ChristiansUnite Forums

Hello,
 Do you think bush sending troops to iraq to destroy family, houses, lives etc was a good thing to do? >:( ???

Do you think it was a good idea for the world to ignore a madman barbarian who killed 1/2 million or more innocent people and supported terrorism around the world? This would not include the invasion of other countries and the hosts of people who were tortured and lived.   ???

a good thing ? no absolutely not. just the right thing to do..
its a good thing al gore wasnt president thank you florida :D

Do you think bush sending troops to iraq to destroy family, houses, lives etc was a good thing to do?

Yep. You make it sound, though, like every other war in history hasn't torn apart families, houses, and lives. War does that.

Saddam was bad yes...but bush has done worse..he said he was going to free the people...but now look at iraq..
what has he done? what?
All I was asking was...do you agree with him going there?

Absolutely YES!

If I was younger and able, I would sign up and go myself. I would much prefer to fight terrorists on their soil instead of waiting for them to come again to kill our innocent women and children on our soil. It's really very simple. The young men and women in the US Armed Services fight to protect their families. Their hope is their children and grandchildren won't have to fight the same enemies. Their determination is that our freedom and way of life will be preserved. YES!!!!, there is a time for men and women of courage to stand up and fight.

Saying that Saddam was better for Iraq is like saying Hitler was better for the Jews.

     Yes  Look at WW-2 it took years for Europe, Japan to recover, many more were killed & mained, but the alturnative is unthinkable.

Yeah, I'm looking, but I don't see what you are seeing.

Don't forget, Forrest, that to the US's efforts, Japan and Germany are some of the most prosperous countries in the world now! It took years and years, but look how they are doing. Personally, I'm against all this American anti-imperialism...

You might ask why do some keep blowing themselfs up trying to kill the us soldiers, the sooner the terrorist let the muslims take cotrol and stop the killing the sooner bush will with draw and then he will spend billions of the us tax payers money to improve the lifes of the common folk so the can live free and equal. but unfortionatly that will never happen ,but that is what he would like to do. but the radicals do not want it to be .                        praying for all the soldiers and their children and all the inisent in the war,.

I agree with Blackeyedpeas too. Absolutely yes. Ya know I am really tired of the War is wrong, blah blah propaganda. There was "war" in biblical days too ya know. I am also tired of how so many people are content with what happened on 9/11. Like "Oh, it wasn't that bad....we probably deserved it..." That sort of attitude. Lemme ask you Muslim, did you have anyone who died in those buildings? A family member? A friend? Did anyone you know or related to you die on those planes or in the field that day? Just curious. Probably not, because you might have a different view on things. While the killing is unfortunate, we are not a cowardly nation! We stand up when someone attacks us & I for one am glad that I have bold president who does such. I don't ask anyone to agree with me, but that is how I feel.
May I ask you something Muslim? What would you had the US do? Give them a slap on the wrist & say "Now now, that wasn't nice...Next time your gonna be in trouble...." (Total sarcasm) I mean really? Sit back & just let it go? You think this is the end? That the 9/11 was a one time thing & it will never happen again? That is exactly what the terrorists want us to believe. Where we get so comfortable that it's never going to happen & then when you least expect it--AGAIN! In close, Absolutely it was & is right and I pray everyday for all the soldiers and I know we are doing the right thing.

A muslim,
You wrote:
All I was asking was...do you agree with him going there?


Absolutely - if I wasn't too old - I'd re-don my Ranger gear and go fight.  Better your women and children than ours.  

The news of 9/11 resulted in people dancing with joy in the streets of a number of Muslim countries.  

NO leader from the Muslim religion stepped forward to condemn the actions or the celebration and to stop killing of innocents.  Until that happens, I have no choice to believe that it truly is a religion by the sword.  

I will continue to pray for you folks but I will also remain prepared to defend me and mine from an active, ongoing threat.

So - again - yes I think we should be there, and in Syria and  Iran and any other country that houses a religion that does not condemn suicide bombing and the killing of innocents.

And as a "By the Way", we have consistently placed our soldiers in harms way in a greater degree - just to ensure we don't kill innocents.  If we weren't concerned about that our response to the desecration of the 4 bodies would have been to destroy the entire city.

Instead it appears the response to was to systematically torture and sexually abuse prisoners - and take photographs to show how much "fun" it was. Reports are now saying that children were included in the torture.

Way to go.

