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"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever should believe on Him should not perish bur have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"For by grace through faith are you saved and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God." (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Fot it is with the heart that man believes unto salvation.(Romans 10:9,10)

Summary: 1. Salvation is for WHOSOEVER will, 2. It is a free gift from God requiring only that one believes in the Lord with the heart, and 3. It is received apart from any works whatsoever.

Would these suffice? If not, then why?

aw

"What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?  Can such faith save him?"  

"Faith by itself, if not accompanied by action, is dead."

James 2:14 and 2:17

Because the scriptures say they are not.  Yes the things you mention are part of what is needed for salvation.

But just as they are not the complete set of scriptures, so too they are not the complete message of the scriptures.

The following verses list other things we need to do to be saved.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28  
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24  
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4  
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1John 3:20-21  

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2  
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16
Rom 2:7  

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19  
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5  

So unless you are going to claim there are multiple ways to be saved we must find a way to harmonize them with the verses you quoted.

The way to do that is to recognize that to believe something in ones heart means to fully accept that message and internalize it - make it part of your life, such that the actions of your life and that belief are inseparable.  That is how works and faith become inseparable, such that works perfect faith and faith bears the fruit of works.  No chicken and the egg issue here they are mutually dependent on each other and they both in turn rely on God's grace to ever even get started.

I assume from your answer that some type of WORKS must be added for salvation. If that is your belief, then please stipulate what those good works actually are.

aw

Then I would assume from your reply that one must GO AND SELL ALL THAT HE HAS AND GIVE IT TO THE POOR. Scripture also says that we will be saved THROUGH CHILDBIRTH. So, is getting pregnant required?
Since the gospel is declared by the Lord and His apostles to be SIMPLE, how about boiling down your theology for salvation into a description that a child can understand.

Appropos to that, Paul summarized the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8. How does your compare with that?

aw

Darby:

It's interesting that this verse is brought out times without number to somehow prove that (1) the Bible contradicts itself or (2) salvation is based upon faith + works.

The target audience of James are those who "profess" to be saved but do not show "fruits meet for [appropriate to] repentance", i,e, good works.

When we consider the entire context of James 2, we see that GOOD WORKS ARE A TEST OF FAITH -- "By their fruits ye shall know them". Those who show the following characteristics while claiming to be saved are false "professors", not true "possessors":

James 2:1-9: Those who show partiality and "respect of persons" within the church,

James 2:13: Those who show no mercy to others

James 2:14-16: Those who show a false concern for the plight of other brethren, but do not lift a finger to help them

James: 2:17-20: Those who proclaim a false faith with their mouths, but do not really believe in their hearts to the point of repentance

James 2:21-24: Those who fail to see that Abraham's genuine faith caused him to trust God to the point of willingly sacrificing his son.

"FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD" means that those who are truly saved will show forth the fruits of their salvation through good works.  The absence of good works will prove that they had no genuine faith. Thus in the end this false faith will not "save" that person thus he will not be "justified", since true faith leads to a transformed life which includes good works.

I don't think we are in any disagreement Sower.

Which is more important for breathing, inhaling or exhaling?  Both are probably equally important, and the latter naturally follows the former.  

I am not arguing either side.  I too believe that with sincere faith, good works naturally follow as an expression of that faith.  But if there ain't no fruit, then the faith ain't real.

One can be a FRUIT INSPECTER, but only God can look on the heart. Salvation is always declared to be UNTO good works, while works for salvation are specifically excluded- not of works lest any man should boast. (Eph 2:10)

You guys still haven't answered the question- would those scriptures suffice?

aw

Aw is right. Works are a RESULT of salvation, not a PRE-REQUISITE.  As Paul said in Romans, 3:20, "Therefore no one will be declared righteous by oberving the law in his sight, rather, through the law we become consious of sin."

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets hang on the 2 greatest commandments of loving God and loving our neighbors. That is why all we need is God's forgiveness and the rest takes care of itself! Instead of "trying" by my own effort to love my neighbor, all I have to do is confess that I do NOT love my neighbor and God's love and forgiveness brings me to love my neighbor! If he has forgiven me, then how can I not forgive my neighbor? That is how Christ fulfilled the law for us. It is finished. His love, mercy, and forgiveness is what we give to others. It leads us to not want to covet, steal, murder, dishonor our parents, not want to bear false witness, and all the other laws given to us. As Paul said, if we have not love, then obeying the law is meaningless. That is why we cannot do good works without first being saved. Good works COME from the unconditional love Christ gave us on the cross!

I was also thinking about the THIEF ON THE CROSS. All he could do was BELIEVE on who the Lord was.

The Eunch also was told to just BELIEVE WITH THE HEART.

I am attempting to point out the simplicity of the gospel for salvation...it ain't rocket science and even a little child can understand it perfectly.

aw

Not to beat a dead horse, because I do see what yall are sayin' but I just don't want performing good works to be trivialized.

I would say that your faith is made known by good works.  Yes there are exceptional cases like the crucified thief, or the guy who believes as his plane is crashing down (one must question the sincerity of examples like this).  But it's probably a good idea to keep those cases as exceptional cases, and let them be that... not use them as blanket cases.  

"It is by our actions that we know we are living in the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before the Lord"

1 John 3:19

"But if anyone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need and refuses to help - how can God's love be in that person?"

1 John 3:17

Our works are JUDGED as to REWARDS. We will have some wood, hay, and stubblr, and then some gold, silver, and precious stones. The question is, "What constitutes the latter?" The question of SALVATIOn has been forever settled and it is ALL by GRACE.

Paul said, "I LABORED more than you all, yet it was not I but the GRACE of God given unto me." Works performes in His power and for His glory are the omly good works. We have NOTHING to offer of merit and no one dare appraoch the cross with something in the hand to offer.

aw

AMEN Brother Aw!

Our good works should be the result of a grateful heart. Jesus Christ was sacrificed on the cross in our place by the Grace and Love of God. God's Grace and GIFT could never be earned by us. If Salvation was by works, then it is no longer GRACE. If Salvation is by GRACE, through faith, then it is not by works.

Our good works are part of our testimony to others, and they are part of our joy and appreciation for what Jesus did for us. Our good works will only be recognized by God if they are done in joy, charity, and love. Good works will be burned up if we do them because we feel that we must, for our own status, or for our own glory.

Love In Christ,
Tom

aw, I'd be interested in your view on what free will is.

I don't think salvation is by works, but I believe that works are inherent of salvation.    

The wind isn't made known until we witness the effects of it.  You can't see the actual wind blowing, but you know it is there by the change is brings, or the objects it moves.  Our faith may not be known to God until He sees/feels the effects of our faith.  What good is that faith if not put into action?  





   

Are men doing good works to glorify themselves or to glorify God? It is imperative that one asks himself those questions. Again, all we have to focus on is that we have been forgiven. If every single day we get up and know that we are forgiven, then the works will automatically come out of that thankfulness. The joy of our salvation, the thankfulness, hope, peace, and solid foundation of the fact that we are loved leads to wonderful works! Then it isn't a duty or chore to show we're good little boys and girls, it's coming from the Spirit whoch produces joy, hope, peace, thanksgiving, discernment, and genuine love. Each day is then an incredible gift from God!

Fair enough, so long as we clearly understand and teach that JUSTIFICATION is APART from works, and is solely because of the merits of the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.  This is precisely where the Reformers and the RCC parted company.

The finished work of Christ means the FINISHED work of Christ. Neither the believer nor Mary can add to that one iota of merit:

"Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH  [not faith + the works of the Law + the intercession of Mary] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ... Much more then, being now JUSTIFIED BY HIS BLOOD  [not the sacrament of water baptism], we shall be saved from wrath through Him... for the wages of sin is death, BUT THE GIFT OF GOD   [period] is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 5:1,9; 6:23).

The reason why so many stumble over salvation -- eternal life -- is because they forget, ignore, or disbelieve that salvation is GOD'S FREE GIFT   to the one who believes.  A gift is a gift is a gift is a gift...

That sums everything up.  As some have posted, works equal rewards.  Rewards do not equal salvation.  The rewards we receive we will lay the feet of Jesus in thanks to Him.  Rewards are our gifts back to Him.  Salvation is His gift to us – no questions asked.  We seek rewards to glorify Him.  Rewards we can give back to him, for they are not a gift to us.  You don’t return a gift.  Salvation is a gift – it is non-returnable.  

AMEN! brothers and sisters.

Salvation is a GIFT!, full and free by the matchless Grace and Love of Almighty God.

We accept or reject this GIFT when we make our decision about the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Accepting the GIFT means that we have faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, that we are lost without HIM, that HE died on the cross in our place, that HE arose from the dead on the third day, that we have asked HIM for forgiveness, AND that we have asked HIM to come into our heart as our personal LORD and SAVIOUR forever.

In terms of our sanctification, justification, redemption, and Salvation, there are only two conditions: (1) We are seen in and through Jesus Christ and the Seal of the Holy Spirit is on our hearts; or (2) We are lost, undone, children of darkness, and on our way to hell.

