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Absolutely! God does not ofer a salvation that we should ever be in doubt about. If we understand that salvation is a completely free and unearned, unmerited gift received by simple faith in Christ, then we have the basis for assurance. We can boldly say, "I know IN WHOM I have trusted and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which has been entrusted to Him. (2 Tim 2:12)

God loved us even when we were sinners and scripture reveals that, "To him the WORKETH not, but BELIEVETH on Him that JUSTIFIETH the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

We have every scriptural reason in the world to believe that we are saved because it rests upon the works and grace of God. It is GOD who JUSTIFIES the ungodly.

Be assured of your salvation my brother/sister,

aw

Yes if salvation was by faith alone - a simple one time mental decision to accept Christ in just His role as sacrificial lamb you might have assurance of salvation.  But that is not how we accept the free gift.  To truly believe in Him we need to accept Him in all His roles and that includes picking up our cross DAILY and following Him.  Our cross and our following Him are not complete until our days end, so we cannot know if we will do it everyday until we die.  What happens if we do not do it every day?  He tells us that if we choose this life over following Him we will lose our eternal life.

Luk 9:23-26  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.   For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?   For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.


I think you have the wrong verse reference -

2 Tim 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Perhaps you meant -

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Note that this says if we suffer.  We always have the free will to decide to choose the comforts of this world (choosing to save our earthly life and not suffer) over Him.  if we do that we lose the salvation you think we are so certain of.


This is a statement against those who would work to merit salvation, not against those who keep their faith alive and perfect it through works of love.  We can see this by just reading the verse prior -

Rom 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

See Paul is preaching against those who want to earn their salvation, not against those who respond lovingly toward God and their neighbor for the gift.

As I have said before following Christ's instructions on how to accept and hold onto the gift in no way merits the gift for us but it is still required otherwise Christ wouldn't have bothered to tell us to do all these things.


Then you should provide them as the ones you offer do not show that and the ones I have provided clearly state that we must continue in proper doctrine to the end to have properly accepted the gift and be saved.

Michael,
You finally got one thing right- it was 1 and not 2 in the reference. I suspect that if you would concentrate as much on discerning spiritual truths as you do in your feeble attempts at attacking me, you might get more things right.

You see, it is GOD who justifies the UNGODLY. Now, if you wish to believe, and teach others to do the same, that the Cross is insufficient, and that God offers a salvation that does not offer assurance also, then you are going to be answerable to Him.

Again, your brand of theology offers no assurance of salvation whatsoever, and in fact, is completely replete with multipliciy of ambiguity as to how it is maintained. You offer only some vague, nondescript, and uncertain ideas that a person is "SUPPOSED TO DO SOMETHING!" Salvation is always presented in scripture as being UNTO good works that were before ordained that we should walk in them. No work of man is ever said to be salvific as that would violate the very definition of GRACE. God never contradicts Himself.

You cannot delieneate salvation with any of its ramifications and offer "0" explicit spiritual truths as to how it is gained or maintained.

It is COMPLETELY a WORK of God on man's behalf, and since you believe that there is a JUDGMENT TO CONDEMNATION for believers, you are going to have to answer to God for it. You see, the true believers will be judged only as to rewards, but those who present their WORKS, are doing so with the only result being how severe their eternal punishment will be.

"As many as received HIm, to them GAVE He power to become the sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His name;

which were BORN not of blood, nor of the will of flesh, nor of the WILL OF MAN, but OF GOD." (John 1:12,13)

I do appreciate your post as it can serve as a good example of exactly what NOT to believe and how satan attempts to rob believers of the joy of their salvation. If you keep going, you can touch all of the bases and then true believers can be even more sure of their salvatrion and will be better equpped to handle the false doctrines you have presented.

aw

We are both going to be answerable to Him.  I have no concerns over facing Him on this issue as it is directly from the Bible as I have shown with referenced verse while you have relied on statements of your own opinion alone.


There is no ambiguity – we are told to love God and our neighbor (just as I have shown in referencing these verses earlier) to fulfill all the law.  This together with our faith represents a proper acceptance of the gift.  We know it is not by faith alone as if I have faith without love I am nothing.

1Co 13:1-3  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Do you really think that if salvation was by faith alone that love would be greater than faith?

1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

There is no assurance because we can stop loving God and stop loving our neighbor and then we are left again with your solution faith alone, a dead faith the kind the demons have a tremble.


