Print Page - The church and salvation

There are two things, that don't quite, sound right.

1. One must be baptized, (water immersion) to be saved.

What happened to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which Jesus baptizes with..

Water baptism doesn't save anyone, but being baptized with the Holy Ghost by Jesus does.

Luke 3
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: (also, Mat 3:11, Mk 1:8)

And the Apostle John , writes;

Jhn 1
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So, which baptism is in view, herein, where Jesus say;

Mat 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned..

If you think it is water, baptism, why and how can you reconcile it with Luke 3:16, Mat 3:11, and Mk 1:8.??

2. One must do some work;

What work?? Must one do to be saved??

The works, which prove one is saved are done after, that person is saved, this is the evidence he/she has been saved.

But that is not the question, Mardis, herein has stated, one must do somekind of work to be saved, so, I ask what work must one do to be saved??

Please show your work using scripture..

Abraham, was saved without works, it is written he believed and it was counted unto him, for righteouness, in fact here is the scripture passage;

Rom 4
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

God chose Abraham, and set him apart, that he might believe the truth, and when he believed the truth concerning God, he was saved.

If believing is a work, I guess I would have to concede, that Abraham, did some kind of work, since he did climb the mountain, while carrying the wood pile, on his way to sacrifice Isaac, as commanded by God, on the other hand, obeying God command is work also, and in doing so, someone can show a measure of faith.

But the scriptures tell us that Faith, is a free gift, given by God thru his grace;

Eph 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And salvation is obtained by the excersicing of it, and it is not a work.

The Gospel is actually very simple, and at the same time, it is difficult to grasp, because man, being man, always wants to add to it, his 2 cents;

But the Word of God, says;

Rom 10
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Blessings,

Petro

I guess you aren't reading your bible much huh? You also seem to be a bit dense concering James but that's another matter.

Ro 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:30
Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith
of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Ro 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ro 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Ro 9:32
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Ro 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ro 11:20
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
2Co 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
Ga 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the
faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Ga 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Ga 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Ga 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to
bring us unto Christ, that we might be
justified by faith.
Ga 3:26
For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 5:5
For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Ga 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Sounds like a whole lotta faith to me. Want to see some more?

Hey everyone! There is no need to be insulting. If we cannot be respectful and kind then we need to not participate in this discussion. We do not have to agree, but we also do not have to be mean (Ephesians 4:15; Jude 3).

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
To be saved - Mark 16:16.
To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Yes, there are many passages that speak concerning the essentaility of belief, but only one speaks about faith only and it says that we are not saved by faith only - James 2:22-24.

There are some passages that speak of repentance but not belief - Luke 13:3-5. Surely, no one would say we are saved by repentance only, without belief.

There are passages that speak of baptism but not belief and repentanct - Acts 22:16. Surely, no one would contend that baptism only saves.

There are passages that mention confession and belief, but not repentance and baptism - Romans 10:9-10.

There are passages that mention baptism and repentance, but not belief and confession - Acts 2:38.

Yet, there are many passage that teach that both belief, repentance, confession of faith in Christ, and baptism are all essential to being saved (See scripture citations given above).

These scriptures are evidence enough. They are not difficult. Anyone with a mind can understand them.

Let's continue our studies, but let's please not be mean or unkind toward anyone, even those with whom we disagree.

Contact me here or at www.pagestoyou.com for more information.

We cannot obtain forgiveness of sin and righteousness before God by our own merits, works, or satisfactions, but we receive forgiveness of sin and become righteous before God by grace, for Christ's sake, through faith, when we believe that Christ suffered for us and that for his sake our sin is forgiven and righteousness and eternal life are given to us. For God will regard and reckon this faith as righteousness, as Paul says in Romans 3.21-26 and 4.5.

To obtain such faith God instituted the office of the ministry, that is, provided the Gospel and the sacraments. Through these, as through means, God gives the Holy Spirit, who works faith, when and where she pleases, in those who hear the Gospel. And the Gospel teaches that we have a gracious God, not by our own merits but by the merit of Christ, when we believe this.

Such faith should produce good fruits and good works and we must do all such good works as God has commanded, but we should do them for God's sake and not place our trust in them as if thereby to merit favor before God. For we receive forgiveness of sin and righteousness through faith in Christ, as Christ himself says, "So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, 'We are worthless slaves.'"

One holy Christian church will be and remain forever. This is the assembly of all believers among whom the Gospel is preached in its purity and the holy sacraments are administered according to the Gospel. For it is sufficient for the true unity of the Christian church that the Gospel be preached in conformity with a pure understanding of it and that the sacraments be administered in accordance with the divine Word. It is not necessary for the true unity of the Christian church that ceremonies, instituted by people, should be observed uniformly in all places. It is as Paul says in Ephesians 4.4,5, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism."

Baptism is necessary and grace is offered through it. Children, too, should be baptized, for in Baptism they are committed to God and become acceptable to God.

The true body and blood of Christ are really present in the Supper of our Lord under the form of bread and wine and are there distributed and received.

Those who sin after Baptism receive forgiveness of sin whenever they come to repentance, and absolution should not be denied them by the church. Properly speaking, true repentance is nothing else than to have contrition and sorrow, or terror, on account of sin, and yet at the same time to believe the Gospel and absolution (namely, that sin has been forgiven and grace has been obtained through Christ), and this faith will comfort the heart and again set it at rest. Amendment of life and the forsaking of sin should then follow, for these must be the fruits of repentance, as John says, "Bear fruit worthy of repentance" (Mt 3.8).

The sacraments were instituted not only to be signs by which people might be identified outwardly as Christians, but that they are signs and testimonies of God's will toward us for the purpose of awakening and strengthening our faith. For this reason they require faith, and they are rightly used when they are received in faith and for the purpose of strengthening faith.

Our works cannot reconcile us with God or obtain grace for us, for this happens only through faith, that is, when we believe that our sins are forgiven for Christ's sake, who alone is the mediator who reconciles the Father. Whoever imagines that he can accomplish this by works, or that he can merit grace, despises Christ and seeks his own way to God, contrary to the Gospel.

This teaching about faith is plainly and clearly treated by Paul in many passages, especially in Ephesians 2.8,9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God - not the result of works, so that no one may boast," etc.

Shalom:
PastorTom

Baptism is not water only, but it is water used together with God's Word and by his command.

In Matthew 28 our Lord Jesus Christ says: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Baptism is a miracle. It looks so ordinary: some parents, some sponsors, and a pastor gathered around a bowl to say a few words and splash some water on a baby who either sleeps or screams, unaware of what's happening. Who'd ever guess there is anything earthshaking or miraculous about that?

But it's just like the God of the promise, to hide themost miraculous event in a simple ceremony. Baptism is a miracle greater than walking on water. For in it, with the washing of the water and the pronouncement of his Word, God adopts each of us, takes us into the communion of saints, and gives us a future that not even death and the devil can destroy.

In the sacraments, Christ puts his words together with some common, ordinary earthly things - water, bread, and wine - to give his gifts to us. This combination, Christ's giving us his Word with something earthly or physical, is what makes it a sacrament.

In Baptism, Christ takes plain, ordinary water that has been drawn from a tap and puts it together with the Word to seal you as his own. It is as if Christ says, "Here now, with the washing of this water, you know that my Word and decision are for you. Now you can be certain, for I have washed you in my promise.

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water. "Water," it sniffs. "Water! Whoever heard of such a thing? You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain? Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away. "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol. But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism. If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only." The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important: doing good things for Jesus. It's the same story. If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism isnot water only. It is water used together with God's Word...." The water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament. Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water. Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone. The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said. How does this happen? By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Sond and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20). This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing. As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church. Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made. "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty. Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost. But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise. For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose: to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us. As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting in what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter. So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die. Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important. Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain. It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us. Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better. And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us. Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes. God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us. God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainty that is Christ's trademark.

Mardis, my question is not a trick question, you said;

Quote

mardis reply #10

This is not working to merit salvation, because we cannot merit salvation. However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work. This includes baptism for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Please refer to your answer to reba, I have posted what you stated in reply to her, post.

Specifically refering to your own words, which you wrote where you state;

However, there is something we must do to receive God's gracious redemptive work.

What is that specific something we must do to receivce God's gracious redemptive work

Mardis, your attention is invited to;

Quote

posted byu mardis rely #24
I am not really sure what it is you are asking. Please explain the question of "What is the work one must do to be saved." I am sorry that I do not understand what you are asking. Maybe if you explained it further I could try to answer this question.

I am curious, what it is you are trying to teach, concerning this??, This is why I ask the question.

Now, concerning Baptism,

You say:

Quote

posted by mardis reply #14

Baptism is essential to being saved (see citations above). The only time the Bible mentions faith alone is in James 2:24 which does more than imply, it specfically states that we are not saved by faith only. We will not be saved unless we obey the Lord (Hebrews 5:8-9). This includes baptism (Mark 16:16).

Quote

I agree whole heartedly with what you have stated : "Baptism is essential to being saved."

Since Jesus, himself at Mk 16:16, says:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

My question here at this point you have raised, is, what baptism is in view at this passage of scirpture, the Baptism of water for the remission of sins, which John performed, or....... the one John spoke about, when he said;

And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. (Jhn 1:33)

You see, the reason why I ask this is, that many people TODAY, get to themselves, a water immersed type of baptism, and really don't believe anything, especially, when it is performed to them as infants.

So this outward testimonial (manisfestation) doesn't do anything,according to what Jesus is stating in Mk 16:16;

Since the emphasis on baptism according to Jesus, is "He that believeth", and those that don't believe and are baptized (Water immersed), shall be damned in spite of the fact they where water immersed.

So, please clear this up for us..which Baptism is

"essential".

Thank you,

Petro

Quote from: PastorTom on May 29, 2003, 11:26:09 AM

Pastor Tom,

Welcome to the board, I appreaciate your post, and I thinik you have sated what needs to said here, for people to understand clearly.

Accoding to the original post;

In order to be saved, one must be baptized (water immersion).

My understanding of this is not the same, because of these two verses, primarily;

Eph 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

This verse is clearly, making a distinction between the sanctifying and cleansing work of the Word of God, in those who are being set apart day by day, the use of the word "water " in this passage of scripture is symbolic, of the Word of God, which came down from heaven, and gives, life, regenerates life, cleanses the land, and refreshes it,

it is not talking about water batism at all.

Secondly, the next three verses make it even clearer;

Titus 3
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Pet 3
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1 Pet 1
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

The law, which could never make the hearers of it, perfect, had in it the idead of the necessity of being clean, especially when coming before God, Temple, priests, thus the need for washings, for purification.

And as one can see, the Baptism necessary to be clean before a Holy God, could never be attained thru the external, Titus, makes the case for;

the..

"Baptism which is essential for salvation"; and that is the "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Water baptism is after, the fact; the Ethiopian Eunuch, asked;
"See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?"

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:36-37)

Jesus, said to Peter;

But whom say ye that I am?

And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (Mat 16:15-16)

I don't argue, that Christians should not be baptized in water, What I question, is the idea that "Water Baptism" is what saves.

The reason for water baptism is, as has been stated, as a testimony to the world,

I am reminded how when Jesus, cleansed the Leper at Mk 1:40-44, and then said this to him;

color=Red]See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.[/color]

Those who are cleansed by the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, are baptized with the Holy Spirit, it is a work of God, not of man.

Where am I wrong??

Petro

Quote from: Saved_4ever on May 29, 2003, 01:46:21 AM

Quote

Jason, Mardis,

So after saying all you desired to say, you didn't asnwer my question.

What is the work one must do to be saved]/b].

Are either of you able to give an answer??

It satnds to reason that if, you claim one must work to be saved, then you must know what that work encompasess.

Would you please answer my question..

What work must one do to be saved??

When have I EVER said that one must be saved by a "work"? I'm rather surprised you would say that considering past conversations. Unless you consider faith to be a work then no work of man can save you. I'm really not sure why you would think I believe one is saved by works.

Ye are saved by grace, through faith ,and not of yourselves lest any man should boast.

Physical Baptism and any other such thing to merit salvation would be a work of man. All I said was that getting Baptized was biblical, it's a statement of profession to the world.

Jason,

For give me, I read your reply #18, and since it followed mine, I assumed you where directing your response to me, I saw all the verses, which reject work, however, your opening sentence mentioned James 2, that famous verse which everyone uses to prove one must do something to gain salvation.

And since I have asked this question many times, I have yet to get a response.

I see, you don't believe this, my mistake, please accept my apologies.

Blessings,

Petro

My question still stands, to anyone who can answer this, what work must be done in order to be saved??

I have heard this from all kinds of different people who by their own testimoiny are Christians. And not one has been able to answer this simple question ;

what work must be done to be saved??

Petro

Petro, I still do not understand what you are asking by asking, "What is the work one must do to be saved?"

Maybe these scriptures will help.

2 Corinthians 7:10, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

Philippians 2:12, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Hebrews 5:8-9, "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

God gracious gift of salvation cannot be merited. We never deserve salavtion. However, God does not just go around bestowing salvation upon anyone and everyone regardless if they believe or not, repent or not, and if they are baptized or not.

We have faith in God's work of salvation in our lives when we follow what He has told us to do to receive His gracious gift of salvation.

Colossians 2:11-12, "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."

The Bible teaches that to be saved a person must:
To be saved we must hear the word - Romans 10:14-17.
To be saved we must believe - John 8:24.
To be saved we must repent of sins - Luke 13:3-5.
To be saved we must confess faith in Jesus - Romans 10:9-10; Acts 8:35-38.
To be saved we must be baptized (water immersion) - Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Romans 6:3-4.

Abraham was saved by an active and obedient faith, not by faith only - Genesis 12-15:6; James 2:23-24.

Baptism is done:
To be saved - Mark 16:16.
To have sins remitted - Acts 2:38.
Is a water immersion - Acts 8:35-38.
Is done to have sins washed away - Acts 22:16.
Is to have new life in Christ - Romans 6.
Is to have new life in Christ - Galatians 3:26-27.
Is to have sins cut off - Colossians 2:11-12.
Is done to be saved - 1 Peter 3:20-21.

Babies are not candidates for baptism. Before one can be baptized he/she must believe and repent (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). Babies are not capable of either understanding, believing, or repenting, and therefore are not candidates for baptism until they can believe and repent.

Thanks everyone. This has been a great study, and I look forward to our continued discussions.

Petro:

What you call "water Baptism" is just "Baptism" to me. I don't believe that it is just a "testimony to the world" nor that it is a work of "man." I said above, "Baptism is God's act for us. Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes. God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us."

The Lord Jesus Christ says in Mt 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Likewise in Mk 16.16,"The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

These words contain God's commandment and ordinance. You should not doubt, then, that Baptism is of divine origin, not something devised or invented by people. It is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of greatest importance that we regard Baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted. The world is full of those who proclaim that Baptism is an external thing and that external things are of no use. But no matter how external it may be, here stand God's Word and command which have instituted, established, and confirmed Baptism. What God institutes and commands cannot be useless. It is a most precious thing, even though to all appearances it may not be worth a straw.

To be baptized in God's name is to be baptized not by humans but by God himself. Although it is performed by human hands, it is nevertheless truly God's own act. From this fact everyone can easily conclude that it is of much greater value than the work of any person or saint. For what work can people do that is greater than God's work?

Baptism is a very different thing from all other washing, not by virtue of the natural substance but because here something nobler is added. God himself stakes his honor, his power, and his might on it. Therefore it is not simply a natural water, but a divine, heavenly, holy, and blessed water - praise it in any other terms you can - all by virtue of the Word, which is a heavenly, holy Word which no one can sufficiently extol, for it contains and conveys all the fullness of God.

To put it most simply, the power, effect, benefit, fruit, and purpose of Baptism is to save. No one is baptized in order to become a prince, but as the words say, to "be saved." To be saved, we know, is nothing else than to be delivered from sin, death, and the devil and to enter into the kingdom of Christ and live with him forever.

Some will say that faith alone saves and that works and external things contribute nothing to this end. It is true, nothing that is in us does it but faith. But faith must have something to believe - something to which it may cling and upon which it may stand. Thus faith clings to the water and believes it to be Baptism in which there is sheer salvation and life, not through the water but through its incorporation with God's Word and ordinance and the joining of his name to it.

Some may object, "If Baptism is itself a work, and you say that works are of no use for salvation, what becomes of faith?" Yes, it is true that our works are of no use for salvation. Baptism, however, is not our work but God's. God's works, however, are salutary and necessary for salvation. Thus you see that Baptism is not a work which we do but is a treasure which God gives us and faith grasps, just as the Lord Christ upon the cross is not a work but a treasure comprehended and offered to us in the Word and received by faith.

In Baptism every Christian has enough to do to believe firmly what Baptism promises and brings - victory over death and the devil, forgiveness of sin, God's grace, the entire Christ, and the Holy Spirit with her gifts. Here in Baptism there is brought free to every person's door such a priceless gift which swallows up death and saves the lives of all. No greater jewel can adorn us than Baptism, for through it we obtain perfect holiness and salvation, which no other kind of life and no work on earth can acquire.

Quote from: mardis on May 29, 2003, 01:18:02 PM

Mardis,

Thanks for clearing this up, I can see, that you really do believe, man is not saved by any work at all he does, that work is done by God, and that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I have the same problem sometimes, trying to explain something, and it comes out not sound the way I intended it, and it misleads some..

You just didn't explain it quite right..but, know you have..

Thank You,
Petro

Quote from: PastorTom on June 04, 2003, 11:53:04 AM

Dear Petro:

I am saying that when a pastor pours water over someone's head OR immerses them in water and speaks God's word of promise then God saves that person. "The baptized are pardoned, cleansed and sanctified in Christ."

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens. The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament. Pour your Holy Spirit upon name : the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism (Rom 6.1ff).

Am I saying that if someone is not baptized that they can't receive the Holy Spirit? No. Many who aren't baptized still come to faith and faith comes only through the Holy Spirit. That's evident even in the Bible when Peter finds that Cornelius and his household have received the Holy Spirit so he doesn't hesitate in baptizing them.

You might ask, then why is Baptism necessary if we can have faith through the Holy Spirit without it? Baptism is necessary because Christ commands it (Mt 28.19-20) and because in Baptism we die and rise with Christ. God acted in Christ to save us; God acts through Baptism to save us. The baptized are pardoned, cleansed, and sanctified in Christ (Rom 6.3-5).

Shalom

Pastor Tom,

You keep reiterating;

Quote

When the pastor lays hands on the person who is baptized and prays for God's Holy Spirit to come upon this person then we trust in God's promises that this really happens. The prayer that we say in our church is:

"God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we give you thanks for freeing your sons and daughters from the power of sin and for raising them up to a new life through this holy sacrament. Pour your Holy Spirit upon name : the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spririt of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord, the spirit of joy in your presence."

And then quote Rom 6:1,2
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Is this water baptism, which accomplishes what you have been talking about??

I have been with you, up to this point, but here is where we begin to part company.. I trust that you wont be like mardis, in flipping and flopping..

Are you saying that, water baptism, imparts the Holy Spirit??

If this is what you are teaching, please connect the dots for me, using the following scripture;

I have emboldened the princple verse;

Rom 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and,

Col 2
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Eph 4
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Pet 3
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

In the OT, at Eze 36, God promises a washing by the sprinkling of pure water, although it is speaking of Israel, the nation, is it not true, this is the real washing of Israels sin away??

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Blessings,
Petro

Quote from: PastorTom on June 07, 2003, 11:48:03 AM

I thought I was being pretty clear.

In Baptism we die and rise in Christ. "When we were baptized, we died and were buried with Christ. We were baptized, so that we would live a new life, as Christ was raised to life by the glory of God the Father."

Only the Holy Spirit can enable the dying and rising of Baptism, and God's promise is that this is what the Spirit does in Baptism.

Yes, in Baptism we recieve the Holy Spirit.

Can someone receive the Spirit without being baptized? Yes as happens to Cornelius and his household in Acts 10 and as is evident in many people of faith in churches that practice believer's Baptism. Without the Spirit they would not have faith.

Shalom

Pastor Tom,

All believers are saved in exactly the same way as Cornelius and His ousehold were saved, it is clear they had received the Holy Spirit, before they were batized in water.

They had received Faith by Grace , which resulted in the sealing of the Holy Spirit exactly, the same way, that the disciples had, at the day of Pentecost.

Note the scriptures at the First Council at Jerusalem, when Peter testifies, what happened that day at Cornelius's

Acts 15
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

When he referred to Acts 10:45-46.

Please note the words; in verse 9 above, purifying their hearts by faith.

And then, we read at the verse which has been previously quoted;

Col 2
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The circumscision made without hands (verse 11), and the baptism with the Holy Spirit are in view herein at this passage, and are the result of Gods work, in that He had promised to do the same for Israel, and since all believers are saved exacly the same way, for there is no difference between them and us, we can see who He does it;

Eze 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

All this is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, the promise fulfilled by faith in Jesus, to everyone who believes.

The Baptism, the Lord Commanded (water baptism) is not required at all for Salvation, Salvation is accomplished by the Work of God, through the Holy Spirit, this is the Batism, that Jhn spoke of in Jhn 1:33

This made clear by the verse which has been quoted and re-quoted herein,

Mk 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Since "believeth" is the word which clearly distinguishes those who are saved, and those that are damned, herein, one must conclude that water baptism, without belief, is useless.

And since belief, is what determines salvation, it is not focused on the act of water baptism at all, but, in the finished works of our Lord and Savior, our faith being in the operation of God who by the power of ther Holy Spirit raise Him, from the dead, this is why, Paul tells us in;

Rom 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And all this occurs before a person is baptized in water, because Baptism with the Holy Spirit is an act of God, it is evidenced by the sealing of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit testifying to our Spirits that we are children of God, way before we are baptizeed, this is what is called the 'new birth' Jesus spoke of, to Nicodemus.

Of course this is what produces a desire to obey the Lords commandment and everyone should seek water baptism,

And this is the reason, I would never say as "mardis" claims, that water baptism is necessary fgor salvation, this is not what the scriptures teach at all.

This teaching will decieve many, into believing they are saved, because they have said certain words, and had water sprinkled or have been submerged in it , and belong to a church, that teaches it. This then would cause them to focus, on a wrong object for their faith.

I think it needs to be taught, so people do not confuse, which Baptism is the one that matters.

Blessings,
Petro

Quote from: ollie on June 08, 2003, 08:26:52 PM

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

Ollie, I have already written much on this subject, I don't have time to go over it again, I knoiw I have given you the same information at leats twice before, which I plan to write herein now; I am going to be very busy for the next two weeks or so, with my family, I doubt that I will have time to even spend on the correspondence we have been exchanging, but as soon as I get back to it, I'll try and catch up.

But, briefly, allow me to show u some key verses which might shed some light on the subject for you.. I have given these out over and over; even to the point where I wonder why I even get in these conversation with you all, since it appears top me you ignore them and keep on insisting, water baptism some how or other, clinches the deal of receiving the Holy Spirit.

First of all, it is obvious when reading the account of Cornelius at Acts 10, they received the Holy Spirit, excactly as the disciples received Him, on the day of pentecost, the disciples had already been baptized with John's baptism for the repentance of sin. There is no account that the disciples where re-baptized after recieving the Holy Spirit, in fact the scriptures speaks of; "One Lord, One faith, One Baptism (Eph 4:5)

Water Baptism, was what John came forth performing, while declaring; Make straight the way of the Lord, (Jhn 1:23), and his message, was that;

26 I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

again,

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Please note verse 31, the account that John gives us, for the reason he came baptizing with water,

I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel , therefore am I come baptizing with water.

In the vernacular, John says; I came baptizing with water, so, that Jesus might be made manifest to Israel.

What does does this mean??

That Jesus might be revealed to Israel

Does this verse mean something else to you??

At Mat 21:25, Jesus asks;

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?

What is your answer??

I say it was from heaven, why because it was ordained by God himself, to John, and again, let me make sure you see, this, John testified;

33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Now knowing how you think, after all that has been said herein, your going to go to Acts 19; and try to prove that it is necessary to be baptized, in water by the laying on of hands of a priest, reverend or someone, in order to receive the Holy Spirit, but, this is where you are wrong,

Because when one reads the Account of Acts 19:1-7, there is no mention of "water at all", Paul simply laid his hands on these and the "holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Vs 6.

And what is not evident to those who read this passage superficially, is that these men, were unbelievers, who had been baptised with Jhn's baptism (in water) but knew nothing of the Holy Spirit, evidenced by their answer to Pauls question: "Unto what then were ye baptized?" vs 3.

Just because the scriptures at verse 1, say;

Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

Just because the word says these where disciples, it doesnt mean they where disciples of Jesus, or John.

Any carefull reader at this verse, should ask himself

Whose disciples are these, anyhow?

They knew something, but they didn't know anything about the Baptism of the Holy Gohst which was to follow Johns baptism which he preached, in fact they said;

"We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

So it is obvious they where;

1. Unbelievers.

2. Not disciples of John, nor Jesus.

If you read on in Acts 19, there was all sort of things happening by unsaved individuals using the name of Jesus and Paul to exorcize at Ephesus, note verses 13-14.

On the otherhand, when they believed and where baptized by Paul, they recieved the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

In every case the Apostle who baptized in water, did so, after those who were batized believed. And they ejmphasized "believe".

I am afraid you read to much into the scriptures to your own detriment, you assume these were baptized with water.

Now, yes I know Jesus, said to the Apostles;

Mat 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

But they emphasized, belief as being the necessary for salvation, not baptism, and certainly not water baptism to be the real thing.

Now, contrast this passage of scripture with Acts 10:47, where water is mentioned for baptism to them who had not been baptized in water, but had received the Holy Spirit, and note that, the laying on of hands had not been done to this either.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The baptism of with the Holy Spirit is the real thing, and it is performed by God, the baptism of water for the remission of sins, is peformed by man, after one has come to faith and been sealed by the Spirit of Promise, both are perfomed at different times and received by faith, and only when one has been sealed by the Holy Spirit can it be truly said, this person is saved,

Many people today who place their faith in being batized by a priest, or reverend in a church, and have not believed, are damned, that baptism hasn't done anything for them, and anyone that tells them, you are saved don't worry about it, just because they have been baptized, and belong to this or that church, are derelict in their duty as a Christian, in giving out the word of truth.

There is only one baptism that saves, and that is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him, it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.

I now this is mystery to many..

Blessings,
Petro

What is Baptism?

Baptism is not simply plain water. Instead it is water used according to God's command and connected with God's Word.

What the is this Word of God?

Where our Lord Jesus Christ says in Matthew 28.19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

What gifts or benefits does Baptism grant?

It brings about forgiveness of sins, redeems from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe it, as the Word and promise of God declare.

What is this Word and promise of God?

Where our Lord Jesus Christ says in Mark 16.16, "The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned."

How can water do such great things?

Clearly the water does not do it, but the Word of God, which is with, in, and among the water, and faith, which trusts this Word of God in the water. For without the Word of God the water is plain water and not a baptism, but with the Word of God it is a baptism, that is, a grace-filled water of life and a "bath of the new birth in the Holy Spirit." As St. Paul says to Titus in 3.5-8, "He saved us, not because of any works of righteousness that we had done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is sure."

What then is the significance of such a baptism with water?

It signifies that the old person in us with all sins and evil desires is to be drowned through daily sorrow for sin and repentance, and that daily a new person is to come forth and rise up to live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

Where is this written?

St. Paul says in Romans 6.3-4, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

The old sinner's favorite attack on Baptism is to ignore the Word and concentrate on the water. "Water," it sniffs. "Water! Whoever heard of such a thing? You flush your toilets with water and now you say that God uses water to make you certain? Nonsense!"

If that doesn't work, the old Adam or Eve puts on some religion and tries to explain Baptism away. "Oh yes," the old you will say, "the water is a nice symbol. But what really counts is what you do with your Baptism. If you want to be sure of it, you have to make your Baptism complete by doing what God wants you to do."

Either way, whether by scorning the water or calling it a symbol, the old sinful self makes it sound as if Baptism is "water only." The it can be ignored as a quaint ceremony for children or taken as something we have to do before getting down to what's really important: doing good things for Jesus. It's the same story. If the old self doesn't ignore the promise completely, it insists on trying to earn what God will only give as a gift.

But "Baptism is not water only. It is water used together with God's Word." That water and the Word can't be separated, not without losing the sacrament. Apart from the Word, the water is plain, ordinary water. Apart from the water, the Word is still God's Word but the sacrament is gone. The Word and the water go together, the Word telling us what happens in the washing.

"Make disciples of all nations," Jesus said. How does this happen? By "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you" (Mt 28.19-20). This is Christ's Word, telling us what happens in the washing. As the Word is spoken, as the water is washed across our heads, Jesus makes us his disciples, his own beloved people.

So, in the speaking of the Word and the washing of the water, Christ gives birth to the new you in each of us, making us members of his church. Then, after our Baptism, he continues to be with us in the teaching of his Word and the Lord's Supper, sustaining and keeping the new you he has made. "And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age," he says (Mt 28.20).

That's why Baptism rings and sings with so much certainty. Where the old sinner in us can manage to separate the water from the Word, the certainty is lost. But when the Word and the water work together, as Christ promises they do, Baptism is more certain than the sunrise. For Christ himself is present in the Word, with the water, to make us his very own and give us all the gifts he has to give.

There is one more essential ingredient in Baptism: Christ's command. "Go therefore," he says, "make disciples...baptizing them...." That's an order.

Maybe it seems strange that Christ should command such a great and gracious gift. When Baptism is so full of grace, it's hard to understand why the whole world doesn't clamor for it, demanding to be baptized in his name.

But the truth is closer to the opposite. There is no gift, next to Christ himself, that the old Adam or Eve, the world, and the devil hold in deeper contempt. Baptism is the old self's funeral - the birth of the new you. So the old you attacks this sacrament with all the contempt, scorn, spite, malice, and hatred it can muster.

All of the old Adam's attacks on Baptism have the same purpose: to make it appear that it is something we do for God, not something God does for us. As a result, people wind up fearing, loving, and trusting what they do, and Baptism finally doesn't matter. So unbelievers sneer at Baptism as a magic rite we do so we won't be afraid to die. Or the super pious ignore Baptism as if God can't do what he promises and concentrate on their own conversions, decisions for Christ, and experiences as far more important. Either way, Baptism is treated with contempt.

In all of these attacks, the fact that Christ commanded Baptism makes us all the more certain. It is a friendly command, a loving order Christ gives so that we will know how important Baptism is both to him and to us. Because he commanded it, we can be sure that Baptism is no human plaything - something invented by people to make us feel better. And we can be sure, too, that all of the old self's religious strutting about conversions and experiences is just that - strutting and nothing else.

Baptism is God's act for us. Though the pastor speaks the Word and does the washing, God is the one who baptizes. God is at work in every Baptism, putting the Word with the water to grace us. God keeps right on working, too, "to the end of the age" to be sure we're sure - to keep the new you in the certainy that is Christ's trademark.

Shalom

Pastor Tom,

If water baptism, is the baptism, which accomplishes all this you have written, then there was NO need for Jesus to speak of another baptism.

He himself was baptized, and yet, he spoke of another baptism, he would be baptized with, and spoke in this manner to his disciples this way;

Mat 20
22 .............Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: (see the parallel in Mk 10:38-19)

The Apostle Luke writes in;

Acts 1
1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

At;

Acts 8, there was a certain man called Simon who was a sorcerer and had made a big impression on Samaria do to his sorceries, who was baptized with water at verse 13, of whom the scriptures say that he believed and yet remained in his sin, and the others who were baptized also, received not the Holy Spirit (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) verse 16;

But when Peter and John, who were sent from Jerusalem, prayed, for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:vs 15

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

This Simon of whom the scriptures say he believed, he followed Phillip fascinated by the miracles he(Phillip) performed, and since he (Simon) had convinced many that he had "the great power of God" vs 9-10, he desired the gift, that he might impart thre Holy Spirit, for money, evidenced by Peters answer "They money perish with thee" verses 18-24.

So we see, plainly that Simon was a professor not a possessor, and, those who teach salvation by (water) baptism are faced with a dilema here, salvation by baptism with the Holy Spirit is what is required water baptism accomplished nothing because of the lack of Faith, this is a gift from God (Eph 2:8-9), and this was performed by the laying on of hands upon them that had received the Word of God and the preaching of the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, afterwards were given the Gift and sealed by that same Spirit of Truth.

This Simon, from whose name we get the word "simony" (making a business out of that which is sacred) was the forunner of those who seek rather to go to a human mediator
between God and themselves rather than the Lord himself.

That there was no true repentance on simon's part is indicated by his words, "Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me."

He did not repent for his sin, but only for the consequences which might bring on him.

The Apostle Paul himself was given the Holy Spirit, before being baptized (in water) for the remission of Sins, by the laying on of Annias's hands (Acts 9:17-18); note Ananias expresses full fellowship with him by the words which he speaks to Paul;

"Brother Saul", the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

Plainly, from the verse above, he received his sight because he had received the Holy Spirit.

And then finally, the Apostle says this;

1 Cor 1
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Notice please where the emphasis is herein, not in baptism, for this was what caused the contentions here.

If water baptism is all that which is espoused herein by those who put there faith in it, then it seems Paul would have straightened this matter out, but he makes it cleasr, at verse 16, how important baptism is in regards to the preaching of the word, by which people are saved. Undertsnadng that belief in the preached word was more important than the act of baptism.

He ends it by stating;

1 Cor 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Plainly reffering to the passage I began this post with at Mat 20:23.

The disciples understood there baptism was likened to the baptism of John, because they baptized the people with that same baptism while Jesus walked with them, John 4:1-2.

And finally don't kid yourself, those who become children of God, do not because, they have been baptized with water, but because they have received Jesus, since the word is plain to say;

Jhn 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

These are born from that incorruptible seed spoken of by Peter;

1 Pet 1
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And that baptism which is done not with human hands, is what does it; (Col 2:11-12) the baptism into Christ, which puts on Christ.

Gal 3
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Blessings,

Petro

Baptism is rarely mentioned in the Gospels. Jesus is said both to have baptized (Jn 3.22) and to have committed baptism to his disciples (Jn 4.2). The necessity of baptism is stated in Jn 3.5; no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. The disciples are commanded to make disciples by baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Mt 28.19). The word baptism is used metaphorically of the future passion of Jesus (Mk 10.38; Lk 12.50). The metaphor seems to be based upon baptism as the beginning of a new life or a new state, a crisis. In Acts baptism is explicitly reported of almost every individual or group who accepts Christianity (Acts 2.38ff). This baptism is said to be conferred in the name of Jesus (Acts 8.16; 10.48; 19.5); it is unlikely that this phrase indicates the formula employed in baptizing. It rather indicates that the person baptized receives the name of Jesus (Rev 14.1; 22.4), that is, they accept the claims of Jesus and unite themselves to the group which accepted Jesus as its founder and leader. Baptism is also called baptism in the Holy Spirit (Mk 1.8; Acts 1.5; 11.16). This phrase is clearly used metaphorically in Acts 1.5; 11.16; and it is probable that its use in Mk also is metaphorical, signifying the beginning of a new state, a new and critical experience. Elsewhere the Spirit is received with baptism (Acts 19.5 ff). For Paul baptism is the Christian's experience of the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus in themselves (Rom 6.3ff; Col 1.12). Baptism symbolizes expressly not only the beginning of a new life in Christ, but also death to the old Adam or Eve, the old life of sin. By baptism the Christian is washed, sanctified and made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Cor 6.11). Christ sanctifies the Church, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word (Eph 5.26). By this experience the Christian is reborn, regenerated (Titus 3.5). Baptism symbolizes and effects not only the incorporation of the Christian into Christ (Gal 3.27) but also their union with their fellow Christians as members of the one body of Christ (1 Cor 12.13). The Christian is redeemed through the blood of Jesus Christ and the water of baptism (1 Jn 5.6), to which the Spirit testifies. The saving power of baptism is illustrated by the ark of Noah, in which all its passengers were saved by water (1 Pt 3.20).

Baptism is the sign of new life through Jesus Christ. It unites the one baptized with Christ and with his people. The New Testament scriptures and the liturgy of the Church unfold the meaning of baptism in various images that express the riches of Christ and the gifts of his salvation.... Baptism is participation in Christ's death and resurrection (Rom 6.3-5; Col 2.12); a washing away of sin (1 Cor 6.11); a new birth (Jn 3.5); an enlightenment by Christ (Eph 5.14); a reclothing in Christ (Gal 3.27); a renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3.5); the experience of salvation from the flood (1 Pet 3.20-21); an exodus from bondage (1 Cor 10.1-2) and a liberation into a new humanity in which barriers of division whether of sex or race or social status are transcended (Gal 3.27-28; 1 Cor 12.13). The images are many but the reality is one.

God's self giving in baptism is in the gift of the Holy Spirit itself. This is a direct pouring out of God's being, the giver literally is the gift. This Spirit is part of the whole saving movement of the triune God. God our Savior saved us through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life (Titus 2.4-7). Upon incorporation into Christ and the community of faith, one experiences the continuing gift of membership in the community of God's life-giving Spirit.

Shalom

Quote

Pastor Toms reply #49

Baptism is rarely mentioned in the Gospels. Jesus is said both to have baptized (Jn 3.22) and to have committed baptism to his disciples (Jn 4.2).

Lets see, those verses;

Jhn 3
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

Jhn 4
1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples).

You must not have read my last post. I gave you these verse in my last post..

I think you need to look at these verses, a little closer, there is no evidence Jesus baptized, with water, but the scriptures do teach it is HE who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

Quote

. In Acts baptism is explicitly reported of almost every individual or group who accepts Christianity (Acts 2.38ff).

No argument there.

Quote

This baptism is said to be conferred in the name of Jesus (Acts 8.16; 10.48; 19.5); it is unlikely that this phrase indicates the formula employed in baptizing. It rather indicates that the person baptized receives the name of Jesus (Rev 14.1; 22.4), that is, they accept the claims of Jesus and unite themselves to the group which accepted Jesus as its founder and leader. Baptism is also called baptism in the Holy Spirit (Mk 1.8; Acts 1.5; 11.16). This phrase is clearly used metaphorically in Acts 1.5; 11.16; and it is probable that its use in Mk also is metaphorical, signifying the beginning of a new state, a new and critical experience. Elsewhere the Spirit is received with baptism (Acts 19.5 ff). For Paul baptism is the Christian's experience of the passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus in themselves (Rom 6.3ff; Col 1.12). Baptism symbolizes expressly not only the beginning of a new life in Christ, but also death to the old Adam or Eve, the old life of sin. By baptism the Christian is washed, sanctified and made righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God (1 Cor 6.11). Christ sanctifies the Church, cleansing it by the washing of water in the word (Eph 5.26).

Please refer to 1 Pet 3
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This clearly is speaking of the "baptism that saves", washing of water, is not it..

That washing in Eph 5:26 is not physical water, but as you say, metaphorically speaking of the Spirit of God. this made very clearer in;

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Tom,

I feel as though I am wasting my time with you, going back and forth, all these verses I have quoted above, I gave to you in my last post, you simply ignored them, and are cherry pickling verses, to keep arguing, an issue that cannot be resolved this way.

If you addresssed the verses which have been quoted, to you, in there context, I would be compelled to continue, with, but the fact is you are doing the same thing, mardis, and Ollie do.

You just ignore the scriptures giben you, and continue arguing, for the sake of arguing..

All good things must come to an end.

I am outta hear, with you, on this issue..

Thanks for your opinions anyhow..

Blessings
Petro

Quote from: Petro on June 09, 2003, 04:40:05 AM

Quote from: ollie on June 08, 2003, 08:26:52 PM

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

It was not necessary to provide all this information since as you stated you have done it previously.
However I have learned that you misunderstand my position on the Holy Spirit being received.
I do not believe one receives the Holy Spirit during water baptism.

All that was necessary to answer my question was your last paragraph. However you provided no scripture to substantiate it is of God. I asked for Bible references also.

Ollies question:

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

Petro's answer to Ollie's question:

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him, it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.

Where is the scripture?

Quote

Reply #45 posted by Ollie
It was not necessary to provide all this information since as you stated you have done it previously.
However I have learned that you misunderstand my position on the Holy Spirit being received.
I do not believe one receives the Holy Spirit during water baptism.

All that was necessary to answer my question was your last paragraph. However you provided no scripture to substantiate it is of God. I asked for Bible references also.

Ollies question:

Petro,

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

Would you explain it with scripture references?

Thanks,
Ollie

Petro's answer to Ollie's question:

Now what good is Water Baptism, well for one, the significance is not as evident today as it was then, but it is an out ward testimony of an inward need, of being cleansed from sin, washed, but it one of obedience to a command given by the Lord himself, signifying faith in Him, it is the same today as it was then, it identifies you with the risen savior, get baptized, and there is no doubt in the minds of the people that hear about it, in whom you have placed your faith.

Where is the scripture?

Ollie,

Lets take it from the beginning again..

The scriptures tell us, Abraham was declared righteous by God and God promised to establish an everlasting covenant with his son Isaac, God then went on to give Abraham the sign of circumcision as the token of this Covenant.

The OT was sealed in blood, and the sign that the children of God, wore on their bodies was the sign of circumscision; When God made the Old Covenant with Abraham, He said;

Gen 17
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

This them was the sign or token of this Covenant; between Abraham and God; and everyone who was circumcised acknowledged that he was a follower of the God of Abraham and a keeper of this Covenant. Read, Romans 4.

And way over in the book of John, Jesus tells us ;

Jhn 8
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

John reveals to us, that Abraham understood that God would save His people from their sins, by providing himself a sacrifice, as the lamb which God provided, in the day He tested Abraham (Gen 22), and raise Him (Jesus, the Lamb of God) from death for his (Abraham's) own justification. This is what Paul tells us at Hebrews 11:17-19.

Now, the NT also was ratified with blood (the Lord's); the sign Christians received is that of baptism.

You ask;

Quote

What do scriptures teach that baptism with water is for?

The Water baptism, (of John) was one of repentance for the remission of sins, (Mk 1:1,Lk 3:3); it never changed, Jesus asked;

The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? (Jhn 21:25)

, John, himself testifies, it was ordained to him from the One who sent him to baptize in water, (John 1:33), that Jesus might be made manifest to the nation of Israel.

And in Like 7, there is this little passage of scripture, which says this;

29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Note carefully, verse 29, Does anyone justify God? NO!
It is the other way around, God is the one that Justifies; so what does it mean in this verse that God is justified?
Simply this, the Son of Man came ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners (vs 34) that is, He identified himself with those whom He came to bless. And these religious leaders were not happy either way, they accused John of having a devil (he came neither eating bread nor drinking wine), while accusing Jesus of being a glutton and a winebibber, because He ate and drank vs 34.

And yet at verse 35, Wisdom, represented by the Savior himself is justified by Gods children who, are they that justify God's Wisdom, in obeying the call, to repent, and be baptized.

So, then all who admit to being sinners in need of forgiveness of sin, justify the word which condemns sinners, in other words they by agreeing with it, justify it to be just and true.

At the baptism of John, all were baptized, while not yet having believed in Jesus, even the Apostles, were all baptized, before they came to faith in Him, and they baptized with water before the Lord had risen (Jhn 4:1-2).

Now, the point Pastor Tom and mardis have made, was that water baptism, was necessary for salvation, while confessing that water baptism itself does not save, they state that it (water baptism) and baptism with the Holy Spirit is one in the same, however it is plain that if this was so, John would not have spoke of another baptism (Jhn 1:31-33),and them Jesus spoke of another baptism when he spoke to the Apostles, concerning His baptism which He was going to be baptized with, (after being water baptized already by John the Baptist) (Mat 20:22-23)

So to answer your question;

Water baptism serves to identify every person who believes in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, for the sins of sinners.

In other words, "He died for me, and I want the world to Know this."

Continued...................sorry it is so long..

Continuation of my previous post to Ollie..

So recognizing that one must believe and be baptized in order to be saved, we Christians, desire to be baptized in water after we have believed, understanding the to be baptized while in unbelief is a useless act of futility since, Jesus said :

" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mk16:16)

Mat 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Verse 19, above at the word "baptizing", speaks of the a ceremonial ablution ordinance instituted by the Lord himself, to baptize, to wash, to make whelmed, ie:fully wet, to the name of;Father , Son, and Holy Gohst.

Now this begs the question;

When is this to be done; when they become believers?, or while yet in unbelief?

The answer is found in the same verse, since it is obvious not all nations or peoples, will be taught, or allow themselves to be baptized, so, that the answer is; "while yet in unbelief".

So, refer to Mk 16:16, which baptisim is in view here??,

Certainly not water baptism, as they have already been baptized in water them that are baptized with the Holy Gohst, whom John spoke of, and the baptism spoke of in Mk 16:16, is the baptism of the Holy Gohst.

So, you ask what good is water baptism?

It serves to identify those who (just like those of the OT who came to be baptized for repentance for the remission of sins) have a need (desire) to counted among them that want to be cleasned from sin, recognizing and confessing publicly that they are sinners and need to be washed clean by God word, and it is received as an act of Gods mercy and grace, by faith, that their sins are forgiven, and God who knows the heart, baptizes those who believe, having given to them the gift of faith.

Your second question was;

Quote

Would you explain it with scripture references?

To expain it, I would have to reiterate what has already been said.

Here is the verse;

Col 2
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Consider these carefully, all this is by faith, and faith, is the gift of God (Eph 2:8-9) given by His Grace, to them He has elected.

It is a mystery, and it ruffles the feathers of all, who don't want God to be sovereign, especially those who want to have a hand in their own salvation.

Now, there are those who, baptize (sprinkle) infants in water, is this necessary??

The bible is silent, concerning this, in my opinion;

A believeing father and mother, could dedicate their child to the Lord, instead of baptizing it, since it is the believing parent/s that sanctify the child (1 Cor 7:14) many believe this means that they are saved, but not so, it simply means they are set apart, for receiving the truth, but, nowhere will anyone, find that it is necessary to baptize a child, this is an old teaching, introduced by tradition, and has no redeeming value whatsoever, since it is the person who, by his own desire and volition willfully excersices the act of wanting to be baptized in water or, not, and, it has to do with whether one believes God or not, infants aren't even aware what is going on around them, let alone believe anything..

In this age of great deception, I believe that water baptism is better served by performing it to them that have come to faith in Jesus, and have publicly confessed him as Lord and Savior, with their own mouth thru their own words (consider Rom 10:10), in order that others, including them that confess Jesus, will knowingly understand that water baptism is an opportunity for the Christian to publicly identify themselves with the triune Godhead.

They acknowledge that God is their Father, that Jesus is Christ is their Lord and Savior, and that the Holy Spirit in the One who indwells and empowers, and teaches them.

But this isn't taught in churches today, most people that are baptized simply know that they are obediently following a churches ordinance, so their faith then is focused in their act of water baptism and being a member of a church, this is why, they can state;

Baptism is necessary for Salvation, (water immersed) ..

and when presssed for an answer, will testify, it really isn't...

Blessings,

Petro

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Theology => General Theology => Topic started by: mardis on May 16, 2003, 02:32:55 PM