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I am presently living with my fiance, we have been together for 3 years. We are not married yet because her ex-husband who left her 6 years ago for another woman with whom he lives with and has 2 children with refuses to sign the divorce papers and moves everytime we find him. We are on a fixed income and cannot afford an attorney. We have both made vows to each other before God, and will be married ASAP. We moved to a small rural community in eastern Oregon a year ago, we are both Christians and have been for the better part of our lives. We realize that the way we are living is not acceptable to God, but as I said we have both prayed and made our peace with Him and believe that He will help us solve this problem. As a matter of fact we heard from her ex just about 2 weeks ago, and he is entering the military and wants a divorce before he does, so his girlfriend and 2 kids can be his beneficiaries. We were honest with the Pastor of our church about our situation on the first day that we attended church, he explained to us what God's word said and we agreed with him, but told him that there was nothing at the time that we could do. He showed up the other day, and reiterated the Scriptures about us living out of wedlock, and proceeded to call us fornicators, adulterers, and said that we were a black eye to God every time we walked through the door of the church. After this he told us that we were no longer welcome at the church.

This is the first time I've ever been thrown out of a church. We have never disrupted the service or caused any problems or tried to justify to anyone the way we live. We usually sit in the back, listen to the sermon, and leave with very little interaction with others.

I don't think that what was done to us was right, nor Biblical. What do you think? All opinions will be greatly appreciated.

What did you expect your pastor to say?
Why do you avoid interaction with other members of the church?

I didn't expect him to kick us out of church. The only reason we don't interact more is because most people don't want to interact with us. There are a few that we have fellowship with in and out of church, but very few.

What did you expect of him?

He did what? He just walked it to the door, asked for a cup of coffee and said “You are both Fornicators, and you can’t come to my Church anymore!”?

Either way, my advice would be to not get your panties all up in a wad over it. So you got thrown out of a church, you have tons of other options. From what you said, you don’t seem to attached to the church, anyways.

Not quite so easy, we live in a rural community. It is the only church, the next nearest church is over 20 miles away and we can't afford to drive there every Sunday.

You still haven't said what you did expect the pastor to do.

Why are you living together if you can't marry?

Does her not being able to marry you mean that you two should fornicate?

allamedo-
I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with how this pastor handled things, I'm just wondering how you thought he would handle them and how you wanted him to handle them.

I think it is a disgrace how many pastors and Christians let sin into the church. However, that does not mean that things can not be handled tactifully.

When my husband and I first came to the Lord, we were living together. We had a whole bunch of reasons why we should live together without marrying.
Those reasons seemed justified to us.
Our pastor pulled no punches about our lifestyle, but he did not ask us to leave the church.
We were not allowed to be in leadership with any of the ministries, but we were encouraged to participate in all ministries in the church that applied to us.

We were not allowed to go to a marriage seminar because we weren't married and weren't planning on getting married, but we were allowed to partake in Bible studies, care groups, etc.

When we did decide that we wanted to marry, we went to the pastor and guess what he said? He said no!
He said he would not marry us until we had lived apart and been celibate for at least 3 months. It took time and a lot of will power, but we did it.
About a year later he married us.

Many churches today will not marry a couple who has been living together and/or fornicating. Fornication leads to higher chances of divorce.

alamedo,

 I feel your pain man. Me and my wife lived together for 4 years before we got married. And when it was time for us to tie the knot our pastor turned us down flat.I know what the bible says about fornication and two people living together.But I also know what the bible says about forgiveness and not judging other people.So if your not welcome at your church anymore because of your situation does that mean alchoholics are'nt welcome either or how about prostitutes or homosexuals? These people are the ones Jesus hung around. Sounds like your pastor has a case of pharisee-itis.

 What would the Master do?

ybiC
new_self

allamedo-
Until very recently, homosexuals were not allowed to marry.
Should a pastor have looked the other way at their sin?

There is a big difference between repenting of sins and justifying them.

What does her ex-husband have to do with the choice that you two have made to fornicate?
He is not making you sin, that is a choice you've made on your own.
He is an adulterer, but he can't make you live in sin.
Actually, because she is not divorced, I would say that she is also an adulterer.
Although, there really is little difference between adultery and fornication I guess.

bible rules are too hard to follow. :-\..come to think of it. too hard to deal.....when it comes to diff situations. o pray o pray.

I think that was awful what the pastor said. Not so much awful, but the way he did it!  Ya know, we aren't there to draw people AWAY from Christ, but nearer to him. Regardless, he could have said this to you some other way. Not that you aren't welcome. That is RIDICULOUS & UnChristian like to me. Gee, what if you were not saved & you were looking for a church and a place hopefully to become saved you told him this situation & he said Your not welcome. Yes, Im sure that would bring someone closer to Jesus. NOT. Unfortunately, there are too many churches that have become WORLDY & forgotten the scripture to "Love one another" & have compassion.
I was listening to Charles Stanley the other week & he was talking about a church where he was preaching at and they had this woman who had just recently gotten a divorce. Her husband up & left her & moved somewhere. Anyway, long story short all the women in the church treated her like the plauge! They even whispered about her and called her the "divorcee" in front of her face! Yes, I'm sure that is real Christian & makes someone want to stay in that church & be around other Christians.
I think that pastor forgot the scripture where is says NO ONE IS PERFECT. WE ALL FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD. I'm sorry he is "perfect" and can say such things. Your not going to sit there & tell me you are the only one who MAY BE LIVING IN SIN  or not living a fully Christian lifestyle in the church. What happened to Judge not les ye be judged.
So while others might see it different, I feel strongly that this pastor was out of line. Its hard enough to get people to Christ without this. However, there are TOO MANY so called Christians who have the attitude like, "Well, Im saved.......Who cares about so & so & them......." They act like they their going to heaven & don't need to be bothered with anyone else.
Anyway, didn't mean to ramble on, but I have been to a lot of churches & not all have been good experiences. I remember being asked to leave because I had Pink hair. I'm not there to impress anyone. Im there to worship my savior. Perhaps that church & pastor ought to remember that.
I hope you & your GF find a new (loving) church! Please keep seeking the Lord! Remember, the Lord would never want you out of a church! Hopefully that divorce will go through SOON! Meanwhile, you should live a Godly life in the sense, not having a intimate relationship with this woman until the divorce is final.God Love & Bless you~

Sounds to me like the "hate of the Sin" overwhelmed the "love of the Sinner".  

Pray for the Pastor.  Pastor's are human also and can say/do things in ways that are not the best. And being human can be too embarrassed or prideful to admit their failure.

Take a very hard look at you and your live-in.  One of you may need to make a change in where they live - at least until you're married.  

If that decision is reached, approach the Pastor and Church Elders, ask for their help in finding an inexpensive place for one of you to live until married.

If you're rebuffed again, then pray for them but find a new Church home.

Good luck and may you find a Church home.

I think it is a disgrace how many pastors and Christians let sin into the church.

Sin will enter a church whether the pastor likes it or not. People aren't perfect, and if the pastor kicks out Allamedo and his fiancee for their sin, he needs to kick out everyone else in the church who has sin on their head. Meaning, everybody. God looks on all sin equally and hates it all equally; there is no justification for a pastor to kick out a couple for something he thinks is worse than lying or stealing.

This is certainly not to say I agree with what Allamedo has been doing, but if he and his fiancee want to grow closer to God, the pastor has no place nor any reason for coming between that. Allamedo's situation is between himself and God; the pastor has no place to judge this couple.

My advice is to pray, and to try to talk to the pastor again. The pastor needs to realize his sin.

I think it is a disgrace how many pastors and Christians let sin into the church.

If pastors and christians (ahem!) did`nt let sinners into the church the building would be empty!

Let him that is without sin...


A pastor has no God given right to excommunicate a "sinner" regardless of the sin, last time I looked, fear and unbelief were right up there amoung the worst of them just to name a few...a pastor does have the right...and may I say responsibility to SHEPARD the flock...this pastor should have got down on his knees with this couple instead of climbing on his pedestal.
Praying for and with one another, Godly  appealing to two people who live together outside of marriage to separate until the time comes they can be married, urging those living in bondage to sin to repent and turn away from their sin, this is God`s way, and  aught to be the way of every man, woman and child presuming to speak for HIM!

Shylynne said

Yep.  Pretty much sums it up.

