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It is the goal of cult leaders to get their congregation to worship them instead of Christ. Oh, they say they are worshiping Jesus Christ. David Koresh talked bout Jesus all the time. But after a while, he would add something to scripture from his mind until slowly he made the claim that he was the messiah. The catholic church does the same thing. Only they're much more cunning. They knwo that claiming to be the messiah is outward blasphemy, so instead, the peope calims to be thw Holy Father and the church intself claims to be infallible. Again, their goal is the same as a cult; To get people to see them as infallible and the ONLY way to God.

Unortunately, what this does, is not only lead a person away froma personal relationship with Christ, but it creates die hard members who are terrified not to believe them. Oh, the members say things like, "I believe in Christ, not the church." But their actions show that what's in their hearts is, "How dare anyone criticize the catholic church!" What is in our hearts is what we truly believe. That's what jesus means by; "They honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." We have to know what's in our hearts before we know what we really believe. The loyalty of catholics sometimes surpasses that of cults. They REFUSE to believe that the church is composed of fallible human beings, even though they say the know these people are fallible, their hearts show they do not really believe this. If people truly want to be saved, they can't do it by believing ANYONE but Christ alone. Catholics need to read the bible for themselves instead of relying on the church as their mediators. Christ is a person's ONLY meidator to God which is what makes our relationship with Him personal. It is between each person and Chrsit, and nobody else!

Jesus the Christ + anything or anyone = CULT.

Appropos to that though, what is a "CHARISMATIC CATHOLIC?" I knew one catholic who actually got saved in a charismatic church, and she ran as far and as fast as she could from the cc.(catholic church)

aw

That's not surprising to me at all. Most born again Christians I know do not like the catholic church. I have met many ex catholics in a charismatic church. The term born again shouldn't even be added to the word "Christian" because the only true Christian is a born again Christ accoding to Christ. It's too bad there has to be a distinction.

Do we need yet another thread of baseless, illogical, rhetoric attacking the RCC?

Yes. The RCC doctrine is worse than that of the Judaizers.
Appropos to that, why isn't the eucharist "CANNIBALISM?"

aw

Enough said.

Hi Heidi and aw,

I am interested in what you have stated about the Catholic Church.  First you state that it is a cult and then you state that many people leave it when they become born again.  My understanding of any kind of cult would be that it would be very hard to leave and if you do you would never be welcomed back.  How is that so many can leave so freely if the church is really a cult?

Cheers
Therese

Catholics are indoctrinated from birth. Just one example of the false and heretical teachings of that organization is "INFANT BAPTISM." They go on to such ascriptural and bondage- producing teachings such as purgatory. They actually teach that at death a person in purgatory can be released only through prayers offered by the catholic church.

The entire system is designed to place people in and hold them in BONDAGE. However, "Whom the Son sets free is free indeed." When the light shines all of the darkness engendered by the RCC has to flee.

aw

You love to lie don't you?

I guess since I'm Orthodox I was indoctrinated too? I believe in infacnt baptism, It's in the Bible.  When it says that whole households were baptised It's hard to believe that none of those households had babies.  

Aussie,

"No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him." That is a true statement. The only power over the devil is the Holy Spirit. The only way cult members can be reprogrammed is by the Holy Spirit Himself because he is the only entity more important than the devil. Jesus said that the Counselor is the "spirit of truth". Once that enters us, we then have the ability to understand Jesus's words. At that point, discernment develops and a person has the capacity to leave the cult. Without the Holy Spirit, the devil's ways seem right to us. We justify worshiping men, immorality, adherence to the law, pride, greed, etc. No person can convince someone he is being misled by a cult. Only God can. That is why the Muslims and the catholics are such fanatics. However, if God is drawing a person, then He uses the Holy Spirit in other people in the world to show that person who Christ is. If anyone leads any of us away from Christ and into worldly things, whether it's believing church doctrine over the bible and Christ's words, then it is not from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit teaches us to worship Christ and Christ alone. It is only through Christ that we have access to God, not through the church. Again, that is what a personal relationship with Christ is. If a church leads you toward it instead of toward Christ alone, then it is a cult.  

Hi aw,

Have you ever heard the saying do not judge another until you have walked a mile in his shoes.

I therefore have one question for you.  Have you ever been a part of the Catholic church?

Cheers
Therese

heidi it sounds like your the leader of a anti catholic cult, by the way your hurting brother loves case, not helping . ;D

Heidi,

You state that the church leads us towards itself rather than towards Christ.  I think this is an untrue statement.  On what basis do you make this claim?  I think that church does lead us to Jesus.  The church wants us to have a deep relationship with Jesus and is so committed to this that we can attend church every day.  We listen to three readings everyday from the bible and we praise Jesus for paying the price of our sins.

