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It Seems our houses of worship have gotten so sanitized that as this holy war against Non-Muslim beliefs heats up, there is no real outpouring of a call to action. At least the Muslims show their ferver and rise to the ocaision. This is a challenge to our faith and we should not expect any government to resolve this without strong active Religious support. Our Religious leaders should be speaking out to the Muslim leaders and we should be active in weeding out possible threats and supporting strong action. If we don't ,what does that say about our faith in G-d when tough times are upon us. Are we fair weather friends that talk a good game. Our Pastors, Rabbi's, Priests, have been too politically correct and not real teachers. I'm always amazed when I see biblical prophecies demonstrated before me such the part where everyone will have to choose sides (no fence sitting).

Because if they speak spiritual truth concerning anything the godless consider political, they can lose their tax-exempt status.

Sad but true.

Christians are to be the salt of the earth.
Sins are like wounds.
Salt rubbed on a wound is painful. Salt will also bring healing.
Many Christians don't want to inflict "pain" on someone, even though it will encourage healing.

If people hear the word sin mixed in with words like abortion, homosexuality, adultry, fornication, lying, stealing, cheating, etc. then it will be like rubbing salt on their wounds.
It makes them uncomfortable aka convicted.
Conviction doesn't make for a very seeker friendly church.

Many churches are far more concerned with the size of the congregation than Spiritual maturity of the congregation.  :'(
Therefore, many pastors feel that they need to make sure they are not stepping on toes by speaking out against sin.
They water things down so that the adulterer feels comfortable coming to church while still living the life of sin.

I have a co-worker who is living with her boyfriend.
They attend the largest church in the area.
He is a deacon in that church.
She leads a Bible study for new Christians.  
They also lead one of the youth groups.
They feel no conviction about their lifestyle.

I'll take my small church where the head elder was an adulterer and after counseling he continued in his sin and was removed from his position in the church.

We have our struggles with sins in our church, but at least our pastor and elders aren't afraid to face them head on and deal with them.

I am in complete agreement about the lack of strength and conviction among our "leaders", or at least the ones who are well known.

Keep in mind that when someone does say something, they immediately get "crucified" by the liberal media, the politically correct academics and the wishy washy religious crowd.

Cases in point:
Franklin Graham said that Islam was NOT a religion of peace but of war.....after being excoriated by just about everyone, he did not retract the statement or back down.

Jerry Falwell said that Mohammed was a pedophile. After only one day  of derision, he retracted his statement.

Paul Crouch of TBN said: send me money so I can buy more TV stations.

T. D. Jakes said: God has blessed me with a Rolls Royce, just like He'll bless you when you sow seed into His kingdom.

and so on, ad nauseum.

"for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears..." :'(

This is why I prefure a small, home style church. Which reminds me we meet Wed., at 7:00 pm for bible study, this week.  :D

 ???  I'm glad to see that several people agree, but what are we doing about it ? Shouldn't we be holding our Religious leaders accountable to stand up and show they believe in what the Bible or Torah (first 5 books) says , not the politically correct sanitized parts. It's easy to preach, "Love thy neighbor" but is that why we were blessed with over one thousand pages of information going back to the creation and forward to mankinds future ? The knwledge is given so it can be taught in full. How will anyone recognize spiritual or supernatural events if they don't even know about fallen angels and there existence today. How much ridiculing would a Pastor get when he prached to a professional progressive enlightened audience ? Probably a lot , but even that was predicted.  Let's start demanding more from our leaders and be more outspoken in public.

 ;D  Maybe if our religious leaders didn't have to worry about financial support they would take firmer stands on things.  Biblically, and in our day, religious leaders have sent millions astray because they need financial support and they are willing to say whatever they need to to keep the money rolling in.  Even the biggest issues of legalism in America are about keeping a person productive.  Most of the reasons people are kicked out of church is because they practice sin that makes them unproductive.  But if you practice a sin that makes you have more money to contribute to the church, then everyone looks the other way.  In essence, I think that are many "Almighty Dollar" worshippers out there.  They also worship God too, but they may have the "Almighty Dollar" before God.  

Another thing that makes religious leaders go astray is that suddenly, through their religious leading, they've accumulated wealth.  Then suddently, if they were to love their neighbor as themselves, that would mean they would have to share their wealth--as in spend it on their neighbor like they spend it on themselves--but they don't want to do that--so then they make up all these new rules that discriminate between which neighbor is worthy of love.  You'll notice the least productive neighbors are the least worthy of their fellowship--sometimes it's just in deed and not in word, but mostly, it's actually in their teachings to discriminate against this neighbor or that.  What it boils down to is the religious leader doesn't want to part with their money that they've collected.  We shouldn't be shocked to hear this though.  That's what the religious leaders in Jesus day did too.  They've been doing it down through all ages.  Even back in Isaiah's day and even now, false prophets and false teachers.  They'll say anything they need to say just to keep an extra buck or two.

I have a small rule of thumb--"I can tell by your house and your car who your gods really are . . . "  A religious leader should be the first person to see to it that there are no starving people in the world.   ;D  

But also, we have to consider the Pastor knows the people he's pastoring.  She or he may be trying to work things out with the people they are pastoring.  Becoming perfect takes time--all the time we are on earth we will be sinners and the good pastors know this.  The key is to get them in the worship of God enough that the Holy Spirit does the convicting.  If a person attends church with loads and loads of sin, either the Holy Spirit is just no there or the Holy Spirit is moving at the pace of the purchased Bride of Christ's heart, the body is Christ is the Bride of Christ and she was purchased with a price--can anyone imagine our Lord forcing Himself on her?????????????????  Nix legalism!  The Lord gives us choices and we can give him this part of our lives and that part of our lives.  The pastor has to teach right and wrong yes, but it's not so much the pastor's job to stand around and convict people.  That's the job of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit knows when.

