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What you believe about salvation colors your attitude to others. Those who believe that salvation is for all mankind do everything within their power to send the Gospel to the uttermost parts of the world. They will pray, they will give, and they will go with the Gospel.

Those who believe that salvation is not for all mankind will spend more time arguing about why it is only for "the elect" than actually taking the Gospel to "every creature".  And the "gospel" they will preach will indeed be "another gospel".

So what does the Bible teach about the extent of God's grace?  What does the Bible teach about the atoning work of Christ for the sins of the world? What does the Bible teach about God's postponement of His judgments so that none should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance?

Unless we have a proper understanding about the vastness of God's grace, we can have no understanding about the true meaning of "election" and "predestination".

Those who focus on election and misapply these truths, do not understand that they are essentially limiting (1) the love of God (2) the grace of God (3) the power of the blood of Christ and (4) the offer of eternal life to all mankind. Those who limit God or falsify the true Gospel will have to give a serious accounting at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

From my personal understanding......  i have been triing to say this but  as usal dont have the words
so here goes..... you got it backwards!  I have told more folks about salvation via Christ now then before...

Man can not limit the love, the grace or the power of God. I do not know who are the elect of God  HE said GO so i do... years ago my christian goal was to get folks to church.  For me your logic is backwards... I do agree i have seen many who call themsefls 'elect', on the net, who do not show the love of Jesus to anyone.


you say...
"What you believe about salvation colors your attitude to others."

I say...because of the change in me... What you believe about salvation colors your attitude to power of God.

Oklahoma Howdy to Brother Sower & Sister Reba,

I really think that you both said the same thing.

Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of us. God's Love and Grace is more than sufficient for all of us. This should give every Christian a burning desire to share the GOOD NEWS of the Gospel of God's Grace.

Sister Reba, we don't need degrees in Theology and big words to tell people about Jesus. I think the point that Brother Sower was making is that we all need to be telling the lost about Jesus. In fact, there is an urgency to tell the lost about Jesus.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Well Sower looks like the Bepster must have been a great cop on the street. What a deplomat!  

 Try as ya might Bepster  Sower and i are on opposite ends.  Not that  i am a Paul or Peter but they did not totally agree.... The gospels are not EXACTLY the same, and yet they are the Word of God...

I believe that salvation is for all mankind, but I do none of that.

Salvation is an open hand with food for the pigeon.
If it is desired, it can be had.
Those not saved are not cattle to be steered by a dog into a selected location.
We are to provide the opertunity and sources for those who might want to come.  If they choose not to, we can only smile with a glint in our eye.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sister Reba,

 ;D  Quite a few folks in prison don't think that I'm much of a diplomat.

 ???  I don't get it. Both of you are saying give the Gospel to the lost, bring them to church, or otherwise point them to Christ. So, I'll be quiet and try to see the disagreement.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Bepster..... Let me ask you a trick question?  


Has Jesus Christ ever failed?

Oklahoma Howdy to Reba,

Sister, I'll bite. Jesus Christ never has and never will fail.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Reba's 'trick' question reminds me of another old 'trick' question:

"What is greater than God, More evil than the devil, the poor have it, the rich need it, and if you eat it, you'll die?"

(Supposedly 80% of kindergarten kids got the answer, compared to 17% of Stanford University seniors.)

The answer:






"Nothing"

His  Blood was not shed in vain?




  Mr. Judge  >:(

Sorry Reba, dear - I don't understand the  >:(

Of course His blood was not shed in vain.  >:(

 ;D

Near as a martian could tell from reading through all the posts on C-Unite, salvation is only meant for Brother Love.
 ;D ;D ;D
Ha-ha!  I kill me!  (That is if Reba doesn't beat me to it!)

Okay - with a little more seriousness - salvation is available to all man (and woman) kind.  But, it is up to each individual to willingly receive it.

Volumes - about 66 if my count is correct (which I always considered a rather ironic number).