No that is not true that is just your claim, and again you don’t support it with scripture.

Here are some verses that say salvation is dependent on us accepting it properly through works.  I will wait to see if you can provide any verses that support your position.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21, Rom 2:13

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28, Mat 25:31-46

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17, Mar 10:17-19, Mat 5:19-29, 1John 3:15, Luke 18:18-22  

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  

Be Humble
Matt 5:3, Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, John 12:25, Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6, Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4, Mat 19:14, James 5:20, 1John 3:20-21,  

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 4:17-18, 2 Thes 1:8, Heb 5:9, James 1:21

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22, Matt 24:13, Mark 13:13, 1 Tim 2:15, 1Ti 4:16, Rom 2:7  

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12, 1Ti 6:19, Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21, Mark 16:16, John 3:5
   
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12, 1 Cor 6:11     



 

I am not saying that man’s works are salvific anymore than you are saying our faith is salvific.  We are discussing how to accept the free gift properly, not whether faith alone or faith and works save us because we both know neither scenario does.   Once again you try to steer the discussion off of the real topic to distract and make your case appear less weak.


If that were the case – if God does it all for us then we would not even have to believe and we would all be saved – and we both know that isn’t true, so your last statement is wrong and so is what you base on it.


I never said that in fact I spent a good section of my last post pointing out that there is no condemnation for believer but there is a judgment.  It may seem like a subtle difference to you but I am sure if you think about it long enough you will see it eventually.


Again you claim this but offer no proof that the judgment will be ONLY for rewards.  If you want to pronounce doctrine you should be prepared to offer scripture to support it unless you expect people to take your word instead of seeking the truth in God’s.


Yes we have to “receive Him”.  He stands at the door and knocks (Rev 3:20) but we have to open the door.  We are involved in our own salvation.   We have to believe and using your definition - we have to believe in our heart – we have to internalize it, write His teaching on the fleshy tablets of our heart (2 Cor 3:3).  We must make them part of our life to truly have believe in Him.  We have to accept all His teachings not just a limited subset and that means we have to obey the Gospel (2 Th 1:8 and 1 Pet 4:17).

More than that we have to accept Christ in all His roles, not just as sacrificial lamb.  We have to accept Him as Lord and King and shepherd and that means obey and follow Him.

Michael,
Just exegete Ephesians 2:8-10, "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

aw

But using that within the context of Iakovos (James) we know that we are saved through faith, but not through faith alone.  It is always with works.  

So I'm curious about something... I've been following two threads over the last few days, both referencing salvation as either completely unmerited, unearned, and totally given by God OR attainable only by the works that one does.

I can't even begin to debate at the level of discussions taking place through these threads but I do have a few simple questions that I'd like answered. I'll preface by saying this: I believe there is only ONE truth, it can't be both ways. Salvation is either FREE or it ISN'T.

Question #1 - Was the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, in itself, sufficient enough to buy my salvation?

Question #2 - Was I saved the moment I confessed my sins to Him, believing in Him, asking Him for forgiveness and salvation? If not, go to the next question...

Question #3 - Of all the works listed as necessary to attain salvation, how many or for how long must I do these before I can be saved?

Question #4 - How exactly should I tell Jesus that his grace alone isn't sufficient but that I will complete HIS incomplete work by adding to it with MY works?

I've read over these two threads over and over and I keep getting this feeling of hurt and sadness when I think that somehow, someone out there, is trying so hard to accomplish good works, not from the gratitude and love they have for Him but instead because they are believing that if they do enough, work hard enough, they will attain the grace and mercy that was already there to begin with.

God Bless,

-Samson

If a person isn't sure he's saved, all he has to do is ask God to show him. Then once he's sure he knows Christ personally, then he will KNOW he's saved.

1Jo 5:4   For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, [even] our faith.
1Jo 5:5   Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 5:10   He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11   And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12   He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13   These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

that ye may know.........eido (perfect, active)
1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
b) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in
English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been
completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be
repeated.

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or
performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The
boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.

that ye "have".....echo (present, active, indicative)
1) to have, i.e. to hold
a) to have (hold) in the hand, in the sense of wearing, to have (hold) possession of the mind (refers to alarm, agitating emotions, etc.), to hold fast keep, to have or comprise or involve, to regard or consider or hold as
2) to have i.e. own, possess

The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases
this corresponds directly with the English present tense.

IF one is born again, then they have overcome the world, and that overcoming (victory) is faith. Who has that faith and thus overcomes? Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

The one who believes has a witness IN himself (the Holy Spirit). Whoever does NOT believe on the record given by God of His son is a liar.

What is the record? That we HAVE BEEN GIVEN
 didomai (inceptive aorist, active, indicative)
1) to give
2) to give something to someone
a) of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
1) to bestow a gift
b) to grant, give to one asking, let have
c) to supply, furnish, necessary things
d) to give over, deliver

ETERNAL (aionios, from age to age, forever)
LIFE (zoe; life a) of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature)

John is emphatically declaring that those who believe (by faith) have been saved (action once completed and does NOT need to be repeated) and given eternal life.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. ;D

A wonderful and accurate presentation. Thank you for taking the time to share.

aw

Thank you AW.

Just a final comment.

God says "come, let us REASON together". That means that He wants us to use our faculties, our ability to learn and discern, and to rely on some things that He has established in this world...and among those things are logic.

In logical argumentation, there is a thing called Occam's Razor (or Ockham's). It is an analytical tool that, like the razor it is called, cuts precisely and accurately.

Simply put, Occam's Razor says that if there are two ways, or arguments, both of which arrive at the same conclusion, the the simpler of the two arguments is not only the most precise, but the most well defined, the less ambiguous, and thus the most logical (and true).

We keep hearing and seeing presentations of what constitutes salvation that involve (1) simplicity defined as by faith (belief, pistueo) alone. That is how it is so stated by Paul with "ye are saved by grace thru faith....and not of works....". It is also stated as such by Jesus several times; "he who believeth (pistueo) on me shall NOT die, but have eternal life..."

(2) a combination of belief (pistueo) PLUS a continuing series of actions that constitute a "proof" of that belief, but with a question mark about actual salvation until the moment of death. Salvation is then conditioned upon and dependant upon the successful completion of a number of poorly defined activities (taking up your cross, works meet for repentence, etc.).

Both arguments arrive at a similar conclusion....eternal life (salvation).

Apply Occam's Razor, and see what is left.

I've BOOKMARKED your web page- will get back later. Would you agree with "Walking in the Spirit" as being about the same as "Living BY MEANS OF the Spirit?"

aw

How can salvation not be a free gift? How in the heck can we earn it? Good deeds do NOT come from man because if a man isn't saved first, then his works are to glorify himelf rather than to glorify God. How is that good? Good works come FROM the love that God gives us, not to EXTRACT love from God. They come from the thankfulness, gratitude, and joy of our salvation! Otherwise, they're done to make US look holy so that God will love us. Who of us is holy or will EVER be holy? How many works, or deeds make us holy? What is the magic number? Who says? That is Jesus's whole point! If we could become good on our own, we wouldn't NEED Him at all! Jesus says; "No one is good but God alone." Thinking we are good enough to be saved is not only the sin of pride but then we couldn't receive His forgiveness!! That is why salvation comes first. THEN out of gratitude come the fruits of the spirit which are joy, love, peace, hope, patience and self control. Those fruits are to GIVE BACK what He gave us. They come from genuine love and produce genuine love inside us. They are then not done to show WE'RE holy but out of thankfulness from our hearts. Then there is no selfishness, only genuine good works.

Thass right!!



Amen!


Say it again!!!



Thass right!!!!!!


Preach on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Gal 5:22   But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23   Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24   And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25   If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

I would say that is a good rendition and semantically correct as long as living and walking are considered synonymous.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that, not of yourselves: IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: not of works, lest any man should boast"  (Eph. 2:8,9)


"Giving thanks unto the Father, (1) who hath made us meet [fit] to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: (2) who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, (3) and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: (4) in whom we have redemption through His blood, (5) even the forgiveness of sins"  (Col. 1:12-14)


"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power [authority] to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"  (Jn. 1:12,13).


"Where is boasting then? IT IS EXCLUDED. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.  Therefore we concluded that A MAN IS JUSTIFIED BY FAITH, WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW"  (Rom. 3:27,28)


"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised [a deed of the Law], CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING... CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are justified by the Law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE"(Gal. 5:2-4).

What you said is quite true - but only partly true.  Scripture also teaches us that salvation comes to us at a great cost.  Taking up our cross to follow Him shows us there is great responsibility in being faithful stewards of this great gift.  We can't do anything ourselves to attain the gift of salvation, but we have the choice to yield to or resist the perfecting work of salvation in our lives by His Spirit.  After all, salvation is only the beginning - becoming Christ-like is our ultimate goal.  

That is moving a little closer to the doctrine of ETERNAL SECURITY, rather than ASSURANCE of salvation- which is okay. There cannot be any WORK, regardless of how good it may be; eg., water baptism, that plays any part in salvation. Salvation is then said to be "UNTO good works that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10, example.)

What stops the GOOD WORKS is usualy the teaching that we have some major responsibility that if we do not peerform we will lose salvation. We then come to rely upon the flesh and it is impotent to do anything good.

As we WALK IN THE SPIRIT, we will do those god works.
aw

AMEN BROTHERS AND SISTERS!

Salvation is by God's Grace through FAITH ALONE!

Salvation is not a loan taken out with an installment payment due from men. Jesus Christ was a perfect sacrifice on The Cross, and our Lord and Saviour paid it all for you and for me. Salvation is a GIFT by the Grace and Love of God. For men to accept this PERFECT GIFT is to accept God's Grace through faith. We are quickened and translated at that moment, and our hearts are SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, setting us apart as a purchased possession of HIS. There is no credit, no payment, no repossession, and no foreclosure. It is a GIFT from GOD, a PROMISE from GOD, and a GIFT that GOD will not repent of and take back. What we do for HIM in love and appreciation is NOT a loan payment. What we do for HIM in love and appreciation is to make our JOY in HIM more full. Anything we do for HIM because we feel that we must or to enhance our standing before men is BURNED UP.

Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by grace ye are saved;
Colossians 1:13  Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
1Pe 3:18  For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

YES!!!, we can and should have 100% assurance of Salvation. Salvation means that we are already members of THE BODY OF CHRIST, and no power in the universe can remove us. For the brand new babe in Christ, they are quickened, translated, and SEALED right then. As an analogy, Jesus could put a stamp on us "PAID FOR IN FULL - BELONGS TO JESUS CHRIST!"

Love In Christ,
Tom

I Cor 10:12; ...let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

What the Bible says is that you must have faith, and do good works. if you have these, then you have true faith...not the other way around.

The whole of the Pauline Corpus is a rousing urgency unto ACTIONS on the part of those to whom he is writing, that they should be DOING what is needed to be done, that they should live their salvation, and not lose it - It is unto the unseen warfare with fallen angels who are the princes of this world that we are called into battle, in a contest that requires us to put on the full armor of God, and faith, humility, chastity, vigilance, and obedience form the core of our weapons against these IN CHRIST...  Outside of Him, all is vanity.  The door to within Him is repentance, then baptism...

It seems some would say that Paul contradicts James. But he does not. He totally is in agreement with James.  What several posters seem to be saying is that Christ died only for some.
Christ actually redeemed the world, literally. He brought life and light to a sick world.  His resurrection brought eternity to ALL MEN.  What Christ accomplished was for the benefit of all men.  What some seem to be saying then is that all are actually saved.  Man has no responsibility yet, I'm sure they will say, man will be held accountable.

Saying man is saved on faith alone and using other texts which says that we must strive for perfection would mean that we are indeed already perfected. If that be the case, then I don't see any visible signs of perfection from anyone. It seems to go against reality.

To be saved by Grace, through Faith, gets the believer in the door. He has separated himself from the unrighteous, those not believing. It clears the way to be justified, opening up the way to healing, to attain righteousness, and union with Christ. Becoming Righteous is the goal, not the means. Becoming Righteous is salvation for man. It is appropriating the finished work of Christ.
The error of those who want to ascribe this to the 'works of the law' is what Paul was always contrasting and which Christ accomplished for us. We do not do works of righteousnes apart from His Grace either.  Everything is wrought by Grace. If Grace would be removed, we as humans would be annihilated.  We would cease to exist.
In Him, our Creator, we live, and move and have our being. All Grace.

Paul was quite aware that he was on a journey and he gives us no hint that he was guaranteed salvation simply by believing. Quite the contrary.

That bit of realism is why we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.  Faith is ALWAYS active, daily, even more than that.

"The Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we our children of God."     (Romans 8: 16)


Christ will also become your first love.      (Matthew 10:36)