Another thing is that some sinner will jump all over another sinner because of someone else's sin, and then turn around and ignore their own sin--that person that may have just as much sinning going on.  We have to pray for wisdom of the pastors.

many churches are about money and/or size.

but that's  nothing knew--the "deceitfulness of riches"--and that temptation, is common to all, both in and out of the church.

some of the churches in my area have or are growing phenomenally--at least outwardly, with nice buildings, new additions.  And i'm in a rural area where real estate prices are depressed, unemployment is high.

really makes one wonder.  so much immorality going on around--lots of divorce.  but yet the churches seem to be "growing".

but one local small church--not known for being liberal, etc.--just recently ordained a lady minister, and published it in the newspaper.  not affiliated with any main denomination or anthing.

so i'm thinking people generally are just simply going blind.

literally--and it's wierd to think about it--all the people, it says there in Genesis of Sodom, and Lot--surrounded the house, and were apparently homosexual.  ANd what did the angels strike them with?

Blindness.

Quote Symphony:

but one local small church--not known for being liberal, etc.--just recently ordained a lady minister, and published it in the newspaper.  not affiliated with any main denomination or anthing.

Symphony is the lady minister ebia?  :)

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Somebody doesn't know what they are talking about, on lots of counts.  But that's not news, is it?

Thats the first time you said something about yourself, that I can say AMEN! :)

Brother Love :)

I guess I missed something in the last few posts, some inuendos went over my head.

This topic wasn't meant so much to start condemning everyone as much as I was hoping to gain some insight first. Secondly, I was hoping to see if there is some potential building where we might finally start seeing some Christians and Jews speak out internationally as a group and put pressure on Governments as well as the Fanatical Religious Leaders. When I see Governments afraid to offend fanatical Islamic leaders because of their holiness or because of the Mosque they hide in, I realize secular governemnts can't win without our strong stand. Those Muslim leaders need to hear from other people who pray and honor G-d. They can respect that and have some concern that perhaps the Lord is listening to us as well. They certainly do not fear this life as much as the after life.

Perhaps because of continual criticism coupled with lack of prayer,  little encouragement when they do take a hard stand,  and poor financial support from their flocks?
Lack of prayer is probably the most important. :(

Oklahoma Howdy to SeekingTruth,

You saw a private exchange that was not directed at you.

Back to the thread topic:

I think this is a very complicated topic. One can look at a huge variety of beliefs stemming from their religious beliefs. The individual congregations of churches may agree or disagree with the leanings of their pastor. I'll give you a few examples that are real, and they illustrate the complexity of this topic.

Some Christians don't believe in voting because they think they are involving themselves in worldly affairs.

Some Christians could not be a combatant, regardless of the cause. I'm not being critical, but I wonder if they would be able to protect their own families.

Some Christians don't believe that any Christian should hold a public office, be a soldier, be a police officer, or hold a variety of other public related jobs.

Many Christians have a problem with being blunt and telling it as it is. I have the opposite problem.  :D War is an extremely difficult topic for most Christians, even for those who are not leaders and not in politics. However, I think that the majority of Christians would fight and die for a lengthy list of just causes, certainly including preservation of freedom and protection of family.

For me, there are two remaining thoughts. (1) Men, including our religious and political leaders, will cause problems throughout the world. A political statement or religious statement could plunge the world into a Holy War that would be much worse than Word War III.  (2) The prophecies of the Holy Bible will be fulfilled according to the time table of Almighty God, regardless of what men do or don't do.

When considering these two thoughts, there is question that remains: Should Christians keep fighting and standing up for what is right, regardless of the fact that this world will become more evil by the minute? The answer for me is YES. The answer for other Christians may not be so simple.

There is Love In Jesus,
Tom  

Amen!!

Somebody thinks I'm ebia??   Hehe.  that's a good one.

ebia is not me--tho I'd be happy to have her around.   :)



love that aussie accent... ;D

Appreciate the responses. Yes there are many different reasons for Chrisitans to say silent but I dont think that the majority of Christians belong to a denomination that is against any fighting for good reasons. Yes, Jesus showed us how to be forgiving and look for the best in people, but that did not rule out condemning sin and fighting against evil. In fact we have a duty to be soldiers in helping to spread this message and fight against those who use force to keep people from making their own free will choices. Christians do not use force to convert people (not recently anyway) but should use force to protect their rights to learn freely.
I beleive too many Christians have only heard watered down teachings and have lost the passion and understanding of the Bible actually tells us. Why do we have emotions like anger if there is no good purpose for it. We all appreciate emotions like Love.Could our emotions help guide us and help us to understand our Creator (in his image) ? His Love and patience has certainly given me hope many times in my life. His anger against sin and evil certainly should help us to understand how we should feel and help us stand up in his name. The same as we would for our own family if attacked. Islam is attacking our beliefs and telling us not to follow the Bible but follow the Quaran..

In the last days those Christians who never take sides will be forced to take sides. Perhaps that time to choose is now or very soon.

Peace does not allows come without first a fight. !!! Our nation was founded on that principle along with belief in G-d.

Hello SeekingTruth,

That is an absolute fact. In the meantime, all Christians varying from wimpy to bold will be criticized. We are already seeing the escalation of discrimination and persecution of Christians by the hour. I, for one, will at least try to stub the devil's toe along the way. AND, the LAST way is either quickly approaching or already here.

Love In Christ,
Tom