In a nutshell?: He died for the sins of the world and was raised from the grave to defeat death (and our sins).

All will never come to repentance.  Sad but true.  Only those who are ready - for he comes "as a thief in the night".

The vastness of God's grace will never be fathomed by mankind - we can't count that high...

Mr. Judge the  >:( was for  teasign about my  trick question   now i wil read the rest of yoru post  :P

His blood was not shed in vain . It was shed for all . Then all MUST be saved.

Dustcry:

Perhaps if you'll look a little closer, you'll find that what God has done far exceeds the provision of an ordinary meal to be picked up as the pigeons do.  In fact, salvation is likened to a Marriage Feast (Mt. 22:1-14; Lk. 14:16-24) to which the "king" makes a marriage for "his son" and SENDS FORTH HIS SERVANTS to invite the wedding guests.

It turns out that those who are initially invited make light of the invitation, and make excuses for not being present. So the king again commands his servants to go into the streets and lanes of the city and invite THE POOR, THE MAIMED, THE HALT AND THE BLIND.

Since there is room at the feast even after these have come in, the king then sends his servants into the highways "AND AS MANY AS YE SHALL FIND, BID TO THE MARRIAGE -- THAT MY HOUSE MAY BE FILLED".

However, there is a condition, and that is for each guest to be wearing "the wedding garment". One of the guests is found without this garment, and pays dearly for it.

What I want you and others to note is that the king is not satisfied to sit still while the Wedding Feast is laid out. He makes every effort to bring in the guests.  That is what Christ meant when He said "The Son of man is come TO SEEK AND TO SAVE that which was lost". God in His grace and mercy actively seeks out every sinner, since God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sower, you miss the point.
The pigeon was used as an example so to point out that it is up to each individual to accept it.  You can't very well force the pigeon to eat the bread in your hand.  If you do try, they will only fly away.  Man is no different.
Offer and he may or may not accept depending on the person.
But force anything upon man and he will revolt.

That was the point.

Man is not the center of salvation Jesus is.  


 Sower
From reading the above clip of your post, either all mankind is saved or God's will is nothing and He has failed. Do you believe all mankind is saved?


PS i have reread this posts and i see it sounds like maybe i am trying to trap you into saying God failed. If  i hada better command of language i would reword but dont so please dont take it as an afront.... OR is my big foot in my bigger mouth again?  :P

I would agree with Reba, you have it backwards.
No one can become saved unless they hear the word.
We cannot even begin to understand the gospel if we have not heard of the gospel. Since faith comes from hearing the word it is the great commission to get the word out to the people so that God can do his job of using the word to give understanding and salvation. It is called teamwork.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

It is the only fair and righteous gospel.
If salvation is dependent on our work of accepting the gift, then those that have never heard have a legitimate argument that they were not given the same opportunity as others, that were raised in bible believing households.
This gift is more like the gift of a new heart done by the master surgeon after the patient was technically dead and unable to choose.
If salvation is dependent on our freewill choice then the freewill believer should be making decisions on who to tell and who not to tell.
Those that believe in election want babies to hear, they need salvation too.
Freewill churches put their babies in nurseries, since they cannot understand, violating the Lords commandment to not forbid them from hearing about Him.

Matthew 19:13  Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Matthew 19:14  But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Freewill teachers need to be upfront with people.
“Mrs. Smith, your son Joey destroyed his brain with drugs, he’s a vegetable. He doesn’t even know his own name, he can’t make a decision to eat. He doesn’t know who you are, there is no way he can no who Jesus is, there is no way he can decide for Christ so there is no reason to tell him about the gospel.”
If you are going to be honest with people that is what you need to say.
Don’t waste your time on those with severe Alzheimer’s, or mental deficiency. You need to take your message only to those that are mentally able to understand.
No need to pray for someone’s salvation, that is asking God to elect them.
Anything else is an unfair and unrighteous gospel.
Or it could be the Shepherd chooses the sheep, instead of the sheep choosing the shepherd.
It could be God chooses who He is going to rescue (save), He chooses who He is going to have mercy on.

Romans 9:14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Romans 9:16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Reba:

When people talk about God's "failure" or "success", they are actually bringing God down to the level of man, not upholding His sovereignty. If that's how you want to view it, then Lucifer's rebellion was God's "failure" and Adam's transgression was also God's "failure".

The glory of God is that He not only made man in His image and likeness, but He also allowed man to choose between God and self. Adam and Eve chose the latter.

But God already knew this, so He provide another and better way -- the Lord Jesus Christ. Again, He does not compel or coerce any man to believe and be saved.  

THE OFFER OF ETERNAL LIFE IS TO ALL MANKIND, THEREFORE IT IS GOD'S WILL THAT NONE SHOULD PERISH BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE.

At the same time only those who believe, repent and receive Christ will be saved. God does not predestinate some to Heaven and others to Hell.  Those who will enter Hell is because of their own choosing (Jn.3:36).

So again, it is God's glory to offer salvation freely to all mankind and give sinners every opportunity to be saved. Furthermore, the Godhead actively seeks out sinners and offers the gift of eternal life. So who can fathom God's grace? Certainly not the Calvinist.

Sower  the question asked  was are all mankind saved?  This is a simple question.

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

We perish because of sin.
It was never Gods will that man would sin.
God does not make us sin. Adam and Eve were created with no sin in them.
Therefore it was never His will that we would perish because of our sins.
----
So much of what you believe hangs on the word ‘all'.
This is a slippery word with many meanings.
It is the word ‘pas’, Strong’s number 3956.
Rarely is it ‘all inclusive’.

Mt 2:3  When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all <3956> Jerusalem with him.

Was ALL of Jerusalem troubled?

Mr 1:5  And there went out unto him all <3956> the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all <3956> baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

ALL the land of Judaea, approx. 2,000,000 people. ALL baptized, Pharisees too?
 
Lu 2:1  And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all <3956> the world should be taxed.
Lu 2:3  And all <3956> went to be taxed, every one into his own city.

Was ALL the world taxed? Every single person on the planet went to be taxed?

Joh 6:37  All <3956> that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

That’s an interesting one, --- ALL that the Father giveth me shall come to me. Does this fit your definition of ‘all’?

Acts 10:38  How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all <3956> that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Is that right? He healed ALL that were oppressed of the devil?

The word pas can also mean “all manner of” as in:

Mt 4:23  And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of <3956> sickness and all manner of <3956>  disease among the people.

This is an excellent and acceptable interpretation for the types of verses you point to, that the major part of your argument revolves around.

1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all <all manner of> men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Romans 5:17  For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all <all manner of> men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all <all manner of> men unto justification of life.

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all <all manner of (mankind)> should come to repentance.

The word ‘pas’ is a word that needs to be qualified.
All manner of men, babies to graybeards, male and female, all colors, etc.
When you read the KJV bible you find words that are italicized. These are words that the interpreters added so that the interpretation might fit a little better.
It is not an exact science, sometimes they got it wrong. Sometimes they got it right. This is one of those places where italicized words could have been added.
We should understand that, all that the Lord has chosen should come to repentance.
Only those God has chosen are kept from perishing.

John 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
John 10:30  I and my Father are one.

The sheep don’t choose the shepherd.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Well, this appears to be hair-splitting.

We all know that God can force anything HE wants done, but HE didn't do that. God could have made Adam and Eve robots under complete control every second with no thought of their own and no choices to make. There would have been no need for do's, don't's, law, Grace, love, the cross, etc. There would also be no trouble, no wars, no evil, no sin, etc. Man would have no need of a Saviour and remote control righteousness. However, that was no God's plan. God gave man thought, the ability to make choices (right and wrong), and the choice to disobey and reject the CREATOR. God obviously had no intention of Creating man as a robot, so God did not make any mistakes. All mistakes were made by the choice and will of man.

