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as we all already know the first sin are committed by lucifer on the kingdom of Heaven. Do you think it's possible that someday in the eternity( if we all already been gathered in Heaven) the sin may occur again?

No. Salvation in essence means DELIVERANCE. We are delivered from the power of sin now, and in the future we will be delivered even from its very presence.

We will be saved into full conformity to Christ Himself. (Rom 8:29; 1 Peter 1:5; 1 John 3:2)

aw

I do not believe we will be able to sin in Heaven.

Interesting... so does that mean that free will shall have ceased to exist?

Or does that mean that no one will WANT to sin?

Or will sin cease to exist?

Hmm...

God Bless,

-Samson

Good questions.
I don't have the answers.
Maybe when we meet up in Heaven we can discuss it over a good cuppicino.  

In paradise, the FREE WILL problem will be forever settled. We will have it b that is why He had to die. However, His owrk in the NEW CREATION is so perfect that when we are brought into true conformity to Christ we will not have any desire whatsoever to sin. It ain't a gona happen ever again.

aw

same as samson, does it means that in heaven we won't have free will anymore? i mean a long-long time ago in eternity the sin can exist through lucifer (who are perfect, even become GOD's no.1 angel) why it's impossible for sin to occur again? I don't mean to make any controversy. i myself believe that only by GOD's grace we can be saved. i believe by HIS incredible work through HOLY SPIRIT i can be made more perfect day each day, until we all as HIS children will be gathered in Heaven with HIM. i just wanted to know how to give some explanation, if somebody(outside christianity) ask the same question. it's all about apologetics.

Me,

The theology for the explanation goes like this.

In God's great wisdom, knowing that Adam would fall, allowed Satan to pronounce Death on Adam.  That is physical death. This would separate the body from the soul for eternity.

This is why God had to remove Adam and Eve from the Garden because if they then ate of the Tree of Life, sin and the separation would be eternal.  So death was a blessing for man and his removal from the Garden.

Thus it made it possible for Christ to take on our human nature and defeat Satan by overcoming Death, and making it possible for all men to live eternally. That is body and soul. The resurrection and salvation is for all men. Now, whether you experience this in heaven or hell is up to you.  Physical death ends sin once and for all.  

thank you sojourner for your explanation. but i don't agree the quote "The resurrection and salvation is for all men" i believe that only chosen people of GOD will get salvation. i know that this things will remain unanswered till we all enter to Heaven. So let's focus our attention not on our disagree but to the things that we all have faith on it, that is we worship Jesus Christ as our Saviour and Lord. love in Christ.

I am not strong in end times prophecy or the book of Revelation. However, won't satan be destroyed in the end?

Satan is the ruler of the world. When we die, he will have no power over us. All that will be left is the spirit. In my opinion, that is the difference between heaven on earth and heaven after death. We will no longer have to struggle with sin after death because sin IS worldly attachments!

Me,

You are confusing what Christ accomplished and the response of man.  
Texts for the resurrection: Acts 24:15, I Cor 15:20-22.
Texts for salvation: Rom 5:18, John 12:32, Col 1:20, II Cor 5:19

What Jesus meant in John, 12:32, is that He will not appear to the Jews exclusively but to all men regardless of their race, ethnic background, etc. He also said that "Few will enter the kingdom of heaven", and "No one can come to me unless my Father draws him." He also says in John, 17:6, "I have revealed myself to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours: you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." He also says in John, 17: 9, I am not praying for the world but for those you have given me for they are yours."  He also says in John 14: 23, after Judas (not judas iscariot) asked Him; "But Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus replied; "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." I believe Him. He also says in Matthew, 13, "This is why I speak to them in parables; 'Though seeing they do not see, though hearing, they do not understand." There are many other verses throughout the gospel that clearly state that not all will be saved. You can't just take one phrase without knowing ALL of His words. Otherwise, you will only hear what itching ears want to hear. Jesus does NOT contradict Himself! John 12:32, simply means that salvation will affect people in ALL races, not just the Jews.

Just to throw my 2 cents worth in, I believe that salvation is available to all men; from acceptance of Christ and repentance of sin. Christ quite often uses "all" and "the world"....

Joh 12:32  And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
Joh 12:33  But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

All men simply means "all" men, not all nations.

Later in John appears this:

Joh 12:44  But Jesus cried out and said, He who believes on Me does not believe on Me but on Him who sent Me.
Joh 12:45  And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
Joh 12:46  I have come as a Light into the world, so that whoever believes on Me should not remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47  And if any one hears My Words and does not believe, I do not judge him, for I do not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

Proclaiming the fact that he comes to save the world...not just men of different nations.

Could I ask, whom do you believe to be "the chosen"? (if it's posted somewhere I think I missed it - not unusual for me).


Yes, according to revelation. Interesting book, that Revelation. Could study it for years and still miss stuff. I peeked at the ending, though....loved it!   ;D

In Revelation it also uses the term "nations", but one must understand that Revelation is a book of what is (at the time of it's writing); and what is to come (prophecy). Revelation is written in both "symbolic" and "literal" terms, and one must spend a lot of time with it (I haven't spent nearly enough) to understand it.

Rev 21:24  And the nations of those who are saved will walk in the light of it; and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.
Rev 21:25  And its gates may not be shut at all by day, for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26  And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.


Gracey

All of the above. To be "conformed to the image of His Son" means to have our wills perfectly conformed to God's will, just as Jesus of Nazareth's will was always, and in all things, to do the will of God, not under compulson but because of His infinite love for God the Father. So "free will" will become "God's will" because man was originally created to be in "the image and likeness of God" and will love God perfectly (which will be the perfect fulfillment of the greatest commandment).

Satan will be confined to the Lake of Fire eternally. Since it is in "outer darkness", Satan will be separated for ever from God's new heavens and new earth by an infinite distance,as well as through eternal confinement in a place of eternal torment. Read the last three chapters of Revelation.

Heidi,

What you say here in this quote:

In quoting me and answering with your phrase I understood that you are not understanding. Salvation and saved are two different things.

The work of Christ, the objective work is complete and is available to all men. If any is human, they are included. That does not mean all will be saved.  That is why I stated that you are confusing the work of Christ and man's response. How you answer that call will either result in heaven or hell.

This quote:It is not a matter of appearing.  Christ died for all men. Christ redeemed the world and every human being in it from beginning to end. Salvation is for ALL.
The few who will enter, is related not to Christ's finished work but to man's response of that FREE gift. In other words, what will you do with it?

Thank you Heidi for your explanation. if Jesus Christ had died for the sin of the world, then why does HE still needs our willing to receive HIM as our Saviour? if it's right then HIS death will be a half success and half failure, because only people who willing to receive Jesus Christ as HIS Saviour will be saved. So it goes this way, Jesus Christ had died for your sin( it makes you clean), but you don't wanna receive HIM as your Saviour, so you remain unsaved. Aren't this a vanity? Sorry if my word are little rude. If Jesus Christ had died only for HIS chosen people, than HIS death is 100 % success,because HE will draw all HIS chosen people (by HOLY SPIRIT calls) to receive HIM in faith as their GOD and Saviour.
GOD loves you all.

How can you talk about only the "chosen" people and then end the post with "God loves you all."?
That sounds like a contradiction.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Co 15:56  The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
1Co 15:57  But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58  Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

1Co 15:26  The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

If Jesus Christ had died for the sin of the world, then why does HE still needs our willing to receive HIM as our Saviour?

Because Jesus said so, and His gift of salvation is for WHOSOEVER WILL.

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Yes, God will not lose any that come through Jesus to Him.

Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Joh 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Because Jesus died for the sins of all mankind does not mean that all men will respond to the call of the Holy Spirit. Not all that are called are chosen, but as many as want to taste the free gift, He bids them to come and sojourn with His people.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Ony God stands outside of time and sees those that will come to Him and has the power and right to speak of His chosen. We do not have this power to see begining to end, but He is well able to speak of His elect and know who they are even when they were in their mother's womb.

Psalms 22:10  I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly.

sorry if i made some misunderstanding justme. what i mean with "GOD loves you all" are refer to you and all fellow friends in Jesus Christ, whom i believe are the "chosen people" of GOD. HIS love for us (HIS children) are exclusive and private. Yes, HE also love all people in the world (this time i mean alllllll the people that includes the people outside christianity) but, it's better that we call it generosity. GOD gives rain to everybody in the world, doesnt matter if you are some saints or the most crooked man in the world. But, the gift of salvation are only to a few people. please correct me, if i have any thought that against the Bible. and by the way, i fell that  our discussions has change from sin to predestination.GBU

I guess I don't understand ?? When speaking of the chosen, it indirectly speaks of predestination, but I don't believe that the gift of salvation is closed off to any man because God knows the chosen by His omniscience. Each person remains responsible for the life and choices they make.
God bless....

HIS love for us (HIS children) are exclusive and private. Yes, HE also love all people in the world (this time i mean alllllll the people that includes the people outside christianity) but, it's better that we call it generosity. But, the gift of salvation are only to a few people. please correct me, if i have any thought that against the Bible.

WRONG WRONG WRONG!  

Joh 3:16  For GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

It is better we not try to change the Word as it is written.

The answer is found in Gen. 1:26,27. God created men and angels as free moral agents, and His purpose was to see these creatures come to love Him and trust Him without compulsion or coercion.  Therefore each and every sinner must RESPOND to the Gospel -- must believe, repent, and receive Christ as Lord and Saviour. God has done everthing for our eternal redemption.  We must believe that this is so, and respond as though our eternal well-being depended on it [which it does].


God does not think as man does, and success and failure are not in His vocabulary. God will be eternally glorified for His plan of salvation, and there will be countless millions of the redeemed. But none will be there against his will, and none will be there through coercion or complusion.


That will be true for many: "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not... And this is the condemnation that light is come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil" (Jn. 1:11; 3:19).


Fortunately, the Scriptures do not teach that He died only for His chosen people: "Behold the Lamb of God, that TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD" (Jn. 1:29,36).  Christ died for all humanity, and took upon Himself the sins of the whole world (1 Jn. 2:2). It is only Calvinists who try to limit God's grace and the atoning work of Christ. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Shylynne,
I explained in this thread or another thread about the free will issue. It was a long explanation and i don't want to re-write. The upshot of it is; "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." "You did not choose me, I chose you." "We are slaves to whatever masters us." "Yet i tell you not one of them (sparrows) falls to the ground without the will of my Father." "God hardens whom He wants to harden and has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy." Now you tell me, who is that Master of the universe? God or us?

hmmm... Heidi, but I think we are saying  the same thing... if your referring to your earlier post on this thread...i`m not sure why you addressed me lol...*gulps more coffee*

God hardens the heart already proud and set against Him and uses that evil to bring about good for those that love Him. God knows the wicked from their birth and can use them to bring about His glory and will. All things work together for good, to those that love God and are the called, according to His purpose. Romans 8:28

Yes, God is master and we are not. He is love and perfect in His justice and mercy.

Psalms 58:3  The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

You know, I'm really glad you said that, Raphu. My husband and I talk about that a lot...when we are chosen. He said somethint about being knitted in the womb. Do you know that passage? I can't find it.

To all my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, first of all i would like to apologize,if the word or parable that i use on my latest posting are confusing and really unacceptable. I hope you all will forgive me for the wrong thing i have done.

"Each person remains responsible for the life and choices they make."

I really agree with the quote from Raphu.

For Heidi, the verses are(if i'm not wrong) Psalm 139 : 13
"for Thou hast possessed my reins: Thou hast covered me in my mother's womb."

I will give a few verses about predestination, please judge it by yourself.
Romans 9 : 10-13
" And not only this;but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth;) it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have Iloved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 9 : 15
" I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion"

Romans 9 : 18
" Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will he hardeneth"

Romans 9 : 20-24
" Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, even us,whom He hath called..."
     
I Peter 2 :8
" And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient:whereunto also they were appointed"
GBU allways.

Maybe this one:

Jer 1:5  Before I formed you in the belly I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I consecrated you, and I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

There is the only thing I don't like about man holding God's power of election in their imagination. I understand election as far as I think a man should understand it - with utter humility. It can be used as Job's friends as an eliteist way of judging others as non-elect or as sinners if one is not careful, and then a person is not believing all things in love, as 1 Corinthians 13 tells us to do - giving the benefit of the doubt to others, thinking what is possibly the best about them with mercy until they are proven and known wrong.

Beyond lives lived perfectly before God, there are those who make the mistakes and have to go to the Lord for the grace of forgiveness after making a total mess of their lives. People who are proud of God's provision may be eventually humbled because pride goes before a fall, even if it is pride in God's provision - like the Pharisees pride. We are to walk humbly, love mercy and do justly before the Lord. Even David complained of how the wicked prospered all the rime and worn their pride like a neckless while he got caught and paid a price in correction for every sin he did. So just because one looks prosperous does not reveal anything about them spiritually to man.

Psalms 73:2 But as for me, I came so close to the edge of the cliff! My feet were slipping, and I was almost gone.
3 For I envied the proud when I saw them prosper despite their wickedness.
4 They seem to live such a painless life; their bodies are so healthy and strong.
5 They aren't troubled like other people or plagued with problems like everyone else.
6 They wear pride like a jeweled necklace, and their clothing is woven of cruelty.
7 These fat cats have everything their hearts could ever wish for!
8 They scoff and speak only evil; in their pride they seek to crush others.
9 They boast against the very heavens, and their words strut throughout the earth.
10 And so the people are dismayed and confused, drinking in all their words.

I think election in man's imagination can easily detract from a person's humility and because a life is smooth or harsh in another person's life can only be interpreted by God, as Jobs life tells us. The most wise men were all wrong about Job except for the youngest fellow, Elihu, who upheld God's sovereignty in the correct manner - speaking of God's awsome power as Ruler and Creator, hunbly, instead of accusing Job of sins.

Micah 6:8  He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
 God bless...

Your last several posts are what I have always believed. I do not believe in free will but instead, that we are chosen by God. I have encountered many atheists who do not WANT heaven and have told me they are proud of that fact. My explanation of this is that since they do not know what they're missing, they might not suffer like we Christians would who have received the Holy Spirit for we already know His glory. Hell would indeed be life without God's spirit forvever. The wicked and the proud have already received their reward in full. Otherwise, why would God punish the people He didn't choose with eternal torture?

Thanks, Gracey. That's the one I was looking for. I always wonder why he put me in my particular mother's womb. This is sooooo interesting to me.

Interesting, to say the least.

Heidi, you don't believe in free will. I'm curious as to the extent of that belief; does that mean that even your "unbelief" in free will is not your choice? Are any decisions, thoughts, etc. really yours?

It would seem to me that we either have free will or we don't. That would mean that my decision to write these words, think these thoughts, make the decision to go get coffee after I complete these lines, etc. are either mine or they are not.

Or are we saying that the decision to choose Him is the only decision where free will does not come into play?

God Bless,

-Samson

Hi Smartinez,
I just explained that in the thread; "Why does God punish those he did not Choose?" You might want to check it out.

we have free will. But, our free will are limited in GOD's absolute decision and plan. It's really a difficult, yet interesting topics to be talked about.GBU

God is either in control or He isn't. We can't have it both ways. That's why God allows us the freedom of action while we, all the while, think we are acting freely. Again, the analogy of a parent/child relationship illustrates this. We had a good question in bible study this week. God said he would raise up a foolish shepherd who would turn out to be the anti-christ. The questions was; "Will all the men who believe the anti-christ think they are acting freely, or will they know it was God's will?" What do you think the answer to that question is?

Will the Anti-Christ be acting freely?

No. God is in control of the universe. Otherwise, Revelations couldn't have been written. Zechariah, 13:16-17, "For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs."

I was watching a show on the Nazi's tonight. They are as unaware of why they hate the Jews as we are that God is watching over us and dictates our every move. Proverbs, 16:9, "For in his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps."  All the Nazi's know is that they hate the Jews. There is no reason for this except that it was prophesied by Jesus prophesied in Matthew, 23:35, "And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar." It was also prophesied in the OT. Nobody has the power to change God's will.