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If the written word is more important than the Church, then why did Christ establish a Church to "go and teach all nations?"  Where in the Bible did Jesus, or anyone, say to write down His teachings?

Jesus never wrote anything, aside from some scribbles in the dust that were not preserved.  We don’t have any idea what he wrote in the dust at the attempted execution of Mary Magdalene at the hands of sinners with stones.  Not once did Jesus ever tell anyone to write down His teachings and form the Bible.  What He did tell them was to go and teach people through the spoken word, which would be empowered by the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.  "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."  - Matthew 28:18-20

It is evident from Paul’s writings that he listened to the teachings of Jesus from the other apostles and pasted them on to his disciples.  Thus the word of mouth was an essential mechanism for passing on the Word of God.  

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us. - 2 Thessalonians 2:15

But here is the key.  The word of mouth teachings and the traditions passed on to the believers must come from those with authority, not just from anyone who decided to take the task upon them.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:  Without the authority to teach, the teachers among men are the ones passing on the actual “traditions of men,” which are contrary to the Bible.   Ideas like “faith alone,” and “scripture alone” are simply not taught in the Gospel.  They cropped up 1500 years after the Gospel was preached via the private interpretations of men.

The Church is often accused of having “traditions of men” but the accusers often miss this essential point:

'The Church' ....? Do you mean the Body of Christ? Or do you mean the Catholic church?

Yes.

ROFL! But I've never heard of the Body of Christ being accused of it nearly as often as the Catholic church.... ;)

Are you going to attempt to answer the question or not? ;)

Bad mistake - giving them biblical authority for "cut 'n' paste"ing.   ;)

How can anyone attempt to answer a question when the question is unclear?  ;) When has the Body of Christ (as opposed to the Catholic church) been accused of having 'traditions of men'?? ;)

Exd 17:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this [for] a memorial in a book, and rehearse [it] in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

Deu 17:18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites:

Isa 30:8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:

Jer 36:28 Take thee again another roll, and write in it all the former words that were in the first roll, which Jehoiakim the king of Judah hath burned.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and [for] all the house of Israel his companions:

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write [it] in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Hab 2:2 And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make [it] plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it

Phl 3:1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed [is] not grievous, but for you [it is] safe.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

That was clever.

But his point is still relevant.  Christ never said to write his TEACHINGS down.

Yes, He did. Rev. 1:11 is Christ talking.

Yes, but He's not telling John to write all of his teachings.

Nickolai said:


Jhn 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jhn 1:1   In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:14   And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Quibble all you want, but wherever in history God spoke to man, it was Jesus speaking also...the Word.

Whenever God said "write it down", then He was giving instruction to record what He said

To maintain that the "point is still relevant....Christ never said..." is ridiculous in the extreme. Just like maintaining that there is no trinity since the specific word is not recorded in the Scripture.

I suppose that you will maintain that the letters to the 7 churches were not "teachings", but only letters, maybe instructions.....and of course, by your last post, certainly not "all" of His teachings.

What are you trying to do? Eliminate the gospels? Declare that they have no value? Or just eliminate the parts that might be in conflict with Orthodox "tradition"?

Get real.

You haven't been listening then. While most "christians" are busy trying to blast the catholics they never realize how damning their own arguments are to themselves (if they would only apply it thatway). go to an atheist  board sometime, and you will find that your arguments against catholicism are the same arguments they use against you. Anyway the very fact that you believe the bible, something penned by men, is enough to show that the accusation holds true, there is nothing that you or any other christian believes that is not understood traditionally. Your bible, your theology, your form of worship, have all been adopted from the teachings of men.

mike

Why would I try to eliminate the Gospels when the Orthodox Church created them?  and peiced together the Bible.  Do you think your interpretation of scripture is better than the Church who created it?  You are a fallible human the Church is the Body of Christ.  Don't dare put yourself on the same level of understanding as Christ.

And have you read your post?  Half of the verses talk about word.  Since when has word meant Written.  When I speak am I not speaking words?

And those letters were to help a Church in a specific area (Who already had understandings of the Gospels that we have today without having to read them *Hint Hint*).  Look at the letters was one ever written just because or did they have a purpose.  John's 3 for example.  They end with John telling the reader that he will come and teach them in person.  He would rather not do it in letter.  

Original question from Christopher:

Nickilai, I get the impression you're just trying to pick a fight over "traditions" versus "sola scriptura". If you would please note the original question again, especially the bold part, you'll notice that the scriptures posted made specific reference to the fact that on many occasions God said specifically..."write it down".


There certainly could be much contention as to the Orthodox Church "creating" the Gospels. Of course, I'm sure that you maintain that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all Orthodox, and like the RCC, claim that your "true" church extends back to the very first believer. OK...whatever.  Pieced together the Bible? Hmmmm. Let's see...the entirety of the OT was canon some 200 years before Orthodoxy even came into existence, and the first general collection of  NT scriptures was not until about 250-275, even though all of the "letters" were being read by the churches prior to then.


Ahhh, could you point out to me where I stated that? Have I declared myself infallible? Or claimed the same level of understanding as Jesus?

2Pe 1:21   For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. (and it was recorded....).




Yes...I read it. Did you?

 
*Hint Hint* Yes, and the specific helps were recorded in writing, sent to them, and then read. They were also preserved so that we, many years later, could read them and have a glimmering of understanding about what was going on then, and continues to this day.



Of course letters are written for a purpose...at least the ones collected as canon. So what? Does that mean that what he will say in person is substantially different from what he has said in writing? Do you think John the Elder would be so unstable (doubleminded) as to tell them something that was not in agreement with what was recorded? I think not.

Again....a straightforward question was asked, and a reply was given using only scripture, as was specified. What is the problem with that?

Yes, Christ did indeed command His apostles, through the Holy Spirit, that His life and His words be written down as Scripture (Jn. 14:16,17,26;15:26,27).  The instructions given to the apostle John may be legitmately applied to all the NT Scriptures: "WRITE THE THINGS WHICH THOU HAST SEEN, AND THE THINGS WHICH ARE, AND THE THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER" (Rev. 1:19).

First Christ opened the understanding of the apostles to what was already written in the Old Testament (Lk. 24:44,45) and showed that it had been fulfilled by Him. The OT then became the foundation of the Gospel preaching of all the apostles. Then, after Christ's ascension,  the Holy Spirit inspired the apostles and evangelists to write down everything they were supposed to, no more and no less, as in Rev. 1:19:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciplies, which are not written in this book: BUT THESE ARE WRITTEN, THAT YE MIGHT BELIEVE that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life through His name... Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith... We have also A MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY, whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place... And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; EVEN AS OUR BELOVED BROTHER PAUL ALSO ACCORDING TO THE WISDOM GIVEN UNTO HIM HATH WRITTEN IN ALL HIS EPISTLES, in which are some things hard to be understood... For we WRITE NONE OTHER THINGS unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even unto the end... For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK... And if any man shall take away from thev words of the BOOK OF THIS PROPHECY (Jn. 20:30,31; 2 Pet. 1:1,19; 3:15,16; 2 Cor. 1:13; Rev. 22:18,19).

The word "SCRIPTURE" is literally "WRITING" or "DOCUMENT" [Greek graphe, from which we get the English graphologist]. This is the only Greek word used throughout the NT. However, it is more than simply "writing".  It is "Holy Writ", "the oracles of God", "the revelation of God" . Hence Paul says in 2 Tim. 3:16: PASA GRAPHE THEOPNEUSTOS which means "All Scripture is God-breathed", it comes from the breath of God, or the mouth of God. This is what sets Scripture apart from human writings and the Apocrypha.

As Augustine -- St. Augustine to the Catholics -- himself was told by God the Holy Spirit "Tolle, Lege", "Tolle, Lege" -- "Take up and read". "Take up and read".  Take up and read what?  Why, of course, the WRITTEN  Word of God.

And what did Augustine have to say about the Scriptures?  "Whatsover is in the Scriptures, believe me, saith the same S. Augustine, is high and divine, there is verily truth, and a doctrine most fit for the renewing and refreshing of men's minds, and truly so tempered that every one may draw from them that which is sufficient for him, if he come to draw with a devout and pious mind, as true Religion requireth."

Even though you may not believe Christ instructed His teachings to be written down. Why do you suppose GOD went through all that trouble to skilfully design HIS Word in such a way that proves that it WAS HIS intention that it be written and it WAS written with HIS blessing and by HIM through men?
Please read the following. It is lengthy but well worth reading. It will change the way you perceive the Bible.


Evidence of Design:
Beloved Numerologist
by Chuck Missler

http://www.khouse.org/articles/technical/19950201-102.html


The numerical structure of the Bible has been studied closely, being the subject of numerous volumes in the past.1 But none are more provocative than the works of Dr. Ivan Panin.2
Ivan Panin was born in Russia on December 12, 1855. Having participated in plots against the Czar at an early age, he was exiled and, after spending some years studying in Germany, he came to the United States and entered Harvard University. After graduation in 1882, he converted from agnosticism to Christianity.

In 1890 he discovered some of the phenomenal mathematical designs underlying both the Greek text of the New Testament and the Hebrew text of the Old Testament.

He was to devote over 50 years of his life painstakingly exploring the numerical structure of the Scriptures, generating over 43,000 detailed, hand-penned pages of analysis (and exhausting his health in the process). He went on to be with the Lord in his 87th year, on October 30, 1942.

The Heptadic Structure
The recurrence of the number seven - or an exact multiple of seven - is found throughout the Bible and is widely recognized. The Sabbath on the seventh day; the seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine in Egypt; the seven priests and seven trumpets marching around Jericho; the Sabbath Year of the land are well-known examples.
Also, Solomon's building the Temple for seven years, Naaman's washing in the river seven times, and the seven churches, seven lamp stands, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven bowls, seven stars, and so on in the Book of Revelation, all show the consistent use of the number seven.
But there turns out to be much more below the surface. Ivan Panin noted the amazing numerical properties of the Biblical texts - both the Greek of the New Testament and the Hebrew of the Old Testament. These are not only intriguing to discover, they also demonstrate an intricacy of design which testifies to a supernatural origin!

Vocabulary
One of the simplest - and most provocative - aspects of the Biblical text is the vocabulary used. The number of vocabulary words in a passage is normally different from the total number of words in a passage. Some words are repeated. It is easy, for example, to use a vocabulary of 500 words to write an essay of 4,000 words.

An Example
The first 17 verses of the Gospel of Matthew are a logical unit, or section, which deals with a single principal subject: the genealogy of Christ. It contains 72 Greek vocabulary words in these initial 17 verses. (The verse divisions are man's allocations for convenience, added in the 13th century.)

The number of words which are nouns is exactly 56, or 7 x 8.

The Greek word "the" occurs most frequently in the passage: exactly 56 times, or 7 x 8. Also, the number of different forms in which the article "the" occurs is exactly 7.

There are two main sections in the passage: verse 1-11, and 12-17. In the first main section, the number of Greek vocabulary words used is 49, or 7 x 7.
Why not 48, or 50?
Of these 49 words, the number of those beginning with a vowel is 28, or 7 x 4. The number of words beginning with a consonant is 21, or 7 x 3.

The total numbers of letters in these 49 words is 266, or 7 x 38 - exactly! The number of vowels among these 266 letters is 140, or 7 x 20. The number of consonants is 126, or 7 x 18 - exactly.

Of the 49 words, the number of words which occur more than once is 35, or 7 x 5. The number of words occurring only once is 14, or 7 x 2. The number of words which occur in only one form is exactly 42, or 7 x 6. The number of words appearing in more than one form is also 7.

The number of the 49 Greek vocabulary words which are nouns is 42, or 7 x 6. The number of words which are not nouns is 7. Of the nouns, 35 are proper names, or exactly 7 x 5. These 35 names are used 63 times, or 7 x 9. The number of male names is exactly 28, or 7 x 4. These male names occur 56 times or 7 x 8. The number which are not male names is 7.

Three women are mentioned - Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth. The number of Greek letters in these three names is 14, 7 x 2.
The number of compound nouns is 7. The number of Greek letters in these 7 nouns is 49, or 7 x 7.

Only one city is named in this passage, Babylon, which in Greek contains exactly 7 letters.

And on it goes. To get an indication of just how unique these properties are, try the example in the inset.

Gemetria
There are even more features in the numerical structure of the words themselves. As you may know, both Hebrew and Greek uses the letters of the alphabet for numerical values. Therefore, any specific word - in either Hebrew or Greek - has a numerical value of its own by adding up the values of the letters in that particular word. The study of the numerical values of words is called gemetria.
 
The 72 vocabulary words add up to a gametrical value of 42,364, or 7 x 6,052. Exactly. If one Greek letter was changed, this would not happen.

The 72 words appear in 90 forms - some appear in more than one form. The numeric value of the 90 forms is 54,075, or 7 x 7,725. Exactly.

We will defer other examples of gametrical properties of the Biblical text for subsequent articles, but it becomes immediately obvious that hidden below the surface are aspects of design that cannot be accidental or just coincidence. Remember, the rabbis say that "coincidence" is not a kosher word!

Other Implications
There are words in the passage just described that occur nowhere else in the New Testament. They occur 42 times (7 x 6) and have 126 letters (7 x 18). How was this organized?
Even if Matthew contrived this characteristic into his Gospel, how could he have known that these specific words - whose sole characteristic is that they are found nowhere else in the New Testament - were not going to be used by the other writers? Unless we assume the absurd hypothesis that he had an agreement with them, he must have had the rest of the New Testament before him when he wrote his book. The Gospel of Matthew, then, must have been written last.
It so happens, however, that the Gospel of Mark exhibits the same phenomenon. It can be demonstrated that it would have had to be written "last." The same phenomenon is found in Luke. And in John, James, Peter, Jude and Paul. Each would have had to write after the other in order to contrive the vocabulary frequencies! You can demonstrate that each of the New Testament books had to have been "written last."
There is no human explanation for this incredible and precise structure. It has all been supernaturally designed. We simply gasp, sit back, and behold the skillful handiwork of the God who keeps His promises.

And we are indebted to the painstaking examinations and lifetime commitment of Dr. Ivan Panin for uncovering these amazing insights.

Isn't God - and His remarkable Word - fun?

Painstaking, yes.  Amazing - hardly.

You can find this sort of thing in any text if you're willing to put the effort in.   You just need to dream up enough things to count - then on average one seventh of those will be a multiple of seven.

If he'd stuck to "singificant" multiples of seven, such as 49, it might have been very slightly more impressive,

No you can't.
Says who?
Prove it.

 ;)  I'm very suspicious of men who try to claim the authority of God.  Someone please read the Apostle Paul's account of how Paul learned the Gospel.  He says no one but Christ taught it to him.  And the "Catholic Church" as it calls itself today, wasn't there to ordain him or anything.  AND the Body of Christ had ALREADY been established.  Which means that Christ has the power to give authority to preach and teach, which means that Christ doesn't have to wait around for the Pope--contrary to what the Pope wants us to think.

 ;D
Still not bowing the knee to men!  :P :P :P :P :P

(http://www.greektown.net/images/smilies/35.gif)

My second sentence is obviously true.  If you can't see that, then there isn't much hope for you.

The first sentence can be infered from the first.  I can't be bothered to demonstrate it empirically.

You can't be bothered to demonstrate it empirically because you can't.
Period!







Can't argue with GOD! You'll lose every time.

I can't be bothered because it takes time and I don't need to; anyone who's vaguely numerate should be able to see that it's true:

All I have to do is pick a random bit of text, dream up, say, 50 things to count (nouns, verbs, letters, words, occurences of "the", etc) and the chances are I'll have about seven of them that are multiples of seven.  If I've been unlucky and I haven't got quite enough, I just dream up a few more things to count until I have.

Then, hey presto, I tell you about the the ones I found.  Not only do all of them add up to multiples of seven, but I've got seven of them.  Amazing.  And, if I add them all together I get yet another multiple of seven.  Wow.

I don't even have to do the counting - I can get my year 7 numeracy classes to do it for me. Oh hang on, another seven.   My text really must be a message from God.   But hang on, I haven't even chosen it yet.


Unless you're claiming to be God, I'm not.

Let me guess.


You're Catholic?

No, but non-Catholics can engage their brains too.

Romans 10:13.  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 14.  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
 15.  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Preaching the word, hearing the word, believing the word. Still even in the twenty first century the prime method of bringing people to Jesus Christ.

Ollie

Mark 14:3  While he was in Bethany, reclining at the table in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, a woman came with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, made of pure nard. She broke the jar and poured the perfume on his head.
4  Some of those present were saying indignantly to one another, "Why this waste of perfume?
5  It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.
6  "Leave her alone," said Jesus. "Why are you bothering her? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
7  The poor you will always have with you, and you can help them any time you want. But you will not always have me.
8  She did what she could. She poured perfume on my body beforehand to prepare for my burial.
9  I tell you the truth, wherever the gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her."


How can the story of this woman be told throughout the world without it been written down first?

