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 First of all, please read the verses.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:  


 Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.  


 Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  


 Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  


 Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.  


 Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.  


 Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  


 Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  


 Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  


 Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  


 Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.  


 Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  


 Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].  


 Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.  


 Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.  


 Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.  


 Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

To be continued on next post...

 OK, so how do I get pre-trib from those verses?

 Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:  

 A GREAT WONDER. The American Standard Version has sign in place of wonder. The corresponding verb is used in 1:1: "And he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John." It is used again in 15:1: "And I saw another sign in Heaven." Although synbols are used at times in this section, the word sign is not meant to express that fact. It does not mean symbol; it means a great or wonderful revelation. The King James wonder expresses the thought. "In Heaven" here means in the sky. The woman would have to be in the sky if she is standing on the moon. The scene is transfered to the earth as soon as the child is born.

 THE WOMAN.  A woman in scripture, in it's broadest sense when used symbolically, always represents a church; this would include the saints of the Old Testament. ( A wicked woman is an evil or false church. )

 This woman represents the visable church. A visible church includes all it's members. There is an invisible church which consists only of the saved. Not all church members are saved. People join the church for various reasons.

 This woman is a symbol of the church of the 2nd and 3rd chapters. There the word church means the visible church. There even Thyatira and Laodicea are considered churches. Only in the day of seperation will the true church be revealed. The church holds her place among the candlesticks only because of the faithful ones within her.

CLOTHED WITH THE SUN. To be clothed with the sun is to be clothed with light. Light is the garment of God. He is light. The church is the custodian of light: "Ye are the light of the world." If there is any truth, the church has it; if there is any knowledge that can survive the grave, the church has it. All the light shed upon life's problems and mysteries by the Holy Spirit is hers. She is clothed with the sun.

THE MOON UNDER HER FEET. She is victorious in her position. The moon, the symbol of darkness and error, is under her feet.

A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS. The crown is a sign of royalty. "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an Holy nation, a peculiar people [ litterally, 'a purchased people' ]; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." - I Peter 2:9

 Twelve is the Old or New Testament saints. At the time she is seen here the Rapture is about to take place. The woman represents the church as it exists at the time of the Rapture.

To Continue On Next Post...

Continuation...

Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.  


 Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.  


 Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.  


 Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.


 THE MAN CHILD. If the woman is a symbol, then the child is also a symbol. Logically, if the woman represents a large body of people, the visible church, then the child represents a smaller body of people which comes out of the larger body. The child is the invisible church. There is to be a birth, a sudden seperartion.

 This is a picture of the Rapture. The child is "caught up" into Heaven. The church that is left must face antichrist.

 Here we have three symbols: a woman, a child, and a dragon.
 The 9th verse tells us the meaning of the dragon. It represents the devil. The stars which follow him are his angels.

 We are told who the child is: "Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron." This expression is used in the Bible to refer to both Christ and the saints. In Revelation it refers specifically to the saints.
 In each of the seven letters there is a promise to him that overcomes. These overcomers are the ones that will be "caught up" at the Rapture. These promises do not apply exclusively to the church addressed, but taken together, they constitute a sevenfold promise aplying to all the saved. One of these promises reads...

 Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:  


 Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.  

 We are told that the Raptured saints will be kings and priests and will rule the earth. This child represents those who rule the nations. The story of the woman and the child is interrupted to tell of the dragon which stands ready to devour the child as soon as it is born.

 Upon birth, the child is immediately "caught up" into Heaven to escape the dragon. This is accomplished with the aid of Michael and his angels who engage the forces of evil in a battle. It would seem that all the resources of Heaven are required to accomplish the successful birth of the child. The resurrection of all the saved dead and the translation of all the living saints is a tremendous undertaking in which great forces of Heaven are engaged.

 It has been thought by some that this woman represents Israel and the man-child, Christ. This is an impossible interpretation, as it would have a symbolic woman give birth to a literal child. That would be a monstrosity. Also, it cannot be said that Christ was "caught up" into Heaven to escape the devil. Jesus was not "caught up" into Heaven at birth as we all know, rather, He remained on earth for thirty three years, suffered crucification, and "ascended" to Heaven, slowly, deliberately, victoriously. Jesus ascended by His own power, the saints will be "caught up" by the power of God.

 The story of the child is interrupted to tell of the attempt of satan to devour the child as soon as it was born. This indicated that the fall of satan out of Heaven down to the earth comes at the same time as the birth of the child and is part of the story. The casting of satan out of Heaven down to earth results in the persecution of the saints by antichrist, a condition which prevails immediately after the Rapture. The man-child is born just before the Tribulation. Paul uses the same symbol in Thessalonians:

 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.  

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 SEVEN HEADS.

 The dragon is described in Revelation 12:3 as having seven heads and ten horns. We are dealing with consumations. The woman stands for the church of all ages. The dragon is satan in all his power throughout all the ages.
 He has now reached the last days of his freedom. He has been the prince of this world and as such has dominated the world under seven typical empires. Seven is always the number of completeness.

 Daniel saw four or these empires: Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. There will be one more under antichrist, making up the seven.

TEN HORNS. The ten horns connect with both the sixth and seventh heads, but as we are viewing satan in the last days, we must put the horns on the seventh head. The ten horns are the nations of the Roman empire. This is made clear by Daniel. Daniel said they would remain until the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are the basis of antichrists kingdom although antichrist will try to dominate more territory than was in the Roman Empire.

THE THIRD PART OF THE STARS. How great an angel satan was that in his fall he could draw to his side one third of the angels of Heaven! Satan's name was Lucifer, sun of the morning, or morning star. Angels are known as stars.
 In the bible the word "star" is used in the same sense that we use the word today, meaning either a heavenly body or a celebrity-a person of unusual ability.

 Nothing more is said about these angels. They constitute satan's government today. They are the pricipalities and powers in heavenly places. This kingdom of darkness will be broken up and the heavens will be cleansed. From now on there will be no more spiritual warfare; it will all center on earth.

 Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.  

THE WILDERNESS. Notice the glorious position of the woman prior to the birth of the child: clothed with light, victorious over the forces of darkness, and reigning as a queen. Now compare her condition after the birth of the child: all the former glory is gone; she is persecuted, hunted, forlorn, managing to keep only one step ahead of death. All her greatness was in the child. When the child is gone, her victory is gone. She no longer stands; she runs or flies in fear and weakness. Her dwelling place is now a wilderness.

 Previously she had been powerful and rich and in need of nothing. When the child is caught up to God, it takes all the glory with it. This is the most complete picture of the Rapture to be found anywhere in the Bible. Nearly every feature recorded elsewhere is found here.

 The wilderness represents the conditions which the church will face upon the earth after the Rapture: the wars, the famine, the pestilence, and the persecutions of antichrist. Antichrist will try to starve the woman by making it impossible for her members to buy or sell without the mark of the beast. It is out of this wilderness experience that the Tribulation Saints will come.

 Antichrist would immediately annhilate the church if he could. But there is yet to be saved a remnant of Israel and a great multitude of Gentiles from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. Therefore the life of the church must be extended a short time.

 The holy Spirit will no longer resist satan's attacks upon the church; but there will be other means of protection provided, and her life will be preserved for three and a half years. This has no connection with the three and a half years during which the Two Witnesses prophesy. These two distinct periods of three and a half years do not come at the same time.

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Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,  


 Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.  


 Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.  


 Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.  


 Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 WAR IN HEAVEN.  Satan has won and lost many battles, but they have only been skirmishes in the battle of the earth. Satan is continuously victorious. Just about all the world belongs to him. This will be his first disastrous defeat; for the first time he will actually lose ground.

 Satan is much more powerful that we like to believe. He is a formidable antagonist who demands and gets the respect of Heaven. Even Michael, we are told, did not dare bring a railing accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke thee" - Jude 9. When satan offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world, it would have been no temptation ifsatan had not had them to give.

