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Allah or Jesus?
> >
> >by Rick Mathes

> >Last month I attended my annual training session
> >that's required for maintaining my state prison
> >security clearance. During the training session there
> >was a presentation by three speakers representing the
> >Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who
> >explained each of their belief systems.
> >I was particularly interested in what the Islamic Imam
> >had to say.
> >The Imam gave a great presentation of the basics of
> >Islam, complete with a video. After the presentations,
> >time was provided for questions and answers.
> >When it was my turn, I directed my question to the
> >Imam and asked: "Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but
> >I understand that most Imams and clerics of Islam have
> >declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the infidels
> >of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which
> >is a command to all Muslims, they are assured of a
> >place in heaven. If that's the case, can you give me
> >the definition of an infidel?"
> >
> >There was no disagreement with my statements and,
> >without hesitation, he replied, "Non-believers!"
> >
> >I responded, "So, let me make sure I have this
> >straight. All followers of Allah have been commanded
> >to kill everyone who is not of your faith so they can
> >go to Heaven. Is that correct?
> >The expression on his face changed from one of
> >authority and command to that of a little boy who had
> >just gotten caught with his hand in he cookie jar. He
> >sheepishly replied, "Yes."
> >I then stated, "Well, sir, I have a real problem
> >trying to imagine Pope John Paul commanding all
> >Catholics to kill those of your faith or Dr. Stanley
> >ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to
> >Heaven!
> >
> >The Imam was speechless.
> >I continued, "I also have problems with being your
> >friend when you and your brother clerics are telling
> >your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question.
> >Would you rather have your Allah who tells you to kill
> >me in order to go to Heaven or my Jesus who tells me
> >to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants
> >you to be with me?
> >
> >You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his
> >head in shame.
> >This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a
> >well known leader in prison ministry.  Needless to
> >say, the organizers and/or promoters of the
> >'Diversification' training seminar were not happy with
> >Rick's way of dealing with the Islamic Imam and
> >exposing the truth about the Muslim's beliefs.
> >I think everyone in the US should be required to read
> >this, but with the liberal justice system, liberal
> >media, and the ACLU, there is no way this will be
> >widely publicized.

Sura 2:62 (http://www.sacred-texts.com/isl/pick/002.htm) Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

The Quran does not appear to treat Christians and Jews (and Sabaeans...I don't know who they are/were, samaritans perhaps) as "unbelievers" or "infidels", but calls  them the peoples of the book.

Just a reflection.

For the story to be true you'd need a remarkably stupid Imam.

This site throws severe doubt on the accuracy of the story:
http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/rickmathes.html (http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/rickmathes.html)

Also as the site points out, the view of an individual iman is not even vaguely comparible with the Pope saying anything - every islamic congregation is independent of every other independent islamic congregation, and the view of one imam is no more representative of the views of all Muslims than the view of one pastor of an independent church is representative of the views of all Christians.

What a jerk. Hey guys, lets take our anger toward Muslims out on a simple cleric who is trying to help you to your job better. What an self-righteous pig! Yeah, this Rich guy really needs to reassess his priorities if disrespecting other faiths and shaming someone who might have in an other situation but open to salvation is something he is bragging about. I think it is safe to say what ever chance that Cleric had of being saved is all but lost, due to the ornery attitude of Rick Mathes. Thanks a lot, Rich, we don't have enough Muslims who hate Christians as it is! Keep up the good work, maybe Bin-laden will add your name in his next tape! ::)

You must be a muslim or a roman catholic. (samething)

And you must be a muslim or a roman catholic. (samething)

Neither, actually.

But I don’t see how they are the same thing. I have never heard of that before, but I would like to learn more about it. Can you please post some more info on this Theory, maybe a link or a book. It sounds like it would make for an interesting read, in the very least.

tibby how do you realy feal dont hold back brother ;D ;D

First, I want to read this "muslims are catholics" Theory, sounds so interesting ;D

ROFLOL :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Tibby, every true Christian knows the roman ctholic religion (started in the eary 300's)started the man-made religion the muslims follow (in the eary 600's). WAKE UP! :)

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Actually it was started when a man, despised by those in his city, had a vision.  Interestingly enough, this man had alot of contact with the Jews of the area.  Also interestingly enough, he took many Jewish beliefs, and along with the "revelations" from Allah, developed a system of religious practice, which he then enforced in the city that had rejected him by the edge of a sword.  Interesting how he derived much of his understanding from the Jewish populace and not the Catholic religion.  Read up on the truth Bro.  It can be...interesting.

 ;D  I think new religions get started everytime Christians stop loving their neighbor.  It's the "if you can't join 'em, make up your own" principle.  Or if their behavior is so terrible that you can't stand it, make up a new religion.  I think Christians need to take responsibility when other religions get started.  What it means is that the current religion is severely failing and Satan gets someone so fired up about it that they start something new.  Hey, all who come in the name of Christ, the only way to reverse the damage is to live out His love.  That's all he requires of us.  The Battle is the Lords.  

"Islam Reviewed" by M. Ali, born and raised Muslim is good book to understand the deep split between Muhammadism and Christianity. "Jihad" will play a major part in leading the world to Armageddon, and in this book, the references of the Koran to killing infidels are all listed and plain to see.
The scism between those of Israel and those who follow Allah is blood deep, going all the way back to Isaac and Ishamael - the sons of Abraham. Isaac was the son of Sarah, the son God promised Abraham and through his seed the world would receive the promise, while Ismael's mother was Hagar the handmaiden's of Sarah - Abraham's son of the flesh. Of Ishamel, the father of all the Arabs, the Bible says:

Genesis 16:12  And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

This many thousand year old description of Ismael is accurate for today, as we see Jihad spread world wide before us everynight on the TV news.

Scary aint it.  

If I remember correctly, he also had contact with decidedly heretical christian sect, but never with orthodox christianity.

Do you even know what Jihad means?

One more confirmation that ebia is not a Christian. Jesus says He is the only way to the Father. Again, you disagree with Him. That also confirms even more for me that most people who stand up for the catholic church aren't Christians. Do you even know what you stand for, ebia? It's certainly not Christ.

Says who.  Where have I said otherwise?

I don't recall.  But then, I don't recall what I ate for dinner last night either!   :D

Way to spread the love sister... ::)

Can't help you with that one I'm afraid.

I was thinking the same thing. I went back and forth from page one to 2 several times, thinking I had missed something. Normally, while I don’t agree with Heidi, I see where she gets her comment from, but this time, I can’t for the life of me figure out what she is referring too! Maybe it isn;r a reply to your cooments at all, Ebia, maybe she is just making general statement about you. ::)

Yeah, Allinall, Heidi is 10 pounds of love in a 5 pound bag ;D

This Site: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

shows what you need to know.

We know all about Chick Publications. They have been exposed numerous times for there lies and slander. If you are ever in a situation where you need to make a Priest laugh, then the knowledge you gained from Jack Chic might come on handy. If you want some Anti-Catholic Recourses, I would go with some more credible sources.  PM Petro, he can give you plenty of good sources for the errors in Catholic Doctrine. He has plenty of good info for you.

It literally means a "great striving" that includes remorseless and relentless worldwide aggression.

Sura 9:5 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans when you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait (ambush) for them in every stratagem (of war), but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is oft-forgiving most merciful

Sura 9:29 Fight those that believe not in God (Allah) and his apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of truth [even if they are] of the people of the book [ie Jews and Christians], until they pay jizya [ humiliating tax] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued [enslaved]

Sura 9:123 O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers....

The fastest way for a new poster to loose all credibility - quote Jack Chick.

These all talk about fighting, not about Jihad.  I could pull similar quotes out of the OT, and I could pull much more "pro-people of the book" quotes out of the Koran, as well as anti-war quotes to equal any in the bible.



Real Muslims (as opposed to the fundamentalist idiots who blow places up) know that the real Jihad is the struggle to be what God wants you to be.

Who is Jack Chick?  

Ebia One thing I do know is, if you dont like him, he must be good. Do you know if he has a web-site?

I DONT KNOW JACK CHICK or is it jack sh#@&* ;D

You need some soap for your mouth. Your Bad

We do have a JAIL thread here  SHEESH !