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

That's certainly a horrible criminal act, and those involved should be prosecuted to the limit of the law. For the military people involved, that would mean Leavenworth Federal Prison, and that would be too good for them.

A tiny few have smeared the reputation and sacrifice of the many. It's also a horrible thing for the many to bear any punishment or disgrace for something they had no part of. If I were the parent of a young man or woman who gave their life in honor, I would be angry that anyone did something so gross and illegal that it cast a shadow on the honorable service of all. I would be demanding the harshest penalties of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. I'm not a parent who lost a loved one, but I demand the most harsh justice possible. The service of all but a tiny few has been in honor.

Love In Christ,
Tom

“Estimates vary, but at least 80% of the Male prison population in the United Kingdom has suffered some form of sexual abuse, either as children or adults, and many men have been subjected to rape and/or sexual abuse by other prisoners, and in some cases, have also been sexually abused by staff in the jails.”
Source: survivorsswindon.com

Statistics for the U.S. are similar, if not higher.

My question:  Where is the liberal bleeding and outrage for those in our own prisons?  Does the victim have to be an Iraqi for it to be inhumane?  If you listen to NBC, CBS, ABC, BBC, CNN the answer is a resounding YES!  

I’m trying to put this in perspective.  OK – An army private committed prisoner abuse in Iraq.  So, we have a private who reports to a sergeant who reports to a lieutenant who reports to a captain who reports to a major who reports to a colonel who reports to a general who reports to another general who reports to a joint chief of staff who reports to Rumsfeld.  So that makes it Rumsfeld’s fault and he should be hanged.

Wow! It’s all so clear now!  So, if these incidents mean we should impeach the president and leave Iraq, shouldn’t similar measures be taken for rampant prisoner abuse in the UK and the US?  That makes perfect since to me.  In the UK they need to hang Blair for prison rape, then everyone in the UK (well – ok – only those who wear some kind of uniform – soldiers, police, postmen…) must abandon the Islands.  It’s the only solution!  The same for the US.  Prison rape is rampant – we must impeach Bush and everyone who wears a uniform should run like a lemming into the sea.  That will insure peace and harmony among the masses.

Yep.  That’s the only solution.

(I once read about a liberal with common sense.  Of course – it was fiction.)  ;D

I hate election years.  I hate politics.  I pray for the soldier caught in the middle.  

May the Lord watch over them, protect them and and lead them not into temptation, but deliver them from the evil one.

 ;D  Of course it was fiction!!, but we knew that already.

We need to take the high ground again. I think that our first step should be to send all the politicians and lawyers to an isolated island and send the ACLU to be their government.

There would be wailing and gnashing of teeth all over that island. It would be like Jerry Clowery up in the tree fighting a mountain lion and hollering, "SHOOT UP HERE AMONGST US, ONE OF US GOTS TO HAVE SOME RELIEF!"

You have heard Jerry Clowery, right, or is he just known in the South?   ;D   ;D  The above was a quote from Jerry.

Tom

Jerry Clower for President.
We would be 100 times better off than we are now.
200 times better off than if John "Lurch, Frankenstein, Gomer, They-weren't-medals-only-ribbons, I-don't-drive-an-SUV, give-the-world-to-the-UN" Kerry wins.

We REALLY need the true theocracy...

Jesus Lord - come soon.  AMEN.

(I once read about a liberal with common sense.  Of course – it was fiction.)

Hahaha. How true.

MUslim said:  

Hello,
Do you think bush sending troops to iraq to destroy family, houses, lives etc was a good thing to do?  


Symphony:    

A major theme of the Old Testament is how God used the surrounding nations to judge Israel in its recurring obstinance and unbelief.

Today, in view of the current atrocites being committed by our own troops on Iraqii prisoners, God is using the Muslims to "rub our faces in it"--literally, and to show Americans, on worldwide TV and other media, how immoral we are, and what the price to be paid is, when we trifle with the Almighty, since we still refer to him loosely in some of our secular documentation, and since much of America still classifies itself as *Christian*  ::) .

Predictably, and consistant with the Old Testament theme, this hypocracy is only fueling Muslim extremists, and others', hatred of us.  

This is a case of pure textbook judgement, in the same way the hapless Haman was hanged on the very gallows he'd so arrogantly and happily intended for someone else.(book of Ester)

We're having to eat crow now, we've laid our own trap, by failing to expose and rebuke increasing wholesale immorality in our own land, we now literally have our troopers practicing it abroad, for all the world to see.


