-Kingdoms (reckoning the Roman Head as represented in the western leg nations) which join into a single union of nations to form the beast of Revelation:

1. Britain
2. France
3. Spain
4. Italy
5. Germany
6. Greece
7. Turkey
8. Syria
9. Egypt
10. Iraq
11. Iran

     The political and geographic landscape looks very familiar today for anyone who has studied these prophecies- He is the God who "removes kings and establishes kings..." Daniel 2:21
http://focusonjerusalem.com/theidentityofthe7.html

 8) Wheew that is a lot!

The problem is that it is easily destroyed by the Truth.

From the name of Blasphemy, to the simple fact that all of these kingdoms you have taken the time to interject into a dead beast, have no power today. There is but one Super Power and one Organization that will soon rival it.

I suggest you try again and see what World Order does include the many powers you have described and also learn when scripture has actually described different things.

The seven kings are in and of themselves separate and serve to mark a section of time early in the development of the World order. But they are also hinted about with the tale of a bear with three ribs in it's teeth. You know five have fallen, and the eighth is of the seven. Five from eight equals three? Bear? Check your history a little closer to now.

The test is to see if we can.

Three examples of the one that was, and was not, and yet is.

1.
The UN was a world power.
The UN was told to stand down by the US.
The UN will soon be very rich by loans through the Monetary fund and World Bank and with the slightest bobble in International currency will rule currency exchange and value. The US made a critical mistake when they shipped their industrial base out of the country. It made then vulnerable.

2.
After five of the leaders had come and gone, we can find a time frame as of late when Russia had a ruler who got sick. He was the sixth and he got very ill. He was replaced by another temporarily until he was well and he then returned to power. Russia then failed and even banks closed starting a wave of troubles they have not yet recovered from completely.

3. The computer was the largest and most actively growing industry prior to 2000. The millenium scare almost killed it. Afterwards it has grown less but has become firmly rooted in American as well as the worlds culture and means.

All three of these are found within the portion of the tale you have spent all those words working around. And when scanned they provide an actual time frame you can see that contains past, present, and future. Now we are looking at Truth and seeing what time it is. And if truth we can watch and see if the next portion revealed comes to be in order and on time. This is Revelation and the will of the Lord who gave it.

Now.

Why would a clip from one scene be tossed into a clip from another scene?

In order to hide what the Lord intends to reveal in the last days we are told of the method.

John is told to take the book, and eat it up, and what is sweet upon his lips is to be bitter in the belly. He has taken the tale and mixed it up, and what is sweet (revealing and easy to understand) has been made bitter (hard to understand and scarey). This also carries through to the entire bible. Just lighter than Revelation.

I have also noticed slightly altered wording in the bible references used. Please do not attempt to decipher scripture via slang or altered text. Hebrew to start, a little Greek and such if you can read the original scriptures, and The Original King James Version of scripture must be used if you are to have any chance.

You see the UN is the 7-10-10 and the link provided above can fill in the blanks well. This is a prophecy for our day, and not some long drawn out sterile vision of days past. Shame on all who profess to know for stature and in the endeavor mislead others with false doctrine.

I can reveal the portion of scripture described in few words.

The UN will soon come to great power and after a colapse in the marketplace, will use the computer and the world wide web to regulate wire and none paper currency exchange globally. The US will be faced with singularity or compliance. The mark is a card and secret numbers, or a web site to visit, or a web-site of your own to try and sell through. Of course each is important as you don't need a web-site to physically go to a shop but you would then have to have the same item and secret code no matter which method you chose. It is further resolved that the name of the beast in control is the sixth letter of the Hebrew Alphabet and what better langauge to use than your native tongue when the Lord gave us the WWW. We can further deduce that the UN is the name of blasphemy as UNanything blasphemes that thing into it's complete opposite.

Rich - UNRich, Worthy - UnWorthy, - etc...

I have revealed more of current and factual revelations, sent in advance by the Lord, than 2000 years of study in this few moments. And here is the best part. You can look, see, and watch as the picture I reveal grows into reality and comes to be. Scripture came long ago for a time in the future called the last days. It is for, about, and contains those days with a sprinkle of yesterday for good measure. (In one generation these saying shall be proved, I come that you may know the truth, unto all things there is a season)

Why would anyone prepare a tale of yesterday only, to explain a prophecy for the end times?

What do you do when it doesn't fit?

Pieces of the Lord's Puzzle...

Seven heads, ten horns, ten crowns.
The key of David.
Three sixes.
Woman clothed with the sun.
Woman clothed in scarlet.
The Mark.
Seven Kings.
Daniel's four kings and another.
Michael.
Another Book.
The Altar.
Man Child.
Mystery Babylon.
Little horn.
He goat.
Four Horsemen.
Seven seals.
And the list goes on and on...

We don't need no yesterday, and trust me, this is what has come and gone. We need today, and look, you can see it all right now. That is, and was, and will be the Lord's mission when He laid out the Truth that is to be revealed at the end. And with scripture rightly divided you can see a clear picture of the day His are told to prepare for. Not a fuzzy picture of the past.
 
In your service.

Come see me, and we can walk the path which is Truth.

In order to know the future you have to know the past, theComforter.

I agree DW.   Seeing as how the statue represents Kingdoms that were to rise and fall, there is no reason for the theme to end at the 2 feet and toes.

Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Observing how the other kingdoms rose and fell is a good lesson not to be overlooked.   I am sure the UN will play a role, I am sure computers will play a role, but I am also sure Kingdoms or Nations will play a rule, just like Daniel explains.  To ignore history, is to ignore proofs we already have to interpret future proofs yet to take place.   If America plays a role in endtime events, I am hard pressed to find it in scripture.  Personally, I see America currently standing in the way of a one world government, but that could change by a number of possibilities.

Grace and Peace!

 8) Scripture on America?

Revelation 12 is a perfect outline and the old teaching of it describing Jerusalem falls short on several levels. At the time of the writing it is said to appear in heaven not yet even upon the earth and Jerusalem was long since seen. The easiest and best way to see the woman is to realize scripture describes a woman a dragon and a bear...

There are but three super powers in recent times, can you name them?

In reading pay close attention to key elements that no scholar can ignor...

The Moon is one symbol for Christ and His works ( it is established as the moon forever. The lessor light to rule over darkness and we are the darkness ) but all things are beneath His feet.

There are two women and one is in the midst of the other and described as a great city which rules the kings of the earth. There is but one and they just told the rest of the world to stand down to prove it.

I also believe that one "must" know history to be lead to the Truth. As long as along the way they move foward and do not get stuck in the past. My point is that no matter what you "think" scripture is describing living events that fall into place for the finder and the events are found in the last days. Ever one of them.

A lot more on the Woman of many waters (http://thecomforters.wshost.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000008.html)

The USA is not only found but is central in the events of the last days.

Come into today gang, and see what is written after you close the books. It is all around you!

If you just know where to look.

John.

And the EU will play a role, I believe. I know that several Europeans here, at Christians Unite believe that as well.

It could change by this election coming up as you know. Having a disbeliever in the White House, could prove to be a disaster for all Christians in the USA.

Rev 12:1  And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Pssst.  Let me show you a secret

Gen 37:9  And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Gen 37:10  And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?
Gen 37:11  And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

Joseph his 11 brothers, Father and Mother, are the patriarchs of Israel.   The Sun the Moon and 12 Stars....The woman of Revelation 12 is Israel.

If thats not enough to convince you read on...