Some one call the donut shop....

Actually, what you have posted just now, dissed my beliefs, calling it "slander." Lay off. Not only thiat, it's true. I bet no one has even read that stuff. Historically it is all true. The catholic religion has lied for a long time, The Pope means nothing well.

I am very sorry for offending you. It was never my intention to attack you beliefs. I only wanted to note that Jack Chick isn’t the most credible source for such beliefs. Please don't take it the wrong way. I read that tract. In fact, I used to own that specific tract in print. Lies. Allah is based on the same God in Judeo-Christian beliefs. Mohammad was tough the Jewish mythos as a child. Now, Jack’s seems to have a good grasp of the religion of the ancient tribal peoples of the Middle-East, however, that has nothing to do with Islam. Anymore then the beliefs of the ancient European effects Christianity. He never received any backing when he first founded Islam. The  early Muslims where persecuted. The fact that they used “Allah” in reference to their Early Gods have nothing to do with the use of Allah as their single God now. Allah is the literal translation of God. We in the West use the term to differentiate between the Judeo-Christian God and the Muslin God, but to a Native speaker, Allah is just “God.” I hope you see what I am saying, Jack Chick’s logic is flawed in several areas. On top of that, if you handed that tract to a Muslim, he would either be offended by it, or laugh at it. His whole method of argument is to aggressive. Great propaganda for those on his side, but it would never work to persuade the audience he is writing against.

Now, what where you saying about The catholic religion lying for a long time, and the Pope meaning nothing well? Why don’t you PM me with more on that, as to not spam the board with more catholic debate. We can finish it up thru PM.

i know that was pushing it . sorry :o

I don't even know who Jack Chick is. I just found the site, and it was toward my beliefs, and was acurate.

It might agree with your beliefs, but it certainly isn't accurate.

is this where you anti- catholics learn about catholics?

Is a4u jack chick? ;D ;D ;D

this is a quate from his sight

Does Jack Chick hate Catholics?
Quite the opposite. In the mid-1970's, when he first began to understand what Roman Catholicism really teaches, he knew it was unscriptural. He also knew that to speak out against it would be unpopular and hurt his publishing company.

After much prayer, he made the decision that, no matter what it cost him personally, he would publish the truth that Roman Catholicism is not Christian. He did it because he loves Catholics and wants them to be saved through faith in Jesus, not trusting in religious liturgy and sacraments. He paid a price for that decision in many ways, as priests and nuns entered Christian bookstores screaming and making a scene, demanding that the store owner not stock Chick tracts. Some "Christian" media have even refused to accept advertising from Chick Publications, fearing any "controversy" that might hurt their cash flow.

But God has been faithful (as He always is) and has protected Chick Publications over the years. Jack Chick has made it clear that if he had it to do over again, he wouldn't change a thing. The letters from so many Catholics who have read Chick's anti-Catholic material and have gotten saved carry one theme: "Thank you for loving us enough to tell us the truth!" Those precious people make it all worthwhile.

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me." The Muslims go through Mohammed which means they are not worshiping the true God but a false one. Therefore, The Christian God is NOT the same as the Muslims god. We can only access the true Father from belief that Christ is God's Son. Knowing Christ is how we know God! Jesus said; "Now this is eternal life; that you know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He sent." Virtually everyone knows ABOUT Christ but few know Him personally. He said; "Narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it."

1. This isn't true.  Mohammed is a prophet in the Muslim's eyes, not a savior.  They go straight to God for their salvation.

2. Their failure to recognise Christ could be indicative that they worship a different God, or it could be indicative that they worship the same God but are badly mistaken about at least one aspect of him.   Since most of what they know about God is true, the latter seems a much more reasonable supposition.

Your "proof" falls as above.


If this were the whole story, Israel and the prophets could never have accessed the Father.  

ebia, you need a lot of help.

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><

We all do.

ebia-
You seem very content in your world.
It must be nice to think that no one needs Christ to obtain Salvation.

Jesus said that He is the way, not a way.

What did Ebia say that doesn't match up with that statement?