1 John 1:8-9 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

2 Thess. 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he receieved of us."
3:14-15 "And if any man not obey our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."
Titus 3:10-11 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

I don't know the exact events that lead up to Allamedo's "excommunication", and therefore it would be difficult to choose whether I would be on his or the pastor's side. The pastor could certainly have been more encouraging, more loving; but again, I don't know to what extent he tried to encourage and love, so I really can't say.  ??? Any news on your fiance's divorce yet?

I'm confused.... :-\

You were asked to not even come to that particular church building?  ???

I can understand if they were talking about you not becoming members of that church building/denomination....

But I don't understand them not wanting you to come and hear The Word.  ???

As they say in Massachusetts -

"Man, that Pastah was wicked retahded."

I don't agree with his decision at all.

Again, just my two cents.


...Maybe "wicked retahded" is rather harsh, but hey, keep in mind that I have a sense of humor, and I do kid around sometimes.

Last time I was around, people forgot that.  :-\

Yes we were asked not to come through the doors. We never asked or tried to become members of the church. So, to answer your question, we are not permitted in the building at all, and that includes our 8 year old daughter too!

Well, Sapph, different sins call for different reactions. Paul made it clear about what should be done to theses involved in Sexual Immorality. Shylynne, who said the Pastor can’t throw someone out of his church? This happened in the bible many times.

I think you both are looking at it wrong. Biblically, when people commit certain sins over an extended period of time, Paul commanded us to “throw them to Satan.” You are right, the Pastors job is to Sheppard his flock, and if he sees something that could harm his flock, someone committing a sin that could hurt the rest of the church, and does nothing, what then? I don’t think either of you understand the massive pressure a leader has on his shoulder! If you could only be a fly on the wall of your pastors day, I think you would understand. It isn’t all rainbows and sunshine. A true leader had a “burden” for the people, and the word “burden” is the best way to describe it. God has felt right to place these men in over sections of his church, to guild them, lead them, and protect them! If he leads the flock astray, it is his head, and he knows this. A leader, especially a Spiritual one, must do everything in his power to keep his flock safe. That is part of his job. Does he make mistakes, yes. But I would rather a Pastor make a mistake, and kick someone out of a church, then leave them alone, and it end up causing others to stumble.

So, if he had the courage to do what he felt was right, in this politically correct environment, then good on him! If he had the courage to stand up in a day and age when pastors are told to “keep the people happy at any cost” and are told their job is just to “fill the pews” and say “No, I will protect my flock” then I pray we get more pastors like him in the world!

 ;D  I'm a firm believer that it is GOD that joins couples together, not MAN.  What GOD has joined together, let no man separate.  I think the whole issue about the paperwork involved in the "marriage" and the "separation" and divorce, is simply that, "paperwork."  And all this paperwork has a whole lot of couples fornicating under clean and good man-made paperwork and it doesn't mean that God joined them together.  Legalism is another tactic to put power in the hands of MEN.

And of course, when you don't follow the rules of men, the men that want to be rulers instead of letting God rule, will kick you out of their man-made establishments.

Have it clear in your mind that you are accountable to God.  And that mere men can't kick you out of the body of Christ, even if they can kick you out of their man-made establishments.

I'm not saying what you are doing is right or wrong.  All I'm saying is that you are accountable to God.  You know whether or not you're rationalizing your situation to make your accomodations justified to yourself or to others.  Remember that God is the one who justifies and redeems us.  I do think a whole lot of people that kick people out of church are doing unto others what they think someone needs to do unto them.   ;D  In other words, the kickers out of church secretly feel that they themselves need to be kicked out of church.  Alas, maybe you're carrying the cross and paying for someone else's sin.  Christ did that you know.  They're probably secretly guilty of something and think that as long as their pointing the fingers at someone else, no one will notice their own sin.   ;D

Never fear, God is near.   ;)

I think Tibby is a  Catholic.  That whole idea of "throwing people out to Satan"  :'( is something establishments of men misinterpret so that they can manipulate and control people.  Tibby, re-read your scripture and this time start from the very beginning of the chapter way before the scripture so you can gather the correct flow of what is being said.  And then you will see that someone interpreted it just the way they wanted it to give power to man-made establishments. :P

Yes, men like Paul.



