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The motive of true Christians is to lead people to Christ alone. Anyone who worships anyone other than Christ will attack true Christians who try to lead people to Christ. This includes catholics. We are all supposed to be united in Christ. So why then do "professed" Christians attack other Christians who believe in Christ alone? What is their motive? Why would they attack any Christians who believes that Jesus is the ONLY way to God? The answer is that they obviously believe that He is NOT the only way to God, or there would be no arguments. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is againt me." We cannot be both. We either believe Jesus is the only way to God or we have another god that we worship, sometimes, in the name of Christ. Otherwise, we would ALL be united in Christ. Catholic defenders who believe that the catholic church is their god will be angry when we point out inconsistencies in the catholic church. But if their God was Christ alone, they would see that all the rest of us are mere fallible human beings. But their god is the pope whom they call their Holy Father. Otherwise they would not get so defensive when he or his title is crticized. Again, true Christians want ALL to come to Christ alone. This icludes catholics. How is this hate? Why then do the catholics argue with us when we want them to come to Christ alone? Again, "He who is not with me is against me? How can we be both for Christ and against Him at the same time? The pope and Christ are not the same person. Our loyalty is to one or the other.

idolatry is not only the worship of false gods heidi but the worship of false devils too. i can tell you that as a non- catholic it was just about part of every discussion to bring up catholicism and how bad it was. as a matter of fact i would say that most protestantism is really a mix of 90 % jesus and 10% anti catholicism. the very fact that you have this hang up with catholicism, which by the way isn't even catholicism but a stereotype, only tells me that you have a little idol called anti-catholicism.

 now the funny thing is that as a catholic for the last year i can honestly say that not once....not once..... have i been to a bible study or mass or pot luck and heard the topic shift to anti - protestantism, the cults, anti- baptists apologetics. not once had the homily focused on why these other groups are so messed up because they see things differently. no the integrity of focusing on christ had miraculously been maintained. so tell me again who is getting their focus off of christ.

an interesting point that a baptist, of all people, told me once was that the best way to keep people together is to creat a common enemy. i believe this is why evangelical/fundamentalists must constantly keep attacking a church they understand little about. for unlike the catholics they have no common creed to keep them united, unless it is the creed of anti catholicism.

and btw catholic do not thing the pope is christ. that is just plain ridiculous. you need to back up these slanderous statements before you post them.
 

the reason for this is that we don't see the evangelical religion as really giving us christ alone. apart from the anti-catholicism so foundational to its movement, there are other problems that we disagree with such as it's aparent dualistic theology. Catholics are happily overwhelmed with jesus christ in catholicism,, it is his body and blood we partake of and which is the centerpoint of all our worship. the evangelicals main focus in on a man telling us what the bible says. the climax of the mass is the sacramental incarnation of the eucharist, the climax of an evangelical service is a sermon. we go to recieve our lord, you peice together a string of unrelated scripture to support doctrines to tickle your ears.

what more can i say.

mike

Self Defense


 ;D

On a more serious note:


Heidi, you simply cannot say this as an absolute truth. Only God can see into the hearts of men, not us. Because a few may believe that, does not make it so.


This also is true of other religions, but it often has nothing to do with the religion and much to do with the attitude of the poster. There are zanies in all walks of life.


Sweetie, how can you know this? Because they do not fit into the mould you have created for them doesn't prove anything. There are arguments over all kinds of things....even if the entire world believed as one, in unity, we would still find things to argue about.


The catholics I know respect the pope for sure, but they certainly don't worship him. Maybe some do..... on the other hand there are those who call themselves christian who worship snakes, yet always your arguments go back to catholics. Try to remember, that there's good and bad in all of us.


It becomes hate, dear, when we allow our emotions (our human emotions) to take over and we become less than kind to others.

What makes you believe they haven't already come to Christ? I'm sorry, Heidi, but I care very much for the Pastor at our church....I love him through Christ. That doesn't mean I have put him over Christ. Christ always comes first, before my husband, before my children, before my parents AND before myself.


Loyalty hasn't got much to do with whether or not we worship someone. I love God and Jesus, and I worship the same. Am I "faithful" to Him? Yes. However, I am also a loyal and faithful wife and friend. However, if Jesus said to me "leave them behind and follow me", then I guess I would. Loyalty means: being steadfast in allegiance or duty; inspired by love; unwavering devotion to friend, or vow or cause. That leaves room for being loyal in all kinds of ways. Christ must always come first.

-------------------------------

No matter how many times you post this sort of question, Heidi, I doubt you will get an answer that satisfies you.

Do you want to know what I do when I have questions with no answers? Give them to Jesus. Prayer is one of the most powerful ways of handling all kinds of situations.

You are letting this kind of stuff "steal your peace". Only you can allow that, and from what I read in some of your posts, that's what I see.

Yes indeed, continue lifting up Jesus. That is, after all, the most important. If people don't want to listen, honey, don't argue with them. Pray for them and move on to something else. There's always gonna be stuff to talk about.

In Christ
Gracey

Blain, "He who is not with me is against me." I am for anything that promotes Jesus as the ONLY way to God and against anything that says he is not or shares Him with other gods. It all boils down to good and evil. God is good, Satan is evil. I love God and hate Satan. If I am for one of them then I am against the other. It's that simple.

Of course only God can see into a person's heart! But it is  true that a person cannot worship both Jesus and the pope. It's one or the other because they are not the same person. That is a true statement, Gracey.

The attitude of the poster is what I'm talking about! If he attacks people who say that Jesus is the only way to God, then in his heart, he doesn't believe that. This includes catholics, as i mentioned.

Why would someone disagree with someone else who says that Jesus is the only way to God? The only reason can be that the person doesn't think He is! Otherwise they would agree with each other, would they not?

I agree with you that there are MANY people who call themselves Christians that worship other things instead. That's why my post was a general post about the gods we worship. I included the catholics because many catholics do indeed worship the pope in THEIR HEARTS while they pay lip service to Jesus with their mouths. This requires self honesty in each person which is not very common. The followers of David Koresh also thought they worshiped Jesus but in reality took David Koresh's word about what the bible meant. Most catholcis I know take the catholic doctrine as the gospel instead of the bible. That is why it is so important to know Christ's words and discern them with the Holy Spirit instead of having it interpreted through another medium. This is why I mentioned them in my post.

I don't know about you, Gracey, but I hate Satan. Maybe you don't. Do you understand hating the sin but not the sinner? When you do you will be able to understand true love. True love is caring about people's SOULS before allowing them to perpetuate beliefs that will lead them to destruction. That is why I'm on this forum! Jesus did that! He didn't hate the Jews, He hated evil. He called the Jews snakes and  a "brood of vipers". He was pointing out their hypocrisy which is what He hated. Not they, themselves! If your children were into drugs would you condone it or endorse it for fear they won't like you or their feelings will be hurt? Which to you, is real love?

You might want to reread what I said. I said "Because a few might believe that does not make it so." It's not true of all of them. And what I meant was that if you want you make a statement that's absolute truth, you can't lump everyone together like that. The truth is, we don't know which ones worship the pope and which ones don't.


It includes catholics, yes, but it also includes all people. None of us are immune from it....it's unfortunate, but it happens.


Not necessarily. People could agree with each other about Jesus being the only way to God, but disagree with a lot of other things, such as the issues of baptism and communion. The arguments, or "discussions" I've been seeing (not just yours, but others too) aren't so much about Jesus as about the things we do. I wonder what He thinks about all this....


This is a complex issue - there are some who may not know how to go about examining their own lives. It's something we should be doing all the time, each of us. It takes time to learn. One thing I try hard to do when I do anything - ask myself - how would Jesus do this; what would He say; how would He approach this? Now, that's not to say I've always been that way. Not so long ago I charged about the forum posting what I thought was right, kind of ignoring the kindness and respect issue, joining in with the rest of the melee. When someone pointed out what I was doing, I withdrew from here for a while and gave myself a thorough check-up. Yep. I wasn't being very nice at all. God showed me there's a better way.... it's called love, patience, kindness, meekness and self-control. I'm different than before; better, I hope. Thanks to Him.

One of the things Jesus taught us was to walk in love. I try a lot harder now, than I used to. I try to take into account how others will feel about my response. Why? Well, not to please man, but to please God.



Hate is a pretty strong word, but it's close. But I have also learned to fear him a little, because he can sneak in without our knowing it. No matter how on guard we are. Sometimes, God even allows it.....as with Job.


I understand this concenpt very well. My dad's family is catholic; my mother is unsaved; I have a gay cousin; and a few atheists. If you don't learn from God how to handle these things in a loving way, you will have not helped your family at all. So, yes, I do know. It doesn't include hitting them every other day with a 2X4 called the bible. It means living my life for Christ so they can see Him through me, through my actions and the way I live my life. As christians we must always strive to live a Christ-like life, in public or in private. It means exibiting the fruits of the spirit. And when they are ready, telling them the Good News!


That's not quite the same thing. Naturally any loving parent wouldn't condone it. However, I would love them above all else (except God). Often times, it's a show of that sort of "unconditional" love that makes them think twice. But I wouldn't throw it in their faces everyday either. I have two daughters, now both married with kids.....I won't even bother telling you what sort of things we went through with them. So I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. It wasn't the "beating about the head" that brought them back....that just drove them further away. It was the love. Different things work for different people.

When you aren't getting anywhere with the method you are using, it's time to try something else.

In His Grip
Gracey

I agree that not all of them are unbelievers. When i speak of the catholics, I am referring to the clergy and doctrine. I can see why you might be misunderstanding me there. The catholic congregation are victims of the teachings of the catholic church just like we are all victims of the teachings we receive. That's why it's paramount for all believers to know their bible in order to discern truth from fiction.

I agree that none of us are immune and have never claimed the contrary. However, the false teachers are held more accountable than their "students" because they claim to see. There's a phrase somewhere in the bible that talks about the punishment for false teachers. I will have to look for it.

I agree with you that there will be different interpretations about sacrements, etc. But when a church doctrine considers itself infallible and claims to be the one true church, not only is that the sin of pride, but it is playing God. That is when people get into idol worshiping.

Actually the best thing to ask ourselves on most situations is; "Am I doing this for my glory of Christ's"? We then have to see how our desire for recognition and approval, to look intelligent, or holy, can play into our beliefs. These are the insidious sins from satan and we are all susceptible to them. If your self worth is not based on the forgiveness from Christ and ONLY the forgiveness from Christ then it will be based on trying to build ourselves up to earn the praises of men instead of humility which will reap the forgiveness from God.

Aaahhhh, I do see. Okay...well, for clarity you might try always to say "the catholic clergy" rather than just "catholics". Not everyone who looks at the forums will bother to go read every other thread. That way, there won't be any misconception about what you mean.


I didn't mean to imply that you did. I only meant to point out that we all err sometimes.


Possibly this?

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


That's exactly what this means:


Gracey

Actually, what I meant by the last phrase was; am I doing this so that people will like ME, even if it's flattering people saying nice things to them, trying to look loving, or holy, or good, or am I speaking the truth even if others don't like me for it? Being kind to people can be just as much a self-serving motive as anything else can be. This is what I mean by painful self-honesty, Gracey. Again, anything that glorifies ourselves is the sin of pride.

This, I may have misconstrued (yet again), but I hope you are not saying that because we act in love or kindness or patience that we are glorifying ourselves, or trying to "get" people to like us? Personally, I have no interest in whether or not someone "likes" me, but because I am a christian ambassador it behooves me to act with respect (which I don't always manage) towards others, even those I disagree with.

For the most part it's not a matter of like, but it can be a matter of how people perceive us. Even if they don't like us, but perceive us to be showing the fruit of the spirit, they are more likely to take what we have to say a little more seriously than if they think we are religious nutbars. There's nothing wrong with the truth of Christ unless we turn it into a yelling match ourselves.

Can I ask you something? What is your purpose in posting at this forum?

I would suspect it to be something like "to share the gospel" or "to communicate with other christians" or something of the like. But, those are only my "guesses", so.....?