Rev 12:2  And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3  And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4  And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There can be no mistake who this manchild is....Jesus Christ.  America was not the nation in which the saviour came into the world....it was Israel.  And fitting that the symbols used to describe the woman would be symbols that Hebrews could identify with.  Jacob - the Sun, Sarah,- the Moon, and their 12 sons= the 12 Stars.   The family that the nation, (woman)Israel, came from.   Fitting America into this passage is a stretch IMO....but you are welcome to your opinions.   And all this from history too!    ;)


I took a peak at this thread.   While I admire some of the passion presented here, I still see no rock hard scriptural evidence for making America Mystery Babylon.

Rev 17:18  And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

This verse alone makes it hard for America to fit the mold.   We were barely able to drum up support to go to war in Iraq, much less reign over Kings of the earth.   We are not very popluar right now, and don't appear to be getting anymoreso in the near future.   Suffice it to say, there are much much better fits than America in the world at this time.   I think  mystery Babylon represents a false religion as well as physical city.  I'm not positive but I will not go into that here, because its a hot topic of recent times in these parts.   ;)   I am fairly positive its not America though.   IMO America is already on the decline.  I feel we will either be obsorbed into the one world order, or be brought to mediocrity by some un-forseen events.

Grace and Peace!

The city is surrounded by 7 hills, and is in Europe. Later the city will be destroyed by Wormwood. I won't name the city either 2T. As far as America goes I believe that most of America will be destroyed, in WW3. when 3 nations rise up against the anti-christ.

 8) If only your examples would hold up.

I believe the example you gave from Genesis was nice but it in no way even claims to connect to the portion of Revelation in question. At best it would indeed be as you declared and at worst a stumbling block.

And as far as a man child that shall be caught up unto God you have forgotten of the one to be sent by the Lord from the Father. And the Lord will not rule all nations at His coming because they shall be destroyed and but one kingdom shall remain.

In wisdom and from experience I will not build nor add onto this further because first you would have to explain all the portions of your theory that fail using Israel as the woman.

The woman that rode in on the beast is indeed the USA riding in on the UN when it was even young with 7 - 10 - 7 instead of 7 - 10 - 10 in it's youth. In your example Jerusalem would become the great city and would be the whore of Babylon. (blowout)

You are going to find that the more you try to prove your theory the more you will actually disprove it.

Revelation 12 is indeed the USA.

And tell me...

This Mystery Babylon you keep mentioning, are you talking about the parable - Mystery, Babylon, The Mother etc...?

If so it is even more simple than you think, but I am not sure you are talking about that parable.

There is no portion of scripture too hot to handle and you will find that after hammering out a portion it suddenly fits perfectly to another, and another, and another in todays events and times. History will find you seeking what has been. Prophecy is for today.

Meanwhile, unto each his own and may we answer only unto Him.

(I am still smiling from you claimimg Jerusalem rules the earth, I live in the present and only DC is doing whatever they please even as we speak)

Ain't Truth grande?

Peace.

Sorry, I about spit up my coffee when I read this.   Ummm, have you taken a look at Rev 19:5?

Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


BTW, this is at his grand return!   Seemingly fulfills Psa 2:9


Now let me show you some history in reverse, as in the future....

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Are we agreed this will be the millinium?

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here we are, ruling and reigning with Christ
 
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired (that is AFTER the 1,000 years), Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Behold, nation(s)!   So here we have it in black and white...Every nation is not destroyed at Christ glorious return.   Only those who worship the beast.    



You are not alone in your view here TC.  There are many who don't see the woman of Rev 12 as Israel.   While I am open when it comes to things that are not clear, I am pretty convinced about this one because scripture backs it up.


Rev 12:5  And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

There can only be one manchild who who fulfills this prophecy along with Rev 19:15 and Psa 2:5.   There is no other who can.   Seems to me you've got a lot of reconsiling to do to have America giving birth to the King of Kings.



I'm still puzzled as to how you are making the women of chapter 12 the harlot of Revelation 17.   One is protected by God, yet the other is destroyed.    ???



All the dots seem to connect nicely when we use the word as our source.



Rev 17:5.



Amen!




Prophecy is for all times.  Its evidence of fulfillment in history past shows us how easy it is to missunderstand what WE think is going on in the present.  Israel missing the messiah the first time around is a prime example of that.   A crucial history lesson.   History's fulfillment of prophecy also teaches us that Gods word is the one and true Authority.




I don't think I ever said Jeruselem rules the earth.  I just said Jerusalem was the woman of Rev 12.   Glad your smiling!  I smile a lot too.  Did you know it takes more facial muscles to frown than it does to smile?   :)



Amen to that brother!

Grace and Peace!

First may I say that this is fun, And no matter what, I can see exactly where you have gathered your belief.


You are not connecting the dots. John is given a rod like unto a reed, and Christ is never cast into the winepress which is described, as there is but one that runneth to and fro. You see the winepress is the symbol of judgement and "knowing" the very things we are now discussing (and I give unto you New wine) and there is but one who has seen and shall prophecy again. Christ is the one that will cast the fruit into the press, John is the only one who knows. (and in that day not one shall know the truth) Ever wonder why the word Blod is used as coming from a press designed for wine? Written in Blood means carnal fact. And while carnal facts flow from those who thought they knew, no wine or spiritual facts are mentioned at all. Real Blood will never run bridle deep to a horse it is to say that the rider will be up to his knees in sterile facts.


Now we are getting somewhere! "I shall send unto thee..."
And let's look at the rest of that reference to back up what was said above about the winepress.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


[qoute]
Now let me show you some history in reverse, as in the future....

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Are we agreed this will be the millinium?

No.

The millennium crossed time in the year 2000 and will again appear in the year 3000. And while the reign of Christ will indeed be 1 thousand years or "a" millenium it actually does not coincide with "the" millenium.


Here we are?

You see there are those who have been good and worthy from the start, and there are those who have not, but who did come to prefer righteousness over temptation. And while the rewards for the difference will only be to have those who understand how hard it was and how righteous one would have to be to look up to the effort and stature, those who reign with the Best (The Father and the Son) are those who were not perfect but who were at all times righteous.

Rev 14:
4. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.



 
Oh you are good, but again it does not hold up.

And He said unto them, " Go not out of the city ".

And you are refering to the time of judgement and afterwards when His are gathered and separated from the rest of the world, and there is nothing they (those left out) can do about it. They know because the second death (which is the death of the spiritual wisdom man has long enjoyed) comes just after they know they do not have a chance. Imagine the outrage and anger to finally know you are not and will never be one of the wheat. The only time this is certain is at the end of the 1000 years when you become as the carnal man and lose the wisdom of the spirit that brought Adam to his feet naming and knowing and different from all the rest. Of course during the reign there are still carnal men outside the city doing everything they can to get in, but they are own their own. And if you knew "God" was right next door would you understand why evil was in check for a very long time?
 


Actually it does not.

Israel saw it's inhabitants and it's honour cast unto the furthest nation to return at the end of days. Sometimes you can understand best by simple wisdom. Pick up a globe and run a sword through it and see where it comes out.


I like that.

But again not knowing is the hardest part of seeing. You seem to intentionally overlook the coming of the one to prepare the way. From two angels with a sickle, all the way to prophecy before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings (here is where I mention the hint that the waters are many peoples and tongues etc, and she rules over the kings...) Elias truely shall come first, and they knew He meant John? Where have you put all of the scripture that reveals the events prior to the return of the Lord?

A "little book" - or - another book was opened...

Learn thee the parable of a fig tree, while ( His Branch )?

Learn thee a parable of the fig tree, while ( Her Branch )?

