ChristiansUnite Forums

      Hello and Welcome everybody.

     We, BlackeyedPeas, 2nd Timothy, Petro, Reba, and myself (Paul2) have been studing and debating the Rapture of the Church and the End Times in general on the "Best of Paul2 Pre-Trib. Rapture pages. We have all agreed to restart this study, point by point to reach conclusions before continueing on. We have covered many things on the other post already but have not reached conclusions as we are seeking to do.

     I suggest that we keep the other thread active to continue discussing previous topics that we are in the middle of, and using this thread to start from the beginning and address each issue before moving on.

     We have decided as a group to first try to identify who "the Chosen", the "Elect", and the "Saints" are. We will be studing to see if they are all the same or different, and if different, what the differences are or are not. We will also be seeking to discover where the Saints of the Old Testament are the same or different from the Church and the Tribulation Saints.

     Any who wish to be part of this study are welcomed but lets keep this thread organized. Please only post things here that are relevant to this first topic, "the Chosen", "the Elect", and "the Saints". If you wish to discuss anything else please do so on the thread titled "the Best of Paul2's Pre-Trib. Rapture Pages". We will still discuss and answer questions on that thread while reserving this thread for specific topics agreed upon by the group.

    I already started to post using our new format on the other post and will copy my first post of our revised study here.

    Tom, is there a way that we can keep this thread from getting side tracked? Anyone who reads this first post will see what we are trying to do here but this first post will get buried quickly and our format will be lost. As long as people read this first post things will work but once we get going, it could become a free for all again which is what we are trying to prevent so we stay on track, issue by issue until conclusions can be reached. Let me know what you can think of to keep this from happening on this thread.

                                                              Paul2

 

Lets begin then,

  I'll start with "the Chosen". Who are "the Chosen?"

Deuteronomy 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

    From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 14:2 "for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

    Again from the above verse we see the same thing. The Jews had been chosen to be a peculiar people unto God, above all the nations upon the earth.

    1 Chronicles 16:13 "O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen ones.

    The verse above mentions the chilren of Jacob (Israel) as God's chosen ones.

   Psalms 33:12  "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

   At the time of the writing of these verses in the Psalms Israel was the nation whose God was the Lord, and the people of the nation Israel, were chosen for his own inheritance.

   Psalms 78:31 "The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel."

   In the verse above we learn that the Wrath of God came upon them (Israel) and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
Remember this: the WRATH of GOD came upon the chosen men of Israel. It seems that to be "chosen" does not mean they can not under-go Wrath! To be chosen is no guarentee that those chosen will not under-go Wrath.

   Psalms 105:6 "O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen. "

    In the verse above we see Abraham is the servant of God, and the children of Jacob are the Chosen ones. This would lead me to believe that Isaac was not considered "chosen" but only the children of Jacob are chosen. I'm not saying Isaac did not receive Salvation, I'm saying that according to the above verse he was not considered "chosen."

   Psalms 135:4  "For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure."

    Now we find that Jacob has been chosen unto God Himself, and Israel has been chosen for His peculiar treasure.

    Isaiah 41:8  "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."

    Above we have Israel (the nation or Jacob?) the servant, Jacob whom God has chosen, Abraham God's friend. Notice that Abraham is not called "chosen" but called God's friend! I believe theres a reason God calls Abraham His friend but not "chosen." So far Abraham does not belong to the group considered to be Chosen. He is stated to be God's friend.

    Isaiah 44:1 "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:"

    Above there seems to be a difference between Jacob the servant, and Israel the chosen.

    Isaiah 65:15  "And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:"

    The servants of God will be called by another name! The sevants of God will not be called the chosen in the future after this was written for this was prophecy at the time written.

    Okay, thats the Old Testament version of the Chosen. The chosen so far are Jews, children of Jacob, the nation of Israel.

    Matthew 20:16 " So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    Wait, lets look at this carefully. the word chosen is used but how? It doesn't say THE CHOSEN, it says chosen as an action. Could this still mean the Jews? Now who are the called? Could the called be Gentiles called into the Church, and those few who were chosen be Jews that were also called into the church? Could this refer to the Remnant of Israel? Lets continue on and see what we find out.

    Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."

    Now we see the "Elect" who are chosen. Who are the Elect? Could the Elect be the Remnant of Israel?

   John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

    Jesus is speaking to Jews in the above verse, before the Church began. Wouldn't these chosen be the Remnant of Israel?

     John 15:19  "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

     In the verse above Jesus was talking to His Jewish disciples, which could still be considered the remnant of Israel.

    Acts 1:2  Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:"

    In the above verse the Apostles are identified as those He had chosen. The apostles were decendants of Jacob, therefore qualify as the Remnant of Israel.

   Acts 22:14  And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

    In the above verse Paul is chosen, Paul was a Jew also part of the Remnant of Israel.

    Ephesians 1:4  "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    Finally the Church is in clear view. But something is different. The Church was chosen IN HIM. The Church is chosen in Him, the Church was chosen to be indwelled by the Holy spirit and become His Body, the body of Christ.

   2 Thessalonians 2:13  "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    The Church just wasn't chosen as the Jews were chosen in the Old Testament, they also suffered the Wrath of God. The Church was chosen to something else, chosen to receive Salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth. Theres a difference between what the church was chosen to and what Israel was chosen to be.

    1 Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    Above we are told of the destiny of the Church. We are a chosen Generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, called out of darkness into His Light. The Church becomes the royal priesthood, not the levites, the Church was called out of darkness into His light. We are a chosen Generation. Those chosen to be in the Church are different from those chosen to be His people in the old Testament which were children of Jacob.

   Revelation 17:14  "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. "

    Those with Christ are CALLED, and CHOSEN, and FAITHFUL.

                                                          Paul2

Ex 19:5-6

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
KJV
Ps 33:12

12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD: and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
KJV

1 Peter 2: 4---10

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

Ps 106:4-5

4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favour that thou bearest unto thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;

5 That I may see the good of thy chosen, that I may rejoice in the gladness of thy nation, that I may glory with thine inheritance.
KJV

1 Peter 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
KJV


I just don't see the division you guys do.

    Seeing we are studing The Chosen, the Elect, and the Saints, I'm going to post on the subject of the "Elect."

                            "THE ELECT"

Isaiah 42:1  "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles."

     The above verse is the first place I've found the word "Elect" in the Bible. Jesus Christ Himself is the first person described as "Elect" in the Bible.

Isaiah 45:4  "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."

     Above we see that Jacob is called God's "servant", just as Jacob was called God's servent when we searched for the "Chosen". Israel is called God's elect, just as Israel was called the Chosen, in my last study on the Chosen.

Isaiah 65:9  "And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there."

    The verse above is interesting, first we see the "seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor". This is clearly Jesus Christ. Then we see "mine elect" shall inherit it. This would be the Remnant of Israel, (every Jew that ever lived was not the elect. The Elect are elected unto Salvation and are the Remnant of Israel.) Then we see "and my servants" shall dwell there. Are the servants the same as the elect? Or is God using different terms for different groups?

Isaiah 65:22 "They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. "

    The above verse is future prophecy that will be fulfilled in the Millenial Kingdom by the Remnant of Israel, the Old Testament Saints were promised this. This prophecy is of the future kingdom on earth. The remanant of Israel is the Elect in this verse.

    Thats it for Old Testament verses of "the Elect". So far I see the "ELECT" as being the Remnant of Israel. Jesus christ was called the Elect, and Jesus was in His Humanity, a Jew, the Remnant of Israel.

Matthew 24:22  "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

     The above verse is the first time the Elect is used in the New Testament. I believe these "elect" are still the Remnant of Israel. I believe these Elect to be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel           I believe that these ELECT 144,000 are also described as "THE WOMAN" of Revelation 12 that will be in the place prepared for her in the desert and protected by Antichrist as described in Revelation 12. see below:

    Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
   14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
   15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
   16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
   17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    If the Woman is the Remnant of Israel, what we would have here is: The Remnant of Israel (the 144,000) are taken to the desert during the last half of Daniel's 70th week, from when Antichrist receives his power from Satan and reigns for 42 months which equals 1,260 days. The Remnant of HER (the remnant of Israel's) SEED. Who would that be? I believe the Remnant of the WOMANS SEED(woman being the Remant of Israel) ARE THE TRIBULATION SAINTS.

     Notice that the Remnant of the Womans seed keep the "commandments of God", and have testimony of Jesus Christ. It sounds like works to me. It also sounds like the LAW.
Something to consider here: During the first 69 weeks of Daniel, the Jews, who the prophecy concerned as well as Jerusalem was under the Law of Moses. Israel still has one week to complete. Could Israel be placed back under the Law during the final 70th week? Before you answer consider the Two witnesses of Revelation 11 would be the ones to reveal God's will and to be His prophets for the first half of Daniel's 70th weeK. John in Revelation 11 is told to measure the temple and those who worship in the temple. If God doesn't want the Temple why ask John to count those who worship in the rebuilt temple? I'm not making any conclusions yet but it merits consideration and more study.

Matthew 24:24  "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

     In the above verse I still see the Elect as the Remnant of Israel. I see Antichrist coming to power in the last half of Daniel's 70th week, and beginning his lying wonders, which is when the "Woman" (who I believe is the Remnant of Israel) will go into the desert for 1,260 days or 42 months during Antichrist reign.

Matthew 24:31  "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    In the verse above I do not see the Rapture! First the angels are doing the gathering where during the Rapture Jesus Christ Himself calls the Church, both dead and alive to meet Him in the air. Angels are doing the gathering, not Jesus Himself, this is important to understand. This happens at the end of Daniel's 70th week, this is the gathering and resurrection of the Remnant of Israel. Old Testament Saints are being resurrected as well as the 144,000.

Luke 18:7 "And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?"

    At the time the above verse was spoken the Elect refered to the Remnant of Israel. Sound just like the souls which cry from under the alter when the 5th seal is broken.

Romans 8:33  "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

     In the verse above I can still see the remnat of Israel. How?

     Lets go back further.

Romans 8:29  "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
   30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
   31: What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
   32: He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
   33: Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

   Now lets begin with verse 30. I see the Church in verse 30, Pre-destined, Called, Justified, and Glorified. If verse 30 is about the Church, could verse 33 being speaking of the Remnant of Israel? Could not the meaning be don't think less of the Remnant of Israel, for though they were not members of the Church, God Justified them? Consider where we are in Romans. The next chapter, chapter 9 deals with Israel in the past before the time of Jesus. Chapter 10 of Romans deals with Israel during the time of Paul, and chapter 11 deals with the future remnant of Israel. Considering where these chapters are in relation to each other and the theme that is being put forth, could the Elect in Romans 8:33  be the Remnant of Israel which is becoming the focus of Paul through the chapters 9-11? You may not agree but do you see the possibility that this is the message?

   I'll continue this on the next post.              

                                                       Paul2

                     "The ELECT" Part 2

     Here comes the exceptions: So far i can see the Elect being the Remnant of Israel. Now things will change. We will see the church called the elect and also angels being called the elect. Remember this, angels also are called elect, as we shall soon see. We all must deal with the angels being called elect. We all must explain the elect angels into our interpretations. But first, back to the Word.

Colossians 3:12  "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;"

    The above verse can not be the Remnant of Israel only, it could refer to Jewish converts to Christianity but also must include the Gentiles of the Church as well. I believe that this is the first verse using the "elect" that "must" be applied to the Church. We have now found an exception where the Church is described as the Elect of God, and where the remnant of Israel could not be the focus of the verse.

1 Timothy 5:21  "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

    The verse above is another exception. This makes identifying the Elect next to impossible. Are we to believe Angels are part of the body of Christ if the Church is considered to be the Elect? No! Are Angels to be considered the Remnant of Israel? No! We are all going to get confused and stumble over this usage of "Elect Angels" in this verse. We could try to make the word "angels" mean "messenger" but it seems a stretch. If messenger was the real meaning there are plenty of ways to convey that without confusion. The chosen word was "angel" and I believe we should interprete it that way.

2 Timothy 2:10  "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

     I see the Church as the elect in the above verse.

Titus 1:1  "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"

    The elect in the above verse could be the Remnant of Israel or the Church, or both.

1 Peter 1:1  "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
   2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

    In the above verse we can see that when taken in context that the Elect refers to the Church.

1 Peter 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

   In the above verse we see Jesus Christ is called Elect again.

2 John 1:1  "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;

    The above verse refers to the Church as elect again.

2 John 1:13 "The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

    The elect is the Church in this verse.

    That completes the Scriptures that use the word Elect in a relevant way to our study.

     My conclusions are: "The elect" most times refer to the Remnant of Israel, a few times to the Church, twice to Jesus Himself, and once to angels. Now were all in trouble! The angels really made this complicated for us to identify the elect. The question arises now: Are their different groups of "the Elect?" I say there must be. Jesus is a different elect than the angels. The Church is a different elect than the angels. This we should be able to agree on I hope.

    The question then becomes are "the Elect" that are found in the Old Testament, the Remnant of Israel different than "the Elect" of the Church?

    Seeing that Jesus Himself and the angels must be different in being "the elect" I would think that the Remnant of Israel and the Church could also be different in regards to being "Elect".

    Ok, I presented The Elect with Scripture, and offered my interpretation. We can begin to study and debate these verses and their meanings.

   P.S. It was all going so well and smoothly on part 1 of "THE ELECT". I start page 2 and it gets all confusing and messed up!

                                                            Paul2

Oklahoma Howdy to Paul2,

We'll do the best we can. I know of one not mentioned in your first post who would like to turn this into a "There is no Rapture" thread. I will simply help Wopic start his own thread on the opposite topic, and he will not be allowed to disrupt this Bible Study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Paul1 said to Paul2  ;)

Gal 3:28-29

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

    Reba,

    I agree that "in Christ" (the Church) all are one. But what about those not in Christ? Before Christ there was a difference. "In Christ" is refering to the Church as I see it. I'm looking at those before the Church and those after the Rapture of the Church who are NOT IN CHRIST.

Romans 11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
   6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace:otherwise work is no more work.
   7: What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
   8: (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    Consider verse 5 carefully. At the present time, there is a Remnant (of Israel) according to the "ELECTION TO GRACE." These are IN CHRIST and the Church.

Romans 11:25  "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
   26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
   27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
   28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

                Paul2 does listen to Paul1,

    Right now, present time their is a difference between Israel and the Church. "As concerning the Gospel, they are enemies". They will be saved but not "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in". Israel right now is not "in Christ" but enemies of the Gospel. There is a Remnant of Israel in the Church as spoken of in verse 5, but Israel outside the election of Grace, that is the Church, are enemies to the gospel until the fulness of the gentiles be come in, Which is the completion of the Church and the Rapture of the Church. When the Church is Raptured, Israel will begin to see, not until because they are blinded in part.

Romans 11:33  "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

     Paul2 says to Paul1 regarding Romans 11:33, "I don't give up that easily."

                                                          Paul2 8)

What makes us one is salvation our salvation is in Him do you know of any other salvation?


 The blood of bulls did not save..

  Christ always was/is  they looked forward we look back but we all look to the cross.
 
He was/is the Lamb

A house divied will fall  we are one

    Reba,

   Was this a responce to my above post (#7) or was this just a statement you are making? I don't know what to make of this.

     I'm just going to sit back and see what happens here for a while. I'm spending all my free time working on these posts but I'm not getting anywhere it seems. I search the Scriptures, analize the scriptures, think out my posts, type my posts but it seems not many people really consider them. Petro said I should back up my position with Scripture and when I post Scripture it seems the Scriptures I post are ignored. This is why I have often just stated my beliefs, because nobody seems to like to respond to the Scriptures I post.

    I'm gonna wait to see the responces before I continue.

                                                        Paul2 ???

Sorry, folks, I was gone most of the day, npow that I am back, I am lost, already.

Paul2, has posted a list of verses and commented on them, what are we supposed to do.

For instance just on the first verse Paul's conclusionary point, I already disagree with Pauls2's conclusion.


I am lost as to what or where we are to debate this, Paul2 you already posted verses, and comentaries on them.

It seems to me............that;

If we are going to debate these points on another thread, this thread should be locked and only the points agreed to, should be posted herein, as a final concensus as to what the answer is to the question posed.

In fact there can be as many threads necessary to have ongoing discussions, on the different questions.

But the outline should post the questions on a locked thread, which will, then be discussed at the debate threads;

For example;

Who are the chosen of God?

Who are the Elect of God?

Who are the Saints of God?

Who are the Faithful of God?

This is just an example...............

These can all be, ongoing threads, to allow maximum participation, and then as they are exhