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Total newbie here!  I am just trying to get a census on what people think about this issue.  Its a big deal at my church and I am sorry to say that I am at odds with most everyone I know who is a Christian.  It is sort of like a holy grail that can't be questioned where I am from.  It would be refreshing to know that I am not alone.

krakenfurst,

Welcome to the forum,

As you can see it is becoming a big issue as the day drweth near.

I hate  to say it, but, the reason why it is, is because there is much speculationa presumption drawen by those who come forth with unbiblical conclusions.

I know one thing, and that is the The Judge of all the earth, will in the end do what is right, this we can be assured of.

The biggest problem I see with the Pre Trib theory, is that Christians who come to Faith in Jesus, are left out of the wedding union to Christ.

Since the Pre trib doctrine teaches that the church is taken out of the world and the wedding of the Chruch (the Bride of Christ) is married to Christ), never mind, they agree others, who are also, considered Saints and members of the body of Christ are left to go throught the great tribulation.

Another problem with this theory is that scripture words and verses, are twisted stretched, and re-interprted to mean something other than what common sense and  sound biblical hermeneutics would teach the feeble brain.

The third problem is that the theory, has the rature occuring before the two signs that scripture has preceding the event (2 Th 2:3).

There is an apostasy first, followed by the revelation of the man of sin, the Son of Perdition, before the coming of that day then can and only then can the rapture occur.

Then they totally ignore the 30 day difference between (1290  days of of Daniel 12:11-12 and 1260 Rev 12:6), at which time the abomination of desolation is set up and then another 45 days to the end of the age which makes it a total of 1,335 days from the Mid-Trib to the time of the Lords physical return to the earth.

You can see if one reads some of these threads from these pro-pre-tribbers, they make no mention, neither explain how they fit these days into the theopries, they just simply follow their favorite teachers lead and use 1260 days to get to the mid trib and 1260 to the Lords return, but clearly, if one reads Daniel's words carefully, at;

11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12  Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The days of the great tribulation cut short of Mat 24:21-22, is at 1260 days, but the Lord does not return until 1335 days from;

from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, of Dan 12;11.

So, the Pre Trib rapture I am afraid is not an axiom, drawn from a solid study nor understanding of scriptural teaching.

The end times biblical teaching is a very difficult to undertsand prophetic subject, and we should not allow speculation and theory to enter into it, it should be looked at carefully and methodically, consider spiritual with spiritual, precept must be upon "precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isa 28:10.

And much prayer, only then can we be taught doctrine by Gods Spirit.

I am impressed that it is not a secret that cannot be understood, since Jesus himselvf promised us we could know all things, which are given to us of God, and the Angels own words to Daniel say;

Dan 12
10  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


There are no scriptures which prove a secret coming of Jesus, on the other hand there are many more scripturtes that prove the rapture occurs at His Second visible, physical  coming.


Blessings,

Petro

spirit2,

I have never heard of that verse.

The one you probably refer to, is;

2 Cor 5
5  Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6  Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7  (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9  Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


Depending on what version, one uses, will determine the way the verse is finally interpreted.

Hope thgis helps...


Blessings,,
Petro

theres only one way to find out IMO :)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened,
there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake
those days shall be shortened.

How's that ? SHORTENED ? I gave Pedro this  http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=4;action=display;threadid=2261;start=msg34586#msg34586  
answer back in january, and he still comes back for more :)

Amen

I think so; the elect will endure the persecution of the Beast in Revelation 13; and then be sparred from that persecution by the gathering of the elect (Matthew 24), otherwise they would all be martyred.

And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
In your patience possess ye your souls.  (Lk 21:7-19)


Jesus told His Apostles;  there shall not an hair of your head perish.

Yet the scriptures tell us, they all died for their faith in Jesus and the testimony of His Word.

There seems to be many Christians today that want the best of both worlds, to be saved, and be kept from tribulation, I wouldn't be so quick to teach, the pack and an leave doctrine.

Rather, Watch and Wait.................In your patience possess ye your souls.

There is nothing hidden, Jesus has told us all we need to know, the rest is by FAITH, which shall be turned to sight in that day.

And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.  Lk 18:42



Blessings,

Petro

spirit2,

Amen,


Here is a couple of questions.........for anybody...that cares to answer them.

Can anyone answer, what the difference between these two days; is??

Pre Tribbers, would have us believe, these are two different days; separated by 7 years.

Does it appear, according to Paul's writing, that this is a credible point??

1 Th 4
13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

The coming of the Lord occurs on a certain day (vs 4:15), according to Paul it is the day of the Lord (vs 5:2)

They use the rest of 1 Th 5, to shore up the pre trib rapture teaching up, note;

that Paul is speaking to the same audience, using language whioch includes them in the following verses;

3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4  But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5  Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6  Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.


Is this true or not true??

Notice what Luke says, when quoting Peter on the day of pentecost, about, the day of the Lord at Acts 2: 14-36.

Pre Tribbers have a theory built of all sorts of speculation, while we see, God simply speaking straight forthly, and accomplishing everything that is written which has been foretold by the power of His Word thru His Spirit.

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.  Isa 55:11

Gods word is clear how he accomplishes His Will, by His Spirit.

God has said it, and it will be accomplished, there will be no secret, anything, Jesus will continue serving at the altar not made with human hands in the heavenlies Heb 8:1-2, until the fullness of the gentile be come in. Rom 11:25-26.

His coming is not eminent, because this fullness of the gentiles among other prophesies must occur before that Day comes..


Blessings,

Petro

K, the concept in question is the time being shortened so that the elect would survive:

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Thus, not every Christian in the tribulation period will be martyred. Ofcourse many will be:

Revelation 6:9-11
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?" Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.


Obiviously martyrdom is a large part of the persecution of the saints.

Mark 13:20
If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.


This AmM while reading during my morning time, I read;

Rom 8
28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

And I remembered the Jesus when He said;

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. (Mat 20:16)

I then remembered eddielee's verse which he had posted, here at Mk 13, paralled to Mat 24:22.

What is amazing is that not all who are called are chosen, yet for the chosen sake the elect, those days will shortened, not for any other reason.

Then we go on to read;



31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

The ALL in this verse is still speaking of the chosen elect.

Are not these members of the church, His body??

If it were not so, I would agree with a pre trib rapture, but since it is clear these (TRIBULATION SAINTS) are members of the church and therefore members of the same body of Christ, there can be no RAPTURE nor WEDDING FEAST UNION of the SAINTS to Christ, before the appointed time.

I am afraid, dispensationlists, end and begin dispensations where they decide, not where the Sovereign Creator ordains it.

His wrath does not begin on the earth until the last gentile is saved, and sealed by His Spirit.





Blessings,

Petro

The "trumpet" of 1 Cor 15:52, is the same "trumpet" of Joel 2:1, and Zephaniah 1:16..

When Paul wrote this letter to the Corithtians, from Ephesus (c.56 AD), the Letter of Revelation was not yet written (c. 81-96 AD).

So the trumpet, of which Paul wrote to the Corinthians, could only have been understood, in the context of the OT prophetic scriptures. They would know that the trumpet of verse 52 would be refering to the "Day of the Lord" and His Second Coming.

There never was in the history of the church a teaching which supported a coming before the "The Day of the Lord"
it wasn't until some began to add to Gods Word,in the 17th century,  that a pre Second Coming event was introduced, and is now, so popular, that know doubt Holywood, will make a movie soon, of the most recent fictional writings of the rapture.

However, for us, who live in this generation, we can because ,of the complete word of God, look forward and accurately place the timing of the "trumpet" and the "rapture" at the same point in future prophetic timeline, yet to be fulfilled scriptures, and it appears it will occur within our generation.


Watch and Wait should be formost on our minds.

Blessings,

Petro

According to Josephus, the actually siege was only about 6 months, and Titus actually said it was only with the help of GOd that he took Jerusalem as quick as he did, so the days were actually cut short.
   I really don't see anything future in revelation, as I have stated the beast from the sea was given power by God to attack the beast from the earth, Jerusalem. 12 tribes are mentioned, and there were 2 nations: 10 tribes of the House of Israle (scattered among the gentiles) and the House of Judah ( 2 southern tribes of the House of Judah).
   I see revelation as simply the historical record of Christ as the 2 witnesses, and the 2 beasts represented both houses of Israel, with the "Harlot" beast of the earth being destroyed by the gentile army of the beast of the sea.
    This appears to be more biblical than some futuristic "holocaust" of the world in the future. It is the destruction of a "holy city" by a gentile army. This is what is represented by the "fullness of the gentiles". This took out the synagogue of "satan" that Christ and Paul were preaching against. I just can't see this any other way.

 If that's true then Christ already came from Heaven with multitudes of His saints and destroyed evil. We couldn't have missed that my friend. Jesus said all eyes would see His return, all the dead and every living person would be judged, some into everlasting glory and others into everlasting damnation. Which one are you? Jesus also said Hid second coming would be unmistakable, as the following verse makes clear...

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  

 No my friend, Revelation is now beginning to unfold, and is a future prophecy reserved for those of us who were alive in the end times. When are the end times? Well, Jesus prophesied the fall of Israel in the following verse...

 Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

 Here's an historical fact that may interest you. When archaeologists excavated the temple, they discovered that the destruction was so complete that there literally was not one single stone left upon another. The reason being, was the roman soldiers knocked over every stone to get at the melted gold that had seeped between the stones from the heat of the fire.

 Jesus also told us when the end times would be upon us in the following verses...

 Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:  


 Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.  


 Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  

 In this parable, the fig tree represents Israel. So when Israel fell back into Jewish control, which it had not been for two thousand years from the time the Romans destroyed it, that generation would not pass until His return to earth.

 Israel became a "partial" nation" in 1947...

 In a Pan-Arab Conference held In Cairo in 1938, the Arab-nations unanimously pledge to prevent a Jewish state in Palestine. In 1939, Britain released MacDonald White paper, which dumped the Balfour Declaration of 1917 into the dustbin and subjugated the hope of the Jewish people ever having a homeland to the consent of the Arab nations. A ray of hope however, opened up for Israel, when the United Nations after the World War II voted 33 to 13 in favor of homeland for the Jewish people on November 29, 1947. They were given 7,847 square miles, 16.1 per cent of the British Mandate of Palestine, a much larger portion of 37,737 square miles, constituting 77.6 per cent having earlier being given to the Arabs by Britain. Not minding the fact that the Arabs had got over three quarters of the British mandate of Palestine, they still mobilized for war and invaded Israel a day after Britain pulled out of Palestine in 1948.

 Israel gained full control of Jerusalem, the holy city in 1967 after fighting off an unprovoked Arab attack.

 So, according to Jesus, the end times are here.

 I suggest you read math 24:1-51. Here Jesus sets out exactly what will happen in the end times.
 

How the heck do you know whether Christ was witnessed as coming with all of His saints in the clouds. Paul was warning his followers the end was soon and their redemtion draws near. He wasn't speaking to "us". Put yourselves in their shoes back in that "age" while you read the bible. Paul was even telling his followers "not to get married".
   The bible is centered on Israel and Jerusalem all the way thru Paul's and the apostle's epistle's. I have read the bible many times thru, believe me, and all I see is the fulfillment of God's promise of pouring out His spirit on mankind and the bringing together of all peoples, nations, tongues and tribes together under one King.
     My blessed hope has already happened, as God came to me last year and I live for Christ everyday, and knowing that God and Christ indeed fulfilled their promises in the bible, makes the Word of the Bible more believable. Since I never read other books, my focus has always been just on the bible, nothing else, and what God has shown me thru it, is to help bring others to God thru Jesus Christ knowing that we will be resurerrected upon death and reign with Him forever.
   That is what I believe and I couldn't be happier.

 My friend! How can you honestly believe you have not only read the bible many times, but also have a firm, undisputable grip on it's entire message in just one year?

.

 Because the Bible says it...

 Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

  Jesus said all eyes would see His return, both living and dead.

 Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
 

 In the following two verses Jesus is telling His deciples that they would not see Jesus in their lifetime, and not to believe anyone who told them Jesus had returned.

 Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.  


 Luk 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see [it].  


 Luk 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after [them], nor follow [them].  


 Luk 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one [part] under heaven, shineth unto the other [part] under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

 Jesus is telling us that His second coming will be a never before wittnessed event, that the entire heavens will be lit up with His brightness. It will be unmistakable.


 Consider the following verses...

 Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.  

 When did this happen?


 Rom 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.  

 And this, when did this occur?


 Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.  

 Has this hapened already?



 Read these following 4 verses and tell me when and where these events unfolded.

 Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  


 Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all [men, both] free and bond, both small and great.  


 Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.  


 Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.  


 Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which [sword] proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



 These next five verses have definately not hapened my friend because if they have then God is a liar and we have been cheated...

  Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  


 Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  


 Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.  


 Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.  


 Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.  

 Look at these three verses. Has anything even remotely like this ever been recorded in our history books?

 Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  


 Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  


 Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  



 
 As I have show, Jesus told them they would not live to see Him return.
 Also consider that two thousand years in God's timespan is like two of our earth days, so the end was in fact near at the time of Jesus.

 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.  

 Revelation is a prophecy of end times. The prophecies are clearly outlined, certain events must unfold and in exact order. These events have not come to pass, but, we are at the very end of time as the prophetic picture prooves. Jesus gives us all the information we need to know the signs.

 Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  


 Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Well put BRONZESNAKE!  
InHimITrust-wrote-- My blessed hope has already happened

Don't forget 2 Thessalonians:2:1-4
(1) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, (2) not to become easily unsettled of alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the DAY OF THE LORD HAS ALREADY COME. (3)  Don't let anyone decieve you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (4) He will oppose and exalt himeself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.  

And if He has already come back, where is the new heaven and the new earth and the 1000 year reign with His Kingdom?

Only nowadays do we have the technology to fulfill prophesy spoken of long ago.  

We are instructed to look for His return and keep our robes pure and clean until He returns.