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 The Witnesses keep telling anyone who will listen that they are the Jews, and at one time they were convinced that they were the 144,000 from Revelations and once their numbers reached the 144,000 the end of the world would be upon us all. Trouble was that when their numbers actually reached the 144,000 the world didn't end. Then they actually bi-passed the number. They quickly received (new light) and now they tell anyone who will listen that within the J.W. ranks are a "special" 144,000 who will actually reside in Heaven with God at the end of days, and their "lesser" congregation will spend eternity, not in Heaven with God, but rather, in Paradise on earth. ::)

 The truth of the matter is that the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation are actually real 100% bonafide Jews. Not make believe, or "spiritual" wannabee Jews.

Bronzesnake

No such thing as a PARTIAl rapture. The BODY of Chhrist is never divided. The TRUMP of 1 Thess is not the last trump of Rev either.

aw

 It's not the "last trump" of Revelation which sounds at the Rapture my friend...It's "God's" last Trump.

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  

 Sometimes an angel is sounding the trump such as...

 Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.  

 Look for yourself my friend. The last time you will find God sounding a trump is at the Rapture, found in 1Th 4:16 you won't find God sounding a trump after that, therefore it is the "final trump of God". After that, you will see that the remaining trumps are blown by angels.

 Take care...

 Bronzesnake.

Partial rapture is the only possibility.


Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

Thessalonians 4.16-17 Do not these verses speak of rapture? Obviously they do, yet they do not specify what time. They deal with the fact of rapture, not with the time of rapture. Thus, they can not be used to prove pre-tribulation rapture.

1 Corinthians 15.50-52 Whether dead or living, all will be raptured. Yet, again, it presents the fact of rapture without specifying a time sequence that would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture. On the contrary, it can be used to prove a post-tribulation rapture. “At the last trump” is a descriptive phrase that is equal to the seventh trumpet cited in Revelation 11.15. Some people advance the theory that according to Roman custom the trumpets are sounded three times. But the Holy Spirit follows no Roman law.

Before the Great Tribulation, the Holy Spirit returns to heaven. Since the church is with the Holy Spirit, it may be assumed that the whole church is raptured before the Great Tribulation. The basis for this assumption is 2 Thessalonians 2.6-7 where the phrase “one that restraineth” is made to refer to the Holy Spirit. Yet “one that restraineth” cannot be the Holy Spirit, for the subsequent clause - “until he be taken out of the way”- is not the proper terminology to be used in speaking about the Holy Spirit. The Third Person of the Trinity has many different names, such as the Spirit, the Spirit of glory, the Spirit of revelation, etc; and the word “Spirit” is usually present - and even though in one instance the word “Comforter” is used alone, yet from the next clause which follows (“even the Spirit of truth”) it is evident that this has clear reference to the Holy Spirit (John 14.16-17). Never do the Scriptures say the Holy Spirit is “he that restrains”; moreover, how can the Holy Spirit be said to “be taken out of the way”? Furthermore, where does the Bible announce that the Holy Spirit is absent during the Great Tribulation? And how can there be the so-called believers of the Great Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not present? For no one is saved without the Holy Spirit, He who is born of the Spirit is spirit. Moreover, this matter of the Holy Spirit’s presence during the Great Tribulation is clearly shown in Revelation 5: “and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth” (v.6).  The time of the Great Tribulation is the time of the latter rain (see Acts 2.15-21, Joel 2.28-31). The prophecy of Joel was not completely fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. For on that day there were no “wonders in the heaven and in the earth: blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke”; nor was “the sun . . . turned into darkness, and the moon into blood” (Joel 2.30-31). All of these five wonders will be fulfilled around and in the time of the Great Tribulation: blood (first trumpet), fire (first and second trumpets), smoke (fifth trumpet), sun and moon (sixth seal). Pentecost is only a miniature, a foretaste. Peter does not say: “It is fulfilled”; he merely says that “this is that” (Acts 2.16). As a matter of fact, the Holy Spirit is going to do greater work during the time of the Great Tribulation. If there will not be the Holy Spirit present, how can the saints ever endure during the Great Tribulation?

Of course the 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are bonafide Jews. But the 144,000 are not required to be Jews but can come from any nation. The latter 144,000 are those closest to Christ in the past 2000 years. Once their full number comes in, then first rapture can take place of God's overcomers who are "taken" ready to be received not having to go through the time of testing because they can no longer be hurt by the second death while the left (Matt. 24.37,40-41) also Christians are received at the last trumpet before the bowls as a matter of completion of the body of Christ raptured.

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (8)   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.



Some of us are ready to be received sooner than others. There are harbingers in every sphere and advanced parties. It is the very fact that those who are finally ready which causes the war in heaven casting Satan down.