Gal 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we [should go] unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

funny how paul waits to get ordained by the elders before he and barnabas go to the heathen. the right hand of fellowhip is an interesting term... but that is what sets paul apart from any other self proclaimed prophet, he appeals to the authority that christ instituted in his church.

1) the right, the right hand

2) metaph.

a) a place of honour or authority


mike

Did you skip right over Chapter ONE??????????????????????????????????    To get to Chapter to to try to find some tidbit of a part of a conversation in the middle of some phrase that means nothing in order to prove that God has to wait around on the Pope?????  Amazingly, this book was written BECAUSE someone was doing just what the Pope is doing.  It will benefit you to read the whole thing.

The part you're quoting happened 14 FOURTEEN YEARS  fourteen years fourteen years 14 14 14 fourteen years AFTER Paul had been preaching the Gospel AAAAANANANNNDNNNNNDDDDD he's chewing out the Supposed first Pope here.

Galatians 1

1Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead-- 2and all the brothers with me, To the churches in Galatia:
3Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Paul Called by God

11I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
13For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15But when God, who set me apart from birth[1] and called me by his grace, was pleased 16to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
18Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter[2] and stayed with him fifteen days. 19I saw none of the other apostles--only James, the Lord's brother. 20I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. 22I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23They only heard the report: "The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy." 24And they praised God because of me.

Paul Accepted by the Apostles

1Fourteen years   later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. 2I went in response to a revelation and set before them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. But I did this privately to those who seemed to be leaders, for fear that I was running or had run my race in vain. 3Yet not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, even though he was a Greek. 4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
6As for those who seemed to be important--whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance--those men added nothing to my message. 7On the contrary, they saw that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles,[1] just as Peter had been to the Jews.[2] 8For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9James, Peter[3] and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews. 10All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

Paul Opposes Peter

11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[4]




 ;D

 ;D ;D :D ;D ;) :) ;D :D ;) :) 8)

And the kicker is that Paul only consulted with them to make sure THEIR doctrine was correct--he wasn't checking on his own doctrine and he wasn't getting permission or ordination to preach!!

Christ don't have to wait around on no Pope!!!!!


Still not bending the knee to men.   :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Next time you're in some catholic ceremony and you bend your knees to the clery, keep in mind that YOU ARE IN FACT in the VERY ACT of bending the knee to man.  Take note of that. ;D :P  You better believe Satan gets a big kick out of it too.  Not that Christ's death on the cross wont cover it.  But It is for freedom's sake that Christ set us free.  You should not be so excited to stay in bondage. ;) to rules of man.  Especially when the men that make up the rules are letting you kneel to them.  I would be very suspicious if I were you.  Very suspicious.

The question now is:
Christopher. Are you satisfied with these answers to your question?

I can't say I've ever seen anyone "bending their knee" to the clergy.  You don't seem to be very well qualified to talk about Catholic "ceremony".

What an absurdly 20th century question.  The same way everyone had heard it until Mark wrote it down - by word of mouth, of course.

So what is your problem?
What do you believe?
How do you suppose GOD would have wanted HIS word to spread?
How are we to study HIS word?


Are you a believer? Or what?

People who write absurd statements and call them proofs.

That's a bit of an open question for a one line answer.

By every means possible I'd imagine, including but not limited to, writing down that part which we call the Bible.

For a highly literate society, having the bible written down is helpful.  It also helps preserve it uncorrupted over time (which is why people started to write it down in the first place), but it's not absolutely necessary to have it written down.  More to the point, the Bible is not end in itself - Christ is.  It's Christ we should seek to understand, not the Bible, and the Bible is a very important means to that, but not the only one.

Everyone believes something.  Care to be more specific?

Oh, btw, given up on your 'sevens' proof yet?

I'll pray for you

I'm new around here, and everyone will understand just where I stand on everything else later as I've come to this Forum to have people help me pick my brain....but first....

Think for a second...it's all you should need.
God and Jesus, let alone the Holy spirit.
Does anyone picture them outraged or disaproving of the Bible in ALL of it's forms?
God's word is being spread...which if I remember correctly is actually a point made in the bible about the spreading of his word, in whatever form, being a good thing, or something to that degree...(sorry, not big on memorizing verses.)
But then again, if you don't believe that the bible should have been written, then I suppose that part doesn't matter...

Yet, I still have a difficult time comprehending a God who would be upset at someone writing teachings in his honor and form.