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There is a lot debate today on losing one’s salvation. I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you.

1. Do something that causes you to lose it.  
Now, I don’t know what that “something” could be because Paul never talked about it and since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and the revealer of the body of Christ to us today then he would be the one to tell us what to do to lose it.  Since Paul spent 13 epistles expounding Christ and justification surely he would spend some time on how to lose it!
 
2. Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!

1) Get God to un-forgive you – Eph. 1:7
2) Get God to un-redeem you - Rom. 3:24
3) Get God to un-circumcise you – Col. 2:13
4) Get God to un-adopt you – Rom. 8:15
5) Get God to un-seat you – Eph. 2:6
6) Get God to un-sanctify you – I Cor. 6:11
7) Get God to un-glorify you – Rom. 8:30
8. Get God to un-seal you – Eph. 1:13
9) Get God to un-justify you – Rom. 3:24; 8:30
10) Get God to un-bless you – Eph. 1:3
11) Get God to un-bury you – Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:12
12) Get God to un-raise you – Eph. 2:6
13) Get God to un-quicken you – Eph. 2:1
14) Get God to take Christ out of you – Col. 1:27
15) Get God to take you out of Christ’s physical body – Eph. 5:30
And a few more that I failed to present here.

Now, you se how simple that was – if you can undo all that God has done for you then you are free and clear once again.  Then when you “repent” and get right then all the above 15 things will happen again.  Then when you “sin it away” again then you can undo it all over again!  My what a life!  About as confusing as a termite in a yoyo/

Yes, I know all those verses in Matthew (before the cross) and all those verses in Hebrews and James (doctrinally during the tribulation) and of course Revelation (during the 7 year tribulation where the body of Christ is not present anyway) – Yes, I’ve seen all those verses, had them thrown out of context at me for over 20 years now.

Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!


May God bless  ;)

And may God bless you, GRRRRRREAT message and AAAAAMEN!!!

Well Paul may not have talked about it my friend but Jesus is very clear...

Rev 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  


 Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  


Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  


 Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  


 Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.  

Now, maybe you can "boil that down" and see how easy that is to understand?

Bronzesnake

Thanks for your response - very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17

1. Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus.
2. The church, which is His body, is not the subject of prohecy but the subject of a mystery which has been hid from before the foundation of the world until God revealed it to Paul who then revelaed it to us or at least some of us - so therefore....
3. You couldn't find the church, which is His body, in the book of Revelation if you stayed up all night using an electron microscope.

Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?

But I enjoyed your thoughts - thanks - it's been nice chatting with you  ;)

If you cant find the church in revelation your going to need a bigger microscope.

Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Your also gonna need a map of Pauls journeys.

This was the Church

God Bless

That's convoluted thinking my friend.

Also, you should be very careful when making such statements as the following...

 "Thanks for your response - very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17"

 It's very patronizing, and when we make such comments they often come back and make us look foolish.

The "Church" are Christians. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice at the cross.

Are you trying to tell me that the Church (Christian believers)can not be found in Revelations?

Also, you have a poor understanding of who Revelations is addressed to judging by this statement..."Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus."

Read the very first verse of Revelation...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:

The focus is to "shew unto His servants" we ( Christians)are His servants, the Jews don't believe in Jesus.
He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.

John was a disciple...a Christian.

Revelations is Jesus revealing His plans for the future.

The seven churches are Christian churches, not Jewish Synagogs, so you are wrong right off the bat about the Church not being in Revelations. This entire message was for the Christian churches, read it and see for yourself...

 Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.  

You would do yourself a huge favour to read the following also...

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.  

There's that word again...the one you said I couldn't find with an electron microscope.
You'll also notice that Jesus uses that very same word (Church) each time He address a different Church...notice...

 Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;  

Rev 2:12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;  

Rev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;  

You get the point now? Revelations are addressed to the Church.

Here are more examples of the Church (Christians) in Revelations.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:  

More Christians right here in Revelations, imagine that?
They were left behind after the Rapture, and became saved during the Tribulation hour, which is mankind's very last chance at eternal redemption. So they were murdered because they believed in Jesus... "slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"

 Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?  

Here we go again...Christians in Heaven, while men still remain on earth...how can that be? especially if as you believe, there is no Rapture. Don't ignore the facts my friend, they are here in plain English.


 Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.  

Look at that...white robes were given to them...every one of them. So here they are (Christians) in Heaven and they are wearing white robes so they are in a physical form. Jesus tells them to wait until the rest of the CHRISTIANS who remain on earth are killed as they were.

Want to read in the Bible the exact point where the Rapture is described?
Here ya go...

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door [was] opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard [was] as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  

Wowee! A door was opened in Heaven and a voice which sounds like a trumpet calls out to "come up hither" Where have I read that before??? Oh ya, I remember! look here...

 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  


 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  

What an amazing coincidence!

Here are more Christians in Heaven at the same time John was commanded to "come up hither"

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.  

How do I know the sea of glass are Christians? because they are later clothed in white robes along with their slain brothers who are saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation...look for yourself...

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;  


Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.  

So here are a "great multitude, which no man could number"
of Christians right here in Revelations.

 In chapter 4 we see Christians in Heaven, that is well before the tribulation begins. These are the Raptured Christians. In chapter 6 more Christians begin to enter Heaven through death after they are saved during the Tribulation hour.

So there we have it.

1) Many Christians in Revelations, and you don't need any microscope to find them

2) The Lord Himself tells us that Revelations is a picture of the future for Christians.

3) Solid evidence that prior to the Tribulation hour there are Christians in Heaven.

4) People are saved during the Tribulation hour, are killed for their testimony, and welcomed into Heaven to await the fulfillment of the scriptures, involving the murder of the very last Christian before the second coming, where we are described in Rev 19:14 following Him out of Heaven and down to the earth.


Now instead of taking the "the plain sense of the scriptures" why not try reading the actual truth.


Bronzesnake.

And one more thing.. the church members back then are part of his body. ;)

     Jesus Christ is the focus of Revelation, not Israel or the Church.

Revelation 1:1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

    Bronzesnake,

    While I agree with you on the pre-Tribulation Rapture, I must make it known I believe theres a difference between The Church that is Raptured and those who will become Tribulation Saints. You used the word "Christians" to also describe those who missed the Rapture for not believing in Christ at the time of the Rapture. While the word Christian could apply I perfer Tribulation Saints which conveys that the convert believers after the Rapture of the completed Church, will not be the same as the Church. It is possible for a Tribulation Saint to lose Salvation by accepting ther mark of the Beast, which is impossible to the Church. The Church alone belongs to the age of Grace. When the time of Tribulation and wrath come the age will no longer be Grace and those saved would be Tribulation Saints under a different dispensation than the Church under Grace.

    Revelation 1-3 focus on Christ who is judging His seven Churches. This is the Church age and Church dispensation. Chapter 4 begins with the Rapture of the Church and the shift from present tense events to future tense events. Chapters 6 through 19 deal with Daniel's 70th week, the Great Tribulation, the Wrath of the Lamb to the Second Coming of Christ. Nowhere can the word Churches be found between chapters 4-19 because the Church age is finished and the raptured Church is in Heaven with Christ from Revelation chapter 4 through 19. 19 Times the word "Church" is used in the first 3 chapters of Revelation. From Chapters 4-19 the word used to describe believers became "Saint" as in "Tribulation period Saint" and the dispensation of Grace and the Church age had ended when Christ shouts "come up here" which is the Rapture shout in Rev.4:1.

    For the record, no member of the church will remain behind at the Rapture of the Church which will complete the Church and the mission of the Church on earth. The Church age ends at the Rapture of the Church, the dispensation of Grace ends.

    Those who become believers after the rapture of the completed Church takes place, will become Tribulation Saints. The rules of Salvation will be changed after the Rapture of the Church. Salvation becomes conditional on not receiving the mark of the beast. Anyone who receives the mark can not be saved, they become eternally damned. Many Tribulation Saints will be required to be martyred rather than accept the mark of the beast. Tribulation Saints will not be part of Christ's Church which will be in Heaven complete for the wedding week in Heaven during Chapters 4-19. I suppose you could call them "Christians" but theres a diffenent difference between the Raptured Church and the Tribulation Saints. Thats all I'm attempting to point out.

                                                              Paul2 8)

PART 1


It’s not a matter of doing something to lose it, it is a matter of not doing anything to keep it.  Since we had to add works to our faith to perfect it and keep it alive (since as James teaches faith alone cannot save – James 2:24), we have to continue in those works to run the race so we may obtain (1 Cor 9:24) and work out our salvation (Phi 2:12).  You see salvation is not a one time thing (except at the final judgment when it is decided by God that we accepted the gift properly).  Salvation is a process and that process must be completed.  Even Paul did not count himself as saved.

Phi 3:12-14  Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.   Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


While it is true that Paul was sent to the Gentiles it is not true that he was the only one sent to them.  Peter was the first Apostle to go unto the Gentiles (Acts 10) and he was instructed to by Christ every bit as much as Paul was.  Barnabas was an Apostle (Acts 14:14) and traveled with Paul, so he too is an Apostle to the Gentiles.


He did, but he discusses it in terms of failing to complete the process not in the sense that one is already saved and one loses that final decision.  You just aren’t looking the in the right spots, hopefully the ones I have shown you above will make it clear.


Yes God’s forgiveness stands ready for us to accept, but this does not mean we have to accept it or cannot after once accepting it, later reject the gift.  Howdo we get God to unforgive us?  Simply stop repenting and confessing your sins.  

1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


Actually this verse talks about being justified through the redemption that is in Christ.   This mean that Christ’s sacrifice redeemed us from the eternal punishment and made possible our justification.  To be unjustified all one has to do is again not do the works that perfect and keep alive our faith.  

James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Again this one is easy.  All you have to do to become uncircumcised is break the law, or to put it another way (since we fulfill the law through love now) do not the works that perfect and keep our faith alive.

Rom 2:25  … but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.


We are no longer heirs if we do not pick up our cross and follow Him.  Paul clearly teaches that we must suffer (and that relates to works) with Him if we are to be His co-heirs.

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


As we know we are not currently seated in heaven, we can see this as a future event, since of course salvation is a future event.  So yes if we persevere and obtain the prize we will be seated with Christ in heaven, but only if we continue in proper doctrine and obey the Gospel.

Rom 11:22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1Tim 4:16  Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1John 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Peter 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


Sanctification is something we do.  It is associated with our faith, which is a decision we make freely.  We set ourselves apart for the service of God.  

Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

2Ti 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

But yes you did get it right that sanctification is required for salvation.  But remember sanctification is a process as well, as we prepare ourselves to be vessels of honor.  So that means salvation is a process.

END OF PART 1

PART 2


If you look back just a few verses you see that this glorification stems from the suffering we do with Christ as we take up our cross as I pointed out in response to point 4.  That is why 8:13 tells us we must mortify the deeds of the flesh, which is an ongoing, never ending effort throughout our lives.  It is important to recall that this is not a completed item either as we see in the expectation (future event) in 8:19 and in 8:23 as we wait for the adoption (future event).  So no we are not glorified now but will be when the final determination of our salvation is made at the judgment.


This verse also refers to the end result of a process, one that involves both trust and believing.  Trust and faith are more than mere mental ascent, they are active and involve more than a single one time event.  To truly trust someone you must take their teachings into your heart and act on their instructions.  To truly believe in someone you must not just accept them but also their teachings.  We cannot love God and not keep His word.

1John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Justification is made possible by God’s grace through Christ’s sacrifice, but we must respond to the free gift to apply that grace.  We respond through faith, a living faith which is one perfected and kept alive by works.  This shows that the same process that explains your error in point 7 where you used one of the same verses applies here.

Furthermore as I showed in answer to point 2, where you focused on the wrong term in the verse; we are not justified by faith alone but by our works as well.  Just as Christ taught us to fulfill the law through love.

Rom 13:8 -10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.   For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.  Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


This does not say we are saved, it speaks of the great rewards that await us when we complete the process of salvation and get to heaven.  A blessing has no merit if you toss it aside and choose worldly pleasures over the promise.  Just as Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a morsel of food so too we can lose our blessings by choosing the pleasures of this life over doing the works of love in service of others.


It is good to see that you are aware of the requirement for baptism (a work) for salvation but that does not mean that once you are baptized you can never toss the gift aside.  We should walk in newness of life but that does not mean we always will.  We all sin and if we do not repent (as we are told in 1 John 1:9 as I showed in answer to your point 1) and confess these sins we will not be forgiven them.  Therefore it is clear if we sin unrepentantly we are in affect unburying ourselves.  We become the servants of sin again and so there is no way we can be dead to sin any longer.


Again we see this is clearly a future event as it refers to us sitting with Christ in heaven.  When we are saved, when the final determination of our proper acceptance of the gift is made at the judgment then this will be true.  But since salvation is a process we are not currently raised with Christ, but will be at the end, if we persevere.


This is not referring to salvation this is referring to a part of the overall process.  It refers to the awakening of man which is required to even respond to God.  Until grace is given man cannot even seek God and none of man’s works can approach anything remotely pleasing to God.  When we are given grace we then can respond, we are alive and can make a decision of faith and works to love God in return and accept the gift properly.


God doesn’t take Christ out of us, we remove ourselves from Him by not keeping His word.

1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12  No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

It is we who decide to not abide with Him by not bearing fruit.  Once again we come back to those works of love which fulfill the law, perfect and keep our faith alive.

John 15:2-10  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.  Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.   Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.   I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.   Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.   As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.   If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

END OF PART 2

PART 3


This is a metaphor for the Church as it clearly points out in 5:32.  It is not individual members and thus does not relate to salvation of individual members.  But by the way it is easy to stop being a member of the body by simply leaving the Church.  This is done whenever you begin to hold fast to false doctrines, find yourself refusing to accept the teachings of the Church or refuse to accept their decisions resolving differences between Christians.  It is called an anathema.

Mat 18:17  And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


Actually all you have to do is one of those to put your eternal salvation at risk you don’t have to undo all of them.  But yes it is quite simple.


Your claim of them being out of context is based merely on a dispensational view of scripture that is a man made invention less than 500 years old.  None of the Apostles taught it, Paul never told us to ignore the Words of Christ, or of James or of any of the other Apostles.  No one in the early Church believed in dispensationalism.  There is no support for it in scripture except as a method to twist verses to get them to mean what you have predetermined that you think they should mean.  You error by claiming you are of Paul, that Paul is your only Apostle.  When you deny that the teachings of Christ do not apply to you, then even Paul rebukes you.  

1Co 1:12-13  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?


The point is that God has not done this for you until the final judgment, else what is the judgment for?  These prizes for running the race await us at the end of the race.

END OF PART 3
END

Reponse for Bronzesnake'

Bronze - I really do thank you for our response – I like it when people put some thought into and go for it and I am being sincere.
This was supposed to be about one’s position in Christ not Revelation but if you want to go there, then fine, I’m easy to get along with.  

Now, you said a lot and I’m not sure I even know where to begin. No way to adequately cover what needs to be covered in this post. I read every word of your post and I trust you will do the same for.

“you should be very careful when making such statements as the following...It's very patronizing,///such comments they often come back and make us look foolish.”

Honestly bronze, not worried about this coming back to bite me a bit – been hashing it out for over 22 years now.  I used to believe what you have posted below until I started comparing it with Paul and then I had to regroup and rethink the traditional thinking on the subject – it wasn’t easy.

”The "Church" are Christians. Christians are those who believe in Jesus Christ and accept His sacrifice at the cross.”

Amen, I agree on the salvation part. But, just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38) – there it is the Jewish church in the OT.  Comparing scripture with scripture the word church means “congregation” – see Heb. 2:12 with Psa. 22:22. So, we must be careful when we make a blanket statement about what the church means – context determines the definition.  

”Are you trying to tell me that the Church (Christian believers) can not be found in Revelations?”

Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).  Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?  That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10.

”Also, you have a poor understanding of who Revelations is addressed to judging by this statement..."Revelation is a book of prophecy with Israel as the focus."”

Ok, then show me the body of Christ in the Gospels and the OT.  Show me where the focus is no the body of Christ in Revelation when Paul didn’t breath a word of it to us.  Show me Pauline truths in Revelation.  Show me any Pauline scriptures – I can show you tons of OT references but not body of Christ truth.  

”Read the very first verse of Revelation...The focus is to "shew unto His servants" we (Christians) are His servants, the Jews don't believe in Jesus. He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John.”
 
John was the apostle to the circumcision – Gal. 2:9
Paul as the apostle to the Gentiles – Rom. 15:16
So right off the bat you have a book associated with John who is tied into Israel. Again, because we see servants doesn’t mean it is directed to servants today.
 
”John was a disciple...a Christian.”

Again, John was also the apostle to the circumcision.  Does this mean he was given truth about the body of Christ – look at what John wrote and compare it with Paul – big difference.

”The seven churches are Christian churches, not Jewish Synagogues, so you are wrong right off the bat about the Church not being in Revelations. This entire message was for the Christian churches, read it and see for yourself...”

Then why is the word synagogue used in Revelation?  Again, why do you think because you see the word church it means local churches of today or even the first century since…Rev. 1:4 – John is in the future – he is not looking at church age churches.

”You would do yourself a huge favor to read the following also...”

Yes, I can use a concordance and see the word churches but we’ve covered this before.
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. the emphasis is on the twelve tribes?
Is it a coincidence that in Rev. 12 the emphasis is on Israel (mentioned 3 times through out the epistle)?
Is it a coincidence about the two JEWISH witness of Rev. 12?
Is it a coincidence about all the other Jewish references in Rev:
Rev. 5:5, 8, 10 (Compare with Ex. 19:6 and Deut.); 4 beasts (Ezek.); New Jerusalem (Rev. 21); keeping the commandments (Rev. 22), etc?

”Here are more examples of the Church (Christians) in Revelations.
Rev 6:9”

You see church age saints  – I see tribulation saints not body of Christ.
According to Eph. 1-3 the church, which is His body is in heaven, far above all principalities and powers – not on earth during the tribulation.  Why would the Lord drag His body down to earth to go through the tribulation?  Doesn’t match Paul - II Tim. 2:7.

”Don't ignore the facts my friend, they are here in plain English.”

Well, at least I’m still your friend but you are ignoring the book as a whole and reading into it a truth you and others have been taught for years is there but it is not – sorry.

”Look at that...white robes were given to them...every one of them.”

Makes good preaching but poor doctrine.  When God saved me I did not get white robes I became the righteousness of Christ in Him – Rom. 3:22 – robes not are associated with saints anywhere in Paul’s epistles.

”Want to read in the Bible the exact point where the Rapture is described?”

Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before.

”Rev 4:1 which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.  “

I think Christ is talking to John – see vs. 2 “I” (John) – not us in this age. Earlier this phrase is mentioned in Rev. 1:1 and it is not talking to us but John. Makes exciting preaching – poor doctrine.

”Wowee! A door was opened…Where have I read that before???
”1Th 4:16 1Th 4:17 - ”What an amazing coincidence!”

What an amazing misplacement of a second-advent event!
Yes, I said end of tribulation – second-advent references to a catching away of tribulation saints at the end of the tribulation.  I used to think that was referring to a pre-tribulation rapture but after careful study it is a second advent reference not a church age reference.  

”1) Many Christians in Revelations, and you don't need any microscope to find them”

The word “Christian” appears nowhere in the book.

I’m bewildered but not surprised – been dealing with this teaching for years.  The reason so many are so confused over this is because they just don’t know the unique place the body of Christ has in God’s plan – plain and simple.

Look Bronze, I’m not trying to take anything away from you.  I’m trying to give you a blessing.  The body of Christ is a heavenly body sitting in the heavenly places right this moment.  If you are saved then you are in Christ and Christ is at the right hand of the Father, which puts you in eternity at this moment.  The body of Christ is a not an earthly calling – that is for Israel and the Gentile nations.  We are not coming down again to earth – we have been purposed to sit far above the heavens and display the manifold wisdom of God for eternity (Eph. 3:10). Isn’t that great!?!?!?!  

I’m trying to open up the heart here – we have a position like no other ever has – the tribulation is for the establishing of an earthly kingdom for Israel, which was the subject and theme of the OT.  We are not in the OT – we are a mystery hidden from all till Paul got it from the Lord.  

With that – I’m drained but game.  If you want to carry on I’m interested.

May God bless  :)

DITTO ;D

Amen AVBunyan  Amen

Jesus Christ is the focus of Revelation, not Israel or the Church.
Paul2 - Amen - I don't have a problem with your statement:

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I'm just trying to show the emphasis Christ is putting on Israel not the church which is His body - the body of Christ is not going through any part of the tribulation.

By the way - I believe I thess. 4 and I Cor.15 are end of  tribulation references - I lean towards:

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

May God bless  :)

AVBunnyan quote...

"Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before."

I apologize, I guess I was getting carried away with myself wasn't I?

You know, it's very hard to judge a person's demeanour through reading some text, and sometimes we mistake a person as having a boastful attitude. That seems to be what I did when you said things such as...

 "I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you."

or...

"Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!"

or...

"very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17"

That implies that I am beneath your standard of understanding doesn't it? It implies that you have all the right answers doesn't it?

then there's ...

"Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?"


 All very patronizing, and almost self righteous my friend, you will probably concede that?

I do believe you are an honest Christian and most likely a really nice person. If we actually ever met, we would no doubt become friends and all these childish barbs that we callously toss around would be shelved.

I do however, believe in pre-Trib Rapture. I honestly feel that your position and explanation of some of the scriptures in Revelation are some-what weak.

It's senseless for us to keep going at one another verse vs verse, but I will give a few quick examples.

 For starters you referred to ...

just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38)

Your point is well taken, however, we must take these verses in their proper context. The church in the wilderness was not the "Jewish church" that you believe it was. It was a direct reference to John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness about Jesus.

Then there's this comment about not being able to find the church (Christians) in Revelation....

"Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).

Without trying to sound brash, I must say that is just convoluted thinking. It appears that you are playing word games to try and side step the truth... semantics.

 Believers of Jesus are the church, on earth or in Heaven...period.

You took a single verse..."Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:  " ...

and tried to use it to suggest we are not considered His church until we are in Heaven. Of course you are forced into it, other-wise you would have to concede that the church is all over Revelations.

 Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?

Who said that?... We get Raptured before the Tribulation, and we return with Jesus after the Tribulation as is clearly described in Rev 19:14 at that point the game is over, if you read on that's when Jesus kicks some serious bum.

 That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10."

Here, again you are totally ignoring what Jesus said in the opening verses of Revelations.

Please read it out loud to yourself...honestly, and listen to what Jesus says.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:  

God gave Jesus Christ the Revelation of Christ to show His servants ( that's us, no matter how you slice it my brother) what is about to happen. It's so plain and simple, but if you refuse to believe that the church (Christians) are the servants which is spoken of here, then you will be hopelessly confused as to what's going on.

 The seven churches that Jesus warns are Christian churches. It is a matter of historical reality that those churches have been identified by historians as the very first Christian churches, and they are located (or were located) in the exact locations that the Bible places them.

Jesus is warning us to be ready for His imminent return.

Like I said it makes no sense going back and forth, so I will finish my part of this debate with the following...

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  


 Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Think about it. God says the coming of the son of man is near when the conditions on earth are as they were in the days of Noah. Everyone of the non believers were carry on in their lascivious lifestyles with no cares or worries. They laughed at the crazy man who was building a huge boat!

That's right, God supplied a way of escape for the believers, and He says it will be the same this time also, only this time our escape is when Jesus calls us to "come up hither"

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The church is found in Revelations. What do you think those seven churches are?... remember, they are historically proven to be the first Christian churches, but you seem to believe that when they are mentioned in Revelations, that by some mystical power-flip, they are no longer Christian churches.

Your brother in Jesus...
Bronzesnake

AVBunnyan quote...

"Bronze – I’m trying to be gracious here while you are treating me like a kid.  I think I’ve seen the “rapture” verses before."

I apologize, I guess I was getting carried away with myself wasn't I?

You know, it's very hard to judge a person's demeanour through reading some text, and sometimes we mistake a person as having a boastful attitude. That seems to be what I did when you said things such as...

 "I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you."

or...

"Undo all that God did at your salvation.  
See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.  OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!"

or...

"very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17"

That implies that I am beneath your standard of understanding doesn't it? It implies that you have all the right answers doesn't it?

then there's ...

"Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?"


 All very patronizing, and almost self righteous my friend, you will probably concede that?

I do believe you are an honest Christian and most likely a really nice person. If we actually ever met, we would no doubt become friends and all these childish barbs that we callously toss around would be shelved.

I do however, believe in pre-Trib Rapture. I honestly feel that your position and explanation of some of the scriptures in Revelation are some-what weak.

It's senseless for us to keep going at one another verse vs verse, but I will give a few quick examples.

 For starters you referred to ...

just because we see the word “church” doesn’t mean it is the church, which is His body. How about the church in the wilderness (Acts 7:38)

Your point is well taken, however, we must take these verses in their proper context. The church in the wilderness was not the "Jewish church" that you believe it was. It was a direct reference to John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness about Jesus.

Then there's this comment about not being able to find the church (Christians) in Revelation....

"Yes, that is exactly what I’m saying.  The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.).

Without trying to sound brash, I must say that is just convoluted thinking. It appears that you are playing word games to try and side step the truth... semantics.

 Believers of Jesus are the church, on earth or in Heaven...period.

You took a single verse..."Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:  " ...

and tried to use it to suggest we are not considered His church until we are in Heaven. Of course you are forced into it, other-wise you would have to concede that the church is all over Revelations.

 Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?

Who said that?... We get Raptured before the Tribulation, and we return with Jesus after the Tribulation as is clearly described in Rev 19:14 at that point the game is over, if you read on that's when Jesus kicks some serious bum.

 That is not the purpose of the church!  The purpose of Revelation is the consummation of God’s plan regarding the nations and Israel.  Paul revealed the completed plan for the church in Ephesians and Colossians – Col. 1:25 and Eph. 3:10."

Here, again you are totally ignoring what Jesus said in the opening verses of Revelations.

Please read it out loud to yourself...honestly, and listen to what Jesus says.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:  

God gave Jesus Christ the Revelation of Christ to show His servants ( that's us, no matter how you slice it my brother) what is about to happen. It's so plain and simple, but if you refuse to believe that the church (Christians) are the servants which is spoken of here, then you will be hopelessly confused as to what's going on.

 The seven churches that Jesus warns are Christian churches. It is a matter of historical reality that those churches have been identified by historians as the very first Christian churches, and they are located (or were located) in the exact locations that the Bible places them.

Jesus is warning us to be ready for His imminent return.

Like I said it makes no sense going back and forth, so I will finish my part of this debate with the following...

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  


 Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Think about it. God says the coming of the son of man is near when the conditions on earth are as they were in the days of Noah. Everyone of the non believers were carry on in their lascivious lifestyles with no cares or worries. They laughed at the crazy man who was building a huge boat!

That's right, God supplied a way of escape for the believers, and He says it will be the same this time also, only this time our escape is when Jesus calls us to "come up hither"

Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The church is found in Revelations. What do you think those seven churches are?... remember, they are historically proven to be the first Christian churches, but you seem to believe that when they are mentioned in Revelations, that by some mystical power-flip, they are no longer Christian churches.

Your brother in Jesus...
Bronzesnake

Part I - got long-winded

Thanks Bronze for you reply and putting up with me - I know it is rough - I have to put up with me everyday ;D

You said (in quotes):

“I apologize, I guess I was getting carried away with myself wasn't I? “

Fine, brother – this is a forum.  I have been guilty of being smart-mouthed; misjudgments, and just flat out ungracious, and worse.  I have to watch myself and others, such as you, have helped me watch also and I thank your for the mild rebuke.  I do apologize if I came across with a wrong attitude that is not becoming the gospel of Christ.

I see you did have a problem with some of my statements – please allow me to explain some and then we’ll get on with the meat.  Overall my purpose of this thread was aimed at two groups:
1. “Salvation stealers” – those people who believe they can lose and seek with all zeal and power to rob saints of their position in Christ.  To them I’m a bit cynical and maybe have gone to far but I grow weary with these people who seek to rob saints of their blessings in Christ.
2. To encourage those who may be wrestling with just how secure they are in Christ.

Now, let’s look at what you are concerned about and move on.

 "I’ve decided to boil it down to 2 simple steps to make it easy for you."
Yes, a touch of sarcasm for the #1 group. I admit not real spiritual but an attention-getter for them.

"Undo all that God did at your salvation.”  
Being serious here – again trying to create an attention-getter (I used to be in advertising for 10 years).

“See how easy it is! Now, let’s go down a simple list of things that God did and all you have to do is make this list your check list and mark them all as you undo them.”
Again applies to #1

“OK put your tennis shoes on and let’s go!!!"
Just trying to be light – no sarcasms or cuteness intended here.  

"very easy to handle if you know how to rightly divide the scriptures - II Tim. 2:17 -
That implies that I am beneath your standard of understanding doesn't it? It implies that you have all the right answers doesn't it?”

I’m sorry if you took it that way – borderline sarcasm – frustration here – wasn’t trying to be smart here.  But I was trying to be truthful.  The issue is easy once one understands right division.

"Why not take the plain sense of the scriptures Paul presents for your eternal security instead of fleeing into the tribulation in order to try and lose your salvation?"
Being serious as a heart attack.  Again may apply to #1 a bit.

”All very patronizing, and almost self righteous my friend, you will probably concede that?”

Let’s look at Webster:
PAT'RONIZING, ppr. Defending; supporting; favoring; promoting.
Yes, I was defending according to the word you used – I don’t’ see anything wrong with this.  Self-righteous? No.  Pride – probably – I’ll concede that.

”I do believe you are an honest Christian and most likely a really nice person. If we actually ever met, we would no doubt become friends and all these childish barbs that we callously toss around would be shelved.”

I thank you for those kind words.  I seek to be gracious but sometimes the flesh wins out – bummer!!! I believe we are friends and if you are saved (as you say you are) we are brothers in Christ – and you will have to spend eternity with me – sorry!!! Just kidding.

”I do however, believe in pre-Trib Rapture.”

I also believe the church is getting out – how, I’m not sure – I lean towards Col. 3:1-4 not I Thess. 4 and I Cor. 15 which I believe are end of tribulation rapture verses dealing with tribulation saints.

“I honestly feel that your position and explanation of some of the scriptures in Revelation are some-what weak.”

Fine, I can deal with that – I told you it goes against the flow of modern Christianity.  

“The church in the wilderness was not the "Jewish church" that you believe it was. It was a direct reference to John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness about Jesus.”
 
Really then what do these verses mean?

Acts 7:36  He brought them out, after that he had showed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
Acts 7:37  This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
Acts 7:38  This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Brother – the church there is the Jewish congregation, which came out of Egypt.  Please show me where it is John the Baptist preaching in the wilderness about Jesus.  What am I missing here – I’m trying to see you point – maybe we are just not communicating.

Then there's this comment about not being able to find the church (Christians) in Revelation....

"The church, which is His body (Eph. 5:30; 1:22,23, etc.), is not an earthly people in God’s eyes but a heavenly people seated in the heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:6, etc.)…I must say that is just convoluted thinking. It appears that you are playing word games to try and side step the truth... semantics.”

I am not and will seek to explain.

”Believers of Jesus are the church, on earth or in Heaven...period. “

Yes, your body is here but the real you that God sees in Christ is in heaven where Christ is because you are in Christ – that is your position – you state is down here.

You took a single verse..."Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:  " ...and tried to use it to suggest we are not considered His church until we are in Heaven.”

You misunderstand my position – I understand – not upset – please allow me to explain.
We are considered His church right this minute.  When a person is regenerated by the work of the Sprit – Col. 2:9-11; Tit. 3:5 he is placed into Christ’s body and he becomes a member of the body of Christ.  

Here is the mystery:
Christ in you - Col 1:27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
And…You in Christ – Eph. 1:1; II Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:13, etc.  

Remember what our Lord said?  John 3:13  And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.  
Good picture of you – you are here but in heaven at the same time because you are literally in Christ – yes, strange but that is why the body of Christ is so unique and different than anything before.  This was not revealed until the Lord revealed to Paul during his prison stay after Acts 28.

”Christ’s body suddenly comes down from heaven to go through the tribulation?
Who said that?... We get Raptured before the Tribulation, and we return with Jesus after the Tribulation as is clearly described in Rev 19:14 at that point the game is over, if you read on that's when Jesus kicks some serious bum.”

Ok, I see what you are saying – what I am saying is “if” (and I’m not sure) we come down to do battle at the end of Rev. 19 it is still at the end.  The church is not in Revelation until that time if we agree on Rev. 19 as being the body of Christ.

”Here, again you are totally ignoring what Jesus said in the opening verses of Revelations. Please read it out loud to yourself...honestly, and listen to what Jesus says.
Rev 1:1…God gave Jesus Christ the Revelation of Christ to show His servants ( that's us, no matter how you slice it my brother) what is about to happen.”

II Tim. 3:16 – it is written for us but not to us doctrinally.  Yes, we are servants but not those servants – we don’t need to know what is going to go on in the Tribulation like those people will need to know. If we are raptured as you say then why would we be concerned about an earthly event except for the sake of knowing the scriptures for now while we are here reading God’s revealed word?

It is a matter of historical reality that those churches have been identified by historians as the very first Christian churches...”

Fine – have you considered that after the rapture takes place that there could be a transitional period (likes Acts was) until the tribulation comes in and this gives time for the raising up of these churches again?  You say I’m grasping at straws.  OK then if they are body of Christ churches then we are going through the tribulation for Rev. 4 is not a rapture – it is John being caught up with Jesus not a church.

See part II

Part II

”Jesus is warning us to be ready for His imminent return.”

He is warning some but not us – we are involved with the Second Advent – you are assuming His return:” refers to the rapture of or Second Advent? I say advent for in the catching away Christ does not return to earth – the advent he physically returns and puts his feet down.

”Like I said it makes no sense going back and forth, so I will finish my part of this debate with the following...”

Makes sense to me – it is just time consuming – Rom. 10:17

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

These verses put you slab dab in the midst of a Jewish tribulation.  When Jesus expounded these truths there was no such thing as the body of Christ at that time – not until Christ chose to reveal it to Paul after Acts 28 – though it was forming from the middle of Acts onward.

”Think about it. God says the coming of the son of man is near when the conditions on earth are as they were in the days of Noah.”

Yes, but don’t confuse these Second Advent verses with rapture verses – makes exciting preaching but poor doctrine.

”That's right, God supplied a way of escape for the believers, and He says it will be the same this time also, only this time our escape is when Jesus calls us to "come up hither"”

I believe that our “out” is Col. 3:1-4 and the come up hither I’ve mentioned my view already.

”The church is found in Revelations.”

Yes, a church and some local churches but not the body of Christ – we just disagree.

I’ll say once again.  The church today does not understand the uniqueness of Paul and the mystery that Paul revealed regarding the unique place and purpose God has for the body of Christ.  You say my thinking is convoluted (Rolled together) but I can say the same for your thinking.  You have run the body of Christ doctrine in on Kingdom age doctrine and tribulation truths thus missing the purpose of the body of Christ for eternity (Eph. 3:10).

Well, I’ve gotta go.  I enjoyed the chat and appreciate the time and effort you have put in your post.   :)

Response for Micahel_legna

Thanks Michael for your long response – you put some time into this and I thought it would only right to respond in some way.

You used this verse to show Paul was not saved:
“I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.”

Paul was pressing towards the mark – not salvation.  Paul already said he was saved and was confident of whom he was trusting:

2 Tim 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Phil 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

“He did, but he discusses it in terms of failing to complete the process not in the sense that one is already saved and one loses that final decision.  You just aren’t looking the in the right spots, hopefully the ones I have shown you above will make it clear.”

I just showed you where Paul was pressing towards a mark not salvation.

“How do we get God to unforgive us?  Simply stop repenting and confessing your sins.  
1 John 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

So, your salvation is based upon our forgiveness?  Mine is based upon Christ.
Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Also, if your salvation is based upon your confessing your sins then you will be confessing forever.  I’m not sure that you understand the full magnitude of what sin and sins are for if you knew then you know you would be hopeless in trying to confess all of them.  Read Rom. 7.  

If you believe Christ died for your sins 2000 yrs ago then which ones did he die for?

“To be unjustified all one has to do is again not do the works that perfect and keep alive our faith.”

Maybe a good study on justification, propitiation, sanctification, glorification, reconciliation and redemption would be a good study for you.  Look at the definition of justification from Webster’s:

4.  In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

“All you have to do to become uncircumcised is break the law”

Really – since this was a spiritual circumcision then if you break the law then God does the work of uncircumcism again and then when you get right he spiritually uncircumcises you and the when you mess up….never ending it appears!!!  

My friend let’s not go any further – I was planning on responding to every line you wrote out but we have to stop here.  Now I am really burdened for you.  I respectfully suggest you live a sinless life for that is your only chance and guess what you can’t so you are in a mess – so…flee to Christ!  It appears you are not counting on Christ to save you.  Let’s review and see what you are counting on to save you – below is taken from your remarks on the three posts regarding your duty:

a. You not breaking the law.
b. You keeping the law.
c. You repenting of your sins.
d. You asking forgiveness.
e. You confessing your sins.
f. Picking up the cross and following Christ.
g. Preparing your self to be a vessel of honor
h. Mortifying the deeds of your flesh.
i. Faith which is one perfected and kept alive by works - we are not justified by faith. alone but by our works as well.  
j. The requirement for baptism.
k. Not to sin unrepentantly.
l. Making sure you don’t remove yourself from Him by not keeping His word.

Now, review what you have here.  The above is a pure works salvation.  It appears you are not counting on Christ to save you according to your own remarks.  It appears you are counting on you either doing or not doing something.  According to your own remarks it appears that you believe that Christ opened the door and it is up to you to get through it wit confessions, repentance, holy living, etc.  It doesn’t work that way.  

If I am misrepresenting you then please clear me up.  If anybody else out there thinks I am misrepresenting Michael then please clear me up on this matter for this is improatant and I do not want to come across hard.

Conclusion
I believe you are confusing the saints standing in Christ with the saint’s practical walk down here.  You are seeking to count on your practical sate down here to give you a sinless standing before God.  Get your standing in Christ settled and the practical will come.  You are confusing your practical thinking it is your standing.

May God bless.

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

PART 1


But yet you did not respond with any real effort.  At first you looked like you were going to put in some effort, but that didn't last long.  When you saw how hard it would be to defend your position and not be forced into disagreeing with scripture you decided to ignore my individual points and resort to offering advice as if you were my teacher.  This type of demeaning behavior is not going to do anything to strengthen your doctrines appeal or prove its validity which I assume was your goal when you made the initial bold claims you now seem so unready to actually defend.


Interesting how you pull this one reference out of the verse and ignore the rest of it which speaks so much more forcefully to the issue.

Phi 3:12-14 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Note too the surrounding discussion (taking the scripture in context) is about salvation.  In Phi 3:8 Paul talks about winning Christ (a clear reference to salvation), in 3:9 he talks about righteousness through faith (a clear reference to salvation), in 3:10 Paul goes on to discuss knowing the power of His resurrection (a clear reference to salvation), and finally 3:11 he comes right out and says he hopes by any means he might attain the resurrection of the dead (another clear reference to salvation).  The fact that miss this and you don't even bother to offer  another explanation or interpretation of what this "mark for the prize" might be shows just how weak your doctrine is with regard to this verse.


How do you get from this that Paul is claiming he is saved?

Paul is saying that for a cause (what cause - the teaching of the Gentiles as is mentioned in the verse just before 1 Tim 2:11) that he is suffering.  Paul goes on to say that he trusts Christ and His ability to keep that which Paul has committed to Him, but Paul does not say that he is absolutely assured that he will be able to persevere or continue to the end.


Again we have Paul expressing confidence in Christ not failing us but this is not saying that Paul has confidence that he will not fail Christ.  There is nothing in this statement that says Paul already considers himself saved.

But the real point you need to recognize here is that simply throwing other verses at an issue without offering an alternative interpretation for the ones offered by others as relevant is simply putting scripture at odds with itself and we both no it does not contradict itself.  That is why I have put out the effort and offered an alternative interpretation for all the verses you offered as relevant showing they are not saying what you think they do.


No the verses you offer did not show this.  

Additionally, the fact that you offered them without an accompanying interpretation is also displaying the weakness of your doctrine.  If you don't care enough to show how the verse you claim is relevant is to be properly interpreted I guess I should not be surprised that you did not put out the effort to address the verses I offered (with interpretations).



Yes, in fact the whole reason Christ became man and died on the cross was to make the forgiveness of our sins possible.  He established a new covenant, a new economy of salvation, where God can judge us not as a legalistic literal Judge who has fatherly tendencies, but because we are now co-heirs with Christ, so God becomes our father who is just.  The difference is subtle but is similar to the change we see in our relationship to the law.  Before Christ's sacrifice we were required to satisfy the letter of the law, which we could not do.  That is why Paul teaches that the letter of the law kills, but the spirit brings life.  Christ did not do away with the law He came to fulfill it, and to teach us how to as well.  We needed to understand that God desires mercy not sacrifice, so we can fulfill the spirit of the law through love.


This of course is just saying that the forgiveness we need for salvation (a forgiveness you belittled above) is due to Christ's blood (or by implication His sacrifice).  Granted we could not be forgiven if not for Christ, but the point you miss is that if Christ had not gained that forgiveness for us we would still be under the old covenant and salvation would be impossible.


Baptism covers the sins of mankind (original sin).  Beyond that sins are only applicaple to us if we know of them.  You cannot sin unintentionally, so you cannot sin unknowingly.  

But within my own life and my own actions - Yes, I try to repent and admit my sins everytime they occur.  If I don't it is pretty clear that I do not really see them as hurtful toward a loving relationship with God.

1Cor 8:3  But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Here we see that if I do not love God then I am not known of Him.  I feel I have to point out that this is a clear reference to salvation, since you show yourself to miss them so frequently.  The reasons is that God does not save those He does not know, He sends them away.  

Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

END OF PART 1

PART 2


He died to pay the eternal punishment for our sins.  This propitiation is offered to us through God's grace as a gift.  But it is a gift we must accept.  How we are to accept it is told to us in His instructions to us throughout the Gospel.  Those instructions make it clear we are under a new economy of salvation as I stated above.


This approach is merely offensive rather than informative and does nothing to support your doctrine nor does it address the issues I raised and supported with scriptures.  To insinuate that I need to do such a study and by implication that you don't or already have is arrogant.  It is in short a cop out and shows you did not put any effort into considering the issues I raised.

The logic is simple.  If we accept the free gift of grace through faith, as Paul says.  And that faith must be living faith not a dead one as James teaches.  Then that means works must accompany that faith to properly accept the free gift.  If works are required then if they cease then the faith dies and the grace is no longer accepted by us.  Without holding onto the free gift we lose our justification.


Webster's definition of justification is biased toward a Protestant understanding of the term since he was a Protestant working in a Protestant country.  As such it is of course unreliable as an objective definition.

So maybe we should look to the scriptures for a definition of who is justified.

Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

This seems to fly right in the face of Webster's claim that all that is needed is God's grace.  True without His grace we would not be able to respond to the free gift in a manner that is acceptable.  But we still have to respond, it is not as Webster would have us believe that we play no role in our own salvation.

The atonement of Christ's is not imputed to us, it is infused into us, and so is the justification that goes along with it.  We are not merely hidden, we must be converted.  His atonement makes possible a new relationship with the Father and our cooperation with grace allows our justification and sanctification to increase until final justification and glorification in heaven.


Yes, until we die and are judged it is a never ending process.  As long as you are sincere in your repentance and not merely taking advantage of the system.  You cannot be thinking to yourself - you can sin and repent when ever you feel like it with no real intention to try to stop sinning.  This would not be acceptable but any other sins can and will be forgiven if you truly repent.

Why is it you attack my interpretation but ignore the verse I base it on?  

Rom 2:25 ... but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Seems to me that Paul is clearly saying that physical circumcision can be undone through our sin.  And if physical circumcision can be undone then it must be true of spiritual circumcision since it is certainly easier for spiritual circumcision to be undone than physical.

You not only don't offer an alternative interpretation, you don't even offer a reason why my interpretation is wrong.  One would be tempted to think it is because you can offer no better interpretation.


I was hoping you would try to respond to every line I wrote because your failure to come up with acceptable rebuttals would show you the fallacy of your doctrine.  But since you are apparently not "burdened" enough for me, to actually expend any effort, you have decided to avoid the inherent questioning of your ideas that would occur.


You error on two counts.  First you assume that we are being judged as in the old testament with respect to the law.  But Christ has taught us not to try to fulfill the letter of the law (which we could never even come close to) but fulfill the spirit of the law instead and we do that easily (though admittedly not perfectly) by loving God and loving one another.

The second mistake you make is that if we fail we have no recourse and are as you put it in a mess.  But doctrine denies the merciful nature of God.  As I showed you in referencing 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  Another verse you fail to respond to, or to specifically critique my interpretation or even to offer your own.  Funny how "burden" affects some people into action and others into hiding.


I am counting on Christ sacrifice to make the new economy of salvation a possibility.  But I am also relying on His teachings to show me how to respond to this new covenant as I know he expects me to open the door when He stands at it and knocks.  I accept Christ in all His roles including shepherd, while you appear to focus on Him in just His role as sacrificial lamb.  You cannot truly believe in Him unless you believe in His teachings too.


But of course you quote my interpretations but for some reason fail to quote the scripture these interpretations are based on.  I know why you do this - you don't your doctrine to be compared directly to scripture as it would appear to contradict the word of the God.  


No not pure works.  Salvation is from grace.  It is a free gift accepted through faith, a living faith.  A living faith cannot exist independent of works or it becomes dead.  I focused on this last aspect of the process of salvation because I knew we both agreed on the importance of grace and faith.  Our differences lie in the role our works play in our salvation and so that is why I showed these applicable verses and of course offered my interpretations (as is only proper), since I do not fear my doctrine being compared to scripture.

END OF PART 2

PART 3


Your doctrine says it doesn't work that way, but your doctrine is wrong.  I have shown (and you have ignored or avoided) scripture that says we do have a role to play in our own salvation.  But to avoid any future misunderstanding I will add right now that these works do not merit our salvation, they are merely loving obedience as we are instructed to do in the Gospel as the proper means to accept the gift.


You did misunderstand a few minor points (such as why I focused just on the works aspect of salvation) but in general you did not misrepresent my position.  What you did do was ignore the scriptures it is based on and avoided holding your own doctrine up to the light of scripture by offering interpretations to the scriptures provided by yourself or in answer to the ones I provided.


No I am not confusing them.  Works do play a role in our walk but they also play a role in our salvation as well.  If works were just the fruits of faith they would not be able to perfect our faith.  Work affect our faith, faith affects our acceptance of the free gift of salvation, thus works affect our salvation.

I would like to see your response to all the verses I base my posts on.  But this time if you want to prove your point offer more than arrogant advice as if your were my elder.  Try offering scripture with interpretations to support your doctrine and stop hiding from the ones I have offered.

END OF PART 3
END

Michael said:

"But yet you did not respond with any real effort.  At first you looked like you were going to put in some effort, but that didn't last long.  When you saw how hard it would be to defend your position and not be forced into disagreeing with scripture you decided to ignore my individual points and resort to offering advice as if you were my teacher."

Michael, I read every word of your 3 posts and as I indicated I planned on responding to each and every word but after getting started I realized where it was going.  After dealing with this subject for over 22 years I immediatedly assessed your stand based upon what you presented and stopped and summarized.

To assume that I quit because I felt it was to hard to defend my position is wrong thinking on your part.  I'm been on 4 forums now defending eternal security and there is nothing I haven't seen or have not responded to.  Just go check out the other big forums and see if I'm afraid to tackle your type of posts. Out of respect for the time you put in I felt you deserved a response but after a while I deemed it necessary to stop and deal with the real issue - salvation - not eternal secrurity.  To even read your posts takes time and to respond takes even longer but I was willing to do so until it dawned on me what was going on and then I stopped for I assessed where you were real quick.

If you couldn't see what I posted orginally then seeking to explain your verses would serve no purpose - a man has to redeem the time.  When I choose to sit down to respond I take the posts seriously for souls are at stake but yours I felt I could get the heart of the matter more quickly and with more impact by dealling immediately with salvation and not argue over eternal security.

To explain my postion in light of your lack of understanding of Paul's ministry would not have been profitable to you or me at this time - this can only be done by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Now, I am going to read your second set of 3 parts again and if I think I can bring light to you by way of the scriptures then I will but if you have rejected grace based upon what I've previously posted then why would I think I could persuade you now?

If you still want me to respond more fully then let me know and I will pary about the matter and see what the Lord gives me from His word.

Again, thanks for your time and may God show you our Lord Jesus Christ and his saving grace.

I expected and I think most here will expect you to do more than just read their posts.  If you are going to throw down a challenge one would expect you to be willing to respond to those who wish to discuss it with you.  

Your long background means nothing to me.  There are many on this forum with as long or longer experience in apologetics, yet we don’t claim to have seen and know everything as you do.  In fact there is a long thread on this site about the error of sola scriptura based on this very issue that one man cannot on his own know enough of the scriptures to glean a correct doctrine from them alone.  The job is just too big and the errors and division of Protestantism prove it.  


That may or may not be the case, but since you have offered no evidence to the contrary I will stick with my “immediate assessment of your stand” as well.  Perhaps if you ever take the time to defend the position you put out there I might change my mind.


Are you omniscient now too?  This type of arrogant and dismissive attitude, that you have nothing to learn from any of us and everything to teach is hardly Christian.  I seriously doubt in your short life time you have seen and responded to every issue the Church has reviewed and considered in 2000 years.  In fact I seriously doubt that all the members of your denomination in the entire 300 years of its existence have seen and considered all of the issues regarding this topic.  But this goes back to the problem of the size of the material being too great for anyone other than Christ’s Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


It is not my job to prop up your character or verify your arguments for you – if you want to do apologetics you have to be willing to do the work of defending the faith yourself.  Don’t expect others to bow to your experience or do your job for you.  Just the expression of this attitude leads me to believe you are less experienced than you claim, not more.


So you respected the effort I put in, but only for a while!   I see, respect is something you grant until it becomes tiresome for you.  The issue of salvation and eternal security are inherently linked.  They do not need to be separated in a discussion as the relevant scriptures and proofs for both are used to form a cohesive harmonious interpretation where one supports the other to strengthen the doctrine developed regard each.


So once you assessed where I was going you stopped responding?  Funny I try not to start responding until I know where the person is going.  That way I don’t respond to the wrong issues.  To be willing to respond when you don’t know where the debate is going and then only decide to stop responding once you know where the discussion is leading can only be seen as fear to continue.

After 22 years of apologetics I would assume you had texts prepared after having seen and responded to everything.  It should have been easy to develop a response from your vast experience.  I know it gets easier for me all the time, and I am 48 and have been doing apologetics since high school.  

Let me tell you something about apologetics and teaching in general.  There are two things you need to reach people with your message.  First the message must be correct or at least appear correct to those you are presenting it to or they will see inconsistencies and not accept it.  Second you must be accepted as an authority or they simply will turn away.  When you walk in fresh to an new environment you cannot assume you have either of these.  That is why your past experience and your wanting to start in the middle on an issue and ignore the basics of it are unacceptable.

If you are tired of doing apologetics, by starting from the basics with each person you meet, then you should give it up and go back to preaching to the choir, as they are the only ones you are going to reach anyway.


Then you do not understand scripture or the proper development of doctrine as these two issues must agree with and support each other or one of them is wrong.  They do not need to be separate artificially to make your job easier.


I am familiar with this cop out as well.  I cannot win this argument because the basics in our two positions are so different so I am giving up rather than have an answer for any man as to the hope is in you.  But worse than that, those who typically take up this approach fire a parting shot implying that the person, whose doctrine they refuse to face, is so lost that only the Holy Spirit can reach them.  This type of judgmentalism fit well with the rest of your arrogant approach so it did not surprise me.


My acceptance of grace has nothing to do with your post, that occurred long ago.  If you stop thinking so highly of yourself for a moment and not assume that everyone who has come to Christ was due to your inspirational arguments you might learn something yourself.


Yes, if you are going to post here one would hope that you would do more than merely speak from on high with the idea than no one should question you.  

I would like you to respond to the verses and interpretations I have offered, as I have done with yours.  I understand it takes time, I had to write my six posts and was willing to put in the time.  I am asking no more of you.

This is a discussion forum, if you want to preach without being questioned I guess you will just have to ignore those who point out errors in your doctrines, but don’t complain when your silence is viewed as the inability to have an answer and certainly don’t expect people to assume your vast experience proves you know more than they and so they should just accept everything you say.

Michael:
I expected and I think most here will expect you to do more than just read their posts.  If you are going to throw down a challenge one would expect you to be willing to respond to those who wish to discuss it with you.  

Yes, I started a thread for people to examine - you call it a challenge - I don't think of them as challenges - more for self-examination -  there is no law saying that I have to respond to a post - you are allowed the same priviledge. I do not have to prove anything to you if I chose that after careful consideration it would be futile trying. I tried and realized I was "flogging a dead horse" (as the old saying goes).

I did respond to you and gave my reasons why I would not go anymore.  After re-considereing my last post I am going to change my original thought.  I said I would pray about how I could respond.  I do not feel led to carry this on anymore with you.  If you want to hammer me using any reason you come up with then post your dissatification of my response for all to see and be done with it - that is your desicion.

You do not dictate to me to whom I respond to or how I am to respond.  That is my choice - you have the same choices.  I gave my reasons for cutting off the "verse by verse" analysis in my first response to you and that should be enough.  You can question and assume my motives all day along if you like.  As for me I see trying to answer your response or accusations of me as being futile and non-productive at this point in time.  

Now, with that  I trust you will have a pleasant day.

Well since in your first post you said - "Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen."  I think it was a challenge for someone to show you, not just a self-examination.  That is all I tried to do and you choose to ignore my response to your challenge.


That is true there is no law, but there is a concept of common decency and manners.  Where I come from if you start a conversation and then refuse to respond to someone who joins you in it, that is rude.  But you are right you don't have to respond, that is your perogative, though it makes no sense on a discussion forum, nor does it do much to defend the faith which is what apologetics is and which was the name of the thread you posted in.


I would hardly consider your once reading and then partially responding to one post "careful consideration" nor would I consider that you "tried".  But I don't care I was merely pointing out that you had not addressed the proofs from scripture I offered and if you don't want to continue I understand and am sure the others who will read these posts will understand your reasons for avoiding the discussion of details.


You responded by telling me why you would not respond.  You can count that as a response if you like, but I cannot imagine living with myself if I treated others with such disdain.


No, we should be dictated to by love, honor and manners.  I feel bound by love of my brother to respect others and duty bound to defend the faith, that is how we differ apparently.  I would never make bold claims and then run off refusing to defend them.  My word means something.  I do not say things I am not ready and willing to defend.


It should be enough because you say it should be enough?  Do you ever listen to yourself to get a sense of your arrogance?


Without anything to provide an explanation for your behavior that is all any of us are left with to do.


That is too bad as you never gave the discussion a chance.  If you could provide answers to the issue I raised I would have thought you would be eager to share the truth as you see it with someone you obvious see as needing it.  But I doubt you ever considered them long enough to determine anything let alone the futility of the discussion.  

The bottom line is you have no idea how I would have responded to your arguments in support of your doctrine as you never even gave it a try.

This thread would be more properly titled "How to lose your salvation by not taking any steps."

Real faith produces action (works)

See if you were standing in the middle of the train track, and I tell you a train is coming, and you say "I believe" but remain standing there, you do not have real faith. Real faith in this instance would spur you into action, for obviously if you do not do more than "believe", you will die. So it is with salvation, faith without works is DEAD, unfruitful, a branch that is cut off.  

Luk 13:23  Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24  Strive [labor fervently]to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Why shall they not be able to enter in? Christs words here clearly indicated a desire to enter, so why? Why does He place so much emphasis on laboring fervently here? Because simply saying "I believe"  is not enough, He requires action to back our profession of faith.

Then He continues:

Luk 13:26  Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27  But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity.

After having known Christ, sat in His presence, listened to his teachings, they turned back to iniquity, and then He tells us what His response to this will be, that He never knew these who were once followers of Him.

I truly dont understand how anyone who considers themselves a  bible scholar can adhere to by faith alone, and once saved always saved doctrines. They do not tie in to the Bible message as a whole, tho I must say they certianly seem plausable when you take a scripture here and and another one there and leave the rest of the message out.
Regardless, I think our redeemer is worthy of more than my accepting such belittling of His sacrifice by my or anyone else`s preaching of  how little we can get away with doing for Him and still be saved.  It is no wonder, after the agony of calvary, God  penned these words: "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."  
I don`t know about the rest of you, but I grew up on a farm, and plough to me dont indicate sitting back and saying theres nothing I have to do, and in doing nothing but trusting Him  to provide, I`ll be fit to sit at His table when harvest time comes.  And harvest time is almost upon us! Those who are so busy wasting time trying to convince others of these doctrines, would be better off trying to make up for lost time, and convince lost souls of Christ.  I may be well criticized for saying so, but it tears at my heart, to see Christians working harder on broadening the road for the lost, than giving them direction to the narrow road that leads to eternal life.

What works can we do to earn our salvation? How much is enough? Which works are good enough? If I do more than someone else, am I more saved than they are?  :-\

Where in my post did you get the idea that I believe a man gets saved and then sits there like a bump on a log?  Where did you get the idea that people who believe they are eternally secure believe that all they had to do was get saved and then live like the world?

I believe:
1 Tim 6:18  That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;

2 Tim 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2:7  In all things showing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2:14  Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

According to the above verses and many more a man who is truely redeemed will have good works but......not to justify himself before God but to please God because he is saved!

According to:
Titus 2:11  For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Titus 2:12  Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It is grace that teaches a man to live - when a man realzies what Christ did for him at Calvary out of pure grace then the saved man will want to serve out of love and debt for what God has done for him.

Regarding your statement:
"I truly dont understand how anyone who considers themselves a  bible scholar can adhere to by faith alone"

The greatest Christian writers who effected the Christian world for good, missions, and a holy zeal for God were men who believed in grace and the eternal security of the believer - these men primarily came out of Scotland and England in the 1600's.  

If you want a list then I will be glad to provide you one.  You are more than welcome to provide me your lsit of men who believe in works salvation and what they contributed.

The majority of the missionary movement that did anything for God were men who believed in grace alone.

Now, I believe you stand to be wrong. Yes, there have been abusers of grace - they are wrong.  But when God does a work in a man he is a changed man:

2 Cor 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Finally:
"Those who are so busy wasting time trying to convince others of these doctrines, would be better off trying to make up for lost time, and convince lost souls of Christ."

I believe those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous for souls and have confidence in their message because it is scriptural.  I can tell a man that Christ died for his sins and because of that he is saved - a comforting message that produces joy and confidence in the man because the message is centered on Christ. This message produces results in the sinner.

Works message - "Believe on Christ but you have to do your part and then hope you don't blow it!"  No comfort of joy from that - bondage and legalism with little power.

The missionaries throughout history that had the greatest success for God preached a message of grace because that is where the power is - in Christ.

I don't run around trying to convice people of eternal security out in the fields but his is a forum. Out inthe fields I preach Christ crucified only - no debates or arguemnts over doctrine.  If God draws them and they truly get regenerated then they won't have any trouble with eternal security or works.

That is why I make a big deal out of etenral se3curity for the real issue is justification.  When I deal with the issue of etenral security I am realy dealing with justification before God while using OSAS as the tool to bring the man to a fuller understanding of the great doctrine of justification.

May God bless.

Works don't earn you salvation, they are a loving repsonse to the gift just as faith is, but they are required none the less.  No amount of works are enough; God only requires that we don't stop (just as he requires that we not stop believing) and if we do that we repent of it.  

One could ask you - How much faith is enough?  How long can faith be alone before it dies?  If my faith is strong than yours am I more saved then you?

I dont think arithmetic is Gods focus lol...or mine  ;)
But God did tell Moses, "I'm in charge of mercy. I'm in charge of compassion"...then God tells us in  Rev 2:23...   and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.

To say true faith produces action, is to say showing faith BY works, not one negating the other. We read in Jam 2:14  What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? As James makes very clear in this passage faith cannot stand alone, or salvation is not found in faith alone.
This is the law of faith.

Then we read where Titus says in chapter 1:16  They profess that they know God; but in works [by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour] they deny him...so again true faith produces action, or no action indicates no real faith.

Even James said in chapter 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, [that is, show or regard as just or innocent - be righteous] and not by faith only. So according to this we are found righteous by works AND faith.

Act 10:35  But in every nation he that feareth him, AND worketh [to toil -as a task, occupation - be engaged in or with - commit, do, labor for,  work.] righteousness, is accepted with him.  So if I dont do works of righteousness i`m not accepted? It would seem so.

To say I believe in Jesus Christ, so therefore i`m eternally saved is to leave out the requirements found in the rest of the scripture. To me its like saying I believed, so I can`t be judged now. HUH? Salvation to us is a gift given by God alone. Can we toss this gift away, according to His word yes we can.  He also makes it possible for us to live in his righteousness, but what happens if we dont?

Heb 2:1  Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
Heb 2:2  For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3  How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him];
So I wont escape God`s judgement if I NEGLECT His gift?
I recieved salvation, and I did`nt do a thing after that, not one single work, but i`m saved anyways?

By shifting our focus from what we do to what God does, do we cancel out all our careful keeping of the ways God commanded? Paul says in Rom 3:31 God Forbid! One confirms the other, not voiding it.

Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first. This surely says God`s keeping track. We obtain salvation as a free gift, then we must continue on, or else, the words overcoming, holding fast, striving, perfecting, holiness, etc, to enter Heavens gates would not be in God`s vocabulary.

AV I was  simply voicing my thoughts on this subject in general, and when I say I do not understand how any bible scholar can adhere to these doctrines I mean just that. I truly do not understand, I am quite familiar with these teachings and to me they simply do not fit with the whole of God`s Word. I`m not looking for a debate, for I`ve seen this subject debated a thousand times if not once, I reserve the right  to add  my five cents worth tho  :D

But while i`m here, I do have a question for you concerning a few of your  statements. I was`nt accusing you who believe this doctrine of being bumps on a log...cute...surely hope your not lol...but rather taking issue with half truths...what I would call baking a cake without the leaven.  You said a man does`nt do works to justify himself, yet what do you do with this scripture? James 2:24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other.


Also you said:

Is`nt it  a conceited statement to make that those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous to win souls lol.
whatever  ::)  I`m sure this message produces results,  and a comforting message it is, regardless, a half truth will remain a half truth no matter how it`s presented, and I believe your message is certianly that.  

That is why I make a big deal out of etenral se3curity for the real issue is justification.  When I deal with the issue of etenral security I am realy dealing with justification before God while using OSAS as the tool to bring the man to a fuller understanding of the great doctrine of justification.
That sounded a whole lot like a excuse for leaving part of the message out,  and OSAS would be a great tool, if it only took a saw to build a house  :)

And I think my former posts say why I make a great deal of the fact that the doctrine of eternal security is not scriptural, and the real issue here is what is Truth according to Gods word, not yours or mine.

"Until you can show me how a blood-bought, redeemed, regenerated saint in this age can lose all that God has done for him then I might give you a listen.  Until then I will stay secure in Christ for all eternity – glory!!!"



1 John 2:24.  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

What happens if that which one hears does not remain in one?
Do they continue in the Son, and in the Father?

Pray hard,
Ollie

michael_legna:Works don't earn you salvation, they are a loving repsonse to the gift just as faith is, but they are required none the less.  No amount of works are enough; God only requires that we don't stop (just as he requires that we not stop believing) and if we do that we repent of it.
Shylynne:I am not talking about obtaining salvation thru the works of the law here, obviously the Word says this is not the way of salvation,  but rather that true faith produces works of righteousness, and these two MUST go hand in hand.


So apparently everyone agrees that works don't earn you salvation?

So then, What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?
(I'm thinking that maybe this is where some of the disagreement comes from...)

Shylynne said:

"AV I was  simply voicing my thoughts on this subject in general, and when I say I do not understand how any bible scholar can adhere to these doctrines I mean just that...I reserve the right  to add  my five cents worth tho"

Please forgive me if I overreacted or initially misrepresnted your motive.  I get too defensive when I am in a hurry or not thinking clearly and sometimes come across wrongly - my bad.

"But while I`m here, I do have a question for you concerning a few of your  statements. I was`nt accusing you who believe this doctrine of being bumps on a log...cute...surely hope your not lol..."

Again, my bad for over reacting defensively - it is called sin on my part - I ask your forgiveness - you ask or make a statement in the search for truth and I come down like a hammer. People have accused those who believe in grace that they get saved and do little afterwards or they abuse grace.  And yes, that does happen - sad but true.  I was seeking to defend what should take place and has for those true saints that do believe in grace alone.  And you accurately hit upon what is wrong with true saints today (including me) - The old saints 1600-1870's or so were truly busy saints.  They believed they were saved to work and serve God 24 hrs. a day and sacrifice while doing.   Today we, (including myself) have a "convenient Christianity" - if it is convenient I'll do it and espcially if I can look good.  If it is going to cost me then I'll have to think about it.  Now, I know there are saints today that are not this way but I trust you know what I'm trying to say.  

"James 2:24  Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other."

One of the most, if not the most discussed verses regarding justification, unfortunately.  I will tell you what I believe to be so. James is right and I am right - how about that.  Please allow me to explain:

Two things put one on shakey ground when going  to James for doctrinal truths for us today.
1. James 1:1 says the book was written to the twelve tribes of Israel. One can make application all day but the fact is who is the book written to?  To the twelve tribes scattered abroad - puts you doctrinally in the tribulation where they will be scattered abroad.  Historically ther were also but in the trib they will be scattered by the persecution of the antichrist and beast.
2. James 2:24 is contrary to Paul accoriding to Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16 an others.  Paul says the sinner is justified by the faith of the Son of God and not of works - Eph. 2:8,9.  

So James and Paul are both right.  Paul for us today in this age and James for Jews in tribulation.  Also, historically James is a very early Acts book when during that time the body of Christ truth had not been revealed and the tribulation could have started at the time if Israel had accepted their messiah.

One more thing the phrase "justified by" shows up 14 times or so inteh NT.  Out of those 14 only 2 refernece works as aprt while the other 12 are the opposite.  Why do many take the  "2" while forgetting the 12?  Just a thought.

Also you said:

"Isn't it a conceited statement to make that those who believe in grace alone are the most zealous to win souls lol.
whatever  ::) "

Conceited?  No.  Broad stroke, probably.  Should I have even said that?  Probably not.  I know people who don't believe OSAS witness - I just believe those who do believe faith alone witness more. History has proven that those who hold to the doctrines of grace did most of the missionary work from 1700-1870. I am going by what I've seen and observed.  Yes, I know JW's and Mormons are active and put many of us to shame with their discipline.  People pick on Calvinists but many of the greatest preachers and missionaries who preached to the lost and went to the mission fields were Calvinists!

That is why I make a big deal out of etenral security for the real issue is justification.

I think the best way I can explain what I mean by works of righteousness is to refer to Rev 2:19  I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last [to be] more than the first.
Since Jesus said on two commandments hang all the law, that is to love God with all our  hearts, souls, and minds,
and to love our neighbors as ourselves, I believe the works that true faith produces are based on these commandments to serve Him and others to the very best of our ability.

First, Shy Lynne and I don't agree completely, as she sees works as just the results of faith (I think).  I see them as the results of faith but also the companion and in some cases even preceeding faith (as in the case of repentance).  Additionally works serve to perfect our faith once it is formed and the fruits of something cannot perfect their origin, thus works must also for this reason be more than just the fruits of faith.  So in a sense a perfect faith is the fruit of works.

But I think we would agree that both faith and works are the fruits of grace.  Without grace we can neither do pleasing works nor even seek God let alone make a decision of faith.

Now on to your question -

What are 'works'? What are some specifics that count that rich and poor alike can do to show their appreciation for the gift of salvation?

First of course is repentance, and not merely in the sense of being sorry, but in the sense of the original greek term, metanoia, which is a military term meaning about face - it includes more than just changing your mind but the concept of reformation is included, thus it is works.  Without repentance faith is not possible.

Next comes love.

Gal 5:14  For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

1Co 13:2-3  And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Specifically, we can take a clue from the definition of a good religion.

Jam 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Finally it all boils down to the golden rule.

Mat 7:12  Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

There is a famous Rabbi (and the name escapes me right now) who was asked to explain the entire Old Testament while standing on one foot.  He said - Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, all the rest is details.  (Of course I am paraphrasing as I can't even find his name right now but I am confident of the story).

I think the rest of the specifics are obvious once you stop and think about them.  But I will be glad to go into more if people are interested.  I have in other posts listed the works we are instructed to do (along with faith) for eternal life and some of them relate of course to serving others for God's glory and I am willing to provide that list again if anyone cannot find it.

I didnt think you overreacted, besides not thinking clearly is my fortay  :-X My motive is always simply to agree where I agree, and disagree where I disagree, and back up what I have to say with scripture.  :)



That was well said, and is why I believe to love God with all your heart soul and mind entails some 'work' on our part, and why I think to teach "faith alone" leaves out the other just as important part of the equation.  

"James 2:24  Is James telling us the truth here or are you? According to your statement it has to be one or the other."


First let me say that I dont adhere to any doctrine that teaches some of the NT apply`s only during that time period, and some for today. Period. Tho I do agree asking who the author was talking too and how it apply`s to us is very key in understanding scripture. I`ve lost count of the times i`ve read just on this forum where people have used that arguement, that part of the NT Word applys to us, part does not, that to me is just one step up from those who say the Word contradicts itself. If I were going to adapt to such theology, i`d as soon toss the Book in its entirety out the window.

To quote another commentary: "Galatians 5:6, a crucial text in seeing Paul and James in harmony with each other. "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love." So when Paul dealt with the abuse of his doctrine of justification by faith alone, he said: It's not added works like circumcision that will win God's favor. What then? It is "faith working through love." Notice very carefully what he says. What counts with God? "Faith." But what kind of faith? Faith that "works through love." He does not say that want counts with God is "faith" plus a layer of loving works added to faith. He says that what counts with God is the kind of faith that by its nature produces love. But it is faith that gives us our right standing with God. The love that comes from it only shows that it is, in fact, real living, justifying faith.

Now that, I think, is what James was trying to get across to his churches. Loveless faith is absolutely useless; and anybody that comes along and says "We are justified by faith alone, and so you don't have to be a loving person to go to heaven" is not telling the truth."

 http://www.desiringgod.org/library/sermons/99/080899.html  

"That sounded a whole lot like a excuse for leaving part of the message out,  and OSAS would be a great tool, if it only took a saw to build a house"


I`m saying osas does not complete the structure of Gods plan of salvation.


Again I agree, but to add to that, what man must do following  what Christ did, does receive more than mere mention.

I like what Ollie said "PRAY HARD"  :D

shylynne,

I would be careful, to believe anything other than what the scriptures teach;


Many decievers have gone out in these days, to decieve those who are not wary.

The scriptures are clear to point out, that;

Faith, will accomplish Gods work, in every believer and that is  "that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jhn 6:29, it is Gods Work......... that brings men to Faith in Christ Jesus, if it were not for HIS WORK, no man could come to FAITH.

Despisers of Grace and FAITH, begin Gods gift, always separate the two, claiming they shared in Gods work by doing their part, so salvation to these is Gods Grace, and their faith.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.  Mat 24:4

On way of decviieving is to get you to agree with them.....



Gal5
22  .....the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

And it is Faith unto Faith, for the Just shall live by Faith, not by works....

Faith is not the fruit of works nor any kind of works, man can do............at all, it is the the result Gods Mercy and Grace, which will enable one to accomplish works pleasing to God.

Any other works under any other condition are as filthy wrags, before God.


I would be very careful when agreeing with anyone who might twist scripture to mean other than what it clear teaches.

Blessings,

Petro

On way of decviieving is to get you to agree with them.....


Petro according to this you adapt to the idea if a man is deemed wrong on one point, he`s wrong on all points?
So if I dont agree with michael on some things, I am being deceived if I agree with him on other things?
So if i`m wrong on some point, nothing I say has any validity?
So if your wrong on some point, I`d better be careful not to listen to anything you have to say either?  :-\

Any other works under any other condition are as filthy wrags, before God.

Have you twisted the scripture that says our righteousness is as filthy rags  :-\

Petro, again FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.

michael_legna and Shylynne,

If you go a whole day and do no works, will you lose your salvation?

Just for today alone, what specific works have you done?  :-\

 The whole of the matter is, if my faith in God produces  no works, it`s proof I have no faith, it`s (dead) non-existant, no matter how much I might 'say' I  possess it.  

To answer your question, Paul in instructing Timothy says this: ...They don't help anyone to do God's work that can only be done by faith. (faith and work tied together)
1Ti 1:5  You must teach people to have genuine love, as well as a good conscience and true faith.
1Ti 1:19  You will be faithful and have a clear conscience. Some people have made a mess of their faith because they didn't listen to their consciences. (from 1Ti :1) The kjv uses the words shipwrecked faith.
Do I think salvation is lost in a day? No, but I personally know the meaning of shipwrecked faith, and how one day of neglecting my faith (again true faith producing the words, deeds, actions that are proof positive we have faith) turns into another, until one day there is nothing left of the faith I claimed to possess. In the OT he prophet Jeremiah calls this perpetual backsliding.
Tit 3:8  [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Forgive my inclusion. This seems appropo.
 1 Corinthians 3:13.  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
 14.  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
 15.  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 

Since salvation is an end result of the entire process I have not yet gained it, the race as Paul says is not yet complete.

Heb 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

But if I do no works for an entire day, I would be at risk of losing the free gift, especially if I did not repent of the sin.  Because not doing something you know to do is sin just as much as actively doing something you know not to do.

Jam 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


You mean besides witnessing to you?   ;D

You mean besides witnessing to you?  ;D

Wow - I must have missed that. Isn't it amazing how God protects me?  ;D

The love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Praise God... Love works, and im glad it does or else i'd still be in my sin ;D  

With so many things said, I'd like to say this:

Our salvation is a gift, we cannot earn it(Rom.4:1-9)!  However, as already discused, it will produce an action(ie... works). As with Abraham, believing GOD=Rightousness! But we know Abraham believed GOD because he obeyed GOD!

GOD'S love supercedes our actions. If it didn't, we would all be dead. We are incapable of justifying ourselves in the sight of GOD! That's why CHRIST died!

Most of you are saying similar things,with two main groups:
-Those who know you can't earn salvation.
-Those who know you can't earn salvation and don't want anyone to abuse it by living a reckless lifestyle.

The bible does deal with this Gal.5:13

I do enjoy the zeal. GOD Bless!

Now thats some mighty fine preaching, I will make this my Gem For Today. Thank You

And may God Bless you Brother, AMEN!!!!!

Brother Love :)

<:)))><

Thank you my faithful soldier in Christ  :)

May God bless you (and it appears He certainly has, huh!!!!) ;D

I've never been sure of where I stand on the once saved always saved (OSAS) debate.
I do slightly lean against it.
I don't think it would be easy for someone to loose their salvation, nor do I live in fear that I will loose it.
However, something has always troubled me.....
What if a Christian decides they don't want salvation anymore?
Is God going to force them to keep the gift?

If a person has truly been regenerated then all of the things in my original post (15 and more) are true of you and cannot be undo by you.  Once you are in Christ you are IN CHRIST and you cannot get out of Christ's body.  We all get frustrated, we all have differetn doubts (thanks to us focusing on ourselves and letting the wicked one hammer us) and may even want to throw in the towel but look real close at the following verses if you will:

Phil 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

God will compete the work regardless of our lack of faith after salvation.  He knows in our state down here we are a wreck at best that is why He has to do the work for us.  ;)

Phil 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Look at vs. 13 - God will do the work in you according to his good pleasure not ours.  :)

You say your faith gets weak then look at this great verse:

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

According to the above verse - whose faith do you live by - yours or Christ's?  Why Christ's of course -what a blessing!  We don't even live by our faith but His.

You see, my friend, we have to rest in not only what Christ did for us in our salvation but what Christ is doing in us in our present walk.

May God bless  ;D

Amen Brother,

by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God

AMEN!!!!!!

Brother Love :)

    <:)))><

"TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE"
    (Ephesians 3:9)

Is this always true or just for some times and some people, because it sure looks like these people are removed from Christ's body.

Rev 3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

I guess this is another one of those sectioons of the Word of God you get to ignore because you have decided it doesn't apply to you.


But it doesn't say what that work is.  Yes God will complete the work He starts in us but He didn't start our response (our acceptance of the gift) we did and we have to finish it.


So when He tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling He really means He has to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?  Nonsense, God doesn't fear or tremble and you are just twisting the grammar of that verse.


And of course you know what is wrong with this interpretation.  The word of in the faith "of" the Son of God, was added by the translators.  It doesn't exist in the Greek and modern translators use the word in to complete the grammar.  It is our faith in Him not His faith in Himself that is a proper acceptance of the gift.  If it was His faith in Himself then all of us would be saved.  The fact that even one person remains unsaved shows your doctrine to be flawed.

One More Time...

Amen Brother,

by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God
by the faith of the Son of God

AMEN!!!!!!

Brother Love

    <:)))><

"TO MAKE ALL MEN SEE"
    (Ephesians 3:9)