You are both partly right. In the OT all the Word can do is speak in generalities as they pertain to the Last Week Tribulation. But that is what the book of Revelation is for, to give the details and new revelation in it. Its new revelation is that the TRUMP of GOD is broken up into 7 trumpet of 7 years. Each trumpet is of unequal time. Before the first trumpet is rapture of those who are ready, who kept the Word of His patience and were accounted worthy (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36) who escape the Hour of trial, not just trial but the Hour of time itself. This is the only way God preserves an assurance. Then at the last trumpet of the 7 trumpets right before the bowls the rest of the body is raptured, those who are "taken and left" (1 Thess. 4.15-17)obviously since there were those who were "taken" (Matt. 24.37,40-41)  before hand at first rapture (Rev. 7.9).

You guys, stop contending with each other and come together pre+post.

Praise the Lord! Come, come now.

 This according to the Bible as misinterpreted by  Christinme.

 The 144,00 are Jews, period. Unless you can show me otherwise in the scriptures , and I know you can't my friend. That convoluted reasoning you used to attempt to either split or double the 144,000 does not stand up at all.

 Allow me to make in perfectly clear for you as to who these 144,00 are according to God.

 Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  


 Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.  


 
 That is just twisted my friend. Please, just stick to what God actually says, don't reinvent the wheel.  Michael and his legion of angels do war with satan and cast him out, and I believe there is very good evidence that shows the battle between Michael and satan happens three and a half years after the Rapture, and culminates with satan being tossed from Heaven and down to earth.

 
 That's just ridiculous! The body of Christ is the Christian church. The Christian church is not a reference to a building, it is the Christians as a group. The body means all Christians.

 There is one place in the New Testament which depicts Christians being Raptured...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  


 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 The only other time we find Christians going to Heaven after that in the New Testament is those who missed the Rapture and are saved ( many by the testimony of the converted 144,000 Jews who are responsible for saving many) Those who are behead for refusing the mark of the beast and for refusing to worship his statue.

 Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  


 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

 I have a couple of questions for you my friend...

 Is Jesus Christ God? and which Bible are you useing...KJV? NIV? or NWT?

Don't you know that a partial rapture creates another problem??

It creates the problem of creating a dichotomy, two classes of Christian believers. One class (the ones taken) are saved. The other class (the ones not taken) are only half-saved.

Please explain how that can be (according to the Word). Doesn't God say that if you are saved you are "saved to the UTTERMOST", meaning completely?

Saved or lost...there is NO middle ground. One or the other. X's and O's. P's & Q's. Redeemed or unredeemed. No such thing as a lay-away plan. Paid for IN FULL. Bought 'n paid for. Finished. Complete.

Really!? How's that?
Let's see....at the trump, the "dead in Christ" shall rise first.  What's that? Those who have die "IN CHRIST". Ok...they are in Christ. Then "we who are alive....". What we? We who are also in Christ? Or we who are only partway in Christ? Or we who have one foot in church, the other in the gutter? Or we who don't believe at all?  Hmmmm. I think Paul meant we who (are in Christ also) and are still alive, not being dead and in the grave.

So what are the two classes?


You're right there....Jesus was talking about those who are His and those who aren't His....saved or lost....redeemed or unredeemed....sheep or goat. No half-way measures there. You're His or not. He's gotcha, or He hasn't. Taken (if His) and left (if not His). Black and white, no gray area there.


Might be a debatable point. Please define for us when this 2nd coming occurs (in your opinion). Is it a coming in the air, or is it a coming on Mt. Zion with feet on the ground? Or is it a coming in the heart of the believer? That's a pretty blanket statement, and there do happen to be eleventy dozen or so definitions of "coming" floating around in the Christian world today, so please clarify.  Thanks.

Rev. 3.10 says that those who are ready may escape along with Luke 21.36. Not all Christians will be ready at first rapture, and not all Christians will be called out of the church in Rev. 2 & 3 like those who receive a white stone or who sit on thrones, for these are those of the first resurrection, the "best" "out-of" resurrection from the conglomerate of parousia of  resurrection.

In order to commence the war in heaven the manchild overcomers in Christ must be born, that is first availed to be first raptured at first rapture at the start of parousia, that is, presence of Christ. The newly clothed resurrected and raptured at first rapture will eventually with Michael cast Satan out of heaven as the falling start at Rev. 9.1. Praise God. Who are these first raptured? (see bottom link).

14.1-5 “THE FIRST FRUITS”

 

14.1        Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

 

Who are the 144,000? The 144,000 cited in Revelation 7.4 and 144,000 spoken of here in 14.1 are two different classes of people, contrasted as follows:

 

       (1)   The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.              

            (2)   The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.

            (3)   The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father).

            (4)   Throughout the entire book of Revelation the Lord calls God as Father each time. And He always says it in connection with the church (1.6, 2.27, 3.5, 3.21). The Lord never uses it in connection with Israel.

            (5)   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.

            (6)   The song they sing is described in 14.3 as a new song, whereas the song the people mentioned in 7.4 sing is but an old song.

            (7)   The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.)

            (8)   The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

 

14.1 The group of 144,000 here is a special class of people in the church; they are not all the people of the church. And the reasons for this conclusion are as follows:

 

(1) Since the 144,000 figure in 7.4 is taken literally, the number here should also be reckoned as literal.

(2) This group being the first fruits (14.4), it cannot be said that the entire church makes up the first fruits.