It is obvious that all men are not saved, but the choice is there as a free GIFT. Jesus Christ was a perfect Sacrifice on the Cross, but, again, God did not force men to do anything. Hosts of men will never accept the free GIFT, but that's man's error in choice, not a mistake made by God.

Every man and woman makes choices every day, including Christians, and many of those choices will be wrong. YES!!, Almighty God could force all men to make the right choices 100% of the time, but HE didn't. YES!!, God would like for all men to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour, and HE would like all men to love HIM with all of their heart. Men are not robots, so the rest is simple.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Tom, sounds like you hit the nail on the head.  There are two kinds of choices man can make; good and evil.  Man is in a sense sort of divine, but infinitely less and incomparable to God Almighty.

Hi BEP  :)
It is not hair splitting.
There is a lot of confusion as to what salvation is.
Those that push the freewill gospel believe salvation is a decision.
The fact is salvation is a change.
We cannot enter into the kingdom of God as we are. We must be born again.
We have a physical body and we have a spiritual body. Both are corrupt. Both are beyond our ability to repair.
When the Lord returns we will be given an new incorruptible physical body.

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

When we are saved God gives us an incorruptible spiritual body. He gives us a new spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19  And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Ezekiel 11:20  That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

We are spiritually dead so He must quicken us. The dead can’t make decisions.

Ephesians 2:1 ¶ And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

It is not a decision that we can make. It wouldn’t be a fair gospel if it was dependent on man. We are not all dealt the same cards.
Think about Lazarus. He was dead, he can’t make a decision. He can’t hear, he can’t think, he was rotting. The Lord called him out, it is a picture of salvation.
Think about the paralytic man, whose friends lowered down through the roof so that Jesus could heal him.
Instead Jesus forgave him his sins. It was a gift he did not ask for.

Mark 2:5  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
Mark 2:9  Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
KJV


Darby has stated very nicely the reason why i discount the choice of man.  In spite of the the above scriptures and others, Darby says "Man is in a sense sort of divine, but infinitely less and incomparable to God Almighty."  


For man to think he is in any divine is scary and sorry Bepster not hair spliting but blantant self rightiousness. Now this is my view and i do not excpect every one to agree with me.


Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,KJV
 


Eph 2:8-10

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
KJV

Oklahoma Howdy to Left Coast,

First, I have no desire to turn this into a debate, and I really don't know what point you are trying to make. I wasn't there 2,000 years ago to see the signs, wonders, and miracles, but I didn't need them to make my choice. I heard the Gospel of the Grace of God, believed it, accepted the GIFT of God, and have happily put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Saviour.

If you are saying that Christians of all time were forced to be believers, I would completely reject that thought. If that were the case, God would simply force all to believe. If you are confusing God's foreknowledge with predestination, I understand that doctrine, but I don't buy it at all. That does not effect my fellowship at all with those who believe that. If that's what is being discussed, let's just agree to disagree and love the Lord and Saviour together.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Right. Those that preach limited atonement and limited grace are the ones who confuse sinners, since John 3:16 along with the whole Bible says otherwise. God's truth is that GOD LOVES EVERY SINNER AND WANTS EVERY SINNER TO BE SAVED. No ifs, ands, and buts.  The price paid by the Lamb of God was too costly to exclude anyone. Those who exclude themselves, choose to do so. God excludes no one, not even a persecutor of the Church like the Pharisee Saul.


The so-called "freewill gospel" is the true Gospel of God's grace to ALL MANKIND, for ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God, ALL we like sheep have gone astray, Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, God now commandeth ALL MEN everywhere to repent, since God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance, because in His infinite grace GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

Salvation is indeed a decision -- a decision for Christ: "Choose ye this day whom ye will serve..." (Josh. 24:15). That message has never changed, from the time of Abel who chose God while his brother Cain did not, to this very day when men and women choose Christ over the devil. Do we want more Scripture to prove that salvation is a decision -- a decision to believe the Gospel, a decision to repent and be converted,  a decision to receive Christ as BOTH Lord and Saviour, a decsion to be immediately baptized upon conversion?

Read what Paul says to the Thessalonians: "For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God" (1 Thess. 1:9).   Was that not a deliberate decision, or was it happenstance?  

What about those converted on the day of Pentecost? "Now when they heard this [Gospel], they were pricked in their hearts, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...Then they that gladly received his word were baptized" (Acts 2:37,38).  

What about the Philippian jailor? "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?  And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved,and thy house. And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.  And he took them  the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his straightway... and rejoiced, BELIEVING IN GOD WITH ALL HIS HOUSE" (Acts 16:30-34).


Of course. That goes without saying.  But a change following a DECISION to believe, repent, and receive Christ.


Of course. That too goes without saying. The moment a sinner turns to Christ, he or she is saved, born again, given the gift of eternal life, given the gift of the Holy Ghost, given the gift of the God's righteousness, and much, much, more.  But all that FOLLOWS a heart response to the Gospel.  A decision to "turn from sin and idols and turn to the living God".



And so God does. The "washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Ghost" is accompanied by the "quickening" of our dead spirits, which are joined eternally to the Holy Spirit when Christ baptizes us with the Holy Ghost in the new birth.


That's not what the bible teaches. Since ALL are dead, ALL need the quickening of the Holy Spirit. But that quickening comes only to those who look upon Christ as their Lord and Savior and receive Him by faith. Sinners can and do turn to the Saviour every day.


The "Gospel" is not dependent on man, neither is salvation a work of man.  Salvation is what God does to and for a sinner who believes, repents and receives Christ. Since the offer of salvation is TO ALL MANKIND, nothing could be fairer.  We are all dealt "the same cards".  "ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God".  "The wages of sin is death, but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".
 

It is a "picture" only.  Lazarus and his sisters were already saved, since they had all believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.


Exactly. Christ makes no exceptions, and He offers the gift of salvation to ALL MANKIND FREELY. no exceptions, no exclusions, no reservations. Since ALL  have sinned, ALL need the Saviour. Physical healing is secondary.

Yes. It's a simple question, to which the simple answer is "No".

So the next question is "Why"?

And the answer to that is "Because".

Actually, the answer to that is found throughout Scripture, and I will leave you to search the Scriptures for the answer. That's the only way that you will know the true Gospel of the grace of God which BRINGETH SALVATION TO ALL MEN (Tit. 2:11).  Remember Lot's wife.

 Sower,

Thank you for your direct answer.  :)

Rom 9:15-22

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
KJV

It depends on what you mean by "the centre of salvation".

"For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels: but He took on Him the seed of Abraham.  Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, TO MAKE RECONCILIATION FOR THE SINS OF THE PEOPLE" (Heb. 2:16,17).

Perhaps this puts things in perspective. Without sinners there is no need of a Saviour. Without a Saviour no sinner can be saved, no matter how hard he tries.

Salvation is not about the sovereignty of God -- which none can disturb -- but about the GRACE OF GOD.  Grace reaches down to sinners to rescue them from Hell. Grace excludes none. Grace offers a free gift. Grace adds grace upon grace, so that the sinner is not only saved from eternal damnation, but is given the gift of eternal life, the gift of the Holy Spirit, the gift of Christ, the gift of God Himself!  The sinner becomes a child of God, an heir of God, a joint-heir with Christ, a king and a priest before God eternally, one who is transformed fully into the image and likeness of Christ to remain so eternally, because God's grace overflows towards sinful man!  This is the meaning of "Amazing Grace"!

 

Hi, BEP
I'll try not to debate, I will try to explain. By what you said you are confused as to my point. May God give me a clear and wise voice and may God give you understanding.