Gracey

I come, so that Christ may be seen and glorified; I can do all things through Him who is in me.

John, 5:41, "I do not accept praise from men." Sorry, Gracey, but if our motives are to get the praises of men, then we can't help but sacrifice the truth for it. Jesus did nothing of the kind. He called a spade a spade even if it was convicting. That's why he was killed! His true disciples will also pass on the truth becaue the TRUTH ALONE IS LOVE! The truth brings us into eternal salvation and the unending glory of his kingdom. But if I'm interested in being SEEN as kind, loving, generous, etc. then my motives are to glorify myself and come from the sin of pride. Again, we have to confess these motives when we become aware of them so that Jesus can replace them with HIS forgiveness and we are operating out of the spirit instead of sin. THEN  HIS love will come out of us instead of calling it ours. Some people have a very hard time admitting they are not loving people because their self-esteem is based on being "good." Jesus said; "No one is good but God alone." we are ONLY loveable because we have been forgiven, even though we dont' deserve it. Period. Amen.

Nor do I; not in the respect that the verse is talking of.
Does that make my kindness and patience about pride? Does this say I glorify myself?

Actually, he was sacrificed for the sins of the world; the sacrificial lamb, not because He called "a spade a spade". It was simply God's will.


To that I say that the bible tells us that love is a host of things:

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35  By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Co 4:20  For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21  What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

1Jo 2:5  But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.

1Jo 3:11  For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
1Jo 3:18  My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.

1Jo 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God, and everyone who loves has been born of God, and knows God.
1Jo 4:8  The one who does not love has not known God. For God is love.

1Jo 4:11  Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
1Jo 4:12  No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us.
1Jo 4:13  By this we know that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1Jo 4:14  And we have seen and testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
1Jo 4:15  Whoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwells in him and he in God.
1Jo 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1Jo 5:1  Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. And everyone who loves Him who begets also loves him who has been born of Him.
1Jo 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.

2Pe 1:5  But also in this very thing, bringing in all diligence, filling out your faith with virtue, and with virtue, knowledge;
2Pe 1:6  and with knowledge self-control, and with self-control, patience, and with patience, godliness,
2Pe 1:7  and with godliness, brotherly kindness, and with brotherly kindness, love.
2Pe 1:8  For if these things are in you and abound, they make you to be neither idle nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9  For he in whom these things are not present is blind and cannot see afar off and has forgotten that he was purged from his sins in the past.
2Pe 1:10  Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.

What do all of things say to you about love? There's a heck of a lot more in the bible about love than what I've put here, and throughout the NT Jesus continually reaffirms the commandment "to love your neighbour as you love yourself".


Perhaps that's only your own perception of how YOU would feel. I'm not interested in beeing seen as kind, but in being kind. And in being patient, and long-suffering, loving etc. "By this shall ye know them."


Where do you think these qualities come from? Not from within ourselves, but from the spirit.


We are sanctified and made righteous through Christ, not loveable. You have an odd way at looking at the love of God. Yes, sometimes "tough love" is the thing to do, but not always. We need to learn how to balance the tough with the tender, as Christ did.

Gracey

Hi Heidi,
From your original post in this thread:
I think that excerpt stands very nicely all by it’s self.  I should think it would cause a Christian to do much soul searching.  Expanding on the thought by mentioning specific denominations, in my mind, acts to create an immediate debate rather than the individual soul searching that is needed – although if you hadn’t brought it up, I’m sure someone else would have (human nature?)  :)

Peace,
JN

then you should be for the catholic church.


absolutely true. that is why catholics do not worship the pope....at all. how you came to such a conclusion is beyond me but it is entirely inaccurate. what do catholics believe about the pope? that he is a sinner saved by grace, who holds a certain office instituted by christ for the benefit of His church.  


if you have a problem with people attacking people then why are you attacking people? since i have come to this board i have done nothing but try to defend the church from grossly innaccurate statemtents being made about it by those that would attack it. i have not started any thread with intent to criticize you or any other denomination, i have not tried to judge anyone elses heart even though they believe differently than me. what i have been busy doing is trying to correct the false statements that have been tossed about on this site concerning catholicism. in the end i believe that if people are to hate catholicism then they should do so, but they should not hate catholicism because of a stereotype but for what it really is.. and in the case of this post it is certainly not a religion where people worship a pope.


the catholic church believes this.


you cannot know this. it is simply a judgemental prejudice. and even if it were true the fact that you have to keep bringing up catholicism shows that bit of idolatry i was refering to in my response.


what you don't realise is that even if it just comes down to me and the bible it is still my interpretation of the bible i am counting on. so if the spirit is really in me and that is how i discern the truth of the bible then i would have to consider myself infallible. so would you. but you say that men connot be infallible as a proof against the papacy. i say that if it were up to the individual then why do all (spirit led) individuals contradict each other.

jesus gave to peter and the apostles the gift of binding and loosing. this is a term that the jews of jesus day understood as the ability to define doctrine. why would jesus have done this if it were up to the individual to interpret scripture? those by the way are christs words.


which is why the catholic church in the end is accused of being such a horrible thing. it has upheld truth and defended agaisnt heresy. from the gnostics and philosphers of the early church to the gnostics and philosophers of the new, it has kept it's doctrinal integrity and stood against wrong teaching. unfortunately this conservative approach to religion in not well accepted in the modern world where truth is a rubberband we can stretch to fit our own personal faith.

mike

we get defensive for the same reason i get defensive over my children being attacked or the bible being attacked or jesus being attacked or colored people being attacked or jews being attacked. we hate injustice.

Hbr 13:17   Obey your leaders and submit {to them,} for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

i believe you mistake worshiping the pope for simple obedience to our leaders.

mike

Gracey, only you yourself know your motives. That's why i said the true spiritual journey is a diificult one because it means we have to always look at the plank in our own eye. I do this everyday. I ask my self, "Am I doing this for my glory or God's?" Am I loving to get love back, or am I loving because God has forgiven me so why should i not forgive others? This is how we forgive our enemies. It's easy to love those who love us back. But how many of us love others who hate us? We cannot WILL ourselves to love others. "Love must be sincere." It must be heartfelt to be real. Once we see our own sin and how much of it we have, we can forgive others for theirs. This calls for true humility, a fruit of the spirit. Since we can't decide to love those we don't love, all we can do is ask God for his forgiveness for our hatred and it is THAT forgiveness that we give to our neighbor! That is how Jesus fulfilled the law for us. It is His love that we give, not for our pride or to show we're loving people, but only because of Hid grace. It has nothing to do with ME, and how good, loving, holy, kind, etc. I AM, but how loving, good, kind, etc. God is!!!

Why do you get defensive when your children are attacked, Blain? They are separate people from you, not an extension of yourself! They are responsible for their own actions. Jesus is the ONLY one who doesn't deserve to be attacked! He is the only innocent man whoever lived.

I accept those in authority, but that does not mean at all that i have to agree with them! Most people accept government leaders, but most people disagree with them all the time.

Worshiping simply means whoever you go to for the truth. You either go to men or Christ Himself. "He who is not with me is against me." Man is not God. You either worship one or the other.

The catholic church sees ITSELF as infallible, even if it disagrees with the bible. Their words and actions do not agree. They blatantly disobey Christ while saying they worship him at the same time. Actions show where our true hearts are. Again, David Koresh also SAID that Jesus was the only way to God. But he also saw HIMSELF as infallible as well.

I know MANY people who claim to worship Christ. But when push comes to shove, they love their money, reputation, beauty, intelligence more. "You cannot serve two masters." You are still confusing worship with outside behaviour like the jews do. Going to church, participating in the sacrements, etc. But it is what we worship in our HEARTS that shows wwho our gods are. "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure."

Okay, I see....I took this wrongly, I think. I also have learned that we must examine our own hearts always.


I don't personally know anyone who hates me; nor do I hate anyone myself, so this is a tough one for me. But yes, love must be sincere. We may not be able to will ourselves to love, that's true, but we must make the decision to ask God to help us love those we may consider our enemies. It's definitely not something we can do ourselves.


Perhaps I gave you the wrong idea with my post.....I wasn't indicating that it was in "my own self" that I could be loving and kind, but through Jesus.

I do believe we may be coming closer to an understanding!  :)


This wasn't addressed to me, but I can probably give you a bit of insight (not to Blaine, but to why people in general may feel this way). Children, when they are small, are defenseless. As parents it is our job to bring them up in the way of the Lord and protect them, nuture them and love them until they are able to stand on their own. And they are extensions of us, to some extent because they are our flesh and blood, but mostly, adults have a tendency to feel this way about any defenseless child - whether the child is our own, or someone elses.  We love them. We don't wish to see them hurt. Mostly, it's a human emotion. But God loves, protects and cares for His children, doesn't He?

No, Jesus doesn't deserve to be attacked, but to be frank, we shouldn't be "attacking" anybody. Jesus may have been the only "pure" person to live, but that doesn't mean He's the only one who shouldn't be attacked.  Actually, this might have more to do with "wordage" than actual meaning, so forgive me if I took it wrong (especially since you were addressing someone else and I just happened to jump in).


for clarity, the dictionary definition of Worship:

-A feeling of profound love and admiration
-Love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate
-Show devotion to a deity
-Attend religious services
-Worship (adoration) given to God alone


Gracey

Do you think our children are above repoach, Gracey? Many people get defensive when their children are attacked but they themselves attack their children all the time. (We're using the word "attack" as it was referred to in previous posts, i.e. saying they are wrong, etc.)

Gracey, do you know what Jesus means by; "For where your heart is, there also will be your treasure"? If you do, then you know what God means by worship.

I don't think anyone is above reproach, except maybe an infant. We teach children, not by "attacking" them but by correcting them. Perhaps I have mistaken the use of the word "attack". I don't really take the word "attack" to mean "reproach" or "correction". It seems so much more volatile.


Yes, I am aware of what the verse means, but worship means more than that. Much more. There are many ways in which we worship God.

Gracey

I am simply correcting the doctrine of the catholic church when it says it is infallible and we should call the pope our Holy Father. Unfortunately, the catholics see that as an attack. They probably consider it blasphemous as well because they see the pope as their god. They certainly defend him like he is. I do consider it blasphemous for so called "Christian leaders" to deliberately disobey Christ's words because it is indeed blasphemy to attack our Lord and Saviour.

It's the way that you go about it that makes it an attack.

Like this:
 
The catholics I know rarely even mention the Pope.  He gets at most one mention during the average catholic mass, and that is a prayer for him.  And yet, despite all the evidence to the contrary you think you can see into their hearts and determine that he is their god.   >:(


When you insist on making unsupported and untrue allegations, what do you expect them to do?

Catholics aren't disobeying Christ's words: they disagree with about what those words are meant to mean.  Now, you think they are wrong in their interpretation, and that's a valid position to take, but you then attack them as disobeying when what your position actually demands is to engage in a genuine debate over whose interpretation is the correct one.  To do that you've got to stop firing the accusations and actually engage in some logical argument, something you seem singularly incapable of.

"victims?"   Hmmmm??


Heidi: "The catholic congregation are victims of the teachings of the catholic church just like we are all victims of the teachings we receive.:

Never heard of any one coming to Christ refered to as a victim before.

Seems like a very strange way to describe it.

Is there scripture for, "we are all victims of the teachings we receive?"

Would not a better terminology be "disciples" in place of victims? Then we are only such if we learn, believe and enact the teachings.

Ollie

We most definitely are victims. If you grew up in Germany during the Nazi regime, why would you believe the Jews were good people? Who would have told you? Just a guess? Why would you think you were right if the majority thought you were wrong? That's why Jesus said, "No one can come to the Father unless the Father who sent me draws him." Do you not believe him?

Heidi, your thought processes are stunningly difficult to follow for the average person.



I'm not following the logic for this. I must be having a brain block.....   :) can you explain how these statements are related?


It would be a lot more effective to just quote the relavant verse and not add that at the end.