(3) There is no such fact that the people in the entire church keep their virginity.

(4) Prior to the arrival of the Great Tribulation (for it is before the voices of the three angels are heard, 14.6-11), these people are already raptured to Mount Zion.

(5) 14.5 tells of the exceptional features of these people, concerning which it cannot be said that all the born-again ones possess such characteristics.

 

Consequently, the 144,000 standing on Mount Zion are the best of the overcomers of the church; that is to say, this group of 144,000 is representative of the totality of the overcomers.

 Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life, If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.

100% bonafide "jews"? There are 12 tribes listed in revelation, which were hebrews. The only ones called Jews were of the 2 southern tribes of Judah. The 2 beasts represent the 2 nations of the House of Israel out of Egypt after the split of Solomon: the House of Judah(2 southern tribes) and the House of Israel (10 northern scattered tribes). The 10 horns of the beast of the sea represent the 10 northern tribes(rome), and the beast of the earth with 2 horns represent the 2 tribes of Judah(Jerusalem). This has nothing to do with "futuristic beasts".
    The true jew is the ones that believe in Jesus Christ, as the 144000(figurative number) are the ones that were sealed and saved during the 3 and half years of roman invasion in pre 70ad. The siege of Jerusalem lasted only about 6 months, but none of the ones that were believers in Christ were killed.
       This is the way I have seen it in revelation, which is the destruction of the "Harlot/woman" by the beast she was laying in bed with, Rome.

Just as Genesis spoke of the eternity past, Revelation addresses eternity future. With the book of Revelation written in 95 AD it is talking about the future, events not yet happened in addition to the church age of the past 20 centuries, not a mear history book but telling us what is to come for our spiritual benefit and for the world.

That is why you don't judaize Christianity for then only learned historians would be saved, you would be blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age so you can live evilly, and having no faith that Jesus Christ can return to reign in Person for a 1000 years is also deadness of the spirit taking away reward for overcoming in Christ so that you can remain soulical. God's way is in the spirit.

The beasts are two, a false prophet and the Antichrist who have not yet come. The 144,000 in Rev. 14 are virgins close to Christ who are Christians. The 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 are not Christians but a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation God promises. In Matt. 24.13,14 the Jews testify to the world of the sovereign God by their desparate actions.

This should not be construed as the sealed 144,000. The sealed 144,000 has direct meaning in Rev. 7.1-8, not the 144,000 of Rev. 14.1, that a preserved remnant of the Jewish nation will be saved. The reason this is so hard for so many to understand is because most are legalists and don't let their spirit be reached by depth of God's meaning.

Praise God!

christinme...
 You ascribed the following quote to me. I did not say that.
 It is a quote from inhimitrust.

 
 I believe what God says about the 144,000.

Sure Jerusalem fell in Matt. 24.2 but let your emphasis not be romanistic and historicalistic for God has much to say about the future even with new revelation in the book of Revelation for end-times written in 95 or 96 AD for past your focus.

We are currently in 24.7-8 right now.

The Great Tribulation will be 24.13-31

Our emphasis is something far greater, a being raptured to the throne at first rapture Rev. 7.9 before the trumpets are blown in the last week consummation of this age to escape the Hour of trial based only on readiness and a receiving for overcoming.

If we as Christians are not ready we will without a doubt go through the time of testing for further cleansing to be martyred or to be alive and left at the last trumpet resurrection to be raised with those resting in Christ.

Your reward for overcoming to be one of those of the first resurrection that spans parousia will be given to you if you keep the Word of His patience and are delivered from the natural self so that you can no longer be hurt by the second death.

By blunting the solemn warning at the end of this age you make it so you don't think you have to know the wrath of God, reflecting your current condition right now, and if you take away the millennial reign in the future you destroy rewards and the Bible becomes merely a historical document of no revelatory significance. You might as well throw it out for it becomes the same as other books, merely well written prose. Moreover only learned historians could be saved.

Have you no faith that Christ can return in Person to reign for 1000 years before the commencement of the new city? 6 times is the millennium mentioned from verse 2 to verse 7 in chapter 20. Is this not enough emphasis for you to let go of spiritualizing the millennial reign and accept its literal fact?

Do not read your Biblle with your flesh for you are shownig your true colors in so doing. Yes I can see you, what you are holding onto.

Just because Inhimtrust is wrong does not mean you are not wrong. You do not believe what the 144,000 means because it is fully proven in in reply #7. Fact and conclusion = it is impossible for the 144,000 in Rev. 7 to be the same group as those in Rev. 14, for the former clearly pertain to the Jewish remnant while the latter clearly are those virgin Christians closest to Christ the past 20 centuries. One speaks of the promise God has held to preserve a remnant and the latter speaks of the fullness of the body of Christ coming into fruition of firstfruits completed and a first rapture and the war in heaven begins before Satan is cast down at midtrib Rev. 9.1, a star. The negative consequence of what you believe then becomes inordinately judaistic and not spiritually allowing to seek the prize of attainment to receive the reward.

Praise the Lord!

 I try to be patient with my fellow Christians here my friend, but you make it very difficult.
 Your arrogance is only outmatched by your ignorance of God's Word.
 You can go ahead and continue to get your information from some web site which is full of assumption and convoluted reasoning. I will stick to the Holy Bible and believe exclusively in what God says.

 The danger of putting your faith in the material from a web site is obvious. I can point you to several dozen web sites that make all kinds of ludicrous claims about God and the Bible. Recently, on this very forum there was postings from a nut-bar who claimed to be Jesus himself!

 One thing remains as fact...you claim I'm wrong, that's fine my friend, but it's only an opinion from an admitted new Christian who believes he has all the answers. On the other hand, there is absolutely no doubt what so ever, that you made a mistake by ascribing a quote to me that was not mine. You are wrong!

 Take care my friend, if you decide to come down off your cloud and truly want to understand what God says, there are a lot of experienced Christians here, including myself, who will be ready and willing to help you out. Until then, bye.

 Bronzesnake.

Hmmm. I am lost on those last replies. I can't tell who is talking to who.
   Bronze, who were you referring to?

Sounds like your arrogance and your ignorance.

It is my website, my thought given by God and though you will accuse of such things I don't recall you showing otherwise, so don't be a false blamer for in so doing you are full of assumption and convoluted reasoning. If you are sticking to the Holy Spirit and believe what God says they you won't confuse the 144,000 for clearly those in Rev. 7.1-18 are not the same as those in 14.1. Let go of your convoluted reasoning and see God's reasoning which I have fully supplied already fitting the Scriptures perfectly that testify to this fact with so many reasons it is undeniable. As a consequence of this you are not treating God's three groups properly - Jewish nation, Christians and the gentile nations. You would be mixing the first two groups horribly for 7.1-8 is a remnant preserved, while 14.1 are those closest to Christ and they are virgins too, virgin firstfruits. Why does this offend you unless you are convinced in your judaizing Christianity? Let it go. It is not of God and never will be so best you accept now.

You have found yourself a little excuse haven't you, blaming something. What are you blaming? A website - my website, my thoughts, my believes, and the fullness of reason laid why the 144,000 Rev. 14.1 can not be nor ever will be those of Rev. 7.1-8. Here it is again, for you, a gift,

The evidence is overwhelming which proves that you are still clinging to your fleshing judaizing. Let it go.

You are looking for excuses, eg. "new Christian". You keep reaching for examples intead of doing the one thing you have failed to do all along, examine the information. It won't bite. See what has been put porth. Don't already decide ahead of time. You will change and you will stop confusing groups 1 and 2. God never confuses God's chosen ones whom He first revealed Himself too as a nation, to the body of Christ. This is your grave mistake and what is most troubling is the real underlying reason you do this.

Here is another excuse you made - you said I have all the answers. No I don't, but you say this as an excuse again not to look at the information and gathers bits and pieces to see if what I have said is indeed true. I know you are afraid to look, but you owe it to yourself to look. Don't be afraid. My prayers will be with you. Yes. You will need to make some changes in your system, but is that really such a bad thing?


Remember, this is your high horse for pretrib. onlyism taking away the hope of the church based on readiness and allowing yourself not to ever realize when the Tribulation occurs so that when it happens you will take the mark of the beast. You are setting yourself to do the unthinkable assuming it is not the unthinkable when you do it because you assume you are not in the Tribulation if you are in that last generation. This being mearing a reflection of your condition now.

Let go of your petty self and stay on the topice at hand, revealed here,

Such perfect sound reasoning should not go unnoticed otherwise how can you receive deliverance if you still hang your hat in confusing groups 1 and 2.


Here is another excuse. All to avoid and not discuss the information when you said "cloud" blaming. Let go of your blaming attitude and try and understand what I am revealing to you if you hath an ear to hear. Indeed, experience can be a cloud that can blind someone for a very long time, even forever, so come down, and discuss the information and its details which if you do and if you are a Christian I am convinced you will come to acceptance. This is the third time I have posted this link in my response.

Examine the first 8 reasons in section 14.1 first.


Take some precious time, with your Bible, and examine deeply, prayerfully each of these verses cited, the reason given, and see if it holds true. If so you will have to let go of your current system of belief. That is a good thing. Praise the Lord! How often we think we know something only later to find out we didn't really know at all. It is time for you to know now. Wake up!

CIM...

 Wrong again my friend!

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.  

 The 144,000 of Rev 14:1 are clearly identified with God's name written in their foreheads.

 Hey, what an amazing coincidence! so are the 14,000 from Rev 7:3! What's the odds of that? The exact same number, 144,000 and they have the name of God written in their foreheads.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

 Every place in the Bible where the Twelve Tribes are mentioned, they are all, without exception, clearly identified as JEWS. So who do you think people should believe? God's Word taken literally and straight from His Book...or a one year old Christian who has his own web site filled with convoluted thinking based on years...I mean, months of study?

 If it wasn't so serious it would be a joke my friend.
 I have to seriously wonder about the stability and state of mind of a person with one years exposure to the Bible and Christianity, which is the only book that he admittedly has ever read. You don't honestly expect to be taken seriously, do you?

 Gen 49:28 All these [are] the twelve tribes of Israel: and this [is it] that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.


Exd 24:4 And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exd 28:21 And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, [like] the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.


Exd 39:14 And the stones [were] according to the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, [like] the engravings of a signet, every one with his name, according to the twelve tribes.

Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This [shall be] the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph [shall have two] portions.


Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jam 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


Rev 21:12 And had a wall great and high, [and] had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are [the names] of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


Jos 3:12 Now therefore take you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, out of every tribe a man.


Jos 4:8 And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the LORD spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there.

1Ki 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:

Ezr 6:17 And offered at the dedication of this house of God an hundred bullocks, two hundred rams, four hundred lambs; and for a sin offering for all Israel, twelve he goats, according to the number of the tribes of Israel.

 Humble yourself, and take heed of these words, straight from Jesus...

 1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.  

 No one...no one! should get God's Word from a web site. You have actually made it painfully clear as to the dangers which could befall anyone who does. You are a new Christian, and are in a state of extreme arrogance to believe you have any answers at all, let alone enough to fill an entire web site. Get down off your dunce stool and pray to God for forgiveness of your foolishness before it's too late my friend.

 Answer yourself this one question...If you had to have your entire break system on your car replaced and your engine rebuilt, who would you trust to do it...a first year apprentice, or a fully licensed mechanic with years of experience? It's scary enough to think your life could be in the hands of a novice mechanic, but how much scarier is it to put your eternal soul in the hands of a Christian novice?

 I wonder how honest your reply will be.

 Bronzesnake.

 IHIT...



 I'm talking to christinme. He incorrectly ascribed one of your quotes to me, so I corrected him.

I made a booboo in the previous post. It should read Rev. 7.1-8, not Rev. 7.1-18.

I have not ascribed one of his quotes to you Snake. This is your fantasy. It is your error.


This is not a game of odds. They both have the name of God. Sealed in the foreheads means sealed in their minds, God sealing as a result, both the 144,000 Jewish remnant and the 144,000 virgin Chrisitian firstfruits, one spoken of at 7.3 and the other spoken of at 14.1. Don't escape these 8 points,
in 14.1 nor the 5 points in 14.3. You seem to blithe over them, but please consider them closely.

The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.


I am not a one year old Christian, but a Christian of several years. Let go of your overassuming nature. 12 distinctly refers to the 12 tribes of th Jewish remnant of Rev. 7.1-8 so you need not argue this point for it does not help your case. It is unethical of you to say I don't believe this when I do, since I have said so several times already. It is also unethical of you to falsely accuse me with more debasing terminology without you giving proof. Not once have you done this, yet you blame profusely. Don't be a false accuser for that is name ascribed to Satan. If you don't want God to cast you down also, you should humble yourself and let God humble you, even His children.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.


You sound like you are talking about someone else for these things you accuse me of, none of them are me. Let yourself deal with the points that have been set before you, that is the 8 points identified in Rev. 14.1 and the 5 points of 14.4.

Clearly, we must admit together that those in Rev 14.1-5 are not those of Rev. 7.1-8. God is not so sloppy with terminology, therefore it is impossible guaranteed that they are not the same. You can blame all you like, but the fact remains, you don't deal with these 13 points and you accuse me of things that I am not. You sound like you have me confused with someone else or you are being purposefully deceitful with a lowhanded unethical approach. Let it go, put it on the cross and let it die.

(cont'd below)

christinme...

 Which Bible are you reading? NWT I bet. If it is, then be honest and admit it.

 
 Now you are just plain lying my friend.
 The first time I corrected you on this, you responded by saying the following...


 As you can see my oft' wrong friend, you did indeed misquote me, as in evidenced by your post ( Re:Don't you know partial rapture solves the problem!!
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2004, 04:21:21 AM »)

 Then, you admitted you made a mistake, but tried in vain to cover it up. Now, you simply lie, and tell me I'm fantasizing!  ;D  

 More twisted reasoning...

 Your grammar is horrible my friend, and hard to decipher at times ( most times) but I get your drift...and you are severely confused!
 
 Please show me the verses which use this exact terminology to differentiate between these two groups of 144,000.

 You can't do it because you made it up yourself!

 Read the verses you pointed out and let's compare what you claim they say, and what God actually says...


 First of all let's look at Rev 7:3...

 According to you, it speaks of...

 Let's see what it really says...

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 Wrong...again!

 You claim the next verse Rev 14:1 speaks of ...



God says...
 Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. ( Who is Jesus' father? what's that? oh, God! )


Both verses have "God's" seal in their foreheads, not the foolish nonsensical rabble you tried to pass off.

 To continue on next post...

Let me clear things up for you even though I doubt it will take...

 The 144,000 as seen in Rev 7:3 are Jews who converted to Christianity during the Tribulation Hour. God commands His angels not to begin their destruction of the earth until He has put His seal in their foreheads, thus, protecting the newly saved 144,000.