Proverbs 2:6  For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

It is not exactly forcing, believing is a result of a change in us. It is a rescue.
Consider someone frozen outside, paramedics arrive, thaw him out and revive him. Was he forced to live, perhaps. It was necessary for the paramedics to do it all because he was incapable of doing anything on his own. That is how capable we are of having saving faith.
God must change our heart, so that we can believe in truth.
We can have an intellectual understanding who Jesus is, and many want to join up.
True belief, where we hang every bit of our salvation and life on God, comes because God has given us a heart that can believe in truth.
Once God changes our heart we have no choice. It is our deepest desire to be with Him.
If He does not change our heart our faith is not a saving faith.
The bible mentions many that believe, but are not saved. Even the devils believe. So believing cannot be the mechanism that saves.
We’re control freaks, we want to be in charge of our lives. For some reason we don’t want to trust God 100% with our lives.
If you really want faith try to trust every bit of your salvation on Him.
If the claim is made, “all you have to do is …”, then you are not trusting 100% on God.
The bible warns that when Jesus returns many that considered Him Lord, many that felt they were working for Jesus, were never saved. He never knew them.

Matthew 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These are self made believers. To cast out devils means they witnessed to others, brought others to the church, evangelized, etc.
I used to believe I was saved because I made a freewill decision, I was wrong.
I am saved because God had mercy on me. He chose to save me. He drew me to Him. He changed my heart.
I wasted many years trusting in my works.
I don’t know when I was saved, and it doesn’t matter. All that matters is that I was.
Having some intellectual belief can put us on our knees, we can cry out for mercy, but if we claim God MUST save us then we are ruling over God. God has no obligation to man.
Why reject so many verses that says God chooses to save whom He wishes?
Why reject so many verses that says God gives understanding to those He chooses?
Why reject those verses that gives the credit to God that we believe, such as in my signature.
I heard the Gospel, and through the Grace of God believed it. He bestowed on me the GIFT of life, by no merit of my own, trusting ALL in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

Acts 15:11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Would God save everyone?
He is capable but He doesn’t. There is a purpose to His plan. Don’t ask me what it is I don’t know.
I don’t even know why He would have mercy on a wretch like me. So many more people are kinder, less selfish, and less sinful. I enjoyed my sins.
I don’t see how I could possibly know His entire plan. He is molding us, creating something special. We are just clay, He is the potter.

Romans 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romans 9:19  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Romans 9:20  Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Romans 9:21  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

I hope I might have cleared up at least a little confusion,
John

Amen Sower  :)

AND WILL HE HAVE COMPASSION ON ALL?
"Ho, EVERY ONE THAT THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money: come ye, buy, and eat: yea, come buy wine and milk WITHOUT MONEY AND WITHOUT PRICE... Seek ye the LORD, while He may be found, call ye upon Him while He is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thouoghts: and let him return unto the LORD: AND HE WILL HAVE MERCY UPON HIM; AND TO OUR GOD, FOR HE WILL ABUNDANTLY PARDON" (Isa. 55:1,6,7).


FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US..." (Tit. 3:5)


THE WRATH OF GOD IS REVEALED AGAINST SINNERS

"For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness... Because when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened" (Rom. 1:18,21)


MEN LOVE DARKNESS RATHER THAN LIGHT, BECAUSE THEIR DEEDS ARE EVIL
"And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds be reproved." (Jn. 3:19,20)


IT IS A RIGHTEOUS THING WITH GOD TO RECOMPENSE TRIBULATION TO THOSE THAT TROUBLE YOU
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus Christ shall be revealed from Heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire TAKING VENGEANCE ON THEM THAT KNOW NOT GOD, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUOR LORD JESUS CHRIST: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:6-9).

 Nicely said lefty  :)

Sower,

 I spent a life time in free will (Dad was a AofG pastor, i was blessed to literaly grow up in church :)  ) and was thankful to the Lord for that life. Although  I will not ever again believe that my sinner self chose GOD. I was dead in sin He found me and He pulled me from the clay as you so rightly posted ...

"FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US..." (Tit. 3:5)"

The word ‘world’ like the word ‘all’ doesn’t always mean what you want it to mean.

John 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

If He was the savior of the whole world you’d think He would pray for the world. He prays for those God has given him.

John 12:19  The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

Did the entire planet go after him?
The verses that you depend on for your understanding are simply not as clear as you would like them to be.
The words ‘all’ and ‘world’ rarely, if ever, mean what you have construed them to mean.
The world is not a reference to the number of people on the planet.
The word ‘world’ might be better understood to refer to the sin nature of man. The people of the planet in their wickedness.

James 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 John 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1 John 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The Love of the Father is language pointing to salvation.
Saul is a good example of someone being saved by Gods action. He didn’t have a whole lot of choice in the matter.
How many times do your sins need to be paid for?
If Jesus has paid for your sins then they never need to be paid for again.
If Jesus has paid for the sins of every person on the planet then the payment is in full. Nothing more needs to be paid. Even if they reject the Lord by your definition the payment has been made. So now one of two things must happen.
1. Jesus would need to go get a refund. Somehow give the suffering back.
2. No one goes to Hell to pay for their sins. The payment would have already been made.
That is just not possible.
Whether you believe in election or freewill, Jesus knew every single person that was to be saved (whether it was by Gods choice or mans choice it doesn’t matter) and He paid for their sins ONLY.

Joshua 24:15  And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

There is nothing here about being saved because they have chosen God --- Read a little further.
They want to serve God because God chose them and saved them.

Joshua 24:16  And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
Joshua 24:17  For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Egypt is a picture of the dominion Satan. We are under bondage to sin. This part of the bible is a wonderful picture of salvation. They didn’t choose to leave Egypt, they didn’t want to leave Egypt, but they did. It was all Gods work.

Exodus 14:12  Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.

There was no freewill choice.

It is neither. It is a result of salvation. Go back to verses 4 and 5.

1 Thessalonians 1:4  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
 
They were elected by God ---CHOSEN by God. Not choosing God.

1 Thessalonians 1:5  For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

They didn’t just hear the word and make a decision. The gospel came with power and the Holy Ghost, God worked in them. That is why they turned from idols.
What about the day of Pentecost?

Acts 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

So 3,000 people made a freewill decision, not likely. God saved those 3,000. Read a little further.

Acts 2:47  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

His work.
How can anyone contribute anything to their birth?
The baby has no input as to their birth. That is why the Lord used such an example. Nicodemus understood it was impossible for man to get himself born again.

John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?

Jesus told him you have to be born of the spirit, God must resurrect your spirit. When you are born again your spiritually dead self must be made alive.
Yes Lazarus was already saved, the Lord presented him as a picture, of salvation. The dead can do nothing on their own. By using Lazarus Jesus was showing salvation is all his Work.

John 11:25  Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

How can the dead believe? Do the dead have freewill?
The bible is teaching that it is God that gives the spiritually dead the ability to believe. The offer is not made to those that have never heard gospel.

Romans 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If all were given the same cards then there would be the same percentage of Christians in Iran, India, China, or the U.S.A.
There would be no need to evangelize, no need for missionaries.
All would have an equal chance whether they had heard the word or not.
The fact is God gets the word to those He intends to save.
He got the word to Ruth, and Rehab, and the Samaritan woman at the well. That is why it is so important to get the word out.
The point of the paralytic man is he did not believe Jesus was the saviour, he did not even consider Jesus could forgive his sins. He made absolutely no freewill decision to make Jesus his Lord. Jesus just saved him, Jesus gave him the gift of eternal life. The man had no choice in the matter.
Jesus could just as easily said to everyone that was gathered, your sins are forgiven. He didn’t, He chose this man. The man did not choose Jesus.