And it's simply because we have a system, atmosphere and general "dynamic", that says bacially there is no more immorality, there is no more wrong, there is no more "sin".  

It only makes sense that our troopers--representatives of us on foreign soil, would act likewise.  


And the biggest indicator of all of this is, very few if anyone will recognize the connection.

At best, most Americans will simply roam the streets, ringing their hands, saying, "it's not my fault".

Just like the ancient Israelites--arrogant, self-satisfied, indifferent, careless.

No it is not a good thing to do, it is the right thing to do.
It is also apart of prophecy, in the Holy Bible.

Its not just those who have already died. Right now, you do not want to be an American and taken prisoner in Iraq. All they're going to think is, if they are going to torture people, they'll get the same back. And the same goes for the UK troops, whether or not those photographs were faked. There is absolutely no way I'd go to Iraq in any capacity in the present conditions, and I pity the people already there - even if they wouldn't dream of hurting an Iraqi prisoner it will be assumed they would torture. And the people aren't that keen on them to begin with...

I understand why they're attacking your defence guy though. The people directly involved must (and presumably will) be prosecuted - in fact I should think their lives will be ruined by what they have done. Considering that they have harmed others, and completely and utterly wrecked what was left of America's reputation abroad, that is fine with me. But their superiors must also face something of the rap for this - for allowing conditions to flourish where it could happen, where people could not report what was happening, where it could not have been stopped.

And frankly, President Bush has come out of this badly. The fact that he only bothered to apologise when the media found out - is disgraceful. It makes it look - true or not - that he only cares if it might possibly impact his chances in your elections, and that that was the reason he apologised, not because he actually cared. He should also give his scriptwriter the sack, that was a very weird apology he gave, they should have toned up his words an awful lot, it would have meant more.

There is something curious about this though. The female soldier who was pictured - well her family, her mother and her sister have been on the news over here in the UK quite a lot, saying that the photo was either staged, faked or she was forced to do as she did. But apparently the US networks are saying that her family have left the country, gone on a holiday or something and cannot be contacted. No idea why that should be, that we are getting news you're not. (I only heard about it because my dad was in Texas last week).

JudgeNot,

If you wish to be nationalistic about it, may I tell you that we do have concern about the state of our prison system, that we have regular reports and a visiting society - much like the Red Cross - who visit prisoners in an attempt to stamp out the sexual abuse which continues at prisons, and to improve conditions. Psychological and psychiatric help is always available - and I am sure you would be pleased to note that prison chaplaincy is a fast-growing area of Christian ministry.

The blame for some of the events in Iraq is being placed on your prison system, apparently one of the soldiers was a prison guard at a notorious American prison.

It is also apart of prophecy, in the Holy Bible.

*Sigh.*

No, it's not.

Torture, Broken? Torture? PLEASE! Being hung on a cross, that is torture. Being stretched across a rack, that is torture. Cutting finger off, that is torture. Making POWs pile up, not torture. Take pictures of POWs without clothing on, not torture. It those pictures are your idea of "torture" then you need to really think about it. Painful, uncomfortable, yes. But if everything that was painful and uncomfortable was labeled as torture... ::)

The people directly involved will be prosecuted and their lives will be ruined. Military prisons, you sit in the hot sun all day, breaking large boulders into gravel. And after you serve your time, you are then dishonorably discharged, making it next to impossible to get a job, being an ex-con who was dishonorably discharged, with little or no marketable skills. Yeah, looks like dreams really do come true. Just wishing on that star, Broken, maybe America will fall soon, too. ::)

And frankly, President Bush has come out of this badly. The fact that he only bothered to apologise when the media found out - is disgraceful. It makes it look - true or not - that he only cares if it might possibly impact his chances in your elections, and that that was the reason he apologised, not because he actually cared.

Ahem. U-2 incident, anybody?

Being forced to commit sexual acts? Not torture?


Humiliation of that sort is defined as torture.


Ah, I see, it is acceptable to you for your soldiers to behave in such ways.

Dear me, Tibby, it is people like yourself who are giving America an incredibly bad name across Europe and the Middle East.

No. Not good, but not torture. And even if it is well... so what? Why are the we only country that has to abide by the Geneva Convention? No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get hammered by every pansy Nation in the World.



By who? Who defined torture as humilation? Fred Savage?  ::)



Said who? Not me. ::)



Well, what can I say, we are the strongest country in the world. We have States larger then most countries. It is to bad you don’t like us, but, well, honestly, there is nothing you can do about it. If you feel so strongly about it, boycott us. Oh wait, most counties are dependent on trade with America, aren’t that? Whine all you want, none of these countries are going to do a thing about it.

If you want to continue taking the moral high ground that America so likes to take, yes. And no, America is not the only country who abides by it.

[quote[No one gets upset about other country torturing Americans, with there Government supporting it, but when a set rogue solders mock a few POWs, and the Government frouns on it, we get our balls busted by every pansy Nation in the World.
Ah only pansys do not torture people? If pansys do not torture enemy soldiers then presumably you think the arabs who will, no doubt torture American soldiers are real MEN and just great.


By your own country.


You're certainly giving a good impression of condoning it.


And few people.


So let me see, you're saying, we can torture foreigners because we are strong, might makes right, let foreign nations we once swore to protect now bow down before the American super-race!. Thats disgusting. That is also against everything that has ever been good in America.

And that is the mentality that led to these atrocities in the first place, the hidebound, insular, ignorant mentality of small-town ill-educated people. And there was I feeling sorry for such people, thinking they must be poor, ill-educated, treat badly by their own government - and then I see it in you.


It is fortunate that I know that most Americans are decent people who do NOT condone torture of other people.

We stood up against Hitler, we can do so against America if it ever turns into the tyrannical, evil, immoral nation you seem to wish it will be.

So, every nation always tortures enemy prisoners? It is a natural thing, we should accept the torture of others as a normal human instinct, and never ever put in place laws against the torture of other human beings. Right.


You have a Constitution, perhaps you should read it sometime.


It is perfectly clear from your posts that you do not think the torture of Iraqi prisoners a terrible thing at all. Presumably a mentality shared by the torturers themselves.


Who said I hated America? You seem to be mistaking my dislike of certain traits of some Americans for all of America. Trouble is, idiots always shout loudest, which is why you get such a bad reputation.  
Your argument appears to be: America is strong, therefore America is right, whatever an American does is right, don't dare oppose us.

Rousseau has a lot to answer for.


Its wonderful, looking at all the American movies rewriting the past to suit their audiences, isn't it?

Next thing we know, people will be saying America came into the war to save the Jews!


I am not putting words into your mouth, but following along from what you have said. If you do not like your own conclusions perhaps you should stop holding those ideas.

I don’t see a part that says Humiliation is torture. Maybe you should read it.



I have yet to see any torture of Iraqi prisoners.  ::)



Go ahead, oppose us. I'm all for you opposing us. So, why don't you stop whinging and start opposing?


Rousseau has a lot to answer for.


Ok, go a head, tell me how it really was, then. ::)

Thank the Supreme Court.

Thank the voters.

Of course, I do find it interesting that in a male dominated society which values manhood so highly, that when they take guy, strip him down and have a woman mock his manhood, such things would be very much spirit breaking.  And if you're looking for information...just a thought.  Not condoning or supporting.  Just pointing out the apparantly not blatantly obvious.

Shameful, allinall, yes, but taking pictures of a mans genital, while humiliating, is not torture. Torture is cutting his **** off with a dull knife, then crushing the **** in a clamp.

Try the eighth amendment (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment08/). I should not be having to tell you your own law.


Try watching the news.


I don't want to oppose America as such, I am already opposing you, or hadn't you noticed?


Well it certainly wasn't to save the Jews. No country entered the war for that reason.

I have some bad news for you. That Constitution, only for Americans. That’s rights. You see, not all leaders feel the need to grant their people these rights. It is a shame. On top of that, Cruel and unusual has been ruled as Torture. And I didn’t see any torture.



I'm a Political Science Major, it is a requirement ;D I’m seen High School baseball teams do worse in their hazing of Freshmen. ::)


Yeah, you know, it's funny, I haven't had much opposition. Keep trying.



Who said it was to save the Jews? Wars arn't fought for some distant minorities torture (THAT is torture). I never said we fough to save Jews. We did, however, end up saving both the jews AND not-so-Great Britain. Now tell me, how is that rewriting the past? ::)

The RESERVISTS actions are disgusting!  >:(

Whether or not it's 'torture'; it definitely is juvenile and dishonorable. Because of the actions of the Army RESERVISTS they've given our whole military and our whole country a bad name. I think they should be handed over to the Iraqi's to deal with.  ::)

Only problem is, what Iraqi's? :( There really arn't any Iraqi's to deal with it. We are their policing force, we are there court system, for now, we are there Government. :-\

Besides, it looks like the Iraqi's already handled it in their own way. >:( Ahd it is strange, the media still seems even more outraged about the photo's!  >:(

Things are not as the News Media reports!!!!!!!!

         As I head off to Baghdad for the final weeks of my stay in Iraq, I

wanted to say thanks to all of you who did not believe the media. They have

done a very poor job of covering everything that has happened. I am sorry

that I have not been able to visit all of you during my two week leave back

home.

         And just so you can rest at night knowing something is happening in

Iraq that is noteworthy, I thought I would pass this on to you.  This is the

list of things that has happened in Iraq recently: (Please share it with

your friends and compare it to the version that your paper is producing)

         Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time

ever in Iraq.

         Over 400,000 kids have up to date immunizations.

         Over 1500 schools have been renovated and ridded of the weapons that

were stored there so education can occur.

         The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off loaded from

ships faster.

         School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.

         The country had it's first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.

         The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before

the war.

         100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed compared to 35%

before

         the war.

         Elections are taking place in every major city and city councils are

in place.

         Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.

         Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.

         Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.

         Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side

with US soldiers.

         Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.

         Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to

prevent the spread of germs.

         An interim constitution has been signed.

         Girls are allowed to attend school for the first time ever in Iraq.

         Text books that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the

first time in 30 years.

         Don't believe for one-second that these people do not want us there.

I have met many people from Iraq that want us there and in a bad way. They

say they will never see the freedoms we talk about but they hope their

children will. We are doing a good job in Iraq and I challenge anyone,

anywhere to dispute me on these facts. So If you happen to run into John

Kerry, be sure to give him my email address and send him to Denison, Iowa.

This soldier will set him straight. If you are like me and very disgusted with how this period of rebuilding has been portrayed, email this to a friend and let them know there are good things happening.

 

         Ray Reynolds, SFC

         Iowa Army National Guard

         234th Signal Battalion

          =====

I got this in an e-mail and thought I would share.

Naturally you feel that an American is worth more than any other race, including races you are actually ruling.


Cruel and unusual does not just mean "electrodes on the genitals". It was also defined as things like imprisonment without trial, humiliation, sleep deprivation.....etc etc etc.



Ah, yes the institutionalised torture prevalent among American men. We've heard of that over here.


You didn't learn much in your political classes, huh?


Assuming you were the only ones fighting against the Nazis and making it into a moral crusade makes it plain that the rumours we hear about the state of American education are, alas, true.

Thanks for sharing your email New_Self.  

Our service people are mostly good. As in any group of people there are bad 'apples'. Seems many folks here and overseas want America to fail and try hard to make it seem as she has failed. I have distant family over there and their reports agree with your email.

Thanks to all who serve...

Actually, that isn’t I said. ::)



While that is wrong, it is not counted under the phrase "Cruel and unusual " in the 8th amendment. That is the Fifth Amendment.



I would love to see that in writing.



Yeah, that counts. Why does it count, you ask? Simple: that is Torture... ::)



If you think it is just American Men, you have another thing coming. ::)



Oh, I learned plenty.



Who said we where the only ones? France fell and England was in shambles when America joined, and this joining turned the war. Do you deny this?

Oklahoma Howdy to New_Self,

I am a proud Navy dad. My son serves on the Nimitz. You are right that the news media is not covering all of the good that's being done. You are giving an entire country freedom, but you are also making sure your children and grandchildren have freedom.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Didn't they hate us before?  :-\ Some current and future killings and torture may be "justified" by the fact that some of our soldiers abused some of theirs; but have things really changed? Wouldn't they have harmed us (or wanted to) anyway, if we had not done something disgraceful?
I've read that the cell in which Iraqi prisoners were mistreated was the same building in which Saddam Hussein and his friends routinely raped and tortured Iraqi people. What we did was wrong; but surely it occurs to you that, while some of America's soldiers grossly overstepped their bounds, our government and its Army are disgusted and willing to punish such behavior, whereas the government of Saddam approved it. The very fact that our media is blasting President Bush, our army, etc. for this crime shows how quick America is to condemn such practises.
Under the "Old regime", if an athlete performed poorly, they were likely to be beaten or raped. Athletes now live in much less fear of such cruel treatment from their own leaders.

America has made some mistakes, of course; its war, expect it. But the men and women who are fighting out there are fighting for justice, and I don't believe it is right to smear everyone for the war crimes of a few.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4982402/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4982402/)
This what makes me so angry about what the abuse scandal has caused:






But this is my fervent hope: