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     I'll post some of my Pre-Tribulation Rapture studies here that I'm coping from different debates in other topics so they can be easily found for those interested in the subject. I had many, many pages that were lost when the site was crashed. I'm going to save the best new files on hard drive just in case. I lost hours and hours of studies on the Rapture so I'll start again.

     This first post is from a debate with Prophecyjax1 who believes in a Mid Tribulation Rapture.

     First let me say I'm not trying to convince you personally.
You are making bold statements that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is False. I disagree and will explain why only it will take a serious amount of effort to address all the issues. To solve a mystery you must be come a detective and search ALL the evidence. Your theory sounds easy enough in the beginning but when all evidence is considered it fails. Most people don't want to study deep enough to examine all the evidence required to correctly solve the mystery of the Rapture.

    I'll start laying out evidence for the benifit of those who read this to show that your not unchallenged as you claim.

    Its to bad the site crashed for much of this frame work was already layed out once but what can you do?

   Welcome to Pre-Tribulation Rapture 101:

    First lets start at the book of Revelation. John was given a format to follow in writing the book and we are given a format to follow when reading the book. If you do not follow the format of the book you will surely misinterpret the context.

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

"Write the things which thou hast seen," What had he seen? The vision of Chapter 1. This is past tense. Stay with me this is really quite simple.

"and the things which are" What are the things which are? The seven letters to the seven Churches, Church things, the Church age. What is Jesus doing in the seven letters to the Churches? Jesus is walking, not sitting between the seven lamp stands, Jesus is judging His Church. This is present tense. Jesus is still judging His Church. This is still an on going action. He warned the seven Churches and he has judged the literal seven churches the letters were adderessed to because the lay in ruins today. The seven letters are also for us. We are being judged. The letters to philidelphia and Laodicea are also prophetic Letters to the church on earth now. Philidelphia is to be Raptured. Laodicea has doctinal errors causing it to be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture and its becomes the harlot of Revelation 17.

   We are living in the period of time between Chapter 1 and Chapter 4. This is Christs Church program, present tense.

   Lets look at the key verse again and finish this up shall we:

 Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


and the things which shall be hereafter; HERE AFTER WHAT? THE CHURCH! WE started with a vision, you'll notice some part of the vision in each of the seven letters, Then came the Seven letters which is Christ Speaking to His Church and actively judging it. The Church is still here and the seven letters still apply to us. At the Rapture Jesus completes the judgement of the Church. The dead and the living Church are judged. Laodicea is vomited out into the Tribulation. WE are still in the time period of the things which are.

and the things which shall be hereafter;  Here after is future tense. After the Rapture and the Church is judged. This is the beginning of the tribulation period.

    Now we need to find where the part of the verse and the things which shall be hereafter; fits in.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Ok now put it all together. we left off at the seven letters and Christ judging His Church. we are living during "the things which are" present tense. This present period must end before "the things which must be hereafter" can begin. There must be an end of the church age before the tribulation period can begin.

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
     
This is the Rapture! Theres your trumpet, Its the voice of Jesus. This open door is the same open door in the letter to the church of Philidephia, the Raptured church of those who were alive at the Rapture.

    This event in Chapter 4:1 is the Rapture and that event is what closes out the Age of Grace and the Church and Allows "the things which must be hereafter.to begin. The opening of the seven sealed scroll begins the tribulation, we are in heaven witnessing Jesus take the scroll from the Father. We are not destined for wrath. We are going to a Wedding.

   This is just one reason for pre-Tribulation Rapture but I'll keep adding on evidence as time permits me.

                                           The Pre-Trib View by Paul2
         

     WRONG!  

Revelation 4:1  "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    The first voice he heard as it were a trumpet was who?

Revelation 1:10: I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
   11: Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
   12: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
   13: And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
   14: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
   15: And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
   16: And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
   17: And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
   18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
   19: Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
   20: The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

    The voice John first heard like a trumpet was the Lord Jesus Christ.

   
   WRONG

    You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.

     How you can say an angel was speaking to him when chapter 1 makes it clear as day he was speaking with Jesus, who was the first voice like a trumpet mind you that he heard.

    Are we having fun yet?

                                        The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2

  Old Timer is right. The seven letters to the seven churches of Revelation are Three fold.
    First they were letters to the Seven real churches in those locations of that time period.
   Second they are letters to the universal church of the age of Grace. They contain a message for each person who is Christian.
   Third they represent the different time periods of the Church until the Rapture.

   We are in the time period of two churches in the letters of Revelation now. Philidelphia is the true church of the age now.
Philidelphia will be Raptured. Laodicea is the false church of the age now. Laodicea will be vomited out of the body of Christ and remain behind at the Rapture to enter into the Tribulation as the whore of Revelation 17. Laodicea is a false Church that professes Christianity and Jesus but distorts the truth of the Gospel. They can not be digested into the body of Christ and must be vomited out.

    The true Church of Philidelphia is the church that gives out the word of God. Old Timer used the passage of the wedding feast. When the door was shut. To the church of Philidelphia the Door is open.

Revelation 3:7  "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
   8: I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
   9: Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
  10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    Philidelphia is Raptured at the voice like a trumpet from Jesus in Revelation 4:1. Laodicea is vomited out and left behind.

    Revelation 3: 14: And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
   15: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
   16: So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

    The 24 Elders are the representatives of the Church Age. We are in the crowd after the Rapture and witness these events in the verses below. We are the redeemed!

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
   9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
   10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


                                                              Paul2

The Two Witnesses of Revelation 11

    It is imporant to understand the time period of the ministry of the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11. At the time of their ministry (1,260 days) they are the chosen representatives for God on earth. Lets look at the scripture and then I'll explain the importance.

Revelation 11:3   "And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

     The seven candlesticks mentioned in Revelation 1 are now not on earth but have been replaced by the two witnesses who are the only two people on earth with the Holy Spirit at the time of their ministry. Old testament Saints were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit but "led" by the Holy Spirit externally. The Only group indwelt by the Holy Spirit is the Church. The Holy Spirit started indwelling man at Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. The reason the word church is not found between chapter 3 and 22 is because the church has left earth and been Raptured. Believers during this period are called "Saints", which was also used to describe believers of old testament times. The church believers are also called Saints but theres a big difference between old testament Saints and Church Saints. Church Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, old testament Saints were not. Saints of the Tribulation will not be Holy Spirit indwelt like the Church but will be led by the Holy Spirit as in old testament times. Not all Saints are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Thats what makes the Church unique.

     The reason the two witnesses are called lampstands is they are the only two on earth at the time of their ministry indwelt by the Holy Spirit. These are God's Ambassadors during the first half of the Tribulation or Daniels 70th week.

    Their ministry starts on the first day of Daniel's 70th week and continues until the mid week, 1260 days later. They begin their ministry on the very day the 7 year treaty with Israel is signed by Antichrist.

    How do I know that? Because Antichrist kills them at the middle of the 70th week.

 Revelation 11:7  "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

     The two witnesses are divinely protected during their Ministry. They have power and control over rain and plagues.
Anyone who tries to harm them bursts into flames. They are unstoppable until finished with their ministry of 1260 days.

    On the last day of their ministry 1260 days after the treaty between Israel and Antichrist is signed the Antichrist goes to the rebuilt Temple and is fatally wounded and healed. Antichrist now starts his 42 month reign. He declares himself God and demands worship. His first "ACT" as self proclaimed God is to kill the two witnesses. No one else had been able to silence the two prophets before but Antichrist kills them to try to deceive people into believing he is God.

     People rejoice and love the Antichrist because he killed the two witnesses and people send gifts to each other, sort of an "AntiChristmas." The party is short lived because the bodies of the two prophets are refused burial and lie in the street of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 Days until they are brought back to life, rise up an accend in full view of people just like Jesus.

    Antichrist ends the ministry of the two witnesses at the middle of Daniel's 70th week. The two witnesses ministry of 1,260 days can not be during the reign of Antichrists 42 months. Antichrist could not claim to be all powerful God during the two witnesses ministry. If he tried to do so people would question why he was powerless to stop them. He does stop them on the Last day of their Ministry which also happens to be the first day of Antichrists 42 month reign or 1,260 days which is the last half of Daniel's 70th week.

     What does all this mean? The Church is Raptured before the 70th week of Daniel begins. God sends two witnesses to be His Prophets during the first half of the 70th week. At the middle of the week Antichrist kills them ending their ministry and begins His 1,260 days or 42 months of reign.

     At the middle of Daniel's 70th week God seals the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel and they are led to the dessert in a place God perpared for them for 1260 days. We'll get into detail on this last part in do time.

                                            The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2

Revelation 3:11   "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."

     Jesus was giving the church of Philidelphia a warning. There is an imminence to the message. What Crown?

     The message to Philidelphia is also the message Jesus has for the Church living on earth at the time of the Rapture. We have a crown offered but it can be stolen by men. This crown is not Salvation but a crown of reward. There is a special crown given to those who look forward to Jesus coming for them at the Rapture. For those who love his appearing. For those who believe and expect the imminent return of Christ to remove His Church from earth.

2 Timothy 4:8   "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

      Many have tried to steal my Crown. Steal my hope of the imminate Return of the Lord to call us out of the world. To replace my hope with the Tribulation. To replace my Joy of hoping the Rapture is soon with dread that it might be in my life time. I protect my Crown like I was warned by Jesus to do.

     I have placed my faith in God"s word for he promised me this: Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

    I believe Him. The Church should be expecting Christ now!
He could come at any minute. We are in the way of the treaty. Daniel's 70th week can not begin until were gone. We need to get busy for DAYS ARE SHORT. Are you ready to be Raptured or would it overtake you as a thief in the night?

    Will you receive your Crown? or will you be standing there empty handed smelling of smoke? Jesus could come at any moment. Theres nothing that must come first. The 70th week of Daniel CAN NOT begin until the Rapture has occured.

    Hold on to your crown tight and be ready to meet the Lord in the air. Let no man steal your Crown!

    I'll tackle the 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 issues on the next post.

                                             The Pre-Trib.View by Paul2  

    2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 is a favorite of Pre-Trib. bashers. They miss the "DAY OF CHRIST" and try to replace it with the Rapture. The "Day of Christ" is the "Wrath of the Lamb."

Lets get some background. Paul was in Thessalonica for 3 weeks and started a Church there. He sent the Church a letter known as 1 Thessalonians. He revealed to the Thessalonians the Rapture. That was the focal point of the 1st. letter.

    Paul got word that the Thessalonians were being confused by false reports being sent to them claiming that they had missed the Rapture and had entered the Day of Christ, the wrath of the Lamb, the Great Tribulation.

    Paul sends another letter to clear up the situation.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1  "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2: That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.


     The Thessalonians were taught all about the Rapture and what was to follow. Verse 5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?" confirms this. They received a false report claiming they had entered the Wrath of the Lamb, which is also called the Day of Christ, which is also called the Great Tribulation. They knew the Rapture was to take place first and assumed they had missed the Rapture. They were told they had entered the Great Tribulation which is the last half of the 70th week of Daniel.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

     for that day shall not come What day shall not come? The Day of Christ, the Wrath of the Lamb, the Great tribulation. This is the day Paul is focusing on. Paul is focusing on the Day of the Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. Paul is not talking about the Rapture but the Wrath Of Christ.

     Paul is telling them that the wrath of Christ won't come until the man of sin be revealed (Antichrist). He's assuring them the wrath of the Lamb, Jesus Christ has not come yet.

2 Thessalonians 2:4  "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

      Now Paul tells them Antichrist is to be revealed. We know Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel to start the 70th week of Daniel, 1260 days later he is sitting in the temple claiming to be God. The Wrath of Christ can't begin until Antichrist enters the temple which he will do in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

2 Thessalonians 2:5  "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

    Paul reminds them that he had explained this before, and to beware of false messages supposedly from Paul contradicting what he had already taught them. In other words "Believe what I taught you in the first place, don't believe reports that claim you missed the Rapture and The Day of the Lambs wrath has come, The Day of Wrath can't begin until Antichrist is revealed at the signing of the seven year treaty and in the temple claiming to be God 1260 days later.

2 Thessalonians 2:6  "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
   7: For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8: And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


     Now Paul is telling them that Antichrist is restrained and not revealed until the restrainer is removed. The restrainer is the Holy Spirit indwelling the Church. We are restraining Antichrist with the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling us. At the Rapture the Holy Spirit will stop indwelling men and begin a different ministry of indwelling the two witnesses. When the Church is Raptured, Antichrist will be revealed and not until the Rapture.

     The "falling away" can be taken two ways, back sliding, and removal. I plan on falling away from earth to meet the Lord in the air.

2 Thessalonians 2:9   "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
   10: And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
"

     Antichrist is part of Gods judgment. A part of the wrath of the Lamb is allowing Antichrist to perform miracles for 42 months, the last half of Daniels 70th week. When God is sending delusions to believe lies your in the wrath of the Lamb.

     Summing it up, the Rapture is the focal point of
1 Thessalonians. The day of Christ, wrath of the Lamb, Great Tribulation is the focal point of 2 Thessalonians.

                                           The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2
   

Good teaching Paul2

  I'm baaack! I finally got a new computer after my old one crashed.

                                                           Paul2

Let me be the first to say Welcome Back Bro  ;D

Paul2,
       I've taken the liberty of copying the posts here, I want to read all that has been written. I have a long wait in the dentist office tomorrow, perfect time to read.
        I'm sorry you lost all that hard work, does it ever make you wonder if the devil knows how to crash  a site?

   You can put up a point for my side. You got lost awful fast didn't you? Jesus is Calling John to Heaven in Chapter 4 and when we reach that point in time we'll be called to heaven also. John went to the Lords day in Spirit, we must wait for the actual day to go bodily.

Well Jesus had a definate notion of when the 'day to go bodily.' would be. And in the space of one chapter he told us four times. All the while never giving any qualificatioon, no mention of any 'tribulation' period. Earlier you made great import of Jesus being the speaker. Jesus is the speaker here;


38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39   And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40   And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41   The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42   And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43   Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44   No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45   It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48   I am that bread of life.
49   Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50   This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51   I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52   The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54   Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(KJV)


I'll wager $100 you will not take your usual literalist position here even though the speaker is Christ and the terms are givien  without the slightest qualification. In fact this  single chapter contains more than half the useage of 'last day' in the entire canon.

Take care

Hitch

Revelation 1:19  "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;..........


I have read Rev several times before and this seems to have been the first time I understood, or even seen this particular verse.....now I feel like a ditzzz.....lol, goes to show you we all have something we can learn.  ;), YES, I'm still teachable. This really helps.

      I'm following along real good so far. Throughly enjoying it too. Thanks
blessings

Paul2,
Historically when did the Church begin to believe in imminency?
Did the Church always believe that Christ's return for His Church could happen any moment or did they believe that certain events must be fulfilled first? Did they always believe in two comings, one secret coming and one open return? Does Matthew 24 speak of a secret coming. Why or why not? How about Luke 21? Is there any verse where Jesus speaks of a secret coming for His Church? Would you please quote that verse. What about Peter? Did he believe in imminency? How do the following verses line up with the any moment rapture of the Church in relation to Peter?

2Pe 1:13  But I consider it right, as long as I am in this tent, to stir you up by a reminder,
2Pe 1:14  knowing that the putting off of my tent is soon, just as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me.
2Pe 1:15  And I will make an effort also, whenever necessary, to cause you to have a reminder of these things after my departure.

Did Peter rest in the promise of Jesus' imminent return?

Joh 21:15  So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I care for You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs."
Joh 21:16  He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I care for You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
Joh 21:17  He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you care for Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you care for Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I care for You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.
Joh 21:18  Most assuredly I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and used to walk where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and will carry you where you do not wish."
Joh 21:19  But this He said, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."
Joh 21:20  Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had reclined on His chest at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?"
Joh 21:21  Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?"
Joh 21:22  Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

Note the two highlighted verses. Did Peter know that he would die before the Lord could return? In verse 22 is there any indication of two returns?

Respectfully submitted,

asaph

 could i pose a few questions???
#1--when has the "church" ever been referred to as a "HE"???
 as in rev.4.vs.1--ESpecially when it is quite clear the one being spoken to is "John"?? vs.2 qualifies "who" is being spoken to--"and immediately I {John} was in the Spirit" ---
 perhaps a quick look at matt.24.vss.29.thru.31--would absolutely clarify "when" the rapture takes place???
 IN vs.29--JESUS HIMSELF states "when" the rapture takes place--{immediately after the tribulation of those days}--
 There is only "ONE" coming of JESUS,& that happens "after"
 the trib.--which that tribulation isNOT the WRATH of GOD poured out on an unrepentant world----possibly someone could answer these apparant conflicts of scripture--with scripture if possible???thank you for listening---shadow2b--

There are Christians all over the world who are going through a tribulation of their own right now. Evangelical Christianity is already illegal in France (although it hasn't been enforced very much yet) and China is studying their new anti-cult laws. I think we know what happens to Christians in the Middle East. I am prepared for tribulation, whether it is the actual Trib or one like many Christians all over the world have endured. If we aren't prepared, we won't last when/if we have to face it and everything we've fought for this far will be lost. I've read Revelation and the spine of prophesy in the gospels--we are not promised protection in those times. I think we need to pray that we leave beforehand, but be prepared to endure it as if we know we will have to. In some shape or form we will have to.

could i pose a few questions???
#1--when has the "church" ever been referred to as a "HE"???
as in rev.4.vs.1--ESpecially when it is quite clear the one being spoken to is "John"?? vs.2 qualifies "who" is being spoken to--"and immediately I {John} was in the Spirit" ---
perhaps a quick look at matt.24.vss.29.thru.31--would absolutely clarify "when" the rapture takes place???
IN vs.29--JESUS HIMSELF states "when" the rapture takes place--{immediately after the tribulation of those days}--
There is only "ONE" coming of JESUS,& that happens "after"
the trib.--which that tribulation isNOT the WRATH of GOD poured out on an unrepentant world----possibly someone could answer these apparant conflicts of scripture--with scripture if possible???thank you for listening---shadow2b--
Shadow2b,
I think you are on the right track. First is the tribulation by antichrist which will be shortened by the parousia (coming) of Jesus Christ. The rapture is the initial event of Christ's parousia. On the same day the wrath of God begins (Day of the Lord). There is only one parousia, as you said, but this coming is made up of a series of events, the rapture being the initial stage. His first coming was also a series of events that covered 33 years. Why should not His second coming involve a period of time made up of several events? I believe the rapture takes place after the opening og the 6th seal. Note the likeness of the two passages.

Rev 6:12  And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13  and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.

Mat 24:29  But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30  and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31  And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus points out in Matthew that the gathering of the elect takes place at this time. Jesus points out in Revelation that before the 7th seal is opened there will be "a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10  and they cry with a great voice, saying, Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11  And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12  saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and whence came they?
Rev 7:14  And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation..."

Note that they came out of great tribulation. This coinsides with Matthew 24 where Jesus says that the great tribulation is shortened by the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. They literally came out, they were raptured. After this the seventh seal is opened in which the seven trumpets, representing the wrath of God are blown.

So the order is persecution, cosmos disturbance, rapture, and wrath.
No one knows exactly when the sixth seal will be opened, but sometime after the Abomination of Desolation during antichrist's persecution will the blessed hope begin.

asaph

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?

    For those of you who do not believe the church will be raptured before the great tribulation, I have a question.

   Are you nervous? I think you should be. God's time piece isn't TIMEX but ISRAEL!

   Israel is all important. The peace they seek brings the end time.

   The "road map to peace" is a joke. Its set up to take small steps toward peace but step three will never work.

   The plan is to defuse the tension by both sides taking small steps. Then to decide the important things like Jerusalem.

   Problem is their doing it backwards. Once the Jerusalem debate comes into play both sides will heat up and the cycle of terror will begin again.

   The real conflict is of religon not land. The way to settle the conflict is to start at the problem. The muslims have control of the Temple Mount. Jews will never accept this solution. Muslims will not accept jews on the temple mount.

    Theres the fundamental problem and if someone can solve this (Antichrist) there can be (false) peace.

    Lets play "WHAT IF". What if Israel responded to the next big suicide bombing by locking down Jerusalem and seizing control of the temple mount. Remember what started the uprising 2 years ago? Ariel Sharon stood on the temple mount steps and all hell has broken loose. Why did he do that? He's preparing Israel. If I were Sharon I'd tell the Palestians that the next suicide bombing will result in the seizing of the temple mount from their control. Not only that but I'd open up the sealed tunnels under the mountain and search for the Ark.

   Theres a red Heifer in Israel now. You don't think they see it as a sign? You don't think Jews believe that its their destiny to have a temple on that mountain? They want to have the temple and their ready to settle the issue once and for all.

   Bush can't make peace between them, nobody can except Antichrist. If Israel seizes the temple mount and finds the ark all hell will break loose. It will take Antichrist to settle the conflict.

  I have discovered your answer! Take time to read this and allow me to explain in detail.

  The answer I have found will explain John's vision in Revelation and the rapture.

   Allow me to paint a visual picture senario for you. The Rapture of true believers happens now, Bam, millions vanish, including you. The next thing you know your standing before Jesus at the bema judgement seat. Jesus judges his Church at the bema judgement and gives rewards. 24 Elders are selected by Jesus to serve in the role of priests to him. He gives them crowns and they are seated before the throne of God. We are taken into the "place he went to prepare for us " with Jesus for the wedding week, which happens to parallel Daniel's 70th week on earth. On the final day of the wedding week we are assembled before God. This is the Day of the second coming of Christ to earth.

    John on the isle of Patmos was taken to THIS day in heaven, not the day of the rapture but to the day of the second coming! The day of the lord. John arrives in heaven and witnesses the last day. He doesn't see the bema judgement, but sees the elders of the church crowned and actively serving as priests holding the prayers of the tribulation saints. John's vision was not 7 years long. It was 1 day long, the last day.

    Back to us in heaven... We are assembled on the last day and we witness all the events of John's vision with him. We have been on a honeymoon and now we are being shown what has taken place since we left earth. We are being shown some events that have already taken place but we are shown the "cause and effect". We are shown the 7 seals broken and we are shown the effects that took place as a result. We are shown the details of 7 years, Daniel's 70th week. The 7th trumpet is the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Which happens to be the day we are gathered before God's throne in heaven witnessing everything John saw.

    John speaks with an elder who has been crowned, who could that be? the Elder asks John to identify the crowd arrayed in white robes. John does not recognize them, they are not of the church. The elder reveals to John that those arrayed in white have come up from the great tribulation, they are martyred tribulation saints. They are now at the throne of God for it is the last day. The day of the lord. At the end of John's vision Christ returns to earth for the wedding feast. We are hours away from decent.

   We are gathered together for the famous final scene. We are being shown the events of the past 7 years while we were on honeymoon. The seven bowls are poured out after the 7th trumpet but the effects take place from the mid week of Daniel's 70th week on. Satan was throne from heaven at the middle of the 70th week as the effect of the 5th trumpet judgement. We are watching what is like a movie. We are shown causes and their effects and not continous chronological time pass. We are being brought up to speed on events. Right now somewhere out in space is a comet heading for earth that will be called wormwood. It is aready in motion on a head on collision course. In heaven we will see the cause of the comet, the 3rd trumpet sounding, followed by the effect of the comet on earths water. We will be seeing the past, present and future. For with God the future is as certain as the past. John's vision shows the events of seven years in macro view and micro view. we are shown series of sevens with an interlude between the 6th and 7th of a series. Then we are given more details but not chronological in order. We witness the events of 7 years, past, present and future, on the final day of the 70th week of Daniel, and then we decend to earth.

   Can you see it now? John's vision was the Last day, the day of the second coming. We were being debriefed of what has taken place since we were raptured and taken to the place prepared for us to be with Jesus for the wedding week.
   We are about to be presented as the bride of Jesus and return to earth. We are shown the battle before the battle is fought and the outcome is certain.

   This is one of the keys to the book of Revelation. The vision is not chronological in the effects of the seals, trumpets, bowls. Many events take place the same day. The middle of the 70th week is a busy day. Satan gets thrown from heaven, Antichrist is wounded and healed and then to prove he's god kills the 2 witnesses of Revelation 11. The 6th seal effect takes place on this day as well.

    We are being shown a vision. Were not in a stadium looking down watching everything live and in the present. We are witnessing past, present and future of the final 70th week of Daniel.

                                                    Paul2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    For those of you who do not believe the church will be raptured before the great tribulation, I have a question.

  Are you nervous? I think you should be. God's time piece isn't TIMEX but ISRAEL!

  Israel is all important. The peace they seek brings the end time.



LOL

Yeah thats why all those books about Israel ,1988 and the Rapture were  so accurate.

Hitch

Adn how do you fit this in with John 6;39?

Hi Hitch,
This is Keith. Long time no talk. The question I have always asked concerning this verse is: The last day of what? Is it the very last day that there will ever be? Is it the last day of an era? Jesus had a lot of other things to add to His very simple statement in John 6:39 that forces me to define the last day as something other than the very last day of all time. This to me makes sense of the other scriptures that otherwise "to me" make little sense. Perhaps you can enlighten me as to how you tie these verses together. I mean this seriously. I am not claiming I know it all. Your view point interests me.
By the way, my youngest son is now at Westpoint! Never thought it could happen to a poor old custodian/ex auto parts salesman.

asaph

    Hitch,

   You seem to love laughing at others, while acting superior to us perhaps you'd like to demonstrate how smart you are for us all.

    This should be easy for a scholar like yourself.

    Below this is a passage from Daniel chapter 9:24

 24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to us dummies when exactly did JERUSALEM, the Holy city to which this prophecy applies, fulfill the things required for the prophecy to be fulfilled?

     When did Jerusalem :

 1. Finish the transgression?
 2. Make an end of sins?
 3. Make reconciliation for iniquity?
 4. Bring in everlasting righteousness?
 5. Seal up the vision and prophecy?
 6. Anoint the most Holy?

    Please tell us when these things occured, and be specific.
You have stated before that Daniel's 70th week is complete and finished and history.

   Heres my answers to the questions above:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

     God does not lie. If Jerusalem has not completed all of the above, the 70 weeks of Daniel are not fulfilled yet. To honestly believe that Jerusalem has completed the prophecy is laughable although not funny.

    Nobody sins in Jerusalem? You see everlasting righteousness in Jerusalem do you? You can't just pick and choose parts of a prophecy. It is either totally fulfilled or it is not totally fulfilled. I would like to see the dates when each of the six things listed were fulfilled.

   Its easy to mock others but much harder to prove them wrong. The news bears witness to the FACT that Jerusalem has not fulfilled this prophecy as of now.

   O.k. Hitch, show us all how stupid we are, give us the answers to my six questions from the prophecy.

   If Daniel's 70th week took place right after the 69th week, Jerusalem should have fulfilled all six things by 40 a.d.

   If history serves me well I can recall James was killed in Jerusalem in 62 a.d. Somehow that doesn't seem to fit the six things listed in the prophecy does it? If Jerusalem had made an end of sin, how could James be martyred there?

   Then again if Jerusalem had brought in everlasting righteousness why does the news show suicide bombings in the city? How long is everlasting righteousness? What happened to it? Did God lie? Or by some strange chance might you be wrong? I doubt you'll admit your wrong, you'd rather discredit God than discredit Hitch.

 Well there you have it, six simple questions: for us dummies the answers are simple:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

  Now you show us your answers in detail please.

  LOL! good luck!                          Paul2 8)

What is the first resurrection?

By Rev. Charles Cooper

"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years."

With these words in Revelation 20:5-6, the apostle John introduces a new concept—the first resurrection. A natural implication in the mind of some is the notion that if there is a "first resurrection," there must be at least a "second resurrection." Scholars are divided over what constitutes the resurrection. In other words, is there one general resurrection or is there a multi-phased resurrection of the righteous separated by a thousand years from a final resurrection of the wicked? Revelation 20:5-6 clearly indicates a separation between those raised at the beginning of the 1000-year period and those raised at the end of it. What, then, is the first resurrection?

The New Testament does not have a single term for the resurrection. John 5:28-29 indicates that there will be a resurrection to life and a resurrection to judgment. However, no indication is given that these two events will not happen at the same time. It is the apostle Paul who delineates stages or groups of the resurrection. He writes, "…by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end…(1 Cor. 15:21-24a)." It is clear that Paul saw the resurrection of Christ and "those who are Christ’s at His coming" as two distinct aspects of the resurrection.

Paul designates the Lord’s resurrection as "first fruits." This is important. The term fruits in the Greek is a singular term, but represents a plural number (what is called a collective noun). The concept of a "first portion" or "first fruit" is a familiar one. In the natural order, the first fruit of any crop would involve more than one, thus, the NASB’s translation first fruits. Interestingly, Matthew 27:52-53 states, "and the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many." These individuals should be included in the first fruits of the general resurrection.

The essential point that we can deduce from 1 Corinthians 15 is that the separation of one phase of the resurrection from another does not nullify the designation the general resurrection. Therefore, the indication in Revelation 20 that a resurrection will occur in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium is consistent with the teachings of the apostle Paul. John limits this particular resurrection to those beheaded for refusing to actively participate in the worship of Antichrist. Killed for their faithfulness to Christ, the beheaded faithful are blessed because they have "a part (literally, to experience along with others [Louw/Nida, § 90.83]) in the first resurrection." Only by spiritualizing this passage and ignoring the textual details can this group be made to represent all believers of all the ages. John clearly intends a smaller group, every single one of them, beheaded.

Consequently, we are able to posit that John’s resurrection to life and his first resurrection both refer to a general multi-phased resurrection of the righteous. It stretches from the resurrection of Christ and those raised with Him (Mat. 24:52-53), to those raised at the Rapture/Parousia (1 Cor. 15:23), to those beheaded martyrs raised in close proximity to the beginning of the millennium (Rev. 20:4-5). This is the first resurrection.

John does not designate the resurrection that will follow the millennium as the "second resurrection." Probably the reason John does not do this is that the resurrection after the millennium will be distinctively different from the first. In Revelation 20:5, John records that "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed." This by definition must involve the wicked that have not been raised to this point in biblical chronology. Revelation 20:11-15 describes the resurrection unto judgment, which John alluded to in John 5:38-39. This judgment is generally called the white throne judgment. John states that anyone’s whose name is not found in the book of life such a one will be thrown into the lake of fire—the second death.

That the book of life would be consulted at this point highlights the fact that both believers and unbelievers will be present at this judgment. Isaiah 65:17-25 supports this conclusion. There, Isaiah indicates that those who enter the kingdom in physical bodies will live long lives during the temporal kingdom on earth. However, he also indicates that these people will die. While the resurrected saints will not die, those Jews and Gentiles who survive the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:31ff will enter the kingdom, but will not live the entire 1,000 years. Thus "the white throne judgment" will involve all the wicked dead of all the ages – with the exception of Antichrist, the false prophet (Rev 20:10) and the goats from the sheep and goat judgment of Matthew 25:41 – and the righteous dead who died during the 1000 years.

   There are 2 types of resurrection, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto death. Are you with me so far? Good.

   The resurrection unto life is the first resurrection. Still with me? Good.

   There are three distint groups of people that will be part of the first resurrection unto life. The Church is the first group, the Old Testament Saints are second group, the Tribulation Saints are the third group.

   The Church is the first stage of the first resurrection. The church has a special destiny apart from the Old testament Saints and Tribulation Saints. The Church is the Bride of Christ and is Raptured and taken to heaven to the place prepared for us by Jesus to experience the wedding week which parallels Daniel's 70th week on earth.

   At the end of the wedding week and last day of Daniel's 70th week the second stage of the first resurrection takes place and the Martyred Tribulation Saints are resurrected.
The Old Testament Saints are resurrected, and the people who survivors of Armmegeddon are judged.

                                                        Paul2

S A L U  T E ! I expect you'll be telling us how well he is doing as the days pass.

Well K the first place to look is the text.  Since I dont need it to be the 'last day' of any certain era, (church age perhaps? find that one in the Scriptures,,) a straightforward reading is all that is needed. The complications only come when something written AFTER this word from our Lord's own lips  was first heard, is interjected into the time line.

As for the term,  half the uses of this term  are found in this chapter. Seven of eight  uses are found in John's book. But I wonder,,, do you allow that 'raise up' means anything other than resurrection?  Back to work,, In 7;37 'last day' is qualified with 'of the feast'. This tells us two things,  at least in  chapter seven a literal understanding is required.  We also can note that when neccessary, as in your question "last day of what? , when a qualifier is need it is provided.

Nehemiah 8;18 is the only OT usage. A cursory look will reveal ,interestingly enough, that the 'last day' is in this case positively literal, and is also qualified  as the last day of a feast.

This leaves six uses in John. Each is directly related to the resurrection. Five are spoken by our Lord  personally . One is spoken to our Lord. Seems that a plain straight forward 'literal' understanding is demanded by the text,  there being no  qualifications  which our Lord was most able to provide,  so there is no reason to adjust the meaning unless  later writtings are given greater wieght and used to set the context from back to front. Does the Resurrection account make sense without the Cross?

In contrast we have our Lord's own previosly spoken words regarding the resurrection.


John 5:24-29
24   Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (a present reality)
25   Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.


 So folks have gotten  pretty wierd notions up to make this work. I reckon is pretty simple.  Jesus is speaking of 'spiritually dead' and some even at that time were being raise dup this was through the born-again process. also John uses this term in his letters to describe the bretheren.

26   For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27   And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28   Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (future reality)
29   And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

V28 is a different story. Christ has just warned the he alone is the ultimate Judge. To us this is obvious,to them it was brand new and astonishing news. He declares that 'all who are in the graves' shall hear his voice. Again this a vastly different from  v25. In this case the evil and the good hear the call to bodily resurrection. It takes some  advanced gymnastics to  fit any time lapse into v 29 at all much less 1,000 years. (or 1007 as some do). .

This is what sets the context for his speach on the resurrection in chapter six. Not whatever Paul says decades later. Not what we read in the Apocalypse which doesnt exist at this time. Those things must conform to what our Lord has spoken, not the other way around.

So here is the challenge;

Find a reason to not place a face value (literal) understanding at 'last day' in chapter six the very same way you do use a literal understanding of 'raise up', useing something which could affect the context, meaning something which came  before this was spoken. That leaves the entire OT.

I'l wait to see if you find anything.

Take care

Hitch

God does not lie. If Jerusalem has not completed all of the above, the 70 weeks of Daniel are not fulfilled yet.

So whan he says 'SEVENTY WEEKS'  (and gives  reason to uderstand these are 'weeks of years' or  'seven sevens') He doesn t lie. Niether does he make mistakes.

Your details are not hard Paul, and I will answer directly as soon as you reconcile  your own statement above  God does not lie and the begining of the passage you brought up;

Dan 9:24
24   Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people
(KJV)

He can count too.

Take care

Hitch

    The famous seventh Trumpet announces the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus has come. This is the last day of Daniel's 70th week on earth. Notice the verse in bold type


Revelation 11:15  "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
   16: And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
   17: Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
   18: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
   19: And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

   Compare the above verses to the seventh vial passages




 17: And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
   18: And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
   19: And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
   20: And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
  21: And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

     They are both the same event. The 7th trumpet is the announcement that Jesus is now beginning His kingdom, The 7th vial or bowl is the judgement plaque of the earthquake and hail.

    The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial both take place on the last day of Daniel's 70th week. Jesus is returning to earth to establish His kingdom, this is the Day of the second coming!

    John sees the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints, after he has already seen them in heaven, sort of a flash back. John is asked to identify the tribulation saints but doesn't recognize them. He might have been thinking to himself "how did they get here" and in chapter 20 he is shown how they are resurrected.

   All the events of Revelation are not chronolgical, some are but many aren't. You are getting an overview of 7 years, what takes place on earth and in heaven. John sees past, present and future, because to God its all the same. God sees our future in past tense. He has declared the outcome from the beginning. God is awesome! He reveals truth, and reveals lies.

                                                             Paul2

     Hitch,

    God can also STOP THE CLOCK which he did after  Palm Sunday 32 a.d. The 70th week has not begun yet just as Jerusalem has not entered into the 70th week yet.

    You'll know when the 70th week is complete because Jerusalem will be perfect, Sinless, Righteous forever. As long as buses are blown up in Jerusalem the 70th week has not been fulfilled.

    Yes, its that simple!                  

p.s. nice DODGE of an answer, I'm not fun to debate am I?

      The truth is tough to beat!                  Paul2 8)

Hitch,
What you are saying is compelling but I have a question. Can God add revelation to clarify a previous statement that Jesus made? After all Jesus did say that the Comforter would show them things to come, things that prviously were not shown to them, even by Himself. Paul said in 1Co 15:51,52  Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now a mystery is defined by Webster:
MYS'TERY, n. [L. mysterium; Gr. a secret. This word in Greek is rendered also murium latibulum; but probably both senses are from that of hiding or shutting; Gr. to shut, to conceal.

1. A profound secret; something wholly unknown or something kept cautiously concealed, and therefore exciting curiosity or wonder; such as the mystery of the man with the iron mask in France.

2. In religion, any thing in the character or attributes of
God, or in the economy of divine providence, which is not revealed to man.

3. That which is beyond human comprehension until explained. In this sense, mystery often conveys the idea of something awfully sublime or important; something that excites wonder.

A mystery is something that was not previously known but Paul says he is going to show it to them. So this is something that even Jesus did not reveal till now by Paul.

If we take Jesus' words literally, and we do, then we must take Pauls words and John's words literally also, unless qualified by context.

God told Daniel a simple truth in Chapter 12.

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Sounds like one ressurrection because some information is withheld.  But later God says:

Dan 12:9  ... Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

So God is saving revelation for the time of the end. Shall we not accept it when it comes because it was not previously spoken in this manner? Does the later revelation make the former truth non-literal? Of course not, it clarifies what was previously spoken.

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here we have two ressurrections. They cannot be the same ressurrection and certainly do not have to take place at the same time. The character of each is unique. One concerns the righteous the other the evil. We know from later teaching that the good people receive glorified bodies but the evil are not raised incorruptable. Paul admits to order in ressurrection: Christ the firstfruits, then they that are His (what about the damned?)at His coming, then follows the end. So according to this verse the last day is before the very end. Remember Paul is showing us a mystery not previously known.
I could go on and on but I think I bored you enough. ;)

asaph

Yawn,,, Proved a NT Scripture defining and describing this 'clock'.


Then you will need to show why ,if you can place a gap between 69&70 why I cant place gaps  anywhere I want as well. But first  you're basing your claim here that God can 'stop the clock'  and you must support that from Scripture. Adn if I recall you like to ask for 'details'  So I'll do the same .Please provied the details  the Aposotle you will be quoting provided regarding this 'clock'.

But then if all that trash is true and Israel is the key,,, well honey  its been a long time since 1948, or 1967....

Here we have two ressurrections. They cannot be the same ressurrection and certainly do not have to take place at the same time. The character of each is unique.  No the character of the resurrection is the same. it is physical. The character of the judgements rendered is different Actually you have proven the point. You had no choice but to leave what Jesus actually said, and in the plainest of terms, and cite teachiings added decades later.

Can God add revelation to clarify a previous statement that Jesus made? First of all this implies that Christ was a poor speaker and teacher, unable or umwilling to teach his own followers what he really meant.  So  his basic honesty is called into account since he told the disciples that :


Matt 13:11
11   He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.(sometimes 'mystery' is just a figure of speech)
(KJV)

So that leads to another question. What should we add to the Lord's prayer? Or the Sermon on the Mount?

If nothing should be added then why do we consider these  complete? What standard are we to use to descide which of our Lord's own teachings was careless and incomplete,,needing editing two thousand years later?

Also we should question Jesus care and concern for those he was speaking to. If you or I were to make an important staement that prople would  very likely base and even pay their lives to uphold, and we had intentionally left out some important clause or definition, wouldny we be liable before God?

For your objection to have legs here you need to show why the original audience would  have reason to know 'last day'  should not be taken at face value, since  the text gives no basis for suc a claim. And you need to do so six times.

But what is really important here is that the explanation is being heard from our lord's own lips. Thats what he is doing in John six. Now the Book may not have been finally edited in Paul's time but I have no doubt any and all colleted quoted from Jesus  were reveared as what they were;The very Word of God. So  when Pauls reads what would become John six do you think he would be careful to conform or do you think he would correct Jesus ' errors?

Take care

Hitch

    Hitch,

  Heres proof God stopped the clock between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel:

  1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression!
  2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins!
  3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity!
  4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness!
  5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy!
  6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy!

   There you are Hitch, six good reasons that prove the 70th week have not been fulfilled.

Yawn,,,,  Find some Apostolic support for your gap. Any NT author will suffice. In the mean I will quote Jesus Christ 'the time is fulfilled'.

Then you neeed to produce some standard  so you can stop me from placing gaps whereever I choose. In the mean I'l accept your 'proof' as soon as you get a Apostle to confirm it.

Pardon me if I dont hold my breath waiting.

Take care

Paul

When they crucified CHRIST.

Hitch,
      I'm over joyed that you find me interesting.  ;).....What I find more disturbing is that some think there is no more sin in this world (#2)!!!! What world are you living in anyway? I live with the affect of sin in my life every day. I sin when I don't want to sin. This is a fallen world and sin will be here until Christ removes us.
  And then on  Point #3 seal up visions and Prophecy.
  Are you saying that all prophecy has been fullfill? I know some believe this, I don't. I think that the gifts of the Spirit are still with us, but we the church has gotten so far off from what the Lord intended that the gifts are abused and neglected. Nothing is sealed up and till the church is removed. The restrainer is the church. I believe The Holy Spirit will be gone with the removal of the church,  Christ promised to send any who believed in him,his comforter. With the church/Holy Spirit gone this world is in big trouble. HOW can you say there is no sin.
     THe great Apostasy spoken about in 2Thes 2   Now brethren concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ...........3)that day will not come unless the falling away comes first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition. Who oppeses and exalts himself about all thai is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God .......6) And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only He who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.8) And then the lawless one will be revealed...........
     I guess I don't understand where you coming from.
     Do you believe in a rapture at some point?
     Do you believe in the 7yrs of trubluations?
     Do you believe in the end time tribulations or have they come and gone?
   Have a Kinder spirit with what you write. I am sincere Hitch. What you have to say may need to be said. (I don't agree with your teaching so far, but I don't deny anyone the right to teach it, unless it is blaintly against scripture) SO teach and let people read it, we aren't stupid, maybe not all high IQ'd but we all have one purpose in mind here. To teach and to learn. Being high minded honestly turns people away. Keep a teachable spirit Hitch.

CORRECTION......sorry Hitch, it wasn't your answer that I was posting too, my mistake. So you've been redeemed for a moments ;) But other than my mistaken you as having given this answer. Jesus did, I am curious about how you believe on the rapture teachings.
 

1. Jerusalem hasn't Finished the transgression?

Mat 26:3,4  Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.

2. Jerusalem hasn't Made an end to sins?


Rom 6:6,7  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 8:1,2  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Heb 10:17-20  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;




3. Jerusalem hasn't Made reconciliation for iniquity?

Heb 10:16-18  This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more  offering for sin.

2Co 5:18  And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation  


4. Jerusalem hasn't brought in everlasting righteousness?

3:20-24  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


5. Jerusalem hasn't Sealed up the vision and prophecy?

Joh 19:28-30  After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


6. Jerusalem hasn't Anointed the most Holy?

Joh 12:13  Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna ; Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Heb 4:14,15  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

" If you find one poor enough to be interested in your opinions hold tighly"
 
We are known by our fruits. And there for whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them for this is the law and the prophets. (Matt 7:12)  

 IF I find one poor enough?....I feel very rich thank you, not that there aren't moments that hurting someone real bad hasn't crossed my mind...like my husband, goin on 30 yrs, my church, that a little over 110 yr old, Many bible scholar, and teachers,way back to the 16th century I believe. I must be REAL good at holdin on to them since they have died and turned to dust..... Your tryin to prove your opinions here since Paul 2 began the thread.  

"WRT the rapture, I believe every thing Jesus said about it"
 Man so glad to hear that, so what is the debate about?????? But I'm still concerned.Your taken all the fun out of the debate if you do it that way Hitch. What did Jesus say about the rapture? Nuttin??????     buzzer....... Matt chapter 24, (which is a prophecy from the OT),  Jesus warns us about false messiahs....which really become a prob during the time of Tribulations, Matt 24:27 (also prophcy from Dan, and Ezek) Jesus speaks of his second coming.Matt 25:32...Parable of the fig tree, ...this generation will not pass away till all these things are fulfilled.....verse 36)no one know the hour or the day not even the angels in Heaven. Chapter 25 the ten virgins. Jesus is teaching us to be prepared. Then Jesus ends that chapt with the judgement. And one of my favorite verses is found in John  Chapt 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and recieve you to MYSELF. John 14:18, I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you......John 14; 28 You have herad me say to  I am going away and coming back to you, John 17:12 Jesus speaks very quickly about the son of perdition. That is a reference to the end times and tribulations.  Jesus was a teacher  , so you have  Daniel, Ezk, Isa,  any of the prophecy books written then. SO what do you think Jesus says about the gathering together in the sky.....or the rapture? Cause I think he is teaching us to watch ourselves and be ready to meet him in the air. NO hot air balloons, no planes, no big bounce on the trapoline. He brings us to meet him in the sky. SO cool, I would love to meet you on your way up. Look for me, I'll be one of those that I'm there and then I'm not, twinkle of an eye right. ;)
blessing to all who believe

 After my previous posting I realized that it might be good to add some of what the scriptures teach CHristians about the end times, will Christians go thru the tribulations? Of coarse it depends on your views to begin with. pre trib, mid trib, post trib. We each have a slant in how we read the scriptures from teaching of our youth, teaching now, diff thinks we've heard over the years. And sometimes it much easier to think NO, who want to suffer right.  But there are some reason that a pre trib rapture/tribulations agrees with the scriptures.
    We are promised There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus Rom 8:1
      what is condemnation...(websters dic)....The act of condemning. The state of being condemned. Severe reproof; strong censure. A reason or occasion for condemning.  
       1 John 1:9   If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
          The church as a whole is cleansed by the blood of Jesus. Or he'd had to have died millions of times, one act and it was all done. We Christians need to ask forgiveness each day. We aren't made right thru suffering, (tribulations) we are made right thru the one act of Jesus Christ, our daily asking and recieveing of forgiveness. Even the daily tribulatios we each suffer thru, won't match the time of tribulations when the church is removed, the restrainer is gone. Suffering will get much much worse.
     The Church in 2 Thes. were suffering lots of persecutions, and they wanted to know how much longer would they have to suffer thru, or was this the tribulations he'd taught about them earlier. Paul teaches them  2 Thes 2:1-3 Not to be soon shaken in mind or trouble, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as through the day of Christ had come. that day will not come unless the falling away comes frist and the son of man is revealed, the son of perdition. (Jesus also mentions the son of perdition John 17:12)
       what is perdition  
n : (Christianity) the abode of Satan and the forces of evil; where sinners suffer eternal punishment: "Hurl'd headlong...To bottomless perdition, there to dwell"- John Milton; "a demon from the depths of the pit" [syn: Hell, Inferno, infernal region, nether region, the pit] [ant: Heaven]

Some transilation might use the man of sin, the antichrist.
Pual  reminds the people of the church what he taught when he was with them. 2 Thes 2;5  Do you not remember that when I was still with you.
V)6 And now you know what is trstraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8) AND THEN the lawless one will be revealed.

Another reason to believe in the pre trib rapure  can be found in Rev 4:4   Around the throne were 24 elders and on the thrones I say 24 sitting, clothed in white and they had crowns of gold on their heads.
crowns are a symbol of the church found in Eph 2:6 ...made us to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Rev 19:8 ...and to her (the chruch) it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen clean and bright.
2 Tim 4:8 Finally there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge will give to me on that day and to all who have loved his appearing.
 
Does this answer when we will recieve our crowns, before during or after......  I believe the church (24 elders represent the church) is seen by Paul  before Tribulations has begun. Paul is describes Rev 4-9 teh church in Heaven robed and crowned Raptured

God isn't a God of vengance to those who love him, (his church)  the time of tribulations is Gods wrath poured out on those who have refused, denied and blasphmeded his name. Pauls in 2Thes 1:7,8 explains.... you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed, but taking vengeance on those who do no know God and those who do not obey the gospel.
   And similiar experience can be seen in the old testament when God saved Lot from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, because he was a righteous man. ONE single righteous person......what about a whole church?
Gen. 19:17, and 19
For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.......lots has to be out of the way for God to send his judgement.

These are some very important issues that need to be prayed about, seek the Lord and find peace in our heart and mind. God doesn't want anyone to persish, no not one......
blessings  

musicllover,
a bit of a quote of your post...




John 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Is this not a reference to Judas? How can this be future when Jesus says 'fulfilled'

The 'Strongs' definition of the word fulfilled is..
G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

  Hitch,

    I just got back from vacation and see that some pages have disappeared. I was able to read your responce as I was walking out the door for vacation Saturday morning. I know you responded to my question and I thank you for taking the time and effort. I'd say by your responce, which was detailed that the simple answer was "yes" , you believe the 70th week of Daniel is complete and was completed after the 69th week was ended.

    Heres where the next logical step in the debate takes us.

     "The Time Gap theories!" I had thought we were getting ahead of ourselves with the time gap theories before we had established our respective positions because I was focusing on Jerusalem in relation to Dan. 9:24. Now that weve settled where we stand we can proceed to deal with time gaps.

     First allow me to present the need for time gaps for both our views as I see them necessary for both views and I'll explain why.

     The 69th week ended April 6th 32a.d. which was Palm Sunday. I consider this to be fact because of the starting date of the seventy weeks prophecy :March 14, 445b.c. which is recorded in secular history books.

    We can debate the above starting date later but allow me to continue to complete the scenario.

     Without any time gap between the 69th and 70th week the following should have occured. The 70th week begins with a covenant between "many" which further study reveals to be 10 nations. Without any time gap whatsoever, this event should have occured Monday April 7th 32a.d. while Jesus was still alive during the week leading up to the crucifixion. History records no such covenant. The middle of the 70th week would have been around September 35a.d. when the prophecized "Abomination that causes Desolation"  would have occured without a time gap but history records no such event. The end of the 70th week would have been completed around April 39 a.d. History does not support this view.

     Time gap theories:

    First time gap theory I'll address is a time gap to 63a.d. as the start of the 70th week and ending 70a.d. with the destruction of the temple. There are many variations to the dates but most tie the temple destruction by the Romans into the 70th week either as mid week or the end of the week.

    Problem is that by trying to fit the destruction of the temple in 70a.d. into the 70 weeks prophecy all other events in the prophecy can not be taken literally. A literal reading of Daniel 9:24 would lead the reader to assume Jerusalem would be transformed and no longer be a city with murders,sin, prophetic future events, but a city perfected by God and in total compliance with his will. This is obviously not the case now. Its not just Daniel 9:24 to consider but Revelation 13 and many other prophecies that give details into the final 70th week of Daniel.

    The 70th week of Daniel is in the future is the time gap theory that best fits all other prophetic Scriptures.

    The future starting of the 70th week begins with the signing of a 7 year covenant between Israel and 10 nations represented by a man known by many names and titles such as The man of Sin, Antichrist, The Lawless One, The Beast, 666, The beast out of the sea, The Little Horn, and many others. This man will lead Israel into a false peace which He will break midweek by going to a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, receive a fatal wound that is "healed" and claim himself to be God. I'll call him Antichrist for the sake of a name, Antichrist will stop the renewed daily sacrifice and kill the two witnesses of Revelation 11 at the mid week to "prove" he is God. No man could stop the testimony of the 2 witnesses which lasted for 1260 days, from the signing of the covenant (which begins the 70th week) to the mid week when Antichrist begins his 42 month reign (see Rev. 13). At the end of the 70th week Jesus Christ returns to earth to establish His millenial Kingdom and destroys the Antichrist, and purifies Jerusalem who finally will accept Him as the true Messiah after being deceived by Antichrist.

    When the 70th week is placed as a future event all other prophecies can be fulfilled literally. When The 70th week is placed in the past many, many, many prophecies must be taken symbolicly, like the mark of the beast, which history does not mention. I take the Bible literally unless it is clear something is symbolic. The mark of the beast is literal, Rev.20 makes it clear that those who refused to accept the mark were beheaded and were to be resurrected.

     Bottom line Hitch is we think differently, it doesn't mean I'm stupid and your smart. There are perfectly good reasons I have the views I have. I examine the Bible as a detective searching out a mystery. The answers are all there but it requires work and study to uncover many deeply hidden truths that the Apostle Paul told us to search out. Paul clearly stated that there are mysteries to be solved. Things hidden from all but the Holy Spirit guided seekers of truth.

    I was never one to accept knowing part of things, I want to know as much as permitted. Some things are off limits, such as what the seven thunders in Rev. spoke that John was not allowed to write. I never try to solve a mystery that is clearly not knowable but as far as Revelation is concerned, John was told Not to seal the Book, theres a blessing for those who study the Book, so I seek to understand.  

    I never call you stupid, I disagree with you, but I don't consider you to be an stupid, unlearned man. Somebody mentioned I.Q._s in a post responding to these discussions. I took several different I.Q. tests to see if I was stupid or not. I got 138 on three different tests and a 135 on another. I'm not as stupid as many think I am just because I disagree with them. I don't just look at verses of scripture in a singular context but I analize them against all Scriptures that deal with the subject. Everything should fit together in harmony, not conflict. I have found harmony with Pre-Trib Rapture and a future 70th week of Daniel. I have found nothing but conflicts with all other theories. I'm not stupid or brainwashed, I'm convinced by the evidence in the Bible.

    I could be arrogant and add that the Holy Spirit has also lead me to this conclusion but I won't because to assume that I've been led by the Spirit to all my conclusions would somehow infer that everybody else who disagrees with me was not being led or indwelled by the Spirit. I don't know why Holy Spirit indwelt believers differ on biblical views as much as we do, but I don't question that a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit because we disagree. Perhaps the answer is teachability. I try to keep a teachable Spirit and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal things to me, in fact I often ask that my eyes be opened to a truth I have not noticed before. More often than not I discover something awesome I never saw in that light before.

      I start off showing respect and I respond with respect when I'm shown respect. When I'm attacked I go on the offensive, when I'm mocked I ... well you know, I throw in my strange humor but I'm never trying to be cruel, so don't assume I'm trying to be mean, rude or whatever else you may think, I'm trying to add humor into what often can become heated debate. I don't call people names. I might say:

(in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn) "The boys to short... all the good ones go over his head!"  But its my way of saying: I don't agree and don't understand why you don't see it the way I do. These debates can get really boring without some humor added to the argueing. I don't seriously try to insult anyone but it seems many take their "serious" shots at me.

                                                               Paul2 8)

    Hitch,

    Take a look at these verses:

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
 
     At the time of the APOSTLE PAUL'S ministry Israel is still blinded in part UNTIL the FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN

      At the time of Paul, God hadn't finished with Israel. Israel
 hadn't accepted the Lord and their sins remained. As long as the Church is on earth, Israel will remain blinded in part until the fulness (completed Church) of the Gentiles be come in.

     What exactly is Paul saying in the verses above to you?

    Its late and I don't have time to go further tonight but think over these verses above and we'll continue.

    By the way, knock off the I'm smarter than stupid you tone. Let the rest of those reading these posts be the judge of who's smart or dumb. By your standard the temple is still standing in Jerusalem, which is now righteous forever, but somehow I think God has a higher standard of righteousness than Jerusalem has now obtained.

    One more thing, see the word MYSTERY in the verse below?

    Well Paul is telling us that there is a new revealed truth to learn. He doesn't want us to be IGNORANT of the mystery. Why? So we don't act wise in our own conceits. Whats the Mystery? God is not finished with Israel yet, first the Church must be completed. All the Gentiles chosen to be part of the Church must be "IN" the Church, thereby completing the Church. The Church makes Israel Jeolous, but why? Because its completed and Raptured is the answer. Then and only then will Israel's blindness in part be removed.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

   Seems the APOSTLE PAUL is telling us something important that we must learn. Question is are we teachable, well are we?

                                                              Paul2 8)

Reba,
      sorry for the delay, not sure what the deal is, I tried to post and my machine would just sit there.
Yes you are right that the scripture in John 17:12 referrs to the judas, the traitor. I thought it was interesting that Jesus uses those words when that is what the anti Christ is called as well. Where is the scripture thats says it would have been better if Judas had never been born.......the parallell between Judas and the anti christ is very real. It gets into the predestinanation teaching, its so hard to think that God created someone just to have them do something that would send them to hell. Sorry I should have explain what I meant. Just useage of the term "son of perdition".....and that being what the anit christ is call in some transalations.   Good job keeping me honest. thank you

......quoted........ I start off showing respect and I respond with respect when I'm shown respect. When I'm attacked I go on the offensive, when I'm mocked I ... well you know, I throw in my strange humor but I'm never trying to be cruel, so don't assume I'm trying to be mean, rude or whatever else you may think, I'm trying to add humor into what often can become heated debate. I don't call people names. I might say:

(in the voice of Foghorn Leghorn) "The boys to short... all the good ones go over his head!"  But its my way of saying: I don't agree and don't understand why you don't see it the way I do. These debates can get really boring without some humor added to the argueing. I don't seriously try to insult anyone but it seems many take their "serious" shots at me. ....end quote.

I have to agree with you again, maybe both my oars aren't in the water at the same time always, a little humor never hurt nobody. In the voice of the little chicken hawk, pusing up the feathers on his arms......let me at em! let me at em!......

Musicllover,

Thanks for the reply   :)


I have no problem at all with knowing GOD is sovereign. He is the potter  i am clay. HE raised up Pharaoh to his end. But  that topic would be another thread  :P

  "The Time Gap theories!" .......
Ok this is a shot in the dark, but since the it seems we are talking about gaps.......I was just wondering if this gap between the 69 week and the 70 week might parallell with the gap between the Old and new testaments ?   Anyway this  how I understand the gap........first it usually invovles lots of time at the dentist........OH NO NO the other "gap"  Oh ya the one where my daughters like to shop......NO NO NO NO  :P.

The "Gap"  is call the Church age. Personally I believe this time was made for us gentiles......
 SO here is the gap in question, seems there are 2 times Jerusalem has been destroyed so keep them like 434 yr apart.

Dan 9:24, 25 .......(here is the prophetic proof Hitch.) It says
Seventy weeks are determinded for your people (this implys 70 total if like you say all is finished your already why over the determined number of 70). Ok let me begin again.
 70 weeks are determinded for your people and for the your holy city to finish the transgressions to make and end to sins....(that answers another of Pauls 2 6 points) and to anoint the most Holy. (yet another) Know therefore that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there shall be 7 weeks and 62 week: The street shall be built again, and the wall....
The first the destruction and rebuilding of Jerusalem can be proven Historically 444 BC to 395BC. Artaxerxes allows Jerusalem to be restored. So there is the first 7 weeks.
 
The next 434 yrs is all the events we understand from 535 BC to the crucifixion of Christ. That 62 weeks.

This scriptural proof is found in  Dan 9:26 And after the 62 weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sancutuary.
Then the second destruction of Jerusalem found in history 70 AD.  

  If you add this two numbers together 7 + 62 = 69 weeks ......so you have 1 week missing........... That is talked about in Dan 9:27 Then the prince shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. BUt in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offerings.  7+62=69+1+70 weeks....
    ;D

in the voice of porkey pig......ablaablablab that all folks
blessings

OH Man you all type faster than me or something......so why do you need a NT support Hitch ? The prophetic books of the old testment is what the Nt is based on. Its the foundations of why Jesus is who he is and why he done what he done and will do what he is going to do.
Sounds like a song is coming on.........lol,

H Man you all type faster than me or something......so why do you need a NT support Hitch ?

Im astonished any believer  could ask that question.

I'll cite two  short reasons, and one example;

1.
It saves a lot of time. All kinds of screwy notions are taught and believed by folks all over the world,based on the OT(and NT for that matter). If I inquire  of this or that based on the Prophets  the screwyer the notion the more easily it is show to be what it is by citation of the Apostolic interpretation(s)  which are of course found only in the NT.

2.

Luke 24:44-45
44   And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45   Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
(KJV)

Hence:
1 Cor 12:28
28   And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
(KJV)
'First apostles'... and we have the cannonized writtings they sent our way, and they learned  from the Master himself. Ignore  them at your peril.


Example:

Joel 2:28-31
28   And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29   And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30   And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31   The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
(KJV)

 Now if you're  a lot more intuned to God than me, a matter I sincerely do not doubt, you can see in this text the reality of speaking in unknown tongues with a little fire over the heads of the speakers,,, right? For myself, I will rely on the interpretive ministries granted as 'gifts' to the church. That way I know that when Paul speaks of a 'fleshy' heart that Ezekiel was talking about what Christ would accomplish etc.

take care

Hitch

If you add this two numbers together 7 + 62 = 69 weeks ......so you have 1 week missing........... That is talked about in Dan 9:27 Then the prince shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. BUt in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offerings.  7+62=69+1+70 weeks....


One 'week' of years... Hmmmmm

Jesus begins his ministry  by saying ;

Mark 1:14-15
14   Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15   And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
(KJV)

 Do you know of any prophecy other than Dan's that  is or could be construed as a 'clock'?  I dont.  So I'll contend Jesus is referring to Dan 9, while granting he does not say so explicitly.
Shorlty after he is baptized and John calls him the' Lamb of God'

In the next three and a half years Jesus gains his following ,performs miracles and enters Jerusalem as King.
Then the Cross and Resurrection.
Again  bowing as I do the the authority of the NT and noting the writer's  understanding of the ancient Scriptures  we find an interesting message:

Heb 9:26
26   For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
(KJV)


So far we have

'the time is fulfilled'

the baptism of our Lord

the inagural utterence of the greatest of NT truths;'Behold the Lamb of God'

the 'Prince of Peace' confirming the New covenant with his own blood and as confirmed by H9;26 in the very act of his
Sacrifice,  rendering the old world of daily sacefices obselete.

Does any of this passage seem familiar?


Mark 14:24
24   And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many.
(KJV)


He uses the same term we see in ,,,Dan 9 while he is explicitly announcing,,, the New Testament which is the same as New Covenant.

Do you think there is a correlation between his public work of 3 1/2 years and the settling of the terms,(confirmation by blood) of the Covenant?

Futurists make a great deal of Jesus  coming to the 'lost sheep of Israel'.  Far too many times they take it upon themselves to add 'only'  to M15;24 even though some of his earlist converts were gentiles. But these same folks forget  that  it takes a while ,for the majority of the Apsotles evengelism to move beyong he Nation.

About the time of Stephen's martyrdom,,, or about seven years from the time Jesus was baptized.

Dont forget, the last of the OT Prophets under the influence of the Holy Spirit  introduces Jesus ,not as a temporal king, not as Messiah, but the 'Lamb of God'.
Only this office holder  is equipped to meet the requirements of Dan 9;27, making forever obselete the blood os sheep and goats.

Take care

Hitch

 :o :o :o :o
Hitch,
       I am astonished that you set there and say no to the OT teachings,  any historical, or biblecal proof, and to save time.....afraid of a little hard work? Cause I am, its already written for me.... The OT teaching is the bibical proof, Historical proof. Then you turn around and say DON"t FORGET the OT prophets about Jesus, does that sound familiar?????? ???. The OT is good for prophcing Messiah but not the end time???????

You remind me of the scrpture that say.....like the days of Noah that demand a sign....Your shown by the math, refuse that cause it comes from the OT, your shown the historical proof, that can be found in history books at the library. I don't know what you do with that.  ALL that was written about the Messiah came true, even what was fortold WAY back in the OT....not just up close to the NT. Like that should make a diff.
 What I am beginnning to understand  is, that you believe we are now  in the millenium , Christ has returned removed his church, and the rest of us run around with 666 on our right hand or forehead? Show me historcal proof of any of that, surely millions of people missing in a twinkling of an eye would make some news paper. (Although twisted I am sure)
Satan has come and is bound for a 1000 yrs?
Who was the anti chirst,
WHo was the false prophet,
What about the 2 witness, they lay dead in the street for 3 days and I missed it??????? OH man, I shouldn't have slept so late.  :-[  What about the one world system, relegion? I know its not worth as much but the American dollar is still good, gettting littler but better than Husseins money at least.
I forgive your ingnorance, I don't mind that you don't believe how I do. But it does bother me that you pick and choose what fits your beliefs rather than believing what the scriptures says. You tell me I'm backwards.......I'm scared Hitch, do you live near me cause your so backwards you drive the wrong way down the road.  ;D

I'll read your (excuse me while I clear my throat) proof, and post more later. I just had to get that off my chest.


I have to admit that I've not read all you've posted because I can't believe you have the audacity to sit on your pedistal and change history or what was written in the OT.....saying it can screwed up. I do agree that Man can do anything they want, believe anything they want....Jesus warns us in Matt 24:15 (most all of Matt) There for when you see the abomination of desolation spoken by Daniel the propjet standing in the holy placethen let those who are in Judea flee to the mt..............Jesus used the OT, but its not good enough for you.  What is that the Rev says...... he who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the church........  No I'm not any more enlightended or have any special gift although I do believe in the gifts. (not with little flames a fire over my head either......but in my heart YES!!. You dear friend are listen with your foot or something. You say..."

Musicllover,

 do you sacrifice bulls and goats? I am going to guess you dont.  We dont because of the teachings of the NT ( Jesus the cross the resurection etc) correct?   So dont we need the support of the NT?

Reba,
         WHo said we didn't need the support of the NT? ??? The cross the resurrection as you but it, HOW can anyone forget it, do away with it, life would be useless.
Its Hitch who is saying he don't want the support of the OT. Cause its faster that way, or that it can be  "screwed up"
 I gave a some NT support from Matt. as well, and Hitch throws that out. Matt 24 mostly is JESUS imself talking about the end times. He is asking for apostolic PROOF, how much more can you ask?
      In my understanding its take the WHOLE book from Gen. to Rev. to complete the word of God, not just the NT, or not just the OT. To pick and choose what part of the complete book you want is to "take away from" and that is a sin.  

   Lets take a look at what the APOSTLE PAUL has to say about the mystery of God and the prophets.

Romans 16:25  "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
   26: But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

     Heres something to think about. Verse 26 above says "But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets"

    Think about something: the Scriptures of the prophets were being read and studied but until Paul revealed the mystery (Rapture- 70th week is future) the truth that was written was sealed up, meaning hidden. Until Paul started revealing hidden truths or mysteries they were overlooked by all who read them.

Daniel 12:9 "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

    The Book of Daniel was sealed but is now not sealed, we can discover the MYSTERY of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. We can use the Book of Revelation, which is not sealed to understand the Book of Daniel in great detail.

     

    Hitch,

  Let me show you were you went wrong in your responce above.

   First lets look at Daniel 9:26 very closely

Daniel 9:26  "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

   Lets see what this really is saying: At the end of the 69th week the Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself (for us). And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

   Lets work on this backwards to discover the truth. First we need to know what people destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary. HISTORY tells us that the ROMANS destroyed the city and sanctuary in 70a.d. Now we have identified the "people" that destroyed the city were the ROMANS. The "prince" is the prince of the Romans. This prince is NOT JESUS but is Antichrist, the little horn, the beast out of the sea, he has many names and titles but Jesus is not one of them.

 26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah (JESUS) be cut off, but not for himself: and the people (Romans)of the prince (Antichrist) that shall come shall destroy the city (Jerusalem)and the sanctuary (Temple); and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
   27: And he 9Antichrist)shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week (middle of 70th week) he (Antichrist) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    Seems your trying to fit the 69th and 70th week together to make it fit your theory Hitch. The 69th week was ended when Jesus was crucified, so the 70th week must begin after.

   Now it seems you want Jesus to be the prince of the people that destroyed Jerusalem, the Romans. So when exactly was the mid week of the 70th week? When was the abomination that causes desolation?

2Thessalonians 2:3  "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
   4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

     The above verse will be completed by the same "prince" in Daniel 9:27 and the same character we read about in Rev.13 as seen below:

 1: And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
   2: And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
   3: And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
   4: And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
   5: And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. ( 42 months from the abomination of desolation in the middle of the 70th week until Jesus returns to establish His millenial Kingdom at the end of the 70th week.)

   This is history? I think not! keep reading and then explain how history failed to record such events:

 6: And he (Antichrist) opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
   7: And it was given unto him (Antichrist) to make war with the saints (Tribulation Saints for the Rapture has already taken place), and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
   8: And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him 9Antichrist), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

   You laugh at me but you actually believe this is past history? Well then explain it. Put it all together because it makes no sense at all the way you've explained it so far.

                                                    Paul2 8)

LOL So the mystery refers to Dan? Where does Paul say that?

Where does Paul alludeto or mention directly Dan's 'weeks' and where does he specify the seventieth week?

But you already said Dan was no longer sealed. Hmmmm doenst take much to gather then that the 'time of the end' which literalist love to switch to end times,heh heh, must .By the definition you gave have come at or near Paul's time.(which is correct,btw as that document known as the NT teaches in Heb 9;26)  I reckon thats no problem for those who define 'soon' as more than 2,000 years, but off Bizarro World it doesnt fly.

Now you have stated that Paul refers to Dan's 'weeks'. OK Support that idea. But havnt I already asked you to support this from the NT and havent you already  said there is none ?

H

   Hitch,

   the two witnesses of Revelation 11 need to be explained away as well for the beast out of the sea kills them. People on earth have an AntiChristmas and send presents to each other delighted they are dead. People from every tribe, tongue and nation SEE their dead bodies. Impossible 100 years ago but possible now.

Revelation 11 3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
   4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
   5: And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
   6: These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
   7: And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
   8: And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
   9: And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
   10: And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
   11: And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
   12: And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
   13: And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    According to you this is history? I get it, what ever it says it really means something else. Problem is once you start spiritualizing things away you lose all the meaning. Where do you take it literally and where do you decide its symbolic?

    I'll bet if it backs your theory its literal and if it conflicts with your theory its symbolic. Is that how it works?

   Explain these things so we can understand them seeing you think we're wrong and your right, when did these events take place and why didn't history record them?

                                                             Paul2 8)

Hitch
You said......... For myself, I will rely on the interpretive ministries granted as 'gifts' to the church. That way I know that when Paul speaks of a 'fleshy' heart that Ezekiel was talking about what Christ would accomplish etc......end quote

I'm worried now......first you say that its too easy to "screw up the OT teaching" its faster than simply going to one of the Apostle teaching of the NT. BUT you would rather listen to a man behind the pulpit to teach you. I do believe in the gifts of preaching, teaching and the like but YOU still need to line everything they say up with the word.....ALL OF IT not just the NT.
    So if one of the apostle dont back it up its not something we need to listen to or heed?
What is wrong with allowing the scriptures to interpret scripture. It give good balance that way you don't have a man interferring with his ideas. Its easy to do, we all do it to some degree. But its very very dangerous to realy soley on the teaching of a man.

 One more quesiton for you......you've not bothered to answer any of the others but for those who are following along with the thread and to help a little with those in doubt.
Do you have musical instruments at your church?
Is there ANY scripture in the NT that says to have music instruments? SO do we NOT do them because it not in the NT. Do musical instruments in a church make us worng????
Some do believe this way so I don't intended to begin a new thread but this is an example that is all.
As someone asked me earlier do I still sacrifice animals....NO cause Jesus took care of that need.....yes he is NT talked about and for told in the OT. Do you not believe in the OT patraichs? Some of what is taught in the OT isn't found in the NT, animal sacrifices, musical instruments, we no longer need the high priest ect ect. But if it weren't for the OT and what is written there we wouldn't know the need we have for our Savior either.

Lets see what this really is saying: At the end of the 69th week the Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself (for us). And the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Actually its says after 62 weeks,,,  And which Roman prince promised to destroy the Temple ? Which Roman prince prophecied that the King would send his armys to the city to burn it because of their murder of his son? Whic Roman prince spoke of these things and declared the generation living would live to witness the events described?

H

You laugh at me but you actually believe this is past history? Well then explain it. Put it all together because it makes no sense at all the way you've explained it so far.

Sure  ,,all you need to do is quote a passage from the Apocalypse that mentions antichrist.


Its right next to the one Paul cites Dans seventieth week in. But I see you havent come across that one either.

In the mean time we'll just pretend that Hebrews doesnt say Christ ended the sacrfices.

But Im not in a hurry.

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11:4  These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

            Like minded Paul2, let Hitch begin his own thread.

  But I would like to address something, concering Apostalic support of the NT to the OT.  John wrote Rev?  How much more of an apostle or NT teaching does one need?  If they need one at all?    
      Using the NT to support what is taught in the OT seems backwards to me, but I understand and don't disagree that having NT teaching of the OT very helpful. But claiming that  none of the Apostles spoke about the end times nullifies the teachins of the OT is wrong (Daniel in particular). What do all the Apostles as a group do, why are they the chosen ones? Think about it, they walked with  Jesus, and seen his death, reseruction. They are the future Church, they taught as witnesses about Jesus life, ministry, his cruxifiction, building the church up and the bringing in the CHurch age of today. Jesus did give them OT teachings of the tribulation time in Matt. 24.  Later Paul about this in Thes.  (although not an apostle was a big writer of the NT) brings more understanding for us, we have those teachings and later on the vision of John that is the NT support for Daniel.
   Johns vision was written around A.D.95 or 96....several years after Christ's cruxifiction. The NT support or Apostlic support of Danial isn't available until long after Jesus death, and most of the apostles as well. You can't have apostle teaching when John hasn't had his vision yet. Each Apostle teaches, and writes from his view, Matt. give the Jews prespective, Luke gives a Greek/gentile view, Mark gives Roman views, each picked as apostle for that reason......John gives us Revlatioin as his contributions to the NT. Jerusalem has fallen a second time, the church is scatter because of the persecution as was prophecied, fullfilling yet another prophecy of the OT......now is the time that John himself persicuted, under arrest, has the vision to give to the scatterd churches. Those letters are carried thru out Asia as a warning  and to tell each chruch what to do to clean up there acts.
      This debate has been on going every since, in the 2ed and 3erd Century, with Justin Matyr, Shepherd of Hemas, Melito, Irenaeus, the Muratorian, Cannon, Tertullian, CLement of Alexandria,Origen.,
      The OT is a history book, we can use it as a check and balance to the prophecies. Jesus, to Alexander the Great, to NOW. It is by NO means over with, or with out use for today.  
Rev. is written for the Church. We are the Church. To pick and choose books is to take away from the word, we are warned against that.

Jesus is Lord, Savior and King,
Come Lord Jesus Come
Blessing to all who read, let all who have an ear hear what the Spirit says to the church......

Paul or Musicllover  which of the scriptures posted above do you 'take ' literaly?

Reba,
        ALL of them, no lamp stands don't speak but check out verses of the OT that give understanding to what the lamp stands are. Acctually the 11:3 has just told you the lamp stand are the witnesses....but for more proof,go back and read Zech. 4: 2-14.

Rev 1;1 thru 4......the beginning of the vision that John has. Are you asking cause you want to know if I believe that they are real visions or that this is a symbol for something else? How John had this vision, how do you sleep at night on your back or your side, I won't have any idea. Either way you sleep, and this is a real vision.....
blessings

Musicllover,

I am asking to understand, what it is you believe.

You have stated you 'take' them all literally. I will accept you at your word.  

I understand Revelation to be a 'real vision'. I also get a feeling that maybe you dont think i think it is/was real. (getting to 'know' folks via forums can be difficult)

Understanding the Revelation to be real and taking the scriptures literal as you do  what is your understanding of the  time frame given to John within the first 3 verses?

Reba,
       No I asked cause the first 3 verses aren't full of any symbols.
      A time frame for Rev 1:1-3. Written around A.D. 95, when was he released?
 These 3 verses, would imply to me that these verses were written as, the vision came, John under the influence of the Holy Spirit  (better than Jack Daniels :P). Did John set in a trance for hours, or slept had this dream or possibly a series of visions.One should do some hisorical studies, we know he was being punished, Romans had put him on Patmos, when?, The  churches are scattered thru out Asia, so how long does that take? It could be he wrote each letter to the churches at diff times while exiled. He does seem to put and ending to each letter.  I would have to do alot of reading. Maybe he would write one, and a year, month later God would give him another.

off to bed finally my eye are sleepy,
(can you tell I have insomina sometiems)
blessings

Musicllover,

 ME too i am pooped as well.  :P

 let me try this   and see if we connect

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Rev 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.



In verses 1  and 3  John is given by GOD a time frame.   I have bolded the words to let yoiu know what i am refuring too.

Reba,
         Yes I've seen that, but again "what" was at hand, John wrote the vision to the churches. How long it took him to write these 7 letters? The time is NOW to stop and correct the falsehood that the 7 churches have allowed after the scattering of Christian nearly 60 some year earlier. Christ crux. in 33 AD.....to the time of these letter 95 AD. There are  things that need to fall into place the vials.....and that the judgements don't give a time frame. I understand what you are leading up too. That the judgements have come already. But the fact remains there is no historical evedince in my understanding to support that. That would mean that we now live in the Millenium.
      I wonder maybe we need to talk about what Millenium is? Cause its my understanding that it will be a time of great peace and harmony. I'll do more studing about that. Cause in my own life this ISN"T any millenium. That would go into my testimony and I'll save that for some time later.  
  SO tribulations is a literally 7 years.....this is the gap that people don't like to think about. 1 week is worth 7 years in Daniel with out symbols or anything days are numbers for us. The fall of Jursalem twice, is a bench mark each one being told about before hand. 7 weeks or 49 years, the next time period is 62 weeks or 434 years. Has Isreal been restored yet? The restoration of Isreal, has been prophecied about but hasn't occured yet. They are tryng with this "road map" to peace and the like. When peaces come to the Jews, be ever more careful to watch, and know your scriptures. NO one knows the day or the hour, the gap as some are calling it is now for the time of the Gentiles, because the Jews rejected Jesus (Rom 11:11). This is the chruch age, and when it comes to a halt is when the rapture has occured. That one will be easy enough to see for those who have an ear so to speak. Daniel says that there has been determinded 70 weeks for the Jews. adding up using the bench marks, there has only been 69 weeks of prophecies fullfill. The Gentils are more or less at the mercy of the Jews and the time frame of when they get things right with God, and each other.
talk later,  

Millennium— a time in which Christ will reign and holiness will fill the earth for a thousand years.
Rev 20  
Jesus has come (second coming) wars with Satan at Armageddon,
Binds satan up for a 1000 yrs, cast into a bottomless pit.
Throws the anti christ and false prophet alive into the lake of fire, and those who have taken the mark of the beast.

       Let me say that if this is the Millennium reign then I fail to see any good or peace, I fail to see Jesus ruling, personally I have suffered such losses that I can say with out a doubt that this is not the Millennial reign that I understood. From the court systems to my own family dying of genetic defect that only affects us.  

        It says about this time is Isa.2:4.... beat the swords in to plowshares,
  their  spears into pruning hooks: Nations shall not life up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,....... They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain.

        The Millennium reign will be a time of peace and harmony between the nations,
 Even animals will live at peace with each other. Defiantly not, with my second son in Iraq, my foster son stuck in a home thru the decision of a misguided judge, and we battle to get him back, besides my cat and dog still fight, that cat won't let the poor dog in the house with out slapping him on the nose a few times....lol. Then you have the devil bound for a 1000 years so he can not deceive anyone during the millennium.  How many false religion, cults still exist? And as much as I think it would be sooo cool to walk up to peter, or Paul, or Moses even and say HI, they aren't running around here either..(.The resurrected of tribulation saints and old testaments Saints... Dan 12:1, Rev. 20:4).

         IF this were the time leading up to the Millennium then what would it be like, lets say a year before the beginning of the 1000 yr Millennium, then the anit christ would be running loose, forcing the mark of the beast (taken literally). The economy would be in totally control of the anti christ, there would be NO churches allowed, but only worship of him and the false prophet.
 
             We can say and agree that Jesus Christ is the one who will reign during the Millennium. That alone is enough for me to say we defiantly are not in the 1000 yr, not even near it yet.      

Joh 7:2  Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand  .

Sa 9:8  And the servant answered Saul again, and said, Behold, I have here   at hand the fourth part of a shekel of silver: that will I give to the man of God, to tell us our way.

Gen 27:41  And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him: and Esau said in his heart, The days of mourning for my father are at hand  ; then will I slay my brother Jacob.

(Joh 19:42)  There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Mat 26:46  Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand. a that doth betray me.


Gen 41:32  And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

1Co 4:19  But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.

Phi 2:19  But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.


Using  ‘strongs’ the word ‘shortly’ and the phrase ‘at hand’ have the same meaning as is common to  our thinking today.   I find it interesting how man struggles to force scripture to fit our thoughts.  We believe the scriptures to be GODS word yet  we say  HE really didn’t mean shortly when HE said  Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

As to the word antichrist. . . often we can tell who wrote what, be it a novel or text book, or song ,by the notes or words used. We find like things with in writers ideals.  The little books of John were penned via the same writer as the Revelation yet he does not use the word antichrist in the book of Revelation. Again man knows more than GOD and finds subtle ways to alter GODS word.

Over  the 4 or so years i have had this computer i have learned much. Phrases i had grownup “knowing” were scriptural were not even in the word! (ie; heavenly language).
This has placed me on a track that says  loudly  WHAT DOES THE WORD SAY?  Revelation 1;1 says shortly and Revelation 1;3 says at hand. The usage here does not read as a  metaphor, nor a figure of speech.

Jesus is my KING   Kings have a kingdom, HE reigns. And yet i have many troubles many broken hearts. HE is the healer of the broken HE is the builder of the Kingdom HE said Matt12:28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.  We agree HE cast out devils?

 Music says;

Daniel with out symbols or anything days are numbers for us. The fall of Jursalem twice, is a bench mark each one being told about before hand. 7 weeks or 49 years, the next time period is 62 weeks or 434 years. Has Isreal been restored yet? The restoration of Isreal, has been prophecied about but hasn't occured yet.



Dans is famous for  living through the test of the 'lion's den'. This took place in Babylon, during  the exile.  Between Dan's time and the first century Jerusalem  and the temple had been rebuilt, twice. He said  as though reality were an issue here...

Take care

Hitch

At hand,     Said,  engys....adj Greek
meaning   Near, close, nigh, near to, ready
The question should be asked what is God time table of AT HAND?
What does bibical History shown us,                       
Lets take take this phrase "at hand' literal, I  honestly do, cause when things begin to move, its only a 7 year run...... but I also know that God time table isn't mine, his beginning isn't ours either. AND for another I don't' see any of the judgements coming, anti christ ect ect ect......(I don't understand this part of the thread really, cause Hitch thought if funny  laughed about talking lamp stands.......but let play with the idea for a moment, we got to give God a watch with  our time table??????? I do find that curious,
 
Anyway
I did  a word search of "{at hand}" using my NIV...... so it's a little diff.....Reba shared several already, I found a few more.....      
Not only is this phrase found in Rev 1;1 At beginning of the vision to John, but at the end too. So NOW what is it over, time is gone, earth is gone, NEW heaven WHAT?

 Rev 22:6 Then he said to me, These words are faithful and true. And the Lord God of the Holy prophets sent his angel to show his servant the things which must {shortly} take place.........almost word for word from the Chap 1. This would be saying that as John was seeing the vision God was performing all the judgements as John was sat in the Heavenly theater. But that doesn't work either cause John knows it a vision.

IF Rev were wrote Chronologically for us today we'd been in the new Heaven now and I don't think anyone believes that. If not in the new heaven then in the millennium......and that hasn't been proven either. (See previous and end of this post)
Well that doesn't work so then
 I am using the NIV
I checked out God useage of "at hand" and found his time table much diff than our own.
Luke 21:8
         And he said, Take heed that you not be deceived, for many will come in my name saying I am he,  the time has {drawn near}. Therefore do not go after them. 9) But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified  for {{these things must come to pass first}}, but the end will not come immediately. 10) Then he said to them, Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom. 11)And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences, and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.  12) But{{ before all these things}}, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prison. You will be brought before kings and rulers for my names sake. ....................
(Skipping to 20) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolations is near.........(possibly a reference to the abomination of desolation)
 
What have you seen in todays world that might fulfill these passages. What great signs from Heaven has there been? What kind of persicutions are taken place of Christian, ( OH but then there can't be any persicutions taken place if we are in the Millenium right. So this must be talking about the scattering of the chruches and that time of persecuting Christians.....NO that don't fit time historical either. Because this would be the time of a new Heaven.. As some say HMMMMM

 (Skipping to 24) And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be lead away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles {until the times} of the Gentiles are fulfilled........
Still more  verses in Luke 21: 28) Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption {draws near}.
   ... 36) Watch therefore and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will {come to pass}, and to stand before the Son of Man.
 
This is probably the hardest one to explain away "until the time of the Gentiles are fulfilled" this is what I refer to as the church age. Or as some call it the "GAP" Scholars say this is the era of Israel's captivity 586 BC to the Babylon King it ends with her restoration  mentioned in Rev 20:1-6. So who knows the time, surely if this were the millennium you have a date of when Isreal was restored.. Give history, dates place that kind of thing.

For another reference to the phrase  "at hand" found in the scriptures.........
 In Det 32:35 Vengeance is mine and recompense:(pay back in kind) Their foot shall slip in due time: for the day of their calamity is {at hand}, and the things to come hasten upon them 36) for the Lord will judge His people and have compassion on his servants, when He see that their power is gone, and there is no one remaining, bond or free.......

This is Moses speaking to Isreal just before he goes up on Mt Nebo and God says he can't cross over the Jordan but will see the promise land.  This is written around 1405 BC.......the fall of Isreal. until 70 AD. Thats a LONG "at hand" So do we give God a clock and tell him he's late, or do I need a new clock. :P
time for bed.

Reba, I don't want to cut you off, but I am not going to let Hitch trash God word, or get into it with him, its getting dirty, I would rather be known by good fruits,,,,,in all that you do keep the peace.... SO I'll not post again, pm me if you like. What I think I will be doing for a while is checking up on this millimium stuff. By knowing where you come from will help me understand some of this. Cuause I honestly can't understand ANYone thinging this is the 1000 yr reign. I grew up in an abusive home, sexual and physical........this isn't the Millinium reign. But I am curious how you justify all the neg in the world today. How does it fit in with scripture and the like. Like I said just private messanger me if you want to continue in a friendly polite manner.

blessings,

it seems to me that the main stumbling block to any right understanding of the rapture is a WRONG understanding of the BRIDE of CHRIST.

Because it is TAKEN FOR GRANTED that ALL who are HIS will be in the BRIDE then it is ASSUMED that the what is called the pre trib-rapture is WRONG.
For if you hold to the first then the SECOND .....CANNOT be true!
For the scriptures say so(and they do!)-(it seems).

There is a church in the book of revaltion that "in its own eyes has need of NOTHING"
But in Gods is 'WRETCHED POOR AND BLIND"!

Now a SOBER question.
Is or HOW can THAT church be FIT to be PART of the BRIDE!?
If she is BLIND ("no VISION") POOR "IN God"
and WRETCHED.
"MY people perish for they lack VISION(blind) for they have rejeCted KNOWLEDGE"
If you look at the LAST KING of ISREAL he was BLIND.
If you look at the LAST JUDGE of ISREAL he was BLIND as well.
It would apear that the LAST CHURCH will be blind as well!


How can this be?

"as in the days of LOT so shal it be in the LAST days"
LOT was BLIND to the hour in which he lived and "what God was about to do"
Why?
Because he WALKED by SIGHT and not by FAITH.
Whereas ABRAHAM ....WALKED by faith.
At the beginning they were as RICH IN GOD as the other in goods.
and it was because the land could not contain them BOTH that they split.
But at the END  ABRAHAM was as RICH in Goods as He was in the beginning.
But LOT lost ALL save the saving of his own soul.
is it not written of some who are COUNTED RIGHTOUS but who will "suffer loss as through fire"?
Lot was COUNTED rightous for hsi "rightous soul was vexed....."
"As in the days of NOAH so shall it be in the LAST DAYS"
THERE too if we COUNTED his days we would find another 'ENOCH"
Who "WALKED with God and was not" later on in scripture it says he was "TRANSLATED"(RAPTURED in other words)
So we have again TWO men who thoughy BOTH counted rightous yet ONE whos WALK was PERFECT.


The BRIDE of CHRIST will be "a HELP MEET FOR HIM"(PERFECT)

Today we have the idea that to be BORNagain gives us an AUTOMATIC right to be in the BRIDE of Christ.
To be BORNagain makes us QUALIFIED to ENTER THE RACE and to "win the prize"@
The children of ISREAL were SAVED from BONDAGE to Egypt and her pharoah.
They are but types for the WORLD and the DEVIL.
BUT OUR SALVATION consists in MORE thaN BEING 'SAVED'   FROM bondage.
But also to ENTER INTO the promised land.
and to be "more than conquerers"
WHAT is MORE than a CONQUERER?
But he who REMOVES the inhabitants and LAWS of the taken land and sets up OTHER LAWS AND GOVERNERSHIP.
and SEETLLES THERE!
(SEE WILLIAM THE CONQUERER -1066)
That which the devil took by deciet is to be TAKEN in RIGHTOUSNESS.
AND THE GATES of hell shall not prevail against her.

They were "aprehended for" to enter that which was PROMISED.
but they had to @APREHEND IT"@!
Which they FAILED to do because "of unbelief'!
Yet if you study the passage you will finds that it was NOT that they believed NOTHING but that they belived the WRONG MESSAGE!
which was?
You will find that ALL 12 SAW the SAME things.
But THE 10 and the 2 saw it in DIFFERENT LIGHTS!
tHE 10 saw them with the NATURAL man.
and FORGOT the last 40 DAYS.
and saw GIANTS.ONLY
tHE 2 SAW THEM in thje LIGHT\ of what GOD HAD done.
WHO IT WAS WHO WAS WITH THEM and WHAT had been PROMISED for the future.
and so saw them in their TRUE PERSPECTIVE as "GRASSHOPPERS"!
WHICH message are you believeing?

The one that says "we have need of nothing'?

or the one thats ays we NEED ALL that God has PROMISED.

The story of the 5 wise and 5 foollish virgins.
Is NOT  a story for the world but for the CHURCH!

For a CAREFULL study of the story will reveal that in ALL matters SAVE ONE.
THEY were the SAME.
Some JUMP to the conclusion it was they were nto saved.
Not so.
For ALL thier LAMPS were LIT.
 THE ONLY DIFFERENCE  was in thier EXPECTATIONS!
and their LACK of PREPAREDENESS.
tHE FOOLISHNESS was to BELEIEVE that having the LAMPS lit AND FULL OF OIL was ENOUGH and the VESSELS need not be FILLED.
tHE 5 wise NOT ONLY HAD thier LAMPS lit but ALSO had thier VESSELS FILLED AS WELL!
MANY say that being BORNagain is ENOUGH.
That we 'have' the HOLY SPIRIT.
But consider this?
A BABY who is BORN has LIFE ;yes?
But does not ALSO need to BE FILLED and that continually with the BREATH OF LIFE that it may CONTINUALLY LIVE?
fOR if we consider CHRIST "in whom was LIFE" itself.
yet was He not ALSO to be FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT before He could or did any WORK of God?
Is it not written "as the FATHER SENT ME SO SEND I YOU"?
If then He NEEDED to be FILLED how much the MORE do we.
When we are BORNagain we 'have' the HOLY SPIRIT.
When we are FILLED HE 'has' US!

AND note when they were barred from entering it was to the MARRIAGE and was "I do not know you"
NOT at the JUDGEMENT "I NEVER knew you"

BE YE ALSO READY then for you know not.......... and "be ye FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT"

     The church of Laodicea is vomited out of the body of Christ, it could not be digested into the body becasue of false doctrine. Notice Jesus outside knocking on the door of this Church. Its not part of the body of Christ, it sickens his stomach and is vomited out into the tribulation at the Rapture and becomes the Harlot of Rev.17

      I thought it was time to "resurrect" this thread again. For those of you who are new or visiting there are many worth while debates and evidence for Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. If your interested go back to the first page and read through the posts (especially Paul2's  ;) ).

     People are always refering to Matthew and the Rapture, but Matthew is focused on the Jews and the Second Coming of Christ ,not the Rapture.

     Well what about good old Dr. Luke the Gentile? Luke was written by a Gentile, Luke, to Gentiles, Greeks, with messages for Gentiles (The Church).

Luke 21:29: And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree (nation of Israel), and all the trees; (the nations)
   30: When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
   31: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
   32: Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
   33: Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
   34: And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
   35: For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
   36: Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

     Verse 35 above makes it clear that the so called "Snare" would come on ALL (every person on planet earth) that dwells on the face of the Whole Earth. There is nobody spared, if your on planet earth at this time your snared. But wait! Theres an escape for those accounted worthy from the wrath that shall come to pass.

      Now lets analize the information we have been given:

      We are told clearly that at the time of wrath, everybody dwelling on the face of the whole earth would be snared.

      We are then told clearly, that there is an escape for those accounted worthy.

      The "escape" must be from the face of the whole earth because those who dwell on the face of the whole earth are snared.

      Who are those accounted worthy? Those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, The Church.

      The "escape" is the Rapture of the Church but you must remember that this was spoken by Jesus before his death and the Church even began. The Rapture mystery is hidden here but will be revealed by the Aposle Paul for us more clearly.

                                         The Pre-Trib. View by Paul2 8)