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I've lumped these two passages together, but they are best read this way.  Especially if you include chapter 14, but for sake of time and space, I just posted these.  Here's my thought:

How does the Body work best?  It works best when each member functions in its place with its gifts given by its Father.  The foot works best doing foot things, for the benefit of the body.  The eye works best when it watches out for the foot.  The hand works best when it protects the eye and helps out the foot in the task at hand.

How is this body working?  Weeeeelll...seems the foot is upset with the eye for its lack of understanding where its headed, and the eye's upset with the foot for not having the proper perspective of the journey at hand, while the hand's ticked off with having to do all of the carrying of this great burden while the eye and the foot argue about things most important to them.  A body does not work if it is divided.  A body works only when it is unifited in the task that it has to perform.

So I ask.  Is this body performing the task it was made to perform?

A body can only be unified if it is bound together by one entity. Jesus told us there would be many people who say 'Lord'Lord' but never KNEW Him. It is those who do not have the holy Spirit in them but only pay Him lip service whom we are fighting. We are either ruled by the Holy Spirit or the devil. The devil indeed can be a wolf in sheep's clothing. The sheep are His true believers. When wolves are dressed in sheep's clothing, they do indeed appear to be believers. It is they who try to divide us. But I find the real believers DO stick together. They are the ones who worship Christ alone. So even though it looks like there is division among believers, it is only wolves trying to get into the sheep pen disguised as sheep who create division. They are the ones who will say that we don't know what we are talking about even though we believe Jesus's words. Therefore, we have to stand firm and keep our eyes on Christ and His words.

I command you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at his appearing and his Kingdom: preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching. For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but, having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside to fables. But you be sober in all things, suffer hardship, do the work of an evangelist, and fulfill your ministry. For I am already being offered, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight. I have finished the course. I have kept the faith. (2Ti 4:1-7)

Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation... These are hidden rocky reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you, shepherds who without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; wild waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the blackness of darkness has been reserved forever... But you, beloved, remember the words which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you that "In the last time there will be mockers, walking after their own ungodly lusts." These are they who cause divisions, and are sensual, not having the Spirit. But you, beloved, keep building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. On some have compassion, making a distinction, and some save, snatching them out of the fire with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh. (Jud 1:3-23)

But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:14-17)

Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Act 20:26-30)

I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk worthily of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and humility, with patience, bearing with one another in love; being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in us all. But to each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ... He gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, shepherds and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, to the work of serving, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error; but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, Christ; (Eph 4:1-15)


Can you have true unity between two gospels?  One of grace and one of grace plus works (Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony).


I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. (Gal 1:6-7)

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Gal 3:2-3)

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)

Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through this Man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all things from which you could not (by the Law of Moses) be justified, by Him everyone that believes is justified. Watch therefore, lest there come upon you that which was spoken of in the prophets: "Behold, you despisers, and marvel and perish! For I will work a work in your days which you will by no means believe, though one were to declare it to you.' " ... On the coming Sabbath, almost all the city was assembled to hear the word of God. And the Jews, seeing the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and spoke against the things being said by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. But Paul and Barnabas, speaking boldly said, "It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken to you first; but since you thrust it away, and judge yourselves not worthy of eternal life; behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you to be a light of the nations, that you should be for salvation to the end of the earth.' " Now when the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region. (Act 13:38-49)

I agree with what you are saying, however, I have a hard time with the fact that you tend to say this any time someone disagrees with you.

You keep saying that you believe Jesus's words. Which words do you believe? Each translation of the Bible varies from the other. There are differences in the NIV, KJV, NKJV, etc. Which ones do you believe?

There might be some words that are different in the different translations, but the gist of the meaning is the same. Also, there is not a lot of variance between the 4 gospels either. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, focus on different things. But I believe that everything we need to know is in ANY Bible. God is in control of the universe and He decides what He will reveal to us.

Nice dodge.
You said you believe all of His words. They are different in each translation.

Which do you consider the most important? The words or their meaning?

You apparently haven't read "The Message" yet, then. Some of the words which are changed do, in fact, change the meaning when compared with the King James.


Gracey

Please give me an example, Gracey.

I started a poll in Bible Study about the different translations.

Perhaps we can discuss it there since I seem to have taken this thread off topic.

Sorry allinall.

Here is the Bible Study thread:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=20;action=display;threadid=3780

Jesus answered her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never thirst again; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life." The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water, so that I don't get thirsty, neither come all the way here to draw." Jesus said to her, "Go, call your husband, and come here." The woman answered, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her, "You said well, 'I have no husband,' for you have had five husbands; and he whom you now have is not your husband. This you have said truly." The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where people ought to worship." Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour comes, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, will you worship the Father. You worship that which you don't know. We worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to be his worshippers. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to him, "I know that Messiah comes," (he who is called Christ). "When he has come, he will declare to us all things." Jesus said to her, "I am he, the one who speaks to you." At this, his disciples came. They marveled that he was speaking with a woman; yet no one said, "What are you looking for?" or, "Why do you speak with her?" So the woman left her water pot, and went away into the city, and said to the people, "Come, see a man who told me everything that I did. Can this be the Christ?" They went out of the city, and were coming to him... From that city many of the Samaritans believed in him because of the word of the woman, who testified, "He told me everything that I did." So when the Samaritans came to him, they begged him to stay with them. He stayed there two days. Many more believed because of his word. They said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of your speaking; for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."(Joh 4:13-42)

Some believed because of the Word some believed because of the witness.

We know, brothers loved by God, that you are chosen, and that our Good News came to you not in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit, and with much assurance. You know what kind of men we showed ourselves to be among you for your sake. You became imitators of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit, so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia. For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything. (1Th 1:4-8)

Our faith comes from the written Word , the spoken Word , the Word written on our hearts and the Word demonstrated through others.  They all must be in agreement.  The written Word (scripture) is the constant by which the others can be measured...whether they are from God or man.

God is not mocked.  He preserves His Word in spite of man not because of man.  There are some versions of the "bible" that are not God's Word but are man's.  The Spirit of God within us will guide us from error to truth if we submit to His leading.

And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. (Heb 10:11-18)

For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2Co 13:4-5)

Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good. (1Th 5:19-21)

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1Jo 4:1)

Hi again, Heidi -

here are a few comparisons between KJV and The Message:

Modern King James

24  Jehovah shall make the rain of your land powder and dust. It shall come down from the heavens on you until you are destroyed.

10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

The Message

24  From out of the skies GOD will rain ash and dust down on you until you suffocate.

10  It was Sunday and I was in the Spirit, praying. I heard a loud voice behind me, trumpet-clear and piercing:

18  I'm Alive. I died, but I came to life, and my life is now forever. See these keys in my hand? They open and lock Death's doors, they open and lock Hell's gates.

Note that I've used the "modern" Kings James, although I generally use the King James. In the first verse, KJ says "until you are destroyed" and The Message says "until you suffocate" - now the end result basically is the same, but the verse is slightly changed.

The same holds true for the others. While this this is not the case for all the verses in the Message, it's enough to make one careful about what one says they believe. In other words, in reading the Message, do you believe that the method will be "suffocation", or do you simply believe "you will be destroyed"?

All I really wanted to point out was that one should be careful about saying you believe everything in every version, when they don't always match.

A "translation" is simply that... a translation of the text - the translation being done by men. Now, in truth the King James Version is also a translation, but since I can't read ancient Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic I must rely on something. Since (in the west anyway) the King James has been widely accepted for a very long time, it's probably a good choice, but I think the American Standard Version may actually be somewhat closer to the original translations.

Versions are the sort of thing that could be debated forever.


Gracey

You have effectively judged those who disagree with you doctrinally as being lost.  Granted, there are points of the salvation message that must be understood and accepted for that salvation to be of any affect.  However, in past posts, you have claimed salvation to be dependant upon baptism, and supported it with scriptures that were never meant to support such a concept.  Namely, because the bible does not teach that.  Those passages are misinterpreted and applied errantly to the book which states otherwise.  Seeing then we disagree on what God has made most simplistic...are you not calling Someone Lord without having ever known Him?  Note, I'm am not saying you are lost.  I am saying that you seek to add to the salvation God made simple an errant doctrine...much like the saved Jews at Galatia...You say it is they who try to divide us.  Who is "us" if we cannot agree on the simple truths of God's simple plan of salvation?

You say we are unified by One Entity.  God says we are unified in the diversity of that same Entity, and that body is reflective of the diverse, triune nature of that Entity, within its own diversity.  That is, many gifts are given, but not everyone of us possess each.  All are potential to be hoped for.  But each is given a diverse gift that the Spirit may be manifest, as we, by that Spirit, excersise those gifts for the benefit of the body.  Yet we fight, amongst the body, defending our position in the body, for the body, but at the cost of the functionality of that body.  And God is happy with us.  Because we do this, not in love, but in hopes of proving our point.  Argumentation without edification is useless.

This may seem harsh, but it is spoken/typed in love.  We fight with those we should lovingly win.  We lose them.  We call "bastard" what God may be calling "child" and hence, "brother."  We excersise the gifts He has given us, not in the love He spoke of through Paul in chapter 13, but for personal pride and gain in our standing amongst "brothers."  It is shame.  It is wrong.  We storm the gates of Hell, yes.  But we don't trample the lost along the way.  :)

I_Believe,

You said:


No.  You cannot.  Which is not what I am talking about.  I know Whom I have believed, and I am at odds with this continual trashing of the Catholics by my brothers and sisters in Christ.  I neither support, nor agree with Catholic doctrine.  Shoot man, ask Tibby or Michael if I'm a Catholic supporter!   :D  No.  I am not.  But I am also ABSOLUTELY NOT[/b] a Catholic trasher.

We are to excersise our gifts as a body in love to the glory of God as He builds His Church.  Hard to do when we're smacking those for whom He died, whether they be Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish or Buddhaisisstitissts.  Sorry.  Never can get the spelling of that one right.   :D

De nada mi amigo.  

Where did i say salvation was through baptism? Not only do i not believe that, i have NEVER believed that! I don't go to the Lutheran church because they believe we are saved when we are baptized. In fact, my posts have been about baptism of water and baptism of the holy Spirit being 2 separate entities. we are saved when we receive the Holy Spirit, period, which i don't believe comes at baptism, although it may. That is up to God. You must be confusing me with someone else, Allinall, or you misunderstood my posts. Jesus said; "eternal life is this; that you know the only true God and jesus Christ whom he sent." That's salvation in a nutshell.

True believers are unified by the Holy Spirit, period. The Holy spirit brings out our individual gifts. But believers are united in the fact that God saves us through Christ's death on the cross and His body residing inside of us. Jesus said; "He who is not with me is against me." That's how believers are united. The problem comes when those who CLAIM to be with Him, are not. Their hearts have not been changed by the Holy Spirit so they simply pay Jesus lip service. These are wolves in sheep's clothing who "honor with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Their lips honor him but their hearts still belong to th devil. There are MANY such people. Jesus said; "Few will be saved." I believe Him.

Nope!  Confused something you'd said much earlier that I wrote off and never pursued/realized at the time but having the old faulty memory I have forgot it!  ;D  This was the post that I remember misunderstanding...


In that thread, someone else must have misconstrued that passage of scripture and I attributed it to you.  Forgive me?


But not that simply.  You have such desire to teach Heidi...can you be taught?  Because that statement lacks the depth to which God states His truth in the passage posted.


To what end?  

So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church. Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up...Let all things be done for building up... For God is not a God of confusion but of peace... If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done decently and in order. (1Co 14:12-40)

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love. (Eph 4:11-16)

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I want to stay on topic, so let me see if I understand the primary purpose of this thread.

It really boils down to love shown to others by those who call Jesus Christ their Lord and Saviour. There are many words and phrases in the Holy Bible that are used to describe love, specifically as it relates to THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

The huge problem we have today is love between the members of THE BODY OF CHRIST who are still physically alive. There is also a huge problem of love shown to the lost. These aren't just problems, rather they are direct violations of the two greatest commandments given to us by our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Our greatest problems would be solved if we: (1) Love the Lord Jesus with all of our heart; (2) Love one another as Christ has loved us. Our Lord says "If you love Me, keep My commandments." HE loved us enough to be crucified on the cross in our place.

The Apostle Paul addresses our biggest problems by talking about the Unity of the Spirit and the bond of peace. Doesn't this really boil down to a failure to obey the two greatest commandments? Without love, what do we have? The answer is given in many portions of Scripture, but we can all see the reality here on Christians Unite and in our daily lives everywhere. We see the disobedience of God's children and the result of that disobedience. In case you are wondering, the result is the opposite of the Unity of the Spirit and the Bond of Peace. This should be more than enough to cause all Christians to pray about this daily. Our desire should be to yield and obey God and pray for forgiveness for our miserable failures.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen Tom



Very good question. I think we  perform our individual tasks best when we focus on what we are supposed to be doing and not on what others are doing.  The Word must first be used as a MIRROR. The following passage says this very well, it focuses on MY need to be adaptable, humble, subjective, willing to change, and in short, all that I can be so that I might save others.