I don't think you even know what verses I'm referring to, do you? You may dislike authority, but it is a bible principle. Pastor, Priests, Deacons, Elders. There is no such thing as a “man-made” establishment in True Christianity. God places our leaders in Authority over us. Hebrews is rather clear about that.

I'd like to start by thanking everyone for their responses and advice.

I think that maybe I should give you a little more background on what is going on here in this church. We arrived in this community, population 175, nearest city of any size, population 6000, is 70 miles away. So basically we're out in the middle of nowhere.

When we first arrived in town and went to church, we were honest with the Pastor about not being married. He counseled us on what the bible said about it and left it at that. We have filed papers 3 times since then, and next week we are going to file once more. During this past year, and prior to us arriving there have been problems in this church. It has gone from a congregation of over 50, to about a dozen or so. The deacons and elders have resigned also. All this has occured due to arguments with the Pastor, and his refusal to admit that maybe sometimes he is wrong. We had a very serious problem with the Pastor and his wife, regarding gossiping, we went to others in the church and confronted the Pastor and his wife about it. Understand that the people who were spreading the lie were present also, it was obvious, and clear. In front of everyone, including the last deacon left in the church, they denied it and called us liars. The deacon resigned his position the next day. We left and did not return for a few months, but I missed going to church, So I prayed about it, and God led me to write a letter asking the Pastor for forgiveness and I apologized for anything that I might have said to hurt him or his wife. Then last week I went to church with Debie and our daughter Aisha. The Pastors wife said nothing to us and left the church. At the end of the service the Pastor approached me and thanked me for the letter and said it humbled him, but still no apology or acknowlegement of fault, but that's OK, it wasn't the reason for the letter, it was to make things right betwwen God and me.

The next day I was fishing at the local pond and he asked me if he could come over and talk to us. That's when he laid into us. Almost a year, and nothing said, we come back to church and all of a sudden, it's a major issue, and we're out of church. Sorry but it's too much of a coincidence for me. I think that it was personal, and had nothing to do with love or God.

My personal feelings, I haven't said anything until now because I wanted to see how other Christians felt on the issue.

Once again thank you, and may God bless you abundantly.

allamedo;
A blessing is very much appreciated by anyone on the receiving end.  May the Lord be with you and yours and guide you.
JN

allamedo-
I'm totally confused on two issues.

1- If you know fornication is wrong, why do you continue to live together?
(Is the fact that your girlfriend's ex won't give her a divorce a good reason to sin?)

2- If you two have only been together for 3 years, how do you have an 8 year old daughter together?

1 - We have no other options at this time, no one has offered to help, and we cannot afford it.

2 - She is from a previous marriage, her father died, she considers me her dad and I consider her my daughter.

Amen, If sinners weren't allowed into church, the church would be empty.

Reminds me of the saying:
God, save us from your children!  ::)

I'm sorry for the treatment! I don't understand why a pastor can't share God's Word and then let God handle it from there!

But I would suggest reading the Bible at home and talking to God! He may just lead you to others who also hunger for more and before long you can have a home Bible study!

I'm most especially sorry that an 8 yr old is being led AWAY from Christ!  :-\

Now what was that bit in the Bible about Jesus and the woman at the well?

Thank you for clearing up about the 8 year old.

As far as the first question- are you saying that it's ok to sin in certain situations?

You do have another option. You don't have to fornicate. You're using the fact that she can't get a divorce as a means to justify living in sin.
I'm sorry that she can't get a divorce right now. However, you're both teaching that 8 year old that it's ok to sin.

I don't condone what the pastor said.
However, you are just a guilty for leading this little girl astray as the church is. Perhaps moreso since you are a parental figure to her.
She needs you to set a role model for her by doing what is right in God's eyes.
At this time, you can't marry and that is unfortunate. Also, at this time you can't live together and that is unfortunate too. However, if you start following God's Word, you'll set a good role model and your life will be a blessing to you and others. It won't be easy. The right thing seldom is easy.

Don't you think this pastor chose well?

And how is asking them to go away helping?

Yes, I think my pastor handled our situation correctly.
I don't recall saying that allamedo's pastor handled things correctly.