Please show me, how the church leads us to itself instead of to Christ.

When a statement is made we need to be able to provide some proof to back it up.

Cheers
Therese

Aussie Mum
 :)
AMEN SISTER

The leader of my church is Christ, not the pope. He warned us to beware of false teaching. He also said that he did not come to bring peace but a sword. He came to turn; Father against, son, mother against daughter, and brother against sister. He didn't do this intentionally but knew that there would be division between believers and unbelievers. David Koresh said he was a believer but he worshiped himself more tha Christ. The catholics say they are believers but they trust the pope's words and catholic doctrine before they trust Christ's words. By their behavior and doctrine they have shown where their faith is in themselves rather than in Christ! Otherwise they would worship Him alone! But they hail Mary even though her power came from God, but they either forget that or don't believe that. Jesus did indeed cause divisions for the sake of the truth. Saving souls is far more important than harmony. That was His whole point in bringing a sword! Or don't you think souls are more important than loving the pope?

How can God NOT do anything intentionally, He is after all God.
The leader of our church is Christ also, remember the church is not just here on earth, the Pope is our spiritual leader here
on earth who is governed by the Holy Spirit, that does not diminish Christ in anyway. Do we trust the Popes words and Catholic doctrine? Well yes we do, after all they are led by
the Holy Spirit, and we don't really believe that God would
leave us poor sinners to our own demise and folly. Why do you think there are teachers in schools, if we just handed books to the kids and say figure this out, we'd be in world of hurt, much like what happens when people set themselves
up as their own infallible sorce of Biblical knowledge. Christ's
word are what Catholic doctrine is all about, contrary to what you might think and claim. Can you imagine what would happen to a country if they had no guidance, no rules, no laws, and no one to oversee the whole thing? Chaos comes to mind, something like what we see in protestant circles.

That is exactly how the Roman emperors justified persecuting the early church.  Your in bad company.

How do you know the Holy Spirit is in the pope? Who said? One catholic said that none of us can know who's saved or not. Is that true? Do you know that the pope is saved because other men said so? Some men who have received the Holy Spirit say he isn't. Which ones are right? We have ALL heard the word of God through the centuries and we are ALL imperfect. Again, putting your faith in men is idol worship. I haven't a clue whether or not the pope is saved. That's between himself and God and nobody else. But He is not my Holy Father. I have only ONE HOLY fATHER. How many do you have?

By his Fruit, ofcourse.

By living in a palace fit for kings, adorned with gold, silver, and bronze, with armed guards and allowing people to call him their Holy Father? How does ANY of that show the fruits of the spirit, one of which is humility? Notice that when people call him good, not only does he NOT say, "No one is good but God alone", but he also considers himself our Holy Father. You get get more prideful than that!

;D ;D ;D

Heidi     hail mary

Well, the Klu Klux Klan leader says he is a Christian. Should i say, right on, brother! Hate your enemies? Or should I repeat Christ's words? Again, Jesus said He did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Most of the born again believers i know consider the catholic church to be false teaching. If it is, we are not brothers in Christ.

tell me, do all the christain religions have the same practices? i think not . thats what makes them different. so is yours the only one that is perfect? yes i agree the catholics make mistakes but to think of them as non- christains and compare them to the kkk is out of control.

why do you argue this so much , is it for the lord ?
if it is to have the catholics change or not except surtain things about the catholic church, then your thinking with your heart , but im sorry you are not speaking with it. and you are not winning over any catholics with your aproach.

ive joked with you in the past but try praying , about this issue see were god leads you. im concerned about you.sister
from a non-catholic practiceing in a catholic church butcha

Paul didn't have a problem with calling himself a father. ::) You list a lot of things, and yet you haven't said a reason why these are not of God. He heads up the largest Humanitarian operations in the world, percentage wise, that is. He has brought many to Christ. Not Mary, but Christ. He gave his entire life just to serve God.

"No one comes to me unless the Father draws him." I don't have the power to change anyone's mind, Buttcha. That is in God's hands. Genuine truth seekers will look at all sides of an issue. If they are being drawn by God, then the Holy Spirit, the Counselor, will lead them into all truth. Not me or the catholic church.

Paul NEVER called himself our Holy Father, NEVER. He called himself the father of the gospel which he is because he first revealed who Christ is through the Holy Spirit. But i would never call Paul 'father' just like Christ told me not to, nor would Paul want me to. If the pope is saved, then God is leading him, not he, himself. People seem to want to give the pope credt for his "goodness" instead of God. That, again, is idol worship.

Last I checked, there are no verses against calling someone “Holy Father.”  ::)

Wrong again Heidi, we give God all the credit for making the Pope the loveable, good, kindhearted, little Holy Father he is!
He would be the first to give God credit too. You really should
read his writings, very interesting good stuff.

So why do you call the pope holy when it is God who makes him holy? Again, as Jesus said,; "We have only one father and he is in heaven." This is a classic example of saying one thing and doing another. You say you aren't giving the pope credit for his 'goodness" but by calling the pope your Holy Father, you are indeed giving him the credit for his holiness instead of God.

One thing that Catholics believe is that the Bible cannot Contradict itself.

Jesus says "Call no man Father"

Possible contradictions:
St. Stephen call Jewish leaders "fathers"
St. Paul calls Jersulaem Jews "fathers"
St. Paul calls Abraham, "the father of us all"

So I offer two explanations.  1.  Either the Bible is contradictory.  2.  The Father that Jesus speaks of is different than the father that the Apostles speak of.

Take your pick, and let me know.

Why shouldn't i call him holy? If it is God that makes him holy,
he is still holy is he not? As stated before its all Gods doings.
   Look up holy in the dictionary again please.

So why don't you give God the credit? or do you worship the pope more than God? Jesus gives God the credit. You again don't believe him. That is idol worship which proves my point about who is on the throne of the universe in your heart. I have rarely seen such a lack of faith in God for someone who professes to worship God and Christ as I do in you, Rich. You don't believe in your salvation or Christ's words. Again, mixed messages. You can believe that the pope is your Holy Father but he will never get you to heaven. I know who mine is and He indeed will get me to heaven! We will probably NEVER agree because we worship different fathers.

I offer two explanations.  1.  Either the Bible is contradictory.  2.  The Father that Jesus speaks of is different than the father that the Apostles speak of.

Take your pick, and let me know.

Rich, Do you give God the credit for all things holy?

Ben5, yes i do. How about you, and Christopher, Tibby, ibea,
Nickolai, Michael?

I've stated before that I was born and raised catholic, but now I worhsip in an inter-denominational church.

Do I believe the catholic church is a cult?  Well, I have my issues w/ the church.  I still have family that is VERY involved in the catholic church...my one cousin was "mother general" of the sisters of her order.  Do I believe that she is not saved?  I don't know what's in her heart, so I can't say.  I know she loves Jesus and serves the Lord.  I think Vatican city is a joke, to tell you the truth.  Jesus lived humbly...why should the pope and all those involved live like kings?  
I don't believe the pope is infallable...I like him and all...but do I praise and worship him?  No.  
I went to a priest at a catholic church I used to attend.  I asked him why I have to call him(or the other priests) father when the Lord is our ONLY Father.  He told me I can call him pastor, reverend, or even just by name.  
I don't pray to Mary...I pray right to the Lord through Jesus and with the Holy Spirit.

As for the catholic church being a cult...well, in some people's eyes it may well be.  I don't agree w/ a LOT of the things they teach, but I do know, from going to catholic schools from pre-k through college, that I was taught to love Jesus as my Lord and Savior.  I guess I've always done the "pick and choose" thing w/ the catholic beliefs.  I never understood, even as a child, why we would pray to Mary or the other saints and not just to our Lord and Savior.  

Now...I've been to a lot of other churches in my searchings, and in some of these other denominational Christian churches, they would not have a cross or a picture of Jesus, but a picture of the pastor up over the pulpit(did NOT stay at that church).  

I guess what I'm saying is that the Church is not a building or an organization, it is all of us, as individuals, and believers, that are the Church.  
It's all in having Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and praising and worshipping Him.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Church is not a building or an organization, it is all of us, as individuals, and believers, that are the Church.  
It's all in having Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and praising and worshipping Him.

Amen DovesWings!

FWIW:

A friend and brother, Joe Myzia, sometimes teaches and often preaches. He is fond of using acronyms to explains something, and came up with this one on C.U.L.T.

It goes a long way (imo) to explaining how cults not only deviate, but how we can recognize one.

C – Conduit. Cults usually contain a charismatic communicator who claims to be the conduit between creator and creation. For example, Jones, Koresh, Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell. The difference between them and a church is that a church may have a high leader, but that leader never raises himself above the Bible. Examples of that would be Charles Stanley, Billy Graham or Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel. These men are highly looked up to. But they willingly acknowledge that they are subject to the Bible. Judge their teaching by the Bible (be a Berean). The cult leader (conduit) says judge the Bible by what he says.

U – Unique. Flip side of the same coin. Conduit says, “we have the message.” Here the cults say “no one else has it.” Again, Mormonism is the only true way of salvation as far as they are concerned. Again, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Calvary Chapels, etc., don’t claim this. They realize there are other denominations through which the Lord is working. Uniqueness simply means that "truth" exists only within their own church or denom.

L – Literature. Cults have extra literature that is on the level of or even above the Bible. Jehovah’s Witness literature claims you can study their materials for two years w/o the Bible and be in the light, but if you use the Bible w/o their literature you’ll be in the dark. Churches again, have commentaries and books, but those books are always recognized as opinion. Granted we may have a high opinion of them, but we judge them by the Bible, not vice versa (just like the conduit) If the books or writings in any way supercede the authority of Scripture (even if claiming to be based on Scripture), then it is "cultish" .

T – Theology.

Essential (orthodox) Christianity includes these 7 points:

1. Jesus was bodily resurrected.
2. Atonement is by placing faith in Jesus’ substitutionary death on the cross.
3. The Bible is the inspired Word of God.
4. Jesus is virgin born (fully human)
5. Jesus is fully God
6. Trinity –
   A) one god.
   B) three persons called God: Father, Son & H.S.
   C) 3 persons are co-equal & co-eternal.
7. Jesus is coming again to establish his kingdom.

Cults always deviate from at least one point, but usually multiple, from that list.

There seems to be an abundance of threads dissecting the Catholic church.
Why another?
When I clicked on this thread I was hoping that it would be discussing other religions that try to pass themselves off as Christian.
Like the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, etc.

Hey, look, it’s the Apostle’s Creed, the Travel sized ;D

Except it's got subsitutionary atonement added  ::)

There seems to be only one subject that certain(look at who started the thread) people enjoy carrying on about. Of course
certain people believe Catholics are trying to pass themselves off as Christian.  
     It would be kind of nice to see some new topics come up
though wouldn't it?

hey i feal left out id like to be mentioned in the same breath as these great people of the lord ;D

no you dont have the power that is why i wounder why your trying so hard to put down the catholic religion, whats your goal just to show your smarter. i would think you would want to pray to the lord like i suggested earlier that he guide you in your quist , let him use you. im saying this to you for your sake, not to put you down. when one speaks about the bible , god , or religion, it should be for the purpose of uplifting our lord. so i ask why do you go about this cruesade in the manner you do? have you helped anyone see your point? uplifting them to the lord? i'm sure you have a lot of positive love in your heart share it with us, for we cannot see it behind your worldy ways the god do your talking.

  i do care about you i hope you see that , i hope this is not taken as a put down or anything.
    in peace butcha

As a matter of fact, I do.

So do I.

Of course I do.

So Heidi, where to do you get this idea from that we don’t?

I think everyone has rebutted her theology so she's not gonna post.  

I think your right. Of course, she is going to try to say something about how WE are not listening to her or we don't care for Gods word, or some other slanderous lie. ::)

Thats because we just do lip service of course, you can spot
the 'true Christians' very easy on here ya know. Is that a bad apple or pear i smell?  

Mat 7:17  Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Gal 5:22  But the fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23  meekness, self-control; against such things there is no law.  
Eph 5:9  (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth),

And THAT'S how we know!
 ;D

We can call ourselves "born again Christians" all we want, but if we aren't walking around with those "fuits" hanging off of us, I'd have to wonder (yeah, even wonder about myself sometimes)  :)

Gracey

I'm getting a lot of flack from "professed" Christians for saying we should worship only one God and Jesus Christ whom He sent. Should I believe your words when you say you worship only Christ alone, or your actions when you pray to Mary and a myriad of other human beings, call your leader your Holy Father which Jesus said is a title reserved for only ONE, and believe the church doctrine is infallible?Why do you mock me for saying that we should worship Christ alone? Unbelievers are supposed to mock Christians for saying that. Whose beliefs more clearly agree with Christ's words, yours or mine? Please provide scripture from CHRIST to support your answer.

Are there invisible posts saying that?  ???


Again, since when does Prayer = Worship?


last time I looked God the Father was called Heavenly Father not Holy Father.


I Christ a liar?


Noone has done that here.


Well your word most closely resemle your interpretation of Christ's words.  As apposed to an entire Body of Believers.  Although I don't agree with Catholics on everything.  I have to say their interpretation makes a lot more sense.

gosh i can't believe i am even responding on this thread....heidi and aw are just a rash of accusations without thought.

however i just wanted to point out that there was a claim that the catholic church was a cult because a cult tries to focus on a man, then we see aw comment on the eucharist..  

now here is the dilemma... the whole point of the mass is to recieve the eucharist, which to a catholic is the body and blood of christ. it is the centerpiece, the climax. the whole point of protestant worship is the preacher preaching a sermon. I think if there is any chance of being a cult it is those that go to hear a man that should be cautioned and not those that are getting a piece of bread and drink of wine. The catholic can go to any catholic church to worship, many protestants have to hop around till they find a preacher that gets them excited.

for you protestants that do not do this, my apologies. i was a protestant for 10 years and know many fine and outstanding brothers and sisters in the lord.  i have also watched hundreds of people come and go because the preacher wasn't preaching what they wanted to hear...even though it was from the bible.

mike