1Co 9:19  For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1Co 9:20  And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
1Co 9:21  To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
1Co 9:22  To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some.
1Co 9:23  And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with [you].
1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they [do it] to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

The Holy Spirit is what leads us toward spiritual maturity, not ourselves. That's why they are called the fruits of the SPIRIT. We can no more decide to obey the law, or love our neighbor, than we can decide to forgive.  That ability comes from God's love, freely given for us. All God wants from us is the truth. When I admit how much I do NOT love my neighbor, then the love, forgiveness, and mercy that he gives me is what i give to my neighbor! The more sins i confess and have His forgiveness come into me, then I'm literally dying to myself and hopefull some day, all I'll have left in me is the spirit! This is how he fulfilled the law for us! That is why Jesus said, "The work of God is this; to believe in the one He sent." His spirit does the rest. If I take any credit for my goodness, then I'm indulging in the sin of pride. So many Christians are still trying to obey the law. But we are no longer under law but Grace. Again, it is His spirit that does it all.

Of course I forgive you, Allinall! I obviously make mistakes everyday!

Right On :)

Brother, it is pro-truth not anti-Catholic or anything else. "I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News".

What are you unified with?  Do think the Gospel of Sacraments is the same Gospel that the Apostles presented?

Catholic doctrine says that unless you fulfill the sacraments you are not saved.  Do you believe that Gospel?


And this until we all come into the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we no longer may be infants, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, in the dishonesty of men, in cunning craftiness, to the wiles of deceit. But that you, speaking the truth in love, may in all things grow up to Him who is the Head, even Christ; from whom the whole body, fitted together and compacted by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of each part, producing the growth of the body to the edifying of itself in love. (Eph 4:13-16)

Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints. (Jud 1:3)

Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom, preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths. But you watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry. For I am already being poured out, and the time of my release is here. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith. (2Ti 4:1-7)

What "sound doctrine"?  The doctrine that the apostles preached and recorded or that of man's traditions that came 50, 100, 300 years later?

But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? "We, being Jews by nature, and not Gentile sinners, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law, because no flesh will be justified by the works of the law. But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a law-breaker. For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. I don't make void the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!" (Gal 2:11-21)

"I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned"  So Paul was anti-Peter and anti-law?  No, he was pro-truth.  "I saw that they didn't walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News".

And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. (Rom 11:6)

Grace is the power and faith is the key.

AMEN!!!![/b]  But how are we to speak that truth, a truth that I do doctrinal adhere to?  With hatred, or speech that is perceived as such by its very nature?  Truth hurts, but it doesn't hate.


I, stating again, am not a supporter of Catholic doctrine.  I am a support of biblical truth.  In that, that Christ came in the flesh, born of a virgin, lived a sinless life and died a perfect sacrifice for my sin on the cross of Calvary, was buried and risen again as proof of my redemption.  It is confession of sin, and faith in His completed work that grants me salvation and that alone.  Communion is a rememberance of what He did for me, and no, the Catholic Sacremental system I do not believe is the Gospel message presented by the Apostles.  Let me note here as well, I am not posting this to trash Catholics, nor am I posting it to debate.   :)


Nope!  My sins were washed away with the blood of Jesus and I am His and He is mine.


My point is simply this...do we contend with anger and hatred, and alienate those for whom Christ died...or do we simply state truth, and let the truth either unite or alienate those who would contend with us?  I do not see simple truth being lovingly spoken in these threads.  I see points being made by prideful people who would rather debate than defend.  Defense is for the brethren.  Not for those who are not brothers.  According to y'all...they aren't brothers.  So who exactly are you defending?  Or what?  Are we to defend truth, or those who are hearing untruths?  Perception I believe is wrong here, my friend.   :)


That of the Apostles.  But whomst are we to rebuke, exhort, and reprove?  The lost man, or the believer being led astray?  And how are we to do so?  "With all longsuffering."  Not hatefully and hastilly as though we are saving anyone, or protecting anything.  Rather, that we, as a body, strengthen and build one another up in the faith of the scriptures...NOT[/b] traditions of men.  

Who then are you defending, and who then are you reproving, rebuking, exhorting and loving?  Brothers?  Or the lost?

Oklahoma Howdy to Allinall,

AMEN BROTHER! I love the way you said that. I think this subject requires daily prayer from all of us for guidance, wisdom, and the LOVE we are to have in our hearts. I'm positive that the second greatest commandment, Love one another as Christ has loved us, can't be accomplished without asking Jesus to work in us and through us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen Brother Tom!