Someone pointed out that the pastor also kicked the 8 year old little girl out of the church which keeps her from hearing the Gospel.
I have two problems with this:
1- She should be hearing the Gospel at church and at home, therefore not going to church should not keep her from hearing the Gospel.
2- People who are committed Christians should not be intentionally sinning. This little girl is also being hurt because her parents are teaching her that this sin is ok.

Why are Christians on a Christian board having a hard time calling fornication a sin?!

I'm not saying this because I want to upset allamedo. I've prayed about this situation since I saw the first post. I'm saying this because I truly do care.
allamedo and his girlfriend have justified their sin.
Sin is sin no matter how much you try to justify it.

And I agree..... Yet the pastor mentioned here handled in a way that I don't agree with:


But she's now NOT allowed to hear God's Word in a place that is supposed to be God's House. At eight, what message will this send her?



Where did anyone say that what they're doing is right?  ::) Even allamedo said: "We realize that the way we are living is not acceptable to God..."

 What people tried to do was answer the questions asked:

Amen, Tibby.

allamedo and his girlfriend have justified their sin.
Sin is sin no matter how much you try to justify it. Amen again...

I'm speaking from a human perspective here (dangerous...) Would someone PLEASE stop saying that all Christians are sinners, and if you kick one sinner out you might as well get rid of them all???  :P A Christian can easily fall into sin; but he or she is NOT a sinner unless they are allowing that sin to thrive and become their master. Christ has ransomed us from the power of sin, and therefore we are free to obey God instead of the world and our own lusts. This doesn't mean we are perfect yet, and it doesn't mean we can boast in ourselves. But we are no longer "sinners", even if I don't agree with the decision of allamedo's pastor.  :'(

I just wanted to update everyone on our situation. Some of the other Christians in the community that we have Bible study with contacted the Pastor at the Assemblies of God church in Spray, a community about 25 miles away. He came to our Bible study last night and talked with all of us about our Pastor. He basically said that there is nothing we could do if he will not listen to us, his recommendation was to let go and let God, sounds a little cliche. But he's right, God will deal with the Pastor in God's time not ours.

After the discussion with the group, he came over to our house to talk personally with us. He said, I don't have to repeat the Scriptures to you, because you already know them. He explained that he felt that the Pastor hadn't handled it the best way that he could have, but the Scriptures were clear on the situation. In his opinion, he said that he should have been helping us solve the situation and guiding us instead of condemning us.

Well, to make a long story short, the Pastor from Spray has made a committment to us to help us get this divorce done, and to make sure that we get to the church every Sunday, by either a ride from someone nearby or he'll send the church van to pick us up. We also made a committment to him and God, which he told us was foundational, in order for God to bless this undertaking. We made a committment to sleep in separate rooms, and to remain sexually pure until the day that he marries us, we made this committment to him, to God, and have to make it publicly to the congregation. He said that if we do this, he will counsel us on marriage, help us in any way that he can, and get the whole congregation behind us in prayer.

I realize that this is not going to be easy, but I know that it's what God wants us to do.

Thank you all for your responses and advice, I hope that God blesses you all in abundance,

Al & Debie

Amen, right back at ya, willow.

Praise God!

You're right, it won't be easy! However, it will be well worth it.

As I said, my husband and I were in this same situation when we were first saved. If you would like some ideas or suggestions, please let me know.

I like that pastor!  ;D

Wonderful!

Allamedo, I'm wondering what you're looking for in a church.

A church that has love in it, and I've found it. The Pastor did not condone the way we're living, as a matter of fact he agreed with the Scriptures quoted to us by or former Pastor. But the difference between them was love! This Pastor gave us an alternative, support, and most of all showed us the love of Christ. He did not call us names or insult us, but in a loving and caring way showed us why the way we lived was wrong, and then made a personal committment to us to help us correct it if we would make a committment to God before him and the congregation. Say whatever you want, but I feel like I'm loved here! Yes we are still living together, but no longer in sin! We are sleeping in separate rooms and not having sexual relations. What more do you want, for one of us to live under a bridge? We are accountable to God, and God only! I believe that He opened this door, and we entered through it and are doing the right thing before Him, and ultimately that's all that counts!
Your brother in Christ,
Al