This is no mistake. It is one of the biggest hints provided by the Lord of the meaning. He sends him from the Father, he is borne unto the woman of many waters. And yes, while it may be hard to understand and believe I can share the biggest hint of all. There are three that bear record of heaven, and the Revelation of Christ is given unto John - who bear record. And when the Comforter comes whom I shall send unto thee - The Comforter is the Holy Ghost - Blasphemy of Christ is forgiven but blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is not - I can not figure out what you have done with large portions of scripture that will clearly show you that the one to come first and to Rock the world is not Christ. Of course sadly most of the rocking is to make them mad. Not on purpose but who are you to tell me my belief is faulty? (You understand) But what if one comes and tells it like it is meant and the entire world says NO WAY! And then Christ comes - like a thief - and says it was Truth. How embarrassing and hard to deny...


Two women. Not the same woman. In 12 the beast is identified and in 17 again. In 12 the beast wants the child and makes war with the remnant of the womans seed. (The people are the seed of the Nation) In 17 the great city is stained with the blood of that seed, drunken. And the city is doomed because it turns it's back on it's own. The people...

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. Babylon - DC - Iraq - It doesn't matter as they both have the same king in the time appointed...( don't they? Who rules in Iraq now -  really? )




Now we get to have some fun!!!

Remember this is a name on the forehead. And on the forehead usually means on the mind. The woman - city - wants to stop the man child who is caught up unto God because with what he can reveal and say, he can stop the plans and deceptions of the city - the other woman is the target of the attack by the hand of the beast that will profit from the city getting it's way - the UN (happening now by the way, but not done yet)

Anyway. Back to the parable:

MYSTERY, - the first word and let me point out the comma. It is on purpose and very important!

BABYLON THE GREAT, - another comma, and the second word of the parable.

The MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH - mother is that which gives birth, so we are looking for what gives birth to the items described.

Let's see if you can answer the parable with a little help.

The MYSTERY of ? (not the woman but the entire Mystery)

BABYLON THE GREAT - in this portion of the tale is babylon coming or going? "Great" is to tie in the GREAT city that falls and goes up in smoke.

The MOTHER - what gives birth to things and usually uses naughty girls to promote it's wares?

If you get the first and last word of the three the middle will fill itself in. That is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.

What is on the womans mind as she goes down?

Thank you for the chance to try your patience and demeanor above the trial of belief. It is rare to find one who does not instantly go ballistic if their take is challenged.

In your service.

John.

John....all I can say is  ??? ??? ???

I like talking about this stuff too, and agree it is fun.  But I must confess I am completely confused as to where you are getting some of your teachings from.   Please don't take that offensively....I just can't seem to get there from here if you catch my drift?   I am only catching bits of peaces of truth I recognise from scripture in some of your points, and the rest I have no idea what you are talking about....lol  Sorry, but just being honest.

Let me ask you this.  What background is your faith, or what Church?  This might help me some.   Do you believe Christ was the only begotten son of God, come to save us from our sins?

Grace and Peace!

I'm not much of a biblical scholar on the endtimes.  I've always sorta held the opinion that Jesus will come for me someday, or I'll die and go to Him someday, and whatever happens after that I'll just get a birdseye view of.  ;D

But I gotta go with 2nd Timothy on this one.  You don't find America in the endtime prophecies.  You do find Israel, Babylon, Rome (which, BTW, was comprised of basically every country in the EU), and an unnamed nation from the north.  Seeing as how we aren't in any of these scenarios, and seeing as how we're huge and in everyone's current scenario...seems to me we just won't be around when the endtimes are fully here...

Just a thought...

 8) Sounds like a lock up.

What you are saying is that you can not see what I am saying in what "you" believe. But to each his own. I myself do not talk about me and if tagging the topic with a certain religion will help you somehow you are strange indeed. Thanks for the walk as it helps me to see the manner in which others have collected and placed what is written. I fully and in advance understand that scripture has revealled just how many would know the Word.

As for me I will stand in judgement for my works as they do follow me.

As we all will.

In your service!

Ancient and Honourable, John West.

No, what I am saying is cannot see what you are saying in the framework of what scripture teaches.  I don't believe, the endtime view one holds has any bearing on salvation.   However I do believe how one views salvation could deffinately affect ones view of endtime.    Which I why I asked what you believe as far as salvation.  Understand?  After all we have never spoken before and Im not really sure what you believe, so I thought I would ask.

Christ took upon himself my judgment, and by that grace though faith I will stand.  As for works, well, I'm HIS workmanship and will walk as He guides to good works.

Grace and Peace!

I have to agree - I don't see "the United States" anywhere in prophesy, which means, to me, the USA will become 'insignificant’ (at best) during the end times.  Which, by the way, may be just one election away…

Some of us will see Him sooner then others.

 8)And He said unto me...

John.

And I said, "Here am I."

And He said unto me. "Rise and measure them which are within, and them which are without measure not."

Peace, and have a nice day.

John.

Hmmm, I might be wrong, but that almost sounds like a threat Reba.....LOL  Planning on sending someone a bit early are we?   :D

j/k

Grace and Peace!

America today in Bible prophecy is directly in Deut 33:17
of Joseph in the latter days, which is the theme of Deut 33.
Here we find bloodline of the so called "Lost Tribes" and Ephraim is the US while Manasseh is Britain. Notice the precise troop ratio of ten to one in troop strength.

Deut 33, gen 49, Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 12 & 21, and other Scriptures concern the US and western Europe.

IDENTITIES!!! That is the key to understanding Bible prophecy and also to properly understand the Dead Sea Scrolls and the writings of Nostradamus as well.

If we cannot properly identify such nations as "Elam" in Jer 49 we will not have seen what has happened there in the past 15 or more  years in the Bible.

If we do not recognize symbolic "Tyre" is the US
and "Edom" is Iraq we will not have seen prophecy being fulfilled in the Persian gulf war. The US is also part and parcel of "Babylon" with a leader from our nation to become  the antichrist. The list goes on and on.

But it is not too late by any means to learn and put our learning to work for us that we may be better prepared soldiers for Christ/God.

Cordially,






;)

Greetings!

One of my favorite discussions from the past as we approach the time appointed.

Questions: If the end times are the focus of Scripture how in the world could the US not be found? Can anyone see the tear between the Public and Governing body of the US that was mentioned in this Topic years ago? Will the debt cause the canceling (or attempted canceling) of cash making credit and the Computer and Internet the only form of currency soon? Is the City which rules the Kings of the Earth not Washington and is it not falling fast just as we mentioned? Many more Revelations and topics come to mind from these and other conversations we enjoyed so long ago.

The Truth: The same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

Good stuff!

AMERICA ISN"T ANYTHING SPECIAL! GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD!

America is not mentioned in bible prophecy.I believe that the closes link that you are going to come pertaining to America, is The words..."merchants of Tarish"..."and all the young lions thereof" spoken of in Ezekiel 38.
It is my understanding that the merchants of Tarish were english speaking peoples,...and tradition has it that the youngest lion grows to be the most powerful.

The world today talks of a one world government,...but the truth is,..there are too many factions that refuse to give up their sovereignty.
At the current rate of progress,...a one world government would not happen in our lifetime,......unless.....three major global shocks were to occur first, that would change mans outlook, and cause him to give over his power and authority over to a one world government out of necessity for the sake of his survival.
Those three shocks can only come to pass byway of the pre tribulation rapture scenario.
These three shocks are....the Isaiah 17;1/Psalms 83 war,......the Rapture of the Bride,...these first two shocks do not necessarily have to occur in the aforementioned order.......and third..the Ezekiel 38 battle.....it is these three global shocks that bring on Daniels 70th week.

There are Christians in Americas governments and armed forces,and civil services...and with a pre-trib rapture,..there would be nothing short of economic chaos,..including to other world governments.
In Ezekiel 38;20...A great earthquake will occur in the land of Israel,..but also the world will feel this earthquake too.
I believe that there is a strong possibility that the Old Yellowstone volcanoe will erupt by reason of this earthquake in which at least half of America would be destroyed.