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I believe one has to born again to enter into the kingdom of God. I know the conversation between the Lord Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3 is world famous.

But why, I mean, what is the "real reason", to be born again?

IMO the real reason is so one is able to understand what the Spirit is saying to them.  Without being born again, one only understands things of the world-------unable to comprehend "truth", hence, no entrance into the kingdom.


 

Doesn't that just beg the question "why" again?

Just about any answer to any question can again be followed with a "why".  OK, don't ask me why again! ;)

Tell me about it. One of my year 8 students thinks "why?" is the cleverest response in the world to any instruction or information.

But I don't see why your reply takes us anywhere.  It doesn't seem any more self evident that understanding is dependent on rebirth than the original question of entry into the kingdom being dependent on it.

An answer like:
"Since we have to die to sin, and all that is not of God in us, then we need to be reborn into what is of God, ie Christ"  isn't a great answer, but at least it has some kind of logic to it.

"what is the "real reason", to be born again?"


 Romans 6:3.  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4.  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5.  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6.  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 7.  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
 8.  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
 9.  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
 10.  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
 11.  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 12.  Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
 13.  Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Hmmm.... I thought there were few born-agains in this board!

Ollie, would you please explain the "reason" to be born again in the verses you quoted above (Rom. 6:3-13)?

Ebia, thanx.

I would appreciate some "explanation" rather than just quoting few Bible verses.

Thanks.

Hello PhilMun....God bless you.

Since Adam and Eve, all of mankind has been 'born' with a sin nature. Our spirit has a nature of sin, because of our original parents....and, since God cannot dwell where there is sin, He had to give us a new spirit, for Him to live in. When He does this, this is being born again.

"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you....." Ezekiel 36.26...."I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgements and do them." Ezekiel 36.27.
So, as you see, He first gives us a new spirit, and then He comes to live in that spirit. He is able to give us a new spirit because of the shed blood of Jesus the Christ.

If you ever wondered what the "new wine into a new wineskin" was about, this is it....we do not put new wine into an old wineskin, but into a new wineskin...see Matt. 9.17.

There is much more, but I hope this help a bit.
The Lord bless you....Roy.

But Adam and Eve were "not born" but "created" as fully mature humans, right? And, created not with sinful nature but in God's image!

It right that WE are born in sin. So the question still needs clear answer......

You must be born again because Jesus Christ came and died for our sins so we could be made righteous by his blood.

When Adam sinned his spirit "died" even though his life span was 930 years before he died physically. God had said (Gen.2:17) "...in the day that thou eatest thereof, THOU SHALT SURELY DIE".  This was spiritual death, and since then, all men are born spiritually dead -- "DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SINS" (Eph. 2:1,5).

Through the new birth or "regeneration", our spirits (which only can commune with God and know the things of the Spirit -- 1 Cor. 2:9-16) are made alive -- "quickened" -- by the Holy Spirit through the new birth, while our minds are "renewed" so that they can understand spiritual things:

"And you hath He QUICKENED, who were dead in trespasses and sins... Even when we were dead in sins, HATH QUICKENED US TOGETHER WITH CHRIST (by grace ye are saved)... Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION AND THE RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST..." (Eph.2:1,5; Tit. 3:5).

It is only the one who is "born again", "born from above" "born of God" who can see God and know God since he or she becomes a child of God (Jn. 1:12,13). Those who are "sons of God" have eternal life, and therefore one needs the new birth to have God dwelling within and posses the gift of eternal life.

Thank you SOWER. I appreciate it.

What is the difference between DEATH OF THE SPIRIT and SPIRITUAL DEATH? Could you please explain with few Scriptural references?

"Death" means separation. Physical death is when the soul and spirit are separated from the body, so that when the body goes into the grave, the soul and spirit depart another place.

There is n such term as "death of the spirit" since "spiritual death" means the same thing and is used to denote the separation of an individual from God. When Scripture says we were "DEAD in our trespasses and sins" it is speaking of sinners (1) separated from God, lost, and destined for Hell without Christ (2) devoid of the Holy Spirit (3) unable to communicate with God or do His will (4) unable to comprehend spiritual things.  There are too many Scriptures to cover all this, but the ones I have provided cover "spiritual death".  When Scripture speaks of "the second death" that term denotes eternal "spiritual death" since the sould is spearated from God eternally (Rev 20).

Question:

Answer:
To leave the OLD life behind, and begin again with a NEW life with Jesus Christ going with us every day, everywhere we go, ruling our thoughts and our actions.  Allowing Jesus to direct who we are and what we do.

Yep - It is that simple.   :)

This is false, if anyone wants to know the truth of this matter, read what the Lord has to say about this, not someohne who has an opinion.

Especially one who denies the diety of Jesus.

Jesus said;


Jhn 3
6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Even the apostles speaks concerning the new birth;

1 Pet 1
22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Jhn 1
10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And it is not something which will happen in the future, at all, according to Jesus.

Jhn 5
24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/b][/color]
25  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

If one possess the Holy Spirit presently, in this life, he is a Son of the Living God, and belongs to Jesus, presently.

Do not be decieved, if you do not posses His Spirit you do not belong to Him. (Rom 8:9-11)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, (in this present life)they are the sons of God, according to Rom 8:14.

Blessings,

Petro

Just as Enoch was translate out of this world.

Those who are born again and possess the Holy Spirit which raised Jesus from the dead (Rom 8:9-11) are presently translated  into the kingdom of his dear Son: and all this by FAITH in the operation of God, according to the Spirit, which dwells in us.

This is why, Jesus also said;

Jhn 10
25  I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26  But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28  And I give unto them eternal life; and
they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30  I and my Father are one.


Only His sheep know and understand these things, those that are not His sheep, cannot know them, much less possess His Holy Spirit. (Rom 8:9-11), all because they dom not believe Him.

Petro

Now for the final question: Have you been born again? The only answer you can give in the light of Jesus' statements is "no," for you are yet flesh, not spirit.


Or a definate yes if one uses the light of the Word instead of the light of wopik  ;)

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13  Which were born  not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Are you born again? This is one of life's most important questions. Jesus Christ said, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

These are the six great marks of a born again Christian.

No Habitual Sinning

First of all, John wrote: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin" (I John 3:9). "Whosoever is born of God sinneth not" (5:18).

A person who has been born again, or regenerated, does not habitually commit sin. He no longer sins with his heart and will and whole inclination. There was probably a time when he did not think about whether his actions were sinful or not, and he did not always feel grieved after doing evil. There was no quarrel between him and sin; they were friends. But the true Christian hates sin, flees from it, fights against it, considers it his greatest plague, resents the burden of its presence, mourns when he falls under its influence, and longs to be completely delivered from it. Sin no longer pleases him, nor is it even a matter of indifference to him; it has become a horrible thing which he hates. However, he cannot eliminate its presence within him.

If he said that he had no sin, he would be lying (I John 1:8). But he can say that he hates sin and that the great desire of his soul is not to commit sin at all. He cannot prevent bad thoughts from entering his mind, or shortcomings, omissions, and defects from appealing in both his words and his actions. He knows that "in many things we offend all" (James 3:2). But he can truly say, in the sight of God, that these things cause him grief and sorrow and that his whole nature does not consent to them. What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

Believing in Christ

Second, John wrote: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (I John 5:1).

A man who is born again, or regenerated, believes that Jesus Christ is the only Saviour who can pardon his soul, that He is the divine person appointed by God the Father for this very purpose, and beside Him there is no Saviour at all. In himself he sees nothing but unworthiness. But he has full confidence in Christ, and trusting in Him, he believes that his sins are all forgiven. He believes that, because he has accepted Christ's finished work and death on the cross, he is considered righteous in God's sight, and he may look forward to death and judgment without alarm.

He may have fears and doubts. He may sometimes tell you that he feels as if he had no faith at all. But ask him if he is willing to trust in anything instead of Christ, and see what he will say. Ask him if he will rest his hope of eternal life on his own goodness, his own works, his prayers, his minister, or his church, and listen to his reply.What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

Practicing Righteousness

Third, John wrote: "Every one that doeth righteousness is born of Him" (I John 2:29).

The man who is born again, or regenerated, is a holy man. He endeavors to live according to God's will, to do the things that please God and to avoid the things that God hates. He wishes to continually look to Christ as his example as well as his Saviour and to prove himself to be Christ's friend by doing whatever He commands. He knows he is not perfect. He is painfully aware of his indwelling corruption. He finds an evil principle within himself that is constantly warring against grace and trying to draw him away from God. But he does not consent to it, though he cannot prevent its presence.

Though he may sometimes feel so low that he questions whether or not he is a Christian at all, he will be able to say with John Newton, "I am not what I ought to be, I am not what I want to be, I am not what I hope to be in another world; but still I am not what I once used to be, and by the grace of God I am what I am." What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

Loving Other Christians

Fourth, John wrote: "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren" (I John 3:14).

A man who is born again has a special love for all true disciples of Christ. Like his Father in heaven, he loves all men with a great general love, but he has a special love for those who share his faith in Christ. Like his Lord and Saviour, he loves the worst of sinners and could weep over them; but he has a peculiar love for those who are believers. He is never so much at home as when he is in their company.

He feels they are all members of the same family. They are his fellow soldiers, fighting against the same enemy. They are his fellow travelers, journeying along the same road. He understands them, and they understand him. They may be very different from himself in many ways—in rank, in station and in wealth. But that does not matter. They are his Father's sons and daughters and he cannot help loving them. What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

Overcoming the World

Fifth, John wrote: "Whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world" (I John 5:4).

A man who is born again does not use the world's opinion as his standard of right and wrong. He does not mind going against the world's ways, ideas and customs. What men think or say no longer concerns him. He overcomes the love of the world. He finds no pleasure in things which seem to bring happiness to most people. To him they seem foolish and unworthy of an immortal being.

He loves God's praise more than man's praise. He fears offending God more than offending man. It is unimportant to him whether he is blamed or praised; his first aim is to please God. What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

Keeping Oneself Pure

Sixth, John wrote: "He that is begotten of God keepeth himself' (I John 5:18).

A man who is born again is careful of his own soul. He tries not only to avoid sin but also to avoid everything which may lead to it. He is careful about the company he keeps. He knows that evil communications corrupt the heart and that evil is more catching than good, just as disease is more infectious than health. He is careful about the use of his time; his chief desire is to spend it profitable.

He desires to live like a soldier in an enemy country—to wear his armor continually and to be prepared for temptation. He is diligent to be watchful, humble, prayerful man. What would the apostle say about you? Are you born again?

[commentary by J. C. Ryle]

You might also, consider these verses, Christians ought not to handle gods word deceitfully.

1 Cor 2
2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The Adventist, Jehovah Witness doctrines you embrace with biblicxal teachings, expose your spiritual need.

You need to put away those thoughts and, believe the written word of God only, you need to ask Gods forgiveness and seek His mercy and grace, that you too, might receive His Spirit and understand these things, you do not understand.

So long as you deny the truth, you will not see, nor undertsand Gods Word, at all.

Don't be decived, it is clear to many you do not have a grasp of scriptural teaching.

Still praying for you....




Petro

What mortal, human, FLESHLY understanding of a spiritual truth!  If you keep following that line of interpretation wopik, you will never make it into God`s kingdom, for rejecting being born again now, leaves you  unregenerated. Unless you have found another means of obtaining this "walking in newness of life?" The Bible states no other means than being born again.

Yours is a  doctrine that can only conclude that the outward hearing of the Word of God by the unregenerated man will SOMEHOW cause a  cessation of the rebellious nature of the human heart and SOMEHOW create a change in his conduct toward God.  So tell me wopik, by what means has your heart been cleansed, by whose power have you changed, by who`s power do you walk as a christian, if your not born again?

Jesus was telling Nicodemus that anyone who wants to see God must be born twice! That does not mean that you must enter a second time into your mother's womb and be born again (physically). Being born again means that the Spirit of God must remake you. A spiritual REbirth, the here and now, not at the time of death, not at the time of entrance into His Kingdom (for He said you can NOT ENTER unless your born again.)

You are Israel's teacher, and do you not understand these things?

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I wanted to tell you that a poster in this thread was banned, and his messages were deleted. He was determined to preach and spread the false doctrine of his cult. He was only one of several who came here to convert us. I give thanks for the many who patiently tried to help him over the last months, but our help fell on deaf ears. Many of his messages were getting bolder by the day, and he started direct quotes of cult material. We could not permit the lost or babes in Christ to be exposed to his lies, so his posts were deleted.

Brothers and Sisters, I love you for trying so hard and with such patience to help him.

Love In Christ,
Tom

What about the false teachings of RCism that is posted on Christian Unite?
RCism is as bad as JW's, Mormonism and Armstrongism.

DITTO ;D

Brothers, I would strongly disagree and say there is no comparison. However, I don't plan to debate it, so we can agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 Houston we have a problem. If you strongley disagree that the Cult of rome is better than  JW's, Mormonism and Armstrongism, Hail Mary Tom :'(

It's been interesting to search other forums and see the sections they have on how to deal with 'Protestants'. :-X


With time and patience, Michael has single-handedly changed the opinion of so many.  :'(

But there seems to be a big gap between what RCC'ers believe and what's in the 'official' teachings. :-\

Would someone let me know when and if this forum converts back to “Christiansunite” from the false cult teachings of Rome.  In the mean time I’ll be spending my time at sites that keep the false doctrines of the RCC in proper check. Brother Tom, you should be ashamed of yourself if after all that was posted you think the RCC cult is not that bad. I hope you have better discernment in your psychical food than you do with your spiritual food.

Pilgrim

Pilgrim, if you understood church history you would not view the RCC as a cult, but just another group of Christians with whom you disagree on certain points.  The Roman church began with the conversion of Emperor Constantine's conversion making Christianity the official religion of the empire.  It was several hundred years later when groups split off during the Reformation and these groups protested the actions of the church, thus the name "Protestant" (you knew that but I had to say it).  There are now hundreds of different churches with different rules for salvation(accept Jesus, accept and be baptised, accept, baptised, speak in tongues, accept, total immersion baptism.....get the picture?) and every one thinks the others are false and are cults.

So, which cult do you belong to, Pilgrim?

Para_Noir said That's what I think.
Welcome to C-Unite Para_Noir

Oklahoma Howdy to Saint Pilgrim,

Brother, you really need to think about why there is currently so much denominational doctrine on Christians Unite, especially Catholic doctrine. I can only assume that you remember why you signed so many posts as "Saint Pilgrim".

Months ago, you and several others started hunting Catholics, bashing Catholics, and making fun of Catholics openly on Christians Unite. They took the bashing pretty well for a period of time, and they finally started defending themselves.

In fact, the hate, spite, poking fun, and bashing of Catholics drew many more Catholics to Christians Unite to defend themselves.

Had the Gospel of the Grace of God been shared in Christian love, I doubt there would be much denominational material on Christians Unite, including Catholic material. So, if you want to know why there is so much denominational material on the forum now, look at yourself and others who tried to have a party kicking and bashing Catholics.

Brother, I did not take part in the Catholic bashing. In fact, I tried to stop it and asked for sharing the Gospel in Christian love all the way back to 12-19-2003. I did this publicly and privately. I will definitely accept blame for not trying harder.

I said that Catholics could not be compared to JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites, and that is a completely true statement. JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites all completely deny the deity of one or more of The Holy Trinity.

Brother, I share almost the identical doctrine as you do, but I disagree with how you and others singled out Catholics for public whipping, humiliation, and bashing. I thought the pot would boil over before now, but I wasn't applying the heat. Am I to feel shame because I didn't join your humiliation mob? I don't feel shame at all. I still ask for the Gospel to be shared in Christian love. However, I am only one person and have only one opinion.

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

I said that Catholics could not be compared to JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites, and that is a completely true statement. JWs, Mormons, and Armstrongites all completely deny the deity of one or more of The Holy Trinity.

When there was an influx of nudity on this forum, they also seemed to believe in the Trinity.  :)

I can only speak for myself here. My "born again" experience was drastic so I can pinpoint the day I saw the world with new eyes. If you don't know whether or not you're born again, all you have to do is ask Christ into your life. Tell Him you want to know HIM personally with all your heart, soul, and mind. Then wait until you recognize His spirit which is peace, love, faith, joy, and hope. In the meantime, read ALL of His words until you understand them. That will increase your faith exponentially. Jesus said; "He who seeks will find." That is a fact. Good luck and God bless.

You are right, BUTHCA. You are also being honest which is the heart of a true seeker and extremely difficult to do. The Holy Spirit can only enter a person when they say, "I have no more answers. Please help me. I give up." That is complete and total submission to a power higher than yourself.  But if we still have resistance like, "I'm good, I've lived a good life," then we have not admitted why we need Christ's forgiveness. He will only come to us when we KNOW inside of us that we are sinners and have no power on our own to rid ourselves of it. Then we are truly seeking God because we know from the bottom of our hearts our own sin. "Jesus said, "No one is good but God alone." That perfect man didn't even include Himself! How then can any of us call ourselves good? He knew what is inside the human heart; greed, lust, pride, envy, gluttony, wrath, and sloth. We all indulge in these everyday. He also knew that the only one to give Him power over that was his Father in heaven. All God wants from us is the truth. True repentance is usually accompianied by tears, remorse, and a desire for help. Then it's from our hearts than from "trying to show we are wonderful" which is the sin of pride. We usually do have to come to the end of ourselves, acknowledging that all we have inside of us is sin and that God's Holy Spirit is the only thing that can save us. That is true humility. That's why Jesus said to come to Him like little children who don't pretend to be have the answers like we adults do. That is our pride that keeps us from God. Just be honest with God about all of your sin. We are riddled with it! I hope this helps.

I just want to add, BUTHCA, that coming to the cross can be a painful thing. Most of us want to escape our pain by chasing after worldly things. But that doesn't work because worldly things do not last. We will all eventually have to face our pain, either on this earth or when we die. We cannot run away from it. That's why only the truth can set us free! If we come to the corss with the truth about ourselves, then out of that pain comes something glorious! God knows that we cannot save ourselves. So He sent His Son to give His life up so that we can be set free from sin! He took our sins with Him on the cross. But He cannot take away sins that have not been confessed. That's why all God wants from us is the truth about our sins. All of them. Only then can we receive His unending grace, love, anfd forgiveness that NO ONE can take out of our hearts! The truth really does set us free!

Here is a post that I posted a while back - it deals with both the water and the phrase "born again" - I trust this will help.

May God bless.

John 3:3-7 – An Explanation

I seen a lot of confusion lately over the below text:

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4  Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5  Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

I would like to, if I can, clear up some misunderstandings on this verse.  

There are two main doctrines that are here in this verse are as follows:
1. “Born again” vs. 3– linked to the popular phrase “born again”
2. “Water and of the Spirit” – most commonly linked to water baptism

I would like to tackle the second one first vs. 5 – water.  This is the easiest. Note the context of verse 5 refers back to vs. 4.  The Lord in verse 3 told Nicodemus that he had to be born again.  Immediately Nicodemus thought he had to come out of the mother’s womb again.  Jesus answers and two things take place:  “Except a man be born of water (physical birth for you are in a sack of water inside the womb) and the Spirit you cannot enter in.  Jesus said, “You must have a physical birth (womb of water) and a spiritual birth.  There is no mention of water baptism here.  The reference “of water” is associated with the physical birth that all men must have first.  Look at verse 6 where Jesus talks of a fleshly birth (from the womb).  There are two births being discussed: physical (“flesh is flesh”) and the spiritual birth.
The part regarding “born again” is a little tougher to follow.  I will tell you what I believe and you study it through and see if these things be so (Acts. 17:11).

Jesus was dealing with one of the leaders of Israel and not Jesus used the word “ye” must be born again in vs.7 referencing the Jewish nation as a whole for Nicodemus was representing the leadership of the Jews at that time.  Jesus didn’t say “you” must be born again but “ye” (plural).  Now, let me paraphrase and then I will move on.  “Marvel not…..unto thee (Nicodemus), Ye (Israel) must be born again.

   Now lets look at this “born again”.  As we all know Israel blew it with God in the OT.  God now calls them “Loammi” for they are not God’s people.  Though Israel walked away from God we know that God will bring back his people.  God gave them the chance in the gospels and they killed Jesus.  Jesus on the cross asks the Father to forgive them (Israel) for they knew not what they did so the Father gives them another chance in the book of Acts.  As we know they stoned Stephen so…..Israel rejected God the Father in the OT., God the Son in the gospels and then, finally God the Holy Ghost in Acts.  Despite all that rejection God still made and covenant with Israel and will honor it and make unbelieving Israel believing Israel.  How and when will God do this?
First, how?  By doing a supernatural work in their hearts.  When? at the end of tribulation and right before they enter into the kingdom.  God will revive the valley of dry bones in Ezek. 37:4-14 by His Spirit.  Now compare this passage with Isa. 66:8 (note “born at once”) and Eze. 36:26,27.

Now go to Heb. 8:8 and you will get a complete picture.  Right before the 1,000 yr. Reign the Lord will raise up unbelieving Israel, put a new heart and Spirit in them and then take them into the land that was promised to them.  Then they will become the nation of priests on earth resenting God to the nations of the earth.
 
So, yes, Nicodemus, you have to born physically first and then “Ye” (Israel) will experience a spiritual birth.  Now, note, their being “born again” will be their same form of bodies just a rebuilding of a human body that will house God’s Spirit.  That is why the term “born again” fits this.   This operation of God will be just a new birth from their old bodies redone.

How does this relate to us for you hear the term “born again” all the time?   Now, let’s have some fun and get a blessing.  When God saved your sorry soul (mine too) He didn’t just take your old body and put a new Spirit in it.  It looks as though that is all He did but there is more.  We need to see ourselves as God truly sees us.  What happened to you is that you were made a new “creature” – II Cor. 5:17.  Why did Paul use the term “new creature”?  Because when you were saved you were spiritually baptized into the body of Christ – this was a new operation not done before this age of grace.  You became bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and raised you up and seated you in heavenly palaces at the right hand of God (Eph. 1,2).  Therefore you are a new “creature” in Christ and nobody before this age has this privilege.  Israel gets some land and you get to be a part of Christ’s body in the heavenly palaces for all eternity?  Yeeehaaaw – Gloreeeeee to God!

Can’t you see you are not just “born again” (sounds good and all and I don’t panic when people use it.)  You have been made a new creature in Christ Jesus.  Won’t you admit that somebody being literally put in the literal body of Christ is a “new creature.”  Yes, my dear saints, you have something better than just getting into the land.  You have Christ in you, the hope of glory.  You (the body of Christ) are part of a plan by God that was from “BEFORE” the foundation of the world.  In other words you were planned in eternity.  Israel and the Gentiles was just “from” the foundation of the world – Matt. 25:24.  Your standing in Christ was from “before” the foundation of the world.   The body of Christ is not limited to mansions - John 14 – our abode is above the third heavens in eternity with Christ (Eph. 2:4).  Look at you, it is Christ “in” you.  The disciples just had the Spirit dwelling amongst them (John 14:17 - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.).

You may be down here in your old, tired, sinful flesh but the real you (saved and redeemed, glorified, etc.) is in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.  Your standing is this – Perfect in the Son seated at the right hand of God, perfect with Christ’s righteousness.  This is how God sees the real you.  Now your state down here may be in a mess but up there where the real you is it is perfect.  This is what God did to you through Christ at Calvary.

Now, what is your duty because of so great privileges?  Turn to Eph. 4:1. God just got finished telling you what great things He hath done for you in the first three chapters of Ephesus and in 4:1 He tells you what to do about it.  Paul says, “Eph 4:1  I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,”.  You are perfect in heaven blessed with all spiritual blessings then walk down here like you believe it.  In other words “walk, your position.”  In the following 3 chapters Paul tells you how you should act based upon your position in Christ.

So, I trust that someone will get a blessing.  This is not original thinking from me.  I learned this after being under the same preacher for over 20 years who seeks to know all he can about God, Christ and the Christian life.   If you do not agree with this then, that’s ok for this a forum.  

Again - May God bless!

So if water baptism is merely being born from our mother's womb, why then did John the baptist go around baptizing people with water? According to the above interpretation, we wouldn't need that.

The issue in John 3 was not water baptism.  Yes, John baptized according to John 1:31.  These are two separate issues.  The real issue in John 3 is not water but the importance of Israel being born again which I discussed in my post on John 3.  People assumed the water of the womb in John 3 to be water baptism and thus all the confusion.

Two different incidents dealing witt two different issues.

I trust this clears your question up a bit .

May God bless  8)

I realize the biggest issue is being born again of the spirit. But you didn't answer my question. If water baptism means being born of the flesh, then why did John The Baptist go around baptizing people with water?

Butcha,
when you say, "I know i fall short, we all do", are you saying; "yeah, I mess up, but who cares?" Or do you have remorse that you slip up and want to change? The former will keep you from God. The latter will lead you to Christ to take away your sins.

You CANNOT live a better life without God, Butcha. Otherwise we wouldn't need forgiveness! God sent his Son BECAUSE we cannot obey the law! Romans, 7:8, "For i would have not known what coveting was if the law had not said, 'Do not covet'. But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment produced in me every kind of covetous desire." What he is saying is that trying on our own to "live a good life" actually makes us do the opposite. It's like saying; "don't think of an elephant." It is for this reason that Jesus FULFILLED the law for us! Since we cannot obey it on our own, all we have to do is come to Him, confess our sins, and his love, mercy, and forgiveness REPLACES our desire to sin. We can no more "decide" to love our neighbor than we can "decide to forgive. All we have to do is admit that we do NOT love our neighbor ask for forgiveness, and Christ's love, mercy, and forgiveness is what we give to our neighbor! That is why only the truth sets us free! Since Jesus fulfilled the law for us, we are no longer under the law but under grace. Therefore, all we have to do is admit the truth, and come to HIM. When we receive his forgiveness, it is that forgiveness that we give to others. trying to do it without Christ's forgiveness will only breed more pride because we are giving ourselves the credit for our goodness than to God. We are then perpetuating sin.

Joh 3:3-18 is not talking about water baptism although there are some parallels...flesh and water, Spirit and Spirit

You are born of your mother through the flesh.  

You are born again (2nd birth) through the Spirit when you believe in Christ.

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?" Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?... And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (Joh 3:3-18)

...when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, while the ship was being built. In it, few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, angels and authorities and powers being made subject to him. (1Pe 3:20-22)

"This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you" - the Baptism that saves is "the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" not "the putting away of the filth of the flesh".

Then you are not saved, BUTCHA because you do not believe Jesus's words when He said we have to be born again of water and the spirit. If you don't believe Jesus, then he is not your Lord and saviour. You believe other people's words instead. I don't know how you could have interpreted my post to mean you don't have to be born again. You cannot turn yourself over to Christ if He does not rule you because we, on our own, without the Holy Spirit, have no power to do that. You have already shown that you are not doing that by your lack of belief in his words that we have to be born again. You believe your words instead of His.

If you're not sure whether you're born again, BUTCHA, (which it doesn't seem that you are sure), then simply ask God to show you who He is and He will. In the mean time, read Jesus's words until you believe every one of them.

Butcha,

I believed when I was in my early 20's and there was a night and day difference.

My wife can't remember ever not believing.  She knows the Good News truth of Christ and believes it and the fruit of the Spirit is as evident in her as me.

So Butcha, ask God to move His Spirit within you to testify to your spirit.

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn't receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God; and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if indeed we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified with him. (Rom 8:14-17)

the simplicity that is in Christ - "what must I do to be saved?"..."Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" (Act 16)

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom 8:1-4)

I always believed there was a God but I thought I needed to get good enough to please him.  I did not know grace because I had not faith.  All my efforts were as a polluted garment before God.  I was weak in the flesh.

For we have all become as one who is unclean, and all our righteousness is as a polluted garment: and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (Isa 64:6)

For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom 10:10-13)

May God bless you!

________________________________________________

I have to say...and not out of meanness, I do not belong to the largest cult in the world.

This is an interesting question and i realize it's at the core of your dilemma. I personally had a drastic conversion, not as drastic as Paul's or at penteost, but almost. It WAS like night and day because I was born again with new eyes. My husband had a similar experience. So it's hard for me to say whether or not everyone has to experience such a drastic change. Personally, I don't see how one can become born again without it being drastic because one does look at the world with new eyes. BUT, if a person has grown up his whole life being exposed to Christianity and believing Jesus's words, then maybe their experience wouldn't be as drastic as mine was. The question remains; Do you believe each and every one of Christ's words? Do you look to Him inside of you for all the answers to life's problems? Do you experience a peace and joy beyond all human understanding? These are the fruits of the Spirit. If you're still not sure, then ask Christ into your life and ask Him to SHOW you He is there for you. It will NEVER hurt you to do this.

That's right Butcha.  You must be born again by the Spirit but it may not be as dramatic as it was for another.

Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb and be born? Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (Joh 3:3-6)

Unless a man is born of water - That which is born of the flesh is flesh...and can't please God

Unless a man is born of the Spirit - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...and is right before God through Faith in Christ

But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Heb 11:6)

for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; (Rom 3:23-24)


Some are drawn by God and their heart gradually moves toward Him until they believe in Christ for salvation.

Others resist until they hit the end of themselves and only God's mercy remains and then they believe.

But all must repent of their sin and believe God.  It does not matter how long you have been in one or many churches or how many good works one performs.  That counts for nothing without God's grace through faith.

The process is not some formal ceremony as some would claim.  It is a personal turning from the sin and the flesh and believing in Christ for your salvation.


But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth, and in your heart;" that is, the word of faith, which we preach: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him. For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Rom 10:8-13)

and brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." They spoke the word of the Lord to him, and to all who were in his house. (Act 16:30-32)


May God bless you.