 When we look carefully at Rev 14:1 we see Jesus standing on Mount Sion, and He's not alone. The 1444,000 are with Him. It's the very same 144,000 that received God's seal in their foreheads in Rev 7:3. You'll notice the different grammatical terminology used which differentiates between the two verses...( I'm not going too fast am I? )

 In Rev 7:1 they are receiving the seal of God. In Rev 14:1 they are not receiving the seal - they already have the seal! They got the seal back in Rev 7:3, during the Tribulation, before Jesus returned. However, in Rev 14:1 Jesus has returned, and He is standing with the 144,000.

 Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 
 Are you for real? Every response to you that I have posted has Biblical comparisons between your nonsense and what God actually says. Can you read? Or are you so blinded by your own narcoses that you can not accept anything except your own convoluted ramblings?

 

 You keep eluding to your web site. Any idiot with a severe case of narcissistic verbal diarrhea can make any outlandish claim he or she wants to. We are dealing with the Holy Bible here my friend, so I don't need to read your CRAP to know what God is telling me. I have several Bibles, thanks any way.

 

 Finally! you admit it's impossible that they are not the same.
 In other words, they are the same! :P

 
 OH, oh! I actually agree with you on the first part of this quote. However, you return to form with the remainder of the quote.
 The twelve elders are obviously a combination of Old and New Testament saints. They are never called archangels, that's another one of your incorrect assertions. They are called ELDERS, and are depicted wearing white raiment, with crowns upon their heads. That makes it undeniable that they are men, not angels.

 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  



 How old are you? Judging by your grammar, I'm beginning to think you are a child. I did not say I didn't believe it was your web site. I said you were arrogant to believe you had enough knowledge to fill an entire web page. I say this because of your bizarre interpretation of God's Word. You never seem to take God exactly as presented, instead, you confuse, and distort with your own ideas.

 The following verse makes it clear that God can be trusted. His Word can and must be taken literally and at face value. In other words, don't add your own screwed up interpretations.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  

 
 Yes, I have, because that is what God says...

This is what God says.
 Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.  

 Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.  

 Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.  

  Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.
 

 There are some confused, mentally imbalance people who will tell us there are not 144,000 Jews, there are actually 288,000, half Jews and the other half "virgin, Christian, firstfruits" It doesn't seem to matter to these mentally unstable people that there is a clear cut description of 144,000 as being from "the tribes of the children of Israel" and there is not one single verse or hint of another 144,000 who are described as "virgin, Christian, firstfruits" Why would God give such a detailed description of one group of 144,000 and not the other? The best these deeply disturbed people can do to prove they are correct is rely heavily on vague, convoluted reasoning and innuendo...oh ya, some can direct us to their web sites...Ya, that's credible!

 Listen my friend. I have really had enough of your verbal diarrhea. Go ahead and ramble on. Keep trying to lure people to your web site by throwing out semi-retarded, irresistible challenges, such as...

 
 This quote speaks volumes of your narcissism in believing you are as Christ to reveal to those who have an ear to hear.

 Let go of your blaming attitude and try and understand what I am revealing to you if you hath an ear to hear.

 No thanks Bozo. I trust Jesus over you any and every day! ;D

 Bronzesnake.... Threshing out the lies!

  The big clue should be the 12 tribes mentioned. It is because of that, that we can identify the 2 beasts(nations) in revelation.
      Once you see the 10 horns of the beast of the sea as the 10 scattered tribes of Israel(rome), and the beast of the earth as the 2 southern tribes(Jerusalem), and see the beast of the sea utterly attacking and making desolate the "great holy city"(spiritual babylon/Jerusalem), you will have no problem seeing what revealtion is.
     Other than that, I guess I won't waste my time on it anymore and let the endtime prophecy books and movies interpret it for everyone else.
     We all still belong to Christ and the family of God, so I am very strong in my conviction and belief  in both.

Jeremiah 3:8 "Then I saw that for all the causes for which backsliding Israel [10 northern scattered tribes] had committed adultery, I had put Her away and given Her a certificate of divorce; yet her Treacherous Sister Judah[2 southern tribes] did not fear, but went and played the Harlot also.Ezek 37:22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

I have not misquoted you. You only thing you see something, though it is not reality.


I didn't admit a mistake since I am not aware of a mistake I have made nor have you shown any. So why would I be covering up since there is nothing to cover up? You are on a trip of fantasy to be sure, your own vanity. Let it go.


I actually find your grammar to be atrocious. You can't keep declaring people wrong and then having yourself no explanation. These things I have shared with you are very precise language of God in His Word which you can not blithe over so aggregiously and think you can escape them by making a declaration and then leaving it at that. Now that is the essence of vanity.

You keep asking for the proof and I keep giving it back to you. You keep shoving it away, and I keep passing back onto your lap.

The language used in Rev. 7.1-8 is so different than that of Rev. 14.1-5 in so many aways that it is undeniable they are not the same group despite this delusion of yours even for decades. You need to study instead of getting so excited. Spend some patient time with these two links I have given you.

The sum of your statement is "wrong...again"! What wrong? You never said. Do you see how you are being selfish in your own little world. When you speak you should provide and explanation for that is a courteous and righteous thing to do.
The people told about in 7.3 are called “the servants of our God”, but those in view in 14.1 are the children of God (this conclusion is deduced from the name of the Father). You need to read deeply and not be so shallow. You stop so short of the glory of God in your reading I am not sure you will ever understand. Do you see how you are wrong again?

Don't legalize the word seal. That is your problem. It has blinded you to what is self-evident on so many points. By being a legalists you become yourself nonsensical accusing clear reasoning. The people of 7.4 are the chosen among the children of Israel, while those of 14.1 are purchased from among men.            The seals received by them are not the same. The one spoken of in 7.2 is “the seal of the living God”, which is Old Testament terminology. The seal alluded to in 14.1 bears the name of the Lamb and the name of the Father, and such names are related to the church. Hence these people must come from the church.   The people spoken of in 14.1ff. are associated with the Lamb (standing with the Lamb, having the name of the Lamb, following the Lamb, and being the first fruits unto the Lamb). In chapter 7 the Lord is seen as another angel; and this, as we have seen, is a returning to His Old Testament position.
The articles preceding both of the 144,000 numbers cited in 14.1 and 7.4 are indefinite, and are therefore general and not specific. Thus these 144,000 numbers constitute two different classes.

There is no indication they have come to Christ during the Tribulation Hour. It is best you do not overassume this for you will not find anywhere in the Scriptures your claim. Rather, the 144,000 are the preserved promise of a remnant nation of Israel's 12 tribes. God keeps His promise and will protect this small group. Yes Israel will be a testimony to God through the Tribulation, but in preaching Jesus Christ but as a testimony to the world of God. See "witness" in Matt. 24.14. These shall be a witness to the whole world, not to preach God but their being a central pivotal point in the world's affairs nearing the end of this age. This is their witness. They are not preaching the Bible, Jesus or such. This 144,000 in Rev. 7.1-8 escapes into the wilderness and protected, as Rev. 12 says she is the woman, which now beomes Israel, flees. (Rev. 12.6). The woman, the eternal will of God, first delivers the overcomers in Christ (man-child) then she becomes Israel fleeing into the wilderness protected for a times, time and half. The negative consequence of your believe is to take away the reward of the kingdom to overcomers called out of the church such as those few mentioned out of the 7 churches in Rev. 2 and 3. You remain fleshly and carnal by denying this.



 
The 12 tribes of Israel and a remnant thereof are still on earth, but this is mount zion on in heaven.14.1        Is Mount Zion in heaven or on earth? It is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one, because (1) the Mount Zion on earth is at that time in the hands of the Gentiles (11.2); (2) it is clearly stated in 14.4 that “these were purchased from among men”, thus implying that they no longer stand on the earthly Mount Zion during that moment (3) by joining the last two clauses of 14.4 with Exodus 23.19 we learn that the first fruits are not left in the field since as soon as they are ripened they are to be brought to the house of God (see also Ex. 34.26), and since the 144,000 are the first fruits they cannot be left in the field-which speaks of the world (Matt. 13.38)-but are placed instead on the Mount Zion in heaven which is the New Jerusalem; (4) 14.3 says “they sing . . . before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the el-ders”-thus all these are in heaven and not on the earth; (5) the people referred to in 14.1-5 are the first fruits while those alluded to in 14.14-16 are the harvest, so if the harvesting is unto the air, can the first fruits be gathered elsewhere except to heaven? and (6) there is, moreover, no reason to suggest it as being the Mount Zion on earth since the Lord Jesus will come to the earth only by the time of chapter 19.

You are isolating yourself like a legalists taking something that you think is obvious not seeing the differences in these two groups even after you are told what they are. It is as if your spirit is dead and can't understand anyway. They can't be in heaven while they are being chased on earth. It is because those in mount zion in heaven are not being chased, but in fact they are the chasers. They are the ones chasing Satan out of heaven, while the Jewish remnant is hiding and protected in the wilderness of the world.


Every post you have posted is locked in legalism like a pharaisee. Your main focus is the number 144,000 that therefore they must the same and that they are sealed and that they must the same. But given the rest of what is said we can not say they are same for clearly these are two different classes of 144,000 and there has been no less than 16 reasons given why they are not the same. But you do not hath an ear to hear. To be sealed is to be done in secret for that is what the 7 seals being broken means over the mystery age of the church the past 2000 years. Also 144,000 are two classes, two very special groups, one as virgins in Christ and the other that bewails virginity for that is the characteristic of the OT ways. We are very thankful for such a comparison. The people in view in 14.4 are virgins, but with Israel virginity is to be bewailed. (According to Ex. 23.26, Deut. 7.14, 1 Sam. 2.5, and Ps. 113.9, to bear children is considered a blessing while to be barren is deemed a curse. In Judges 11.38,39 the daughter of Jephthah is said to have bewailed her virginity for two months.) It is highly recommended you study deeply what is being taught to you because for now all I see is a dead spirit locked in his ways.

You have several Bibles and you treat them all like crap. For a man who hath not an ear and shuts is mind down like you do is a sure sign of deep deception and mental deprivation because you have smothered your spirit. You are so inflexible you can't see I have been mentioning these 16 points with all along on that site of mine. It is hard to get out of your ways but that is what you need to do.



Your wishful thinking is just wishful fantasy. Don't read just want you want to see, for did I not say "those in Rev. 14.1-5 are not those in Rev. 7.1-8". It is impossible guaranteed. Guaranteed of what? That they are not the same. Don't read selfishly or to argue for you make yourself look foolish, and not for Christ.

Is there any spiritual Christians here?

1. OSAS Arminian
2. partial rapture
3. proper Biblical locality
4. man is triparite
5. coming millennial reign of Christ in Person and reward for His overcomers.
6. church is not christendom
7. new city is a literal city
8. new earth is without a sea

Partial Rapture?! :D
What is that?
Being taken up to meet to Jesus in the clouds and half-way there..Whoops! Sorry. Wrong person.  You stay here. Down you go!   ;D

I know I should read into it first but I don't care to right now.  It just struck me as a little out there.

If it looks like a false doctrine, acts likes a false doctrine, and walks like a false doctrine...it's a false doctrine.
Just like 100% of this guys other doctrine. (he likes useing percentages too!)

 Save yourself the trouble with this guy, and don't even bother with him or his goofy web site.

Oklahoma Howdy to Bronzesnake,

My computer has been AWOL and primarily crashed for the last several days, so I am just now getting to read this thread. I'm sorry for the delay. This is inside-out, backward junk that doesn't resemble the Bible at all. It also appears that he has called all of you names, including Satan, for not buying this junk. All I can say is "WHEW!!!!".  Can we recommend a good Sunday School as a good start over point for this guy?

Love In Christ,
Tom

 Amen and hallelujah my brother!

No that is not what partial rapture means. That is a mistaken assumption. It means that at first rapture those who are ready to be received to the throne will be received if they keep the Word of His patience (obviously not all Christians do this, so they will be without rewards reigning in the millennium), ie, Rev. 7.9. Rev. 12.5, 14.1, Matt. 24.37,40-41 (taken), Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10, for being ready. The rest are left to be received at the 7th trumpet resurrection (1 Thess. 4.15-17, Rev. 11.15, 1 Cor. 15.50-52 and the "left" in Matt. 24.37,40-41) -  pretty simple. Not eveyone wants this so God will deal with them accordingly. It denounces all the common widepath views today. And these are the findings,

1. historicalists (amill., post-mill., preterisms) blunt the solemn warning at the end of this age so they think they won't know the wrath of God, and they have no faith Christ will return to reign in Person for 1000 yearsand reward His overcomers (note, not all Christians are like those of the 5 wise virgins).

2. pretrib and midtribber onlyists are overassumers and when they go through the Tribulation they won't realize it and take the mark of the beast for their fantasy.

3. posttribber and prewrather onlyists are hardening their spirit waiting for the Antichrist who must proceed Christ, taking away the hope of the church hardening their hearts for with the hope of Christ is an escaping the Hour of trial based on readiness to be received to the throne (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36).

christinme...


That's not true, you are wrong... again! ;D

 I have stated before that you are 100% wrong!
See, I love math and stats! :D

 You were warned already by the moderator about your foolishness cim, so I suggest you read the following verse, and draw the comparison to your own situation...

the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 Hey, if you must distort God's word you can always build your own forum on that bogus web site of yours...of course, it will be very lonely with just yourself to debate with. ;D

 Bye.

 Oh the irony!  ;D

Enjoy your last parting half witted shots my friend, for the end is at hand! ;)

Even if you can't post here anymore, you can still come here and read. I suggest you do that, you may learn some truth my oft' wrong friend.  :D

christinme, read the following...

 I would quote part of your post, but that might lend it some credibility. A person's views about the Tribulation Period has absolutely nothing to do with Salvation. I thought that I had seen bogus baloney before, but this material is far beyond bogus baloney.

If you are trying to sell a book, sales to Christians will be non-existent. I think that it's fine to discuss end time events, specifically because it's another reason to study the Holy Bible. However, it is not fine to say that people are lost if they have certain views about the end times. If a person has accepted the perfect GIFT of Jesus Christ on the cross and has HIM as their personal Lord and Saviour, they are saved, regardless of what they may believe about the Tribulation Period.

"If this is your book, toss it and start over. Even a babe in Christ would see it as BOGUS BALONEY!  The Holy Bible clearly states the plan of Salvation in the Gospel of God's Grace. I certainly would not want the lost to hear or read what you require to be Saved. Of course, what you require to be Saved is of no interest. What God requires for Salvation is of interest, and it does not resemble your book or whatever it is you are trying to sell. Your link has been removed. Do not put it back on Christians Unite."

Moderator

 See my oft' wrong friend, I'm not alone in knowing you are full of baloney! ;D I wonder why you refrain from calling the moderator a "false accuser?" hmmmm. ;D

Bronzesnake

This thread is locked for ADMIN's review. Several additional posts of name calling have been removed.

Moderator