 The church has always seemed to fight a losing battle against satan. If he could not suppress the church from without, he would attack it from within. The Resurrection of the dead is a crisis in Heaven, even more so than on the earth. The earth could cast out it's dead without anyone realizing what was hapening. Even the catching up of the living saints may not cause more than a ripple of excitement outside of church circles. The Resurrection itself will change the earth and it's ways very little, but for Heaven it will be a momentous event. Untold millions will be arriving all at once. Not only that, but these new people will be the most important individules ever to inhabit the spirit world. A whole new ruling class will take over, actually sharing the throne of Christ! This will necessitate a new Heaven. Whenever a new earth is mentioned, a new Heaven is usually included: "And I saw a new Heaven and a new earth"

 These saints that are going to fill the heavens have a characteristic not shared by the angels. They are overcomers of satan. They have met him on his own groundand have come off victorious. Such a company arriving in Heaven would spell the downfall of satan in short order. Satan must prevent the Resurrection at all costs. He occupies all the territory between earth and Heaven and therefore is in a good strategic position to "devour her child as soon as it is born"

 So the Resurrection is a crisis for satan and his principalities and powers (organized governments) Satan can not allow the Resurrection and still retain his position of power. He would not allow even one man to be raised if he could help it. Michael, we are told, comtended with the devil over the body of Moses. It is Michael, Daniel was told, who will stand up for the children of His people at the Resurrection. Paul mentions the voice of the Archangel (Michael) at the Resurrection, and Revelation says it will be Michael who will make war against satan and prevent him from devouring the child as soon as it is born. This war with satan and his angels has two results: it allows the saints safe access to Heaven, and it drives satan and his angels out of Heaven.

 This is why the time of the Rapture must be kept so secret. It must take satan by surprize. Jesus said He did not know the time of the Rapture. This has been explained by saying that Jesus was human as well as divine, and as a man, He did not know. This is not a very logical explanation. Jesus knew everything-even the thoughts of His hearers. He answered in detail the deciples questions about the end of the age. The time of the Rapture was kept out of His mind so that satan could not detect it. This is Heaven's top secret. When the allied forces were poised in England ready to invade France and Germany, the German forces knew they were there. They knew that an invasion was imminent. They could read the signs, but they did not know the day or the hour, and they were taken by surprize.

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Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.  

 "Woe for the earth and woe for the sea" Not just the inhabitants but the animals, vegetation, the earth as a whole-everything will feel the effect of satan's wrath!

 Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].  


 Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.  


 Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.  


 Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.  


 Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  

 TRIBULATION SAINTS. When satan finds he has lost all the true believers, he vents his wrath upon that part of the church that is left behind. This he can do without interference from the Holy Spirit, for He will have been taken out of the way-not out of the world, as some have thought, but out of the way of antichrist (II Thess.2:7). The church does get some protection, but it is of a physical nature.

 The earthquakes, the falling stars, the pestilances, and the plagues all hinder the dragon and help the woman. Satan sends out a flood of persecution which is designed to destroy the church completely, but the conditions on the earth and the troubles which satan faces work out to the advantage of the church and allow it to exhist for three and a half years after the Rapture. It is during this time that the Tribulation saints are saved.

THE REMNANT OF HER SEED. The seed of the woman are those who are saved after the Rapture, both Jew and Gentile. We can find these Tribulation Saints under the alter awaiting their resurrection. Later we see them when they all arrive in Heaven to join the whole group of saints. We are told they were killed because of their faith and that they had gone hungry and thirsty and had passed through great tribulation.

 The preceeding was taken from a book I read on understanding revelation in tandem with verses from Revelation from the New Testament.

Bronzesnake.

Pre-Trib?...no it cant be done, Michael stands up for this manchild and woman at the begining of Jacobs Trouble...we all know Jacobs Trouble is 3 1/2 years of Anti-christ rule,not 7 years. This is a great study by this guy,...but Pre-Trib? Impossible. Actually this is a Mid-Trib, Rapture. He almost has it right...he tried ,ill give him that much.

God bless

Praise the lord brother...im not debating ;D im just pointing out the error of this guys study. if he really thinks this is Pre-Trib?

God bless you

 Hello my friend.

 This guy is a staunch pre-trib scholar and he further explains it this way...

 Quote...
"Daniel would say that this would be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation on earth. The Rapture will take place before this time of trouble begins for the same reason that Noah entered the ark before the flood came and Lot and his family were taken out of Sodom before the fire came.

 I can give you more later on. Right now I'm feeling pretty ill and I'm on my way to bed.

Take care AJ.

Bronzesnake

Sorry to hear your feeling bad...ill pray for you. And yes the manchild is caught up to God before Michael stands up...but it all happens at the same time period, 3 1/2 years into the 7 year tribulation. One thing id like to mention... the first 3 1/2 years of the tribulation is when the Antichrist is peaceful...its in the middle of the week when Satan is cast out of heaven by Michael, because he tried to kill the manchild... that all hell breaks loose. So i would say the first half of the tribulation is certainly not going to be as bad as Jacobs Trouble...thats when the Antichrist breaks the peace agreement, and God delivers his elect. The manchild and woman, i cant put a day on this, or an hour... all i know is this is sometime Mid-Trib. Also, isnt the Pre-Trib rapture when John was caught up to heaven...how many raptures does Pre-Trib have?...my goodness my friend if some people with Dr. or scholar... in their names keep this up... Pre-Trib will be Post-Trib. Praise the lord brother...we need to pray about this...Jesus said seek and ye shall find, ask and ye shall recieve. Dont take my word on this, or any mans word...like Jesus said to Peter... flesh and blood hath not revealed this unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Edit: Sorry :) i had to add the name scholar.

Get well soon...God bless you

Amen :) I said dont take my word on this...actually take the word of God on this, you wont go wrong that way...read the prophecies its all there brother.

God bless

 Hello again AJ.
Thank you for the prayers my brother/sister?

 I'm not going into a long drawn-out "verse 'vs' verse" duel here my friend, but here's a couple of verses which point me to a pre-trib Rapture.

 Let me preface this by pointing out the fact that this whole pre-mid-post-whatever debate is not what I would consider a Heaven & Hell issue. Just because you're wrong  ;) doesn't mean you're going to miss the Rapture my friend.


 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  

 So first the Rapture (falling away) then immediately after the battle in the heavens between Michael and Satan, the devil is cast down to earth and makes his grand appearance..."man of sin be revealed." This doesn't really put a pre-trib or mid-trib slant on it though does it? These next verses do nail it down.


 Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

 We know that Heaven is locked so as not to allow any unknown coming or going. When Jesus returns with us in Rev 19 Heaven was "opened" to allow us to leave. So here, "a door was opened in heaven" Then Jesus calls John saying "Come up hither" This is a vision of the Rapture. We can understand that something significant just happened because God then says..."and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" In other words, now that the saints are safely with Me, I will show you what happens next.


 Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and [one] sat on the throne.  

 Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and [there was] a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.  

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  


Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.  


 Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.  


 This is what happens next. I believe this ( verses 4:2-6) is a vision of Jesus' Bema Judgement. The scene is right out of a Supreme Court; with God on His Throne and the elders at His side. John says he was in "spirit" the "sea of glass like unto crystal" which John sees is (I believe) multitudes of Raptured saints all in spirit, because flesh can not enter into Heaven.

 1Cr 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  

 Here's another clue that furthers my belief in the Bema Judgement.

 
 Rev 4:4 And round about the throne [were] four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.  

 How could these "elders" have received their crowns if the Bema Judgement had not occurred as of that point? How is it that they have been washed clean and are "clothed in white raiment"? It is plain to see that by Revelation 4 the Rapture had occurred and shortly there-after Jesus had Judged the saints and handed out the rewards.

 Now getting back to Michael and Satan.
 The author 'Arthur E Bloomfield' says the following...

 "The story of the child is interrupted to tell of the attempt of Satan to devour the child as soon as it was born. This indicates that the fall of Satan out of Heaven down to earth comes at the same time as the birth of the child and is part of the story. The casting of Satan out of Heaven down to earth results in the persecution of the saints by Antichrist, a condition which prevails immediately after the Rapture.The man-child is born just before the tribulation. Paul uses the same symbol in Thessalonians:

 " For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. I Thess. 5:3

 Take care, and may God richly bless you my friend.
Bronzesnake

I think i covered all this before with you, 24 elders as well...the manchild is caught up before the Great Tribulation... the same time Michael stands up (Jacobs Trouble the last 3 1/2 years) not the begining of the 7 year Trib. Anyway i said i wasnt going to debate, so ill stick to my word :)

God bless you brother