Thanks be unto GOD for HIS unspeakable GIFT!!, Jesus Christ, our LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER!

Love In Christ,
Tom

I must say one more thing. It would be an insult to Almighty God for any man to believe they had something worthy to add to the precious blood of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.

The ONLY thing we are worthy of is worshiping at HIS feet and giving HIM all praise and glory.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Tom,

I don't believe we are even worthy of worshipping at HIS feet or of giving HIM praise. Jesus is the only reason we are even able to elevate praises and worship to HIM. We aren't worthy yet he demands it of us. But HE can't even look at us without Jesus as the go-between.

I guess I'm just trying to say, somehow, is that there is nothing that we are worthy of when it comes to God. Not even of being alive. It is all because of His grace and mercy. He alone is worthy...

-Samson

Hi,

The Question of salvation has been answered. It is GRACE through FAITH!
Salvation is NOT of WORKS.
It is a one way street. Works are the manifestation of the  SALVATION attained, Not a requirement to attain it!

GOD BLESS

The wind isn't made known until we witness the effects of it.  You can't see the actual wind blowing, but you know it is there by the change is brings, or the objects it moves.  Our faith may not be known to God until He sees/feels the effects of our faith.  What good is that faith if not put into action?

Works are not for GOD to see ou faith, they are for us see as a testimony of the GLORY of GOD in our lives.

Oklahoma Howdy to SMartinez1984,

AMEN!! - I agree completely. What we deserve is to die on a cross for our sins, but Jesus Christ suffered and shed HIS blood in our place. Worthy was a poor choice of words on my part. In fact, we are worthy of nothing except punishment. This should give us even greater joy when we understand the Grace and Love of Almighty God.

Love In Christ,
Tom

"I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called," Ephesians 4:1


"Only let your manner of life be worthy[1] of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, " Philippians 1:27

"And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so as to walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy," Colossians 1:9-11

I'd say brother that we can be worthy.  Yet I will also add, my friend, that it is by Jesus that this worth is even possible and it is by Jesus that God would even consider us worthy in the first place.  

We deserve death and damnation.  We're given life, relation, the inheritance of Christ, and worth.  Blows my mind, and bends my knees.   :)

Blows my mind, and bends my knees.

Wow! Another deep one!  :D

I agree!

No works need be added for salvation.  Salvation is a free gift.

But we are instructed in scripture to accept that gift through faith, a living faith which reuires works so it is perfected and not dead.

Those works are works of love (the golden rule - treating another as you would want to be treated).  God desires mercy not sacrifice (and not mercy towards Him - He doesn't need our mercy - mercy towards one another).  That is why love is the fulfillment o the law.  Not the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.

So specifically we need to do what those scriptures I referenced tell us to do and we need to love one another as He has loved us.  Otherwise we have not properly accepted the gift.

This analysis would be good if it did not ignore the many times in the book of James where he specifically talks about salvation.  The message of James is not one of judging another or even your own salvation based on outward appearance.  In fact he spends a good amount of time telling us not to be judgers of men.  It is about works and faith being inseparable.  There is no chicken or egg debate here.  

In your doctrine I would ask you how long can faith exist without these fruits before it dies?  A month?  A day?  A millisecond?

Besides this error you fail to recognize that works do more than prove a living faith, they perfect that faith.   The results of something cannot perfect that thing.  

Finally you fail to recognize that repentance is from a greek military term meaning about face so it is a turning around of ones life (not just mere mental change of mind).  So repentance is works and it preceeds faith.  You must repent before you can have faith.

So we see works are more than just fruits - they also perfect and proceed faith in accepting the gift.

We as humans have the ability to choose between good and evil, a little thing called free will.  Our knowledge of what is good and what is evil makes us unique in the animal kingdom (what makes us God's creatures?).  

Just having faith is a work unto itself.  When you begin believing with your heart and mind, it is an effort!  Faith comes to us by our efforts.  And work is effort, and effort is work!  

There are two kinds of decisions we can make in life: good (God's way) and bad (the other way).  When you choose to live according to God's will, at that moment, you have chosen one of two paths to take.  At that moment, you decide to no longer perform iniquitous works, and choose to perform good works.  Just the process of thinking hard and believing is a work!

I think I am being misunderstood.  Faith is work!  And working for the good is faith!

Eph 2:10 is talking about works aimed at meriting salvation, not works of loving response to the instructions on how to accept the gift.  We know this because the only way someone can boast is if they merited something.  Works don't lead to boasting, works designed to merit something lead to boasting.  Faith doesn't lead to boasting, but those who believe they are saved because their faith is strong enough to do the job are boasting - just the same as those who think they can work their way into heaven.


I hope you don't mean me - I have answered it I hope - though maybe you don't agree.

If you agree that I have answered your question I would ask you how do you see those verses I referenced.  What is your interpretation of each and how do they fit in your understanding of a salvation through faith alone - with no role for works what-so-ever?

Thank you Michael, you have articulated the idea well.  I still want to go back and harp on the little analogy about breathing; you inhale AND exhale.   ;)

I have covered this before but the thief on the cross did all those things covered by the verses I referenced earlier.

The following he did directly (for the rest of his short life).

Do the Will of the Father
Love God and Mankind
Keep the Commandments
Repent  
Be Humble
Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Follow Christ
Live a Godly Life
Be Converted
Emulate the Saints
Obey the Gospel
Control Our Words
Endure or Continue
Work Out Our Salvation

The following he did by intent or desire.

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
Be Baptized


Actually you added th word JUST, but more to the point we need to recognize what it mean to believe.  This conversion of the eunuch was after he had the message of the Gospel (that he could not understand on his own through sola scriptura) explained to him, and he had to believe with all his heart, not just faith but to truly believe in Him you must accept His message into your heart, internalize it make it part of your life.  It is not mere belief.  We also of course see that even the eunuch saw the necessity of Baptism (another work we are directed to do).  If it was strictly and solely by faith the eunuch would not have bothered with baptism.

Uh oh! Please do not tell me that the eunch's salvation exhibits baptismal regeneration? If you are, I will remind that there are no less than 146 passages of scripture that link salvation with believe/faith only- John 3:15 and 5:24 for starters. The folks who believe in baptismal regeneration, such as catholics, jehovah's witnesses, and the church of christ will usually respond by going down some rabbit trails on the meaning of the word FAITH. Those trails lead to zilch.

BTW, I also hope you do not believe that the cc catechism and/or oral tradition are necessary for salvation. People who do are as lost as the "goose in the whirlwind!"

aw

aw,

Faith is a choice, and choosing is an effort.  Pretty simple.  Faith isn't robotic; it's an effort made by humans endowed with free will.

"The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart"

Luke 6:45  

I would love to see these 146 passages you claim teach faith only as I have done extensive word studies of the scriptures for all the variants of salvation, save, saved, saves, kingdom of heaven, kingdom of God, justification, justifies, justified, condemned etc to see just what the Bible teaches and I have not seen a single verse that is properly interpreted that way.

I am serious - I really want to see your list.  I want to be certain I have not missed anything.



Nice little attempt at guilt by association, but I am sorry it is not a valid argument.

I guess your saying it leads to zilch prove it leads to zilch!?  NOT!

I will need more than you word to change the opinion that one has to have a proper understanding of true living faith for salvation before I abandon the idea.


No the Catechism is just an official statement in summary form of the doctrines of the Catholic Church.  The only way it is necessary for salvation is in that it expresses the truth contained in the Word of God which is how we learn about salvation.  The Sacred Tradition (since it too is the Word of God) is another way besides the Holy Scriptures that we learn of salvation.  It was after all the basis for the selection of the canon of the New Testament so it is partly responsible for us having the Scriptures.  So it too is necessary for salvation in the same way as the scriptures, though it is possible to be saved without ever having read the scriptures if one is witnessed to properly.


Again an interesting personal opinion - but one hopes you do not expect us to take your word alone on this matter.

I would ask you again - how do you see those verses I referenced?  What is your interpretation of each and how do they fit in your understanding of a salvation through faith alone - with no role for works what-so-ever?   Can you make them fit your doctrine of salvation through faith alone or do you just have to ignore them?

I'll make a deal with you - you provide me the 146 verses you claim show salvation by faith only and I will offer an alternative interpretation to them for you to consider.  In return you can offer me an alternative interpretation to the 46 I provided to you showing how they can be made to fit a faith alone doctrine.  That way I am not over burdening you with too much to do - at least in comparison to myself.  Maybe one of us will learn something.  Interested?

Here are the ones I referenced.

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28  
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22

Repent  
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24  
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4  
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1John 3:20-21  

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14  

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2  
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16
Rom 2:7  

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19  
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5  

I gave 2- John 3:16 and 5:24. "For by grace are ye saved THROUGH dfaith and that not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-10)

Let's see your response to these 3 before I go to the trouble of posting 143 others as, like I stated, the proponents of the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration always have some thrological rabbit trails they try and lead people down. One such trail is the continuous action aspect of the word BELIEVE, and thus at some point later on they must go through the ceremony of water baptism for salvation. A completely invalid argument. This is easily refuted by the past tense HATH usage; eg., HATH passed from death unto life by believing.

Additionally, please do not attempt to use such passages as Acts 2:38 and argumentation over the preposition EIS. Just address the above as a starting point plase.

aw

aw

aw

This is how Roman Catholic fallacy began and continues. The reason why the eunuch was baptized is because he was already "a new creature [creation] in Christ" and saw that baptism by immersion in water would testify to others what he had ALREADY experienced -- the new birth.

Philip also had [unlike modern evangelists] preached THE WHOLE GOSPEL, which is repent and be converted, believe and be baptized, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thoud SHALT be saved, he that believeth on the Son HATH everlasting life".  So Philip had repeated to the eunuch what the Lord had told the apostles "He that believeth AND IS BAPTIZED shall be saved" (Mk. 16:16).

In this statement the Lord was NOT cancelling justification by faith (which is taught in great detail in the book of Romans and Galatians) but the necessity of water baptism for those who are new creatures in Christ: "Buried in the likeness of His death, RAISED TO WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE" (Rom. 6:4). Baptism is death to the uncoverted life, and affirmation of the new life in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Roman Catholic Church still teaches the FALSE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMAL REGENERATION.  Do you believe it and teach it, Michael Legna?

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

These two verses are easily interpreted to fit into a doctrine of accepting the gift through faith and works.  Notice both say we have to believe, but they do not say what we have to believe.  For instance we would both agree that they do not mean to imply that we must merely believe that a carpenter named Jesus once lived on earth.  There is some hints at what needs to be believed.  In John 3:16 we see we must believe Jesus is the Son of God, and we have to believe Jesus was given (sacrificed) for us.  John 5:24 adds to these saying we have to hear (understand and take to heart incorporating it into our lives) Jesus’ word and believe in God the Father who sent Him.  So we see that even just these two verses show we cannot accept the concept of belief as mere faith in Christ in just His role as sacrificial lamb, we have much more to do to have true belief.  These verses alone show that and when we consider the rest of scripture we see that true belief entails so much more than  mere mental assent to the sacrificial act.


Eph 2:8-10  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast.   For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This verse is brought up often and when interpreted in isolation it sounds impressive.  But when you consider it in a consistent manner with all the other scriptures, you see that the verse does not refer to faith in isolation from works of the spirit of the law.  Works of the spirit of the law are based on love and are never done in an attempt to merit the gift, but to show our love for God.  But rather it talks about faith in isolation from works of the letter of the law in an attempt to merit grace and salvation.

If you read these verses carefully, you will see they are contrasting WORKS with GRACE.  They are not contrasting WORKS with FAITH.  We are saved by GRACE.  Faith is included to show that it is how we accept the free gift of grace and thus are saved.  This faith is once again an active faith.  Our works (those we might direct at earning our own salvation – which cannot be done) are then contrasted to grace.  Those works are not a part of the process of salvation, as we cannot merit salvation and thus we cannot boast of them.   But we would be wrong to boast of our faith as well, as it could never be strong enough to save us either, without the gift having been offered.  The works that are part of salvation (as much a part as faith) in that they are part of the proper acceptance of the gift are the works of love that Christ commands us to do.

Yes the gift is freely offered.  We must still accept the gift.  The acceptance of the gift is by faith and works together.  As James points out a faith without works is a dead faith and it cannot save.

The correct way to interpret this verse is that we are saved by grace, we accept that grace through faith (an active belief that includes works) the grace is a free gift in that we cannot merit it no matter how strong our belief is or how good our works are.  It is not of works (meaning a fulfillment of the letter of the law in an attempt to merit salvation) so we have no right to boast.  You will find that you can interpret all of Paul’s supposed anti-works writings in this way and thus provide a much more consistent interpretation of the Gospel message as it appears elsewhere from Christ and James for starters.


Wow that really is lazy of you.  All you need to do is type out 146 references and you won’t even do that to witness to others!?  That sure sounds like a lot of trouble, might take you all of ten minutes.  No wonder you have not put in the couple of whole hours it might take to offer alternative interpretations to the verses I referenced.


If that was the only argument in isolation it would not be enough but there are so many more points to consider as well as all the verses in scripture that tell us we have to do certain works to properly accept the gift.  Verses I have provided and you continue to ignore since you cannot make God’s word fit your doctrine.


No I will save that discussion until we are discussing Baptism specifically.
 ;D

First it is not a fallacy just because you label it so.  Second there is much more support for the issue of Baptism than this one discussion of the eunuch so it did not start here.  It actually started before the scriptures were ever written and hundreds of years before the canon (determining which writings would be included in scripture) was decided on by the Catholic Church.  So it started in the Sacred Tradition – those teaching passed on directly from the Apostles, so we know this is how they viewed the issue of Baptism – that it was one of great importance and necessity in relation to salvation.

The idea that Baptism is a testimony to others is more of the fruit inspector nonsense that makes men into judgers of men, and has no basis in scripture and certainly none here.


Yes Philip preached the entire Gospel including repentance (which is works) since it is a turning around of ones life, not just a remorse or a turning around of ones mind.   Conversion is a process so it too is an indicator of a continual daily picking up His cross and following Him – so it too is works.  And you have the last part right Philip simply repeats (in summary form the issues facing the eunuch – believe and be Baptized – believe with your whole heart – internalize the message of the Gospel – make it part of your life and be Baptized.


Yes justification by faith is taught in Romans and Galatians, but justification by faith alone is not.  

If the Lord is teaching the necessity (as you admit He is) of Baptism then it must be necessary for something.  Something must be lacking or taken away if we do not get baptized.   If we do not bring death to the uncoverted life through Baptism and if we do not affirm the new life then what happens?  If we are not Baptized what do we miss out on?   What is it necessary for if not salvation?

Can you answer these three questions?


Yes I still believe it and teach it, because the scriptures teach it.   So it is not a false doctrine and your saying so without putting out any effort to support this personal contention of yours does nothing to prove it is.

"Accepting the message of salvation and devoting ourselves to God through Christ and being baptized in water is only the beginning of our exercise of faith.  It is only the beginning of our obedience to God. It sets us on the way to everlasting life, but it does not mean our final salvation".

GOD BLESS

...and yet Christ Himself told us it was not in one of the very verses you asked me to interpret.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Notice how it refers to believeth on him that sent me in John 5:24.  That "Him" is not The Son but it is requiring belief in God the Father who sent Him.  That is why us appropriating the alien righteousness of Christ for our own, being merely imputed righteousness; does not begin to cover the instructions given with regard to justification and salvation.  Three of your supposed strongest verses to support your man made doctrine don't even say what you think they say - and still you ignore the ones I offered which actually say the opposite of what your doctrine espouses.

So you are the one who is either jesting or just not reading the Word of God carefully enough if you missed that.  

Come on Michael. Are you calling into question the TRINITY now as well? The Father and the SON are ONE and the Law of Procession is always operative.

I don't know where you are getting your theology(it sounds like some catholic school) but it riddled with misconceptions and errors. I say this not as a personal attack on you, but for your edification and admonition.

aw

I do not deny the Trinity, but the whole point to it is that there are three person's in one God.  So there are distinctions between believing in the Father and the Son and believing in the Holy Spirit.  Jesus Himself makes this point in Matthew.

Matt 12:31-32  Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

We see here that you can blaspheme against the Son without blaspheming against the Holy Spirit and vice versa, that is because they are separate persons in the same God.  It appears you are the one who does not understand or accept the Trinity.


And yet you have yet to show me a single misconception or error - unless I were to simply take your word for it.  

Try providing some proof along with your claims if you are truly concerned with my edification and admonishment, for as it is now your simple ranting claims of your opinions authority over mine is a personal attack.

I would still love to see these 146 passages you claim teach faith only because I have done alot of study on the subject and I have not seen a single verse that is properly interpreted that way.

I would also like to know if you ever intend on providing alternative interpretations to the verse I showed so clearly say other things are required for a proper acceptance of the gift.  I would really like to see that you don't simply ignore the Word of God but can fit the verses into your doctrine some how.

Any method you use to exegete the verse will result in one simple thing- BELIEVE the WORDS that Christ spoke. Christ is and was God, and for Him to instruct us to believe those words is the same as believing the Father. BELIEVE represents ALL that a person can do for salvation.

Let me clear this up for any lurkers or non-responding readers: 1. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. One hears or reads the gospel of the grace of God for salvation. (Romans 10:17) 2. This gospel is summarized in 1 Cor 15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died for our sins and was raised for our justification.3. One believes that with their whole heart. (Romans 10:10)

***THEY ARE BORN AGAIN***

It is BELIEVE/FAITH/TRUST in the PERSON of the Saviour of the World. It is not FAITH in FAITH but a PERSON. Believe on Him and you will be saved. If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved.

The point with the 146 passages was to emphasize that salvation is never contingent upon anything but believing in CHRIST WITH THE HEART.

aw

AMEN Brother Aw,

There are many people who are almost determined to add something to the blood of Jesus. These areas usually involve self-righteousness and/or good works. The only righteousness we have is seen through and in Jesus Christ. Good works don't save us or keep us saved, plain and simple. Many passages addressing good works are taken out of context and misunderstood. They are exhortations for Christians that our joy might be more full in many cases. They also address our conduct and testimony before men. Bearing fruit in service to HIM is a beautiful example of how a Christian's joy in Christ will most definitely be more full. Our fruit, testimony, and service also has much to do with building our strength in HIM. Our Christian walk obviously effects the quantity and quality of our personal relationship with our Lord and Saviour.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Yes but we must believe ALL the words that Christ spoke, not just some of them - so your own claim here disagrees with your claim below that "If all that I knew was that He died for my sins and offered me eternal life as a free gift, and I believed that with my heart, I would be saved."  You really need to make up your mind - do you need to believe the words that Christ spoke or just some of them.


Interesting claim you are making that you there is no difference between believe in Christ and believing in the Father.  How do you explain the Jewish rejection of Jesus and their acceptance of the Father?  There are many to this day who accept Christ and do not accept the Trinity.  Additionally I have already shown you from scripture (which you ignored) where Jesus Himself pointed out that blasphemy of one person of the Trinity was different than blasphemy of another person of the Trinity so the converse (belief and worship) must be as well.


You need to include yourself in this number since you have failed to respond to any of the scripture I have provided and in actuality you have failed to respond at all except through your personal opinion with no support.


But hearing doesn't mean let it go in one ear and out the other, it means hear and understand and take it to heart, internalize it and make it part of your life.  In this way your works perfect your faith.

Yes Romans 10:17 says we have to hear to have faith, but you neeglect to consider the verse just previous to it, Rom 10:16 where it makes a point that not all have obeyed the Gospel.  What was that? Obedience?  What does that have to do with salvation?  Nothing in your doctrine but everything in the true doctrine of the Gospel.  Lets see what happens to those who do not obey the Gospel like those in the verse you ignored by taking Rom 10:17 out of context.

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Flaming vengeance and judgement - sounds like damnation to hell to me.  Certainly doesn't sound like they are saved if they just believe and do not obey.


You see the Gospel summarized in 1 Cor 15 because you have a limited understanding of the Gospel.  That chapter makes no claim to being a summary of the Gospel, it is just your interpretation.


Yes we must take the message to heart but this is not just a deep conviction you only feel - but to take something to heart means you bring it into your life.  True belief is not a living faith until it has works to go along with it - until then it is just a dead faith.


No one is saying it is faith in faith.  But it is more than just faith in a Person, it is faith in the Person and Him who sent Him and His message.


That is part of it but nowhere in scripture does it say that you can ignore Christ or deny Him as your Shepherd, King and Lord and these roles require us to follow Him picking up our cross daily (not just once in a one time decision but DAILY).


So does this mean that you cannot or are unwilling to provide these 146 verse you claim exist?

A claim never emphasizes anything until it is backed up with some proof.

Michael:

If the Roman Catholic Church preached and believed what you have stated above, then there would be absolutely no argument, since what you have stated is Bible truth.

At the same time, if you believe this, then you must also reject the Catholic teaching on baptismal regeneration, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism. You can't have both. So have you made your choice, or do you still believe that Mary somehow has to augment what Christ alone could and did accomplish?

What I stated above is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.  You have just been misled by those who wish to spread hatred and prejudice.  

I do not have to reject baptismal regeneration, sacramentalism and sacerdotalism because they are part of the instructions Christ gave us for properly accepting the free gift.  They are not added to it, they are our loving response to it.  No different than our response of faith.

Grace freely given, faith freely decided, works freely done.

If it was just grace then all would be saved.

If it was just grace and faith then we would be saved by a dead faith.

So it is all three the gift and our twofold acceptance - just as we were taught by Christ.

The Catholic Church also does not teach that Mary in anyway augments what Christ did.  I don't know where you got that (maybe from a misunderstanding of what the Church means by the terms coredemptrix or something) but that is not the teaching of the Church and never has been.

It is sometimes asserted that James is in conflict with Paul on the question of the relation of faith and works.  James declares that "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (2:17) and "a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" (2:24).  Conversely, Paul is emphatic that "a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ" (Gal. 2:16; compare Rom. 3:28).

The difference between the two, however, is largely one of emphasis and definition.  For James "faith" means primarily an intellectual acceptance of a proposition about God, such as "God is one" - a belief that even demons possess without undergoing any moral change (2:19).  Paul would have agreed with James that this kind of faith is insufficient to save a person.  Faith, according to Paul, is far more than a mere intellectual assent to a doctrine, however orthodox that doctrince may be.  For him faith is at once belief, trust, loyalty, the means whereby the believer comes into mystical union with Christ and receives the free gift of the spirit.  According to Paul, one is saved by faith alone, but the faith that saves is not alone - it is followed by good works that prove the vitality of that faith.  In brief, Paul declares that the only thing that avails in bringing one into a right relationship with God is "faith working through love" (Gal. 5:6) - and in this he is merely rephrasing a saying of Jesus,

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

That was from a text book of mine, The New Testament: Its Background, Growth, and Content, the third edition by Bruce Metzger, pages 289-290.  I thought he summed it up well.

Opinions are all any of us have, that and faith.  I certainly don't claim to know anything for absolute certain.  I believe other things but that is not the same a s knowing.

On the othe hand I have provided scriptures to back up what I have said - as I am good to my word.  And I know we both accept those as reliable.  You on the other hand have failed to live up to your word and I am beginning to doubt (as all the lurkers and non-posters should) that you can even come up with 146 verses that state what you claim they do with regard to salvation by faith alone.

We both agree that faith is important, no even crucial to properly accepting the free gift.  I admit there are verses galore that say it is required and even that other things are not acceptable (such as works aimed at meriting salvation).  But I only know one verse in the Bible that refers to the concept of "faith alone".

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

And clearly it does not say what these other supposed 146 verses you claim to have but can't seem to produce supposedly say.  I have already shown you where the first three don't say anything like what you claim so I guess your interpretation of the rest must be as weak and this is why you are reluctant to provide them.
 

Just keep studying my man. STUDY to show thyself approved is scriptural.

The Bible is a COMMENTARY on itself and a BELIEVER need not that any man teach him anything. It is the ANOINTING that TEACHES us ALL things and does not lie. (1 John 2:20,27) God uses men/women, but He gives us much more than just opinions.

You are attempting to engage in a scriptural "tit-for-tat" where opinions are tossed back and forth in an attempt to "Ein the local high scholl deabting contest." It never works, NEVER! No one ever changes their mind and it usually ends up in strife and where that is there is "Confusuion and every evil work."

There are 146 passages of scripture that link salvation with the words FAITH/BELIEVE/TRUST. That is a biblical fact and I am not going to take the time to type them all out, only to have you redefine everything with your opinons- it ain't worth it. The scriptures speak for themselves and the whole counsel of God is in favor of salvation as simply being "BY grace through FAITH," Period- NOT of WORKS. Salvation is ALWAYS presented as being UNTO good works, but works are NEVER presented as being SALVIFIC.

I reccomend that you read several different commentaries from a variety of sources on James versus Paul. If you do, you should discover, by Holy Spirit illumination, that they are nort in conflict. James was addressing Jewish Christians and was describing justificaton in the eyes of man and NOT God.

aw

Good advice especially if one is going to go back on their claim of having access to a resource list of specific verses to study.


This is of course nonsense.  Nowhere in scripture does it claim to be a commentary on itself.   So this is apparently an idea you got from outside of scripture - so much for sola scriptura.

As for a believe not needing any man to teach him anything you are drastically mistaken there as well.

New beleivers need milk and not meat (1 Cor 3:2 and Heb 5:12) and thus need someone to identify which is which and provide it, others are to shepherd those who are members of the Church just as Peter was told to feed His sheep (John 21:16-17) and the sheep were not told to feed themselves, and finally of course we are all told to submit to those who keep watch over our souls because it is profitable to us (Heb 13:17).  It is very clear scripture teaches that we are to learn not alone but from others.


Yes but then if we are to take this verse literally there would be no disagreement in the Church and there is.  In fact the scriptures makes provision for resolving these difference - just as Paul faced when there were those in his own time who were members of the Church who would not accept that even he knew everything.

Matt 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

If we were meant to take 1 John 2:20 literally the Bible would not include this process for resolving the disputes that would arise.


So based on this opinion of yours, you have given up apologetics and witnessing?  Is that what you are telling me?  Don't let your personal experience lead you to dispair, I can tell you that people do change their minds.


It is not a Biblical fact until you can prove it, I happen to think there are alot more than 146, but none of them link salvation to ONLY FAITH/BELIEVE/TRUST.  

But the point really is if ou do not care enough about the topic to do that kindly refrain from making claims you are unwilling to support.


Yeah the ten minutes of work it would take to do the search in your Bible software and then copy and paste it are just too much for you.  Or is it because you know you would have to re-evaluate your impression of these verses and your own interpretation if you held them up to the light of day and saw that there were other interpretations possible?


No they don't they are not clear and obvious to the most casual observer or your exhortation for me to study to show myself approved would make no sense.  See how even your approach to hermenuetics is self contradictory?


No that is just your interpretation.  I have shown verse after verse and corrected every interpretation of every verse you have provided to show that that is not true while you do nothing but ignore the ones I offer as support for accepting the free gift through faith and works.  If one wants to base their doctrine on a limited subset of scriptures one can prove anything.  I suggest you start comparing the verses you have relied on (even if you won't show them to anyone  else) to the rest of the Bible and see how you doctrine falls apart.


No it is not that again is just your opinion and another unsupported one at that.


That is just bad interpretation from a bad commentary.  James is about salvation as I have shown in several other threads - in fact he spends a great deal of time telling not to judge men (which you claim is the very thing his book is supposedly about).  Man cannot judge another's justification, nor should we.

I hope you never have to face it but if you do I hope you stand up to real persecution for your beliefs better than you have to my simple questioning.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

aw, please read that, and then read it again!

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' with enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven" (Matt. 7:21)

"I_believe" is right, the central theme of the NT is to love one another.  If the Bible was a fish, the meat of the fish is Jesus and his teachings, but you however sir, are choking on the bones.

This is a very good point.  Especially if you take a good long look at it.

Please note that Jesus is the one speaking and He says that even those who stand right there and say Lord Lord,  they are calling Him Lord (sounds like faith in Jesus to me - sounds like they have the Spirit - as no one can call Jesus Lord without it 1 Cor 12:3) yet they are not saved because they have not done the will of the Father in heaven.

So, by asking this question,  you do admit, that their is a difference, between believing the Father and belieivng Jesus.

That is different from previous arguments you have presented.



We need not speculate about this, it was prophecied;

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them (Isa 6:10).  (Jhn 12:37-40)

Nice to see you again Petro I thought you had given up on trying to discuss issues.

You are going to have to be more specific though in terms of what I have said in previous arguments as I do not see anything in what we are referring to here as being different from anything I might have said before.



For not needing to explain something you did a pretty remarkable job of doing so.

Yes they were blinded - and in doing so you proved my point -it is possible to believe in the Father and not believe in the Son.  That is because although they are both God they are also both separate and distinct persons of the Trinity.


I can't explain what drove the Reformers other than pride in self and a desire to have freedom from any authority even God's Church.

Now Darby and Michael, we have something that will serve as an example of how one gets into error. You have used the passage that says that not everyone who uses His name will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but the one who does His will. (Paraphrase of Mt7:21)  

Allow me to point out your error. You say I am CHOKING ON BONES and michael is claiming something other than BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH for salvation. SOoooooooo

A BASIC question is "To whom is that passage being addressed?" The Lord is addressing JEWS concerning, WHAT? Entrance into their KINGDOM. It is not speaking of salvation by grace through faith in His finished work at all! He had not even gone to the Cross at this point and the Church was still a mystery!!!!

IN THAT DAY- WHAT DAY? The Judgment of the wicked dead? The believer NEVER comes into JUDGMENT/CONDMNATION. (Romans 8:1,2; John 5:24)

This passage neither says that something is required other than FAITH/BELIEVE (Bones) nor does it place requirements upon the maintenance of salvation.

aw

aw, you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  it seems like any time anybody else makes a noteworthy point, you plug up your ears with your pinkies and sing "La la la la la la...".  There's no point in debating with you.  

You may think that some man made doctrine of dispensationalism allows you to ignore certain parts of the word of God, but I treasure and follow them all.

There is no part of the word of God that does not have application to any and all men at any and all times.


Excuse me but you are definitely wrong on this of course the believers are judged.

Look at the sheep and the goats.

The sheep are judged to be on his right hand because they gave him food and drink and shelter (acts of love fulfilling the spirit of the law toward a proper acceptance of the free gift) and what did they get once they were judged - entrance into the kingdom.


Even if it doesn't (which it does) what about the other 46 I have offered, which you still seem to be ducking?  Just how much of the word of God does your dispensationalism allow you to ignore?  Have you ever done a study to see what percentage you are missing?  Is it 10%?  50%?  95%?  Do you even know?

Michael, et.al.,

It is not dispensationalism to ask the question, "WHO is being addressed." Again, and something you refuse to acknowledge, is that the bible comments on itself. Romans 15:8,9 makes it clear that Christ came to the JEWS first to fulfill the promises made to their fathers. Those promises included fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant and the offer of the KINGDOM. Why do you suppose that Jesus said to go "NOT IN THE WAY OF THE GENTILES," but ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of ISRAEL? By your theology, you would have believers follow instructions that even the Lord specifically forbade!!!!!!!

Do you pray that "Your flight be not in winter or on the sabbath day?" Well, do you? The Lord said to do it and thus, by your own admission, if you are not you are being willfully disobedient.

You did not respond the Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24- believers are NEVER judged as to CONDEMNATION. The Believer is judged at the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST and you should not that it relates to rewards only. If you do not know that, I will instruct but you will probably reject even though it is as straightforward as it could be.

The Church could not possibly be judged according to how they treated Christ's brethren, the JEWS during the Tribulation. I will agree thaT WE CAN FOLLOW THE PRINCIPLES OF VISITING PEOPLE IN JAIL AS ONE EXAMPLE, BUT WE COULD NEVER BE JUDGED FOR CONFDEMNATION BY THAT STANDARD. That makes no sense at all much less having any scriptural basis.

To say I close my ears is also ABSURD! I respond with more scripture and spend more time that either of you preparing a response as indicated by your total lack of anything but OPINIONS!

Come back when you have something meaningfyl to offer and we can have a DISCUSSSION. You even have that wrong by calling it a DEBATE. It is NOT debate, but DISCUSSION and it should be with something other than personal opinions.

Let me know, and I would say brothers, but I am not so sure. Are either of you BORN AGAIN by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ alone?
aw

AMEN BROTHER AW!

The CROSS is the most precious event in human history. Did the Apostles who watched the crucifixion of Jesus Christ understand the significance of our Lord's death at the time? The answer is "NO". Did they understand the significance of Christ's resurrection and the revelation of the Holy Spirit? The answer is "NO". They certainly didn't understand the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST.

Many would make the word "Dispensational" a dirty word, and it might be if someone took it too far. However, when someone considers the speaker, the purpose, the audience, and THE CROSS, that is called rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Love IN Christ,
Tom

No comment necessary.  Truth is truth.

Thank you! Finally someone who acknowledges that man can bring nothing to that Cross in his stinking little hand to hold up to God. All we can do is to humbly bow before the majesty of His grace and love.

Not by the will of flesh, nor by the will of man, but ALL is of God. Salvation originates and ends with Him amd Him alone.

aw

AMEN AGAIN BROTHER AW!

Our all is in Jesus Christ, HIS Blood, and HIS GIFT.

Our forgiveness, redemption, sanctification, and justification is in Jesus Christ.

We have no righteousness of our own. Our righteousness is seen only in and through Jesus Christ. We are also made fit in and through HIM.  In other words, we have nothing without Jesus Christ.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I saw this as kind of a spiritual summary of the gospel;

Christ + nothing = salvation

Christ + anything/anyone = nothing

aw

PART 1 OF 2


Not technically if that is where you stopped, but you go on to assume that those who are being addressed directly are the only ones being addressed.  It is never right to come to the conclusion that just because someone specific is being addressed that the message does not apply equally to you.  When Jesus tells the woman who is caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more" do you figure that doesn't apply to you?


I refuse to acknowledge it because so far it is only your unsupported opinion.  You don't even bother to try to find and/or provide any support for the idea within scripture - so much for sola scriptura.


Rom 15:8-9  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:  And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

This verse says the promises were confirmed by Christ, not fulfilled, as you claim. The promises will be fulfilled at some point later.  And the Church as grafted in will participate in receiving those promises. To imply that Christ offered the Israelites the chance at an earthly kingdom if they were to accept Him, is not supported by scripture.  Do you really want to claim that Christ came down to earth with one purpose and had to abandon it for plan B and then establish the Church?


It is a fulfillment of the promise of Ez 34:5-6, and Jer 50:6,17 but that directive is not to go to the Israelites with a preaching of the earthly kingdom, but to go to them to preach the message of the Gospel - the same message and the same Gospel that was preached to the gentiles.

There is no difference between Jew and gentile so there is no point to the message being different.

Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

1 Cor 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

We are wild olive branches graft in to the natural tree where branches were broken off, but we can yet be broken off if we lose faith.  Rom 11:17-21


What instructions would those be?  Jesus Himself also said that He was sent only for the house of Israel - if you take that literally and refuse to apply it to us as you do with these other verses then there is no salvation for gentiles.

Mat 15:24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


I do - as all Christians have throughout history since we do not know when the tribulation will come upon the Church.  You may not because you have some idea that the Church won’t be here but that is just based on more bad interpretations based on a preconceived notion of dispensationalism which has clouded all your interpretations of scripture to the exclusion of whole parts of the word of God from your life.

END OF PART 1

PART 2


I believe I did respond to the two verses Roman 8:1-2 and John 5:24 at least at a level comparable to the interpretation you offered for the verse you yourself referenced.  But I will be glad to expand on my explanation.  In the last post I stated - Excuse me but you are definitely wrong on this of course the believers are judged. - and then I used the example of the sheep and goats which occurs at the judgement day and this is more than just for rewards this is about entering the kingdom or not getting to go to heaven.

If you want more on those two verses I can easily show that they teach the same thing as the parable of the sheep and goats.

Rom 8:1-2  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This says there is no condemnation (not that there is no judgment) of them which are in Christ AND who walk not after the flesh (bad works) but after the spirit (good works of love).  So we see that out walking in the spirit is not just related to rewards but as a requirement to a proper acceptance of the gift and thus avoiding condemnation.  We are judged but there is no condemnation of us because we are in Christ and walk after the spirit.

Of course we have to ask how we are in Christ and that is best seen in John 15:10

Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Your reference to John 5:24 doesn't say what you think it does either.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It says there is no condemnation (again not that there is no judgment).  Not amazingly we also see here, that not only do we have to believe, but we have to hear (and this is not just letting it go in one ear and out the other).  Hearing is an understanding, acceptance and internalizing of the message of the Gospel such that it becomes part of our life - this is works.  If we do not do hear His message we can't truly have faith in Him.


Why is that - because you follow some dispensational approach of a rapture and a literal millenial reign of Christ on earth?  


If we do not do such acts of love we would have a dead faith and thus not have properly accepted the gift and we are judged for condemnation by that.


I did not say that you closed your ears, but you do tend to ignore the message to all of us of verses that you feel you can apply only to certain other groups.  Your claim at responding with more scripture and spending more time is nonsense as you seldom if ever do any more than quote scripture without providing an interpretation of what you claim it means.  It doesn't take much time to do that.  It does have the advantage of avoiding making your own opinions/doctrine have to face an analysis that would show them to be self contradictory or in contradiction with other scripture.  Secondly, since I supplied 46 verse references in one single post, plus dozens of other in other posts, and you have only promised you could provide 146 verses and then never delivered on that offer - I don't think you have any room to complain.


Don't try to pull semantic gymnastics with me, especially if you are not going to bother to look up the terms.  Webster defines a discussion as a consideration of a question in an open and informal debate.   It defines a debate as a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides.  So we see that a discussion and a debate differ only very slightly.  Perhaps you are right though, as you don't seem to regulate your response to any format other than simple verse slinging and you seem to be over matched.


I am born again but it is not as simplistic as you make it out to be.  A proper understanding of the salvation process depends on what you think the finished work of Christ accomplished.  It is clear that even you cannot think that it means our salvation was completed at the cross, because then we wouldn't even have to have faith, because that comes later.  If our personal salvation was finished at the cross then we would all be saved, every last one of us and there would be no need for the decision of faith that occurs in some instances (like mine) over a thousand years later.  

So what did Christ mean when He said, on the cross that, "it is finished"?  He meant that His role as sacrificial lamb was finished - that the offering of the gift was finished.  Our acceptance of the gift is not finished.  That takes us back to our discussion/debate - how did Christ instruct us to accept the gift.  You say by faith alone - even though you cannot provide a single verse that says that.  I say by a living faith - one that cannot be separated from works of love fulfilling the spirit of the law and I provide verse after verse, that support it, that you refuse to even address.  I even provide 46 verses that clearly lay out other things we are instructed to do to properly accept the gift and you ignore them, not even bothering to give a reason for each as to why you feel you can ignore them.  Instead relying on a blanket approach that if they don’t match your preconceived notion of salvation they must have been written for someone else in another dispensation.

END OF PART 2
END

Then whoever came up with this summary doesn't have a clue about what the Gospel teaches.

Tell me where does faith (you admit is essential) fit in that formula?

Christ + nothing = salvation

In the first version if it fits in the first term "Christ" then we all are saved since He did it all for us and we even get faith for free no effort.   But that doesn't work because we know that not all are saved.

If faith fits in the second term "nothing" (since it is nothing in comparsion to the gift) then it either is not essentail (as somethign which is nothing can hardly be essential) or works can fit right in there too.  And we are back to our discussion as to whether the scriptures teach faith and works or faith alone and we must figure it out by addressing the scriptures each of us provide to support one interpretation or the other.

Michael,
You IZ one mo mixed up dude and I suspect you are going to stay that way as you are too proud to consider any alternative to what you believe. You are sitting under some very poor, if not heretical, teaching.

I really don't have the time to become your teacher, but I will give just one example- you attempted to refute Romans 8:1,2 and John 5:24 on the grounds that there are differences between CONDEMNATION and JUDGMNET. Please, do a little more study before you make such statements.

****THE REASON???????****** CHRIST DIED so there would be NO CONDEMNATION!!!!!!!!!

That kind of doctrine of devils is what cause roighteous indignation to rise up- not against you personally as you may not know any better.

I will attempt one final time to point out your errors in this regard. Concerning "JUDGMENTS":

"SIN" was judged at CALVARY in A.D.30. CHRIST DIED with the result of JUSTIFICATION for all who will believe. It has already occurred. (Romans 10:4)

Christ is the END OF THE LAW to all who believe. To return to LAW is to FALL FROM GRACE and any gospel that contains any human WORK has the attendant ANATHEMA(CURSE) of God attached to it!!!!!

We have been redeemed from the CURSE of the LAW. Go on back if you wish and if you do, CHRIST will be of NO EFFECT for you!

He bore our sins in His body on the Cross and as the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world.

Now, if you can get a JUDGMENT/CONDEMNATION out of that, then feel free to live in that kind of teaching. I advize others to run as far and as fast as possible from the abominations of LEGALISM!!!!!

Judgment #2- Already explained. It is for believers and is concerned with REWARDS only! (2 Cor 5:10) It is the JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

Judgment #3- Is on the THRONE OF HIS GLORY, on the EARTH, and is rerated to the NATIONS as either sheep or goats.

Judgment #4- Is the GREAT WHITE THRONE Judgment and is concerned with the WICKED DEAD.

Where in the world are you being taught exegesis/escatology? Wherever or whoever really need prayer and help and I have never read such teachings so replete with multiplicity of ambiguity.

aw

PART 1 OF 2


If it makes you feel better to express your failing to be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you, in that way I am glad I could help.  But you should know that I don't let just anyone teach me I rely on the teachings of the Chruch that was promised protection from error and whose authority was passed on through a proper succession of laying on of hands, something you do not have access to in your church.


I agree but you said that Christians weren’t even judged and I showed you that scripture proves that is not true.  We are judged and if we have properly accepted the gift made possible by Christ’s death we are not condemned.  If we have not accepted it properly then we will be condemned.


Yes, His part did occur in the past, but to get that judgment of sin applied to us we have to do something don’t we?  We have to believe and this belief has to be a living faith one not separated from works.  We have to believe in Him ion our hearts, meaning we have to internalize His teachings.  We have to believe in Him as more than just the sacrificial lamb but believe in Him in His role as Lord and shepherd.  If we do not pick up our cross DAILY and follow Him we are not worthy of Him.  Luke 9:23


Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that Christ is the end of the law, in fact Christ makes it perfectly clear that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and He taught us that love fulfills the law.


No that is your misinterpretation of the scriptures.  Any return to legalism and trying to merit salvation through the letter of the law is a fall from grace.  Paul himself tells us that it is only the letter of the law that killeth and that the spirit of the law brings life.


This must be a anathema of your own as it does not appear in the scriptures.  The only verse that contains a reference to an anathema is 1 Cor 16:22  If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.  Where we see that it is brought down on us for not loving Jesus.  Faith alone is not enough we must love Christ and how do we love Him?  

Maybe you intend to refer to a curse, but the only place a curse and the law are referenced in the scriptures is in John 7:49  But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed, and Gal 3:10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.  Now if one only built their doctrine off of the verse from Galatians in isolation ignoring most of the rest of scripture you might fall into your error.  But we see that John is in contradiction to a simplistic interpretation of Galatians.  The resolution comes when we see that Christ taught love fulfills all the law.  

Mat 22:36-40  Master, which is the great commandment in the law?  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   This is the first and great commandment.   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

So we can keep all the law (the spirit of the law not the letter).  

Even Paul taught this so he must have seen his statement in Galatians differently than you intend it.  Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.  Paul even repeats himself later in the same book the curse you refer to comes from.  Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Or maybe you intend the curse mentioned in association with the teaching of false Gospels.  

Gal 1:8-9  But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

But then it is your Gospel that is different and new (having not been heard of prior to the 1500’s)

END OF PART 1

PART 2


Yes and that infused righteousness and grace makes it possible for us to have faith and to do works pleasing to God.  Without it there would be no chance for us.  That is the nature of the free gift, but it is still up to us to accept it.


It is hardly legalism to obey Christ and accept the gift as he has instructed us.  Only if we fall into the error that we are somehow meriting the gift by following those instructions does it become legalism.

I have already shown you the judgment in the parable of the sheep and goats where Christ judges us placing us on His right or left hand.  There is of course no condemnation on those who properly accept the gift, but those who do not the works of love to keep their faith alive and perfect it are judged – they are the goats and they are cast into hell.  But you have ignored this parable apparently having no way to make it fit into your doctrine which is based on a few carefully choosen verses from within all of scripture.

Here is another parable for you to ignore.  Those who claimed to do good deeds in His name but were really doing them not as a loving response but as an attempt at legalism to merit salvation.

Mat 7:21-23  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.   Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They call out His name recognizing Him as Lord, right to His face and yet this amount of faith is not sufficient (getting back to the topic of the thread) for salvation.  Why?  Because they did not do the will of the Father.  They claim that they did, but it is clear that the works they list are just prideful works based on the strength of their faith alone, aimed at meriting their salvation, never really doing the will of God which is for us to love Him and love others.


We will get rewards and suffer loss at this judgment, but the verse nowhere says that that is all that judgment is for.  You sure like to slip ONLY in a lot where it doesn’t exist.  Just like Luther changing scripture by adding alone to faith where it never existed.


There are only two judgments the particular and the general.  Your claiming a doctrine of four separate judgments does not prove it is supported by scripture.  These arbitrary divisions of yours have not basis, which is clear from the fact that you don’t bother to try to even offer one from scripture preferring instead to hope we just accept your word as authoritative I guess because you have set yourself up as our teacher.  Unfortunately you are ill prepared for the position.


This eschatology is the same as has been taught throughout Christendom for 2000 years with the exception of some of those who broke away back about 1500 years ago.  Separation of the judgments into 4 events is a new and novel invention of men, not known before the 1500’s.

END OF PART 2
END

Michael,

I've tried pretty hard to stay out of this. I would hope that you aren't even hinting that the Catholic Church is the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. If you are, the monstrosity of your error would be beyond description. Please do let me know if this is what you are implying. I would also hope that you don't imply there is no error in your brick and mortar buildings. Your brick and mortar buildings are riddled with errors, human failures, and sin. If you claim some sort of Divine protection from error, failure, and sin for your church, it didn't happen, hasn't happened, and won't happen. THE CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST IS NOT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE BAPTIST CHURCH, THE METHODIST CHURCH, OR ANY OTHER DEVISE OF MAN. If you are looking for a brick and mortar church without error, failure, and sin - THERE ISN'T ONE.  

THE CHURCH is never compared with any of man's error, failure, and sin-ridden structures. That includes all of man's structures.

Tom

I hope you did that because in some sense you saw it as your role as moderator, not because of me.  You needn't have for my sake.  I value your opinion and would be glad to delve into the what the word says with you as much as anyone here.


I do not think that a Church is made up of brick and mortar but it is made up of people and those people are established as a hierarchy of Bishops, Elders, Deacons and Members.  It is this hierarchy that we are directed to go to to resolve errors.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This isn't a local hierarchy as the message you get from it would differ from place to place - this must be a central authority.


As to the Church being infallible in matters of doctrine I would say that I am not going to let a body I do not believe is free from error resolve disputes in matters of doctrine for me it is too important to leave to others who might make an error in judgement.  That is why the leadership of the Church (not once but twice was granted protection and promised to be kept from error.

Mat 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


I do not believe that the Catholic Church is the only place we find the Body of Christ.  I believe it is found in the Orthodox and many of the Protestant and non-denominational Churches as well.  I also believe there are some who claim membership in the Catholic Church who are not part of the body of Christ.

But I see scripture clearly stating the need for a physically identifiable Church (so we can go to it for resolution of disagreements among other things) and I see no other candidate except perhaps the Orthodox Church though I doubt that would make many here much happier with my choice.

Do you have another candidate?  I would be glad to consider one.  If not how do you resolve disputes?  Who do you take a brother too when you disagree over doctrine?  Does Matt 18:17 fit in your church's or denomination's view of the mission of the Church at all?

Michael, I only need one example to demonstrate how riddled with error your doctrine, wherever you are getting it, really is. You keep quoting that "Not everyonwho has called Him Lord will enter, etc." That passage ends with, "I never knew you." Christ would not, and indeed could not, say that to a believer in Him because He indwells Him! He has said, "I will never leave you not forake you(believers)." The Holy Spirit indwells every believer and is the all-knowing God.

To assert that the passage you quoted applies to a believer at some sort of judgment is just plain ridiculous!!!! Your posts are getting to the place  of deteriorating to the point that there is not enough merit to even respond.

Please try and be objective and pray about what you are believing.

aw

You are trying to prove something by assuming what you are trying to prove - that is circular reasoning.

You start by assuming that believers are in Christ simply by believing in Him.  Then you try to use that to prove that those who believe in Christ are never abandon because they are in Him.

Maybe you would have a stronger case if you could provide a verse that said someone was in Christ simply through faith alone - but we both know no such verse exists.

Maybe you would have a stronger case if you could provide a verse that says the Holy Spirit indwells all believers who only have faith alone - but we both know no such verse exists.

You even try to provide one like this by paraphrasing, a clear indication that you know the verse doesn't really say what you want it to when you put in quotes the following: "I will never leave you not forake you(believers)."  To make matters worse you add in parenthesis (believers) to interpret the word YOU, when the verse I think you are referring to does not imply this interpretation.  I believe you are referring to the following:

Heb 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Where does this verse claim those it refers to a thee are believers who only have faith?  I believe you are reading that into the verse based on the preconceived notions fo your doctrine.

As far as Christ leaving us that is true He will not leave us but that does not mean that we cannot leave Him.


I don't contend that the passage refers to a true believer, someone with a true living faith (one that is kept alive and perfected by works).  But it does refer to a believer as anyone who can read can see, since these people refer to Jesus as Lord and as I showed before with other scripture (which you ignored) that no one can call Jesus Lord except by the Spirit.  

The message of the verse is Christ saying - simply recognizing Him as Lord is not enough, that you must do the will of the Father. You want to claim that these people, who call Him Lord, do not have faith - how is that possible?  Try addressing the verse itself and stop trying to find other verses you think contradict it.

Michael,
I don't think you even know what CIRCULAR REASONING is. The passage reads, "Not every one that saith unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

A very simple and fundamental rule of exegesis is to establish the CONTEXT, which you never seem to do. If you will simply keep in mind the AUDIENCE and keep reading. The next vs reads,"Many will say to me in that DAY (what day do you suppose that is Micahel?), LORD LORD, have we not prophecied in thy name?" And in thy Name cast out devils, and in thy name many WONDERFUL WORKS.

The Lord then tells them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!!"

They will address Him as Lord because they will see Him face-to-face. They had used His name and even did WONDERFUL WORKS, but yet He says He never KNEW THEM.

You cannot honestly believe that someone who is saved, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, said to have been IN CHRIST BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4), has Christ as Saviour/Intercessor/Advocate, has been prayed to and worshipped, has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and died for would say to any one of them "I NEVER KNEW YOU!"

You see, I really wouldn't care what you believe except for the fact that you keep detracting from the CROSS of my Saviour. As long as you persist in this doctrine of devils I am going to withstand you with the oracles of God or get kicked off the forum.

The Lamb of God either took away the sins of the world or He did not? He became sin that we might be the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:17-21)

Lastly Michael, you really need to re-study carefully the words CONDEMNATION and JUDGMENT. Just go to a good dictionary such as the EXPANDED VINE'S EXPOSITORY or a good lexicon. I am not going to do your homework for you, but its the GREEK word KATAKRIMA for CONDEMNATION and it a process of JUDGMENT leading to PUNISHMENT.

Now, the Saviour bore the punishment for the sin. Sin was judged and He became sin and hence the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. There is now therefore NO CONDEMNATION/JUDGMENT to those who are in Christ. If you believe otherwise, then you are still in your sins and on your way to JUDGMENT where you can list YOUR GOOD WORKS, but all you will receive is LESS PUNISHMENT if you did a bunch.

You should let us know how you believe in this regard as there are some real Christians here who are mighty prayer warriors.

aw

I wasn’t referring to the verse I was referring to your use of other verses to try to force an interpretation on the verse.  My point of referencing the verse is to show that salvation is not by faith alone.  This verse says they call Him Lord, any other time you would say that proves they have faith, but because He claims to have never known them you say that proves they weren’t saved and I agree.  But then you assume that not being saved means they never had faith (since you assume that salvation is by faith alone).  So you conclude that they cannot have faith which is what you were trying to prove.  So you prove they cannot have faith by assuming that the only way to salvation is by faith alone.  That is a circular argument.


Yes but the context of all scripture is all other scripture.  To approach a scripture as you do looking for loopholes to give you a chance to ignore it or not apply it to your life is ignoring the greater context that all of God’s word does not contradict.

The day referred to is the judgment day – which we will all go through.  So no ducking applying this verse to us here.


Yes, He never knew them because all they had was faith, they did not accept the gift properly through both faith and works.  They thought that they could merit salvation just on the strength of their faith alone.


Yes they did wonderful works because they had the faith to move mountains, but it came to nothing – why?

1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Faith alone is not enough – how many times do the scriptures have to tell you before you see it?


No I do not believe that someone who is saved would ever be told that He never knew them.  I would admit that these men were never saved.  The point you are missing is that they had faith and yet were never saved.  What kind of faith?  Faith enough to call Him Lord.  Faith enough to do might works in His name.  That kind of faith and yet they were never saved.


I have never said anything that detracts for the cross.  All of the doctrine associated with a proper acceptance of the gift is meaningless without the cross to first make it possible.  Accepting the gift through faith and works (of love and the spirit of the law) do not detract from the cross anymore than accepting the gift through faith alone.  They both require us to participate in our own salvation.


Yes the Lamb of God took away the sins of the world, but that is not enough to save us or else we would all be saved and we know that not all are saved.  So we have to do something to accept the gift.  We are discussing what that something is so trying to deflect the argument to this topic which we both agree on is just misdirection.


Actually it appears you are the one who needs to do the homework in their Greek as there are several words used in the New Testament for Condemnation and while it is true that sometimes they are mistranslated in the KJV as Judgment the context makes it clear what is meant.  

Judgment in the New Testament is most often a process or as Strong’s 2920 puts it an accusation or tribunal.  That is why people are referred to as sitting at judgment.  They come together to decide something.

Condemnation is the result or as Strong’s 2917 puts it a decision or the effect, or as Strong’s 2631 and 2633 puts it an adverse sentence.


The verse you are quoting is Rom 8:1  There is therefore686 now3568 no3762 condemnation2631 to them3588 which are in1722 Christ5547 Jesus,2424 who walk4043 not3361 after2596 the flesh,4561 but235 after2596 the Spirit.4151

Notice how the word condemnation is Strong’s 2631 which is specifically an adverse sentence.  This verse does not say anything about those who are in Christ not being judged, only that when they are judged they will not be condemned.  Of course you would know this if you had done the Greek study you recommended to me.

Michael, Michael, Michael,
Dude, you really need to go back to some basics. For example, your ideas of what FAITH is, lies somewhere between heart faith and intellectual orthodoxy and is therefore wrong. The devils are said to BELIEVE, and you are constantly confusing this type of belief with that of salvation. Theyelieve a set of facts or they consent mentally that God is God, but they are obviously not saved.

Salvation is BELIEF WITH THE HEART and is a PERSONAL response to God's offer of salvation. It is never of WORKS lest any man should boast. It is not BELIEF/FAITH only, but BY GRACE through faith only in the complete and fiished work of the Lord Jesus Christ!

No doubt you are a McArhurite or some brand of RELIGION that is anti- sola scriptura such as  Roman catholocism that is nothing short of a whole bunch of doctrines of devils all tied up into one abominable group. Or, some LEGALISTIC group that holds itself up as authoritative so that they can hold their members in bondage to a false doctrine. Those involved with such need prayer that they will recover from the snares of satan.

aw

I sensed we may be using the definition of faith differently.  I refer to faith as Webster uses and defines the word.

Faith is defined by Webster as
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
synonym see BELIEF

You I think tend to use the word to refer only to a true saving faith, wishing to relegate all other forms to mere belief as if that were somehow different.  However we see that according to Webster faith and belief are the same.  

So it becomes important to use an adjective to identify a true saving faith.  James did that when he contrasted the faith of the demons to that of one who was truly saved.  You remember when he was talking about the man who said he had faith (a mere mental assent to the idea of Christ as Lord) but did not works.  He compared that man’s faith (which James clearly said the man had) to the belief of the demons – showing us that James preceded Webster in his understanding of the two words being synonymous.

Now what was the adjective we can apply to a form of faith - the kind that is truly saving?  Oh yes LIVING.  James told us that a faith without works is dead and cannot save.  He did not teach that this form of faith does not exist – he taught that it does exist, and it is rightly called faith and it does not save because it is alone.  The opposite of a dead faith is a living faith.

The faith of demons is one of mere mental assent – they know Christ is Lordand they tremble because of it.  They do not make their faith alive though or perfect because they refuse to follow Him and do the works He directs us to.  Their faith is never perfect by works.  Their faith is alone and it does not save.


I agree but I am not confusing it with the faith of salvation – you are.  I recognize that their faith is alone (without works of love) and I know it does not save.  You on the other hand think that when people have faith alone that it does save.  How is their position different from the demons?  Shouldn’t someone who has faith alone tremble?


Salvation is not belief at all.  I think you misworded that.  Perhaps you meant to say salvation comes to us when we believe with the heart and personally respond to God’s offer of salvation.  I can agree with this definition whole heartedly.  But don’t you see in your own definition you go beyond mere faith to faith and works.   If you believe with the heart that means you have internalized His message and made it part of your life (which is works).  Don’t you also see that you admit we must respond (more works).  Don’t get hung up too much on Paul’s exhortation to avoid works aimed at meriting salvation as these types of loving responses by us as we take His word to heart are not aimed at meriting salvation they are merely intended to follow His instructions on how to accept the free gift.  Works of love no more take away from the gift than faith does.  They are both acts of men and they are both completely useless and meaningless without God’s grace and the gift first having been offered.  The point you need to see is that they are also both completely useless without each other.


I am Roman Catholic and of course I do oppose the man made idea of sola scriptura (because it is self contradictory coming as it does from outside of scripture and never appearing within scripture anywhere).

And you are wrong about the teachings of the RCC.  The doctrines of the Catholic Church are the least legalistic of all of Christianity (that I am aware of) – since they teach that it is the spirit of the law that we fulfill through love of God and love of our fellow man.  

Legalism is trying to hold to the letter of a set of instructions. I spend a great deal of my time correcting Protestants who supposedly have gotten the message of the Old Testament which served as our school teacher to show that the letter killeth but the spirit bringeth life, but yet still want to hold the Catholic Churches feet to the fire over calling Priests Father.  If that is not legalism I don’t know what is.

The RCC holds the following as being REQUIRED for salvation: baptismal regeneration, transubstantiation, amd membership in the catholic church, just to name a few.

Everyone is going to have to be real quiet in heaven when they get near the few of them that were actually saved because they will still be thinking that "THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THERE!!!!"

aw

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


Actually this is a technical term for the real presence of the Jesus in the Eucharist.  We are not reuired to go through transubstantiation to be saved.  Did you even know what the word meant before you copied and pasted it from some source you never even bothered to check the correctness of?  

What is required that jesus is truly present in the Eucharist so that we can obey His instructions to eat His Body and drink His Blood.

John 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


And this one is just plain wrong and it just goes to show how confused you are about the teachings of the Catholic Church - but don't feel bad you are not alone - alot of Protestants share your prejudices toward the Catholic Church - I am here to help you see past them to the truth.

The following is a quote from the Official Catholic Catechism which proves that the Church teaches that others besides those in the Catholic Church can be saved.

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."

Jesus said, "You MUST be BORN AGAIN." What then is your view of how this is accomplishr. How and when is a person BORN AGAIN?

aw

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism.

John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

But I was wondering is this what I am to expect of you each time?  Just more questions with no admission of error or apology for misrepresenting the doctrines of the Catholic Church?  

Am I to assume everytime you change the subject rather than defend your position that you are admitting the error of your ways in the last post?

Michael,
The subject of the post is what is required for salvation- the single most important question that confronts any human being. I do not have to bring into question the tenets of the RCC as they are well known for their errors. You respond by listing one in this very post. John 3:5 does not make any mention of water baptism. It is absurd to think that every time one reads the word WATER that it means a person has to be dunked by another human being.

Besides that, in the RCC it would be highly possible that you could have a child of satan(an unsaved pedophile as an example), since all unsaved are just that, baptizing another child of satan, if one cannot be born again until water baptism.

So, I will assume your response is simply to "get dunked" in the right way (which cannot be found anywhere in scripture) and you will be born again?

The question Michael is, "What must a person do to be BORN AGAIN?"

aw

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  (Rom 10:8-13 WEB)

A true understanding of the simplicity that is in the gospel of Jesus Christ for salvation.

If you teach/preach that, the Holy Spirit can regenerate that person and they will become a brand new cration in Christ.

Amen,

aw