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Me and some friends where debating about Messianic Judaism today. It was interesting because we got a lot of the same answer, but a lot of difference reasons for it! What are your thoughts on it? It is the way to go? Did God free us from such things when Jesus died? Did God free us from these things because we are Gentiles? It is a Charismatic fad? What do you guys think?

Hello?  :-\

Messaianic Jews are Jews who want to retain their cultural heritage but have been born again and converted to Christiainity. It is not a fad. They're now Christians because they've been born again like any true believer.

Actually, a large amount of the people who attend these churches, at least in America, are not Jews by birth...

And the Jew thing was a fad in the Charismatic movement some time ago. Some of them even joined Messianic Jewish churchs for that reason.

I'm not talking about false Messianic Jews, I'm talking about true Messianic Jews. A true Messianic Jew is a Jew who's converted to Christianity.

Well, we I have met more "False" ones then "true" ones in my lifetime.

In my experience also Messianic Jews have been largely Gentiles.

I attributed it to feelings of guilt over the holocaust and an unpleasant desire to appropriate victimhood myself.

In the gentile Messianic "Jews" I mean.

Well, in the states, and I guess in the UK, too, Messianic Jews are nothing more then Evangelical Protestants who have been tricked into fallings for the flawed logic that "Jesus was a Jew, so we all have to be Jews." or the ever popular "The bible is a Jewish book."  ::)

Hi!   :)
Thought I would jump into the discussion as I was into Mess Judaism once not too long ago.

Actually, Tibby is right on the mark.  It is Christians [about 70% former charismatic/word of faith] that have embraced a Jewish lifestyle by celebrating the feasts and festivals, the 7th day Sabbath, and following the Mosaic Law [Torah].  Sometimes this movement is also called Hebraic Roots.

 Mes Jud used to be about Jews who converted and some Mess congregations started out that way - it has now become an epidemic of Christians who wannabe Jews.

So it becomes necessary and consuming to be Jewish. The customs and traditions of Judaism literally take over your lifestyle.  This is based on the fact that Jesus was Jewish, and taught Hebraically, therefore, we should be like Him.  He followed Torah and so must we.  In order for Him to be the sinless sacrifice, He would have had to be Torah observant.

Let me give you a bird's eye view of some of the areas where this has all been heading in the last few years.

*  There are many [into the hundreds] Mess congregations all over the US, some in Canada, UK and other countries, some in Isra'el also. There are also a growing number of home fellowships and 100's of individuals who have no congregation to attend but "belong" to messianic internet ministries, many of these ministries have "real" congregations as well.  

*  There are two main Messanic camps - Messianic Isra'elism and Messianic Judaism.  Mess Judaism believes that the Jewish members have a greater position because of bloodline, therefore can be full members.  The "gentile" believers cannot hold positions in the org, but can contribute.  Mess Isra'elism holds that all believers are prob Jewish bloodline somewhere as Isra'el was dispersed and the "lost tribes" scattered all over the world, so therefore Jewish bloodline does not make you "better". [comment:  so why is everyone trying to be Jewish?]

*  Mess Isr is for the most part a Two House theology - believing that the Jews and the Gentile believers will one day unite "two sticks as one" [Jeremiah 18].  So becoming Jewish means the Jews will become jealous because of the Torah Observance of "gentiles" and the Jews will flock to Jesus because of this.  The House of Isra'el/Joseph/Jacob/Ephraim and the House of Judah are the two sticks. [that is a VERY simplistic explanation].

*  Most of the Messys believe that the NT was not originally written in Greek, but probably in Hebrew and Aramaic [there are no Heb or Aram manuscripts that predate the Greek - even though some Messy "scholars" try to prove it].  This means that the NT as we have it has many errors and therefore, if we had the original Hebrew we would see that Torah observance is commanded of God.  Paul was also Torah observant and taught that we should be.  The verses that we apply - Jesus being the end of the Law, etc. only mean the "curse of the Law" and this is why He died, not to do away with the Law.

* Many Messy congregations and leaders have "translated" their own Bibles and are flooding the market with them.  Perhaps the most well known and marketed right now is the Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern.  This Bible mixes in some Hebrew words for English with a glossary in the back to translate.  Most of these new versions use a different name for God and Jesus because they believe that the English words are incorrect and some believe blasphemous.

*  The Scared Namers, also part of the Messy movement, claim that the Bible was translated improperly and should have used Yahweh or a variation of that for God, and Yeshua for Jesus [there are well over 50 pronunciations for each of these Names and the numbers continue to grow].  SN believe that unless you use a specific Hebrew name for God and Jesus that He does not hear you and that you are not saved.  Some don't go quite that far, but the number is growing that the Hebrew Names are more correct.  Many Messys are getting rebaptized because they fear they were in error when using Jesus Name.

*  The Name issue is a biggie.  Many Messys hold that Jesus is a pagan name and this is the most obvious reason to have a Bible using the "correct Names".

*   Because of the issue of the NT primacy, many in the Messy movement are falling from the truth, proclaiming that Paul is apostate and is the anti-christ.  What follows is tragic - the denial of Jesus as God.  Also, the denial that the NT in the greek primacy is infallible and inspired.

* Jewish mysticism is also making tremendous inroads in the whole belief system of Messy.  It is more commonly known as kabbalah.  Most Jewish traditon and custom has roots in kabbalah.  What is proclaimed is good kab and bad kab.  Bad kabbalah is satanic, good kab is "spiritual" and necessary to "understand" the Bible properly.  kabbalah, whether "good or bad" is not of God and comes from the same source.  Some of the teachings are that God is greater and lesser - Jesus being the lesser God.  Also, the Holy Spirit is believed to be feminine - or the "mother spirit".  Again, this is a most simplistic view of kabbalah.

* Last, but not least - many are turning from Jesus, recanting their salvations eventually and converting to Judaism.  Very grievous.

Shalom, MalkyEL

MalkyEL,

Thanks for the info. You seem to have covered what i thought i was seeing in my limited view of MJ.

That one statement shows the Satanic deception of trying to mix Law and Grace. Paul fought those same Judaizers in the first century, and we still have sects like the Seventh Day Adventists who are unable to  truly comprehend the Finished Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the meaning of the New Covenant, in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

It is,as you say, grievous, that well-meaning Hebrew Christians were deceived into reviving Moses after Christ had already set him aside for something infinitely better.

This should be a lesson to all Christians to get a proper grasp of the meaning of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. What we see on too many Christian forums is a lack of real understanding about the fundamentals of the faith.

Sower wrote:
This should be a lesson to all Christians to get a proper grasp of the meaning of the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. What we see on too many Christian forums is a lack of real understanding about the fundamentals of the faith.

MalkyEL:
I totally agree.  This lack of understanding comes from no solid foundation in the Word of God.  It is disheartening to see the number of Christians who do not have proper understanding of the Word because there is no love of His truth and diligent study.

This is why Messianic Leaders and teachers have gained so much momentum in gathering people into the movement - they can twist the Scriptures to mean what they want and no one questions it.

Sower some times we agree  :D  Amen

Ditto that one.

Thanks for the info, malky. Great stuff! Are there any good sites for futher readings?

you can go to

http://www.seekgod.ca/index.htm

 go up to the top of the page and hit research
then scroll down to Hebraic Roots and you will have plenty of documented facts and information.

If you have questions, please ask me - if I don't know the answer, I can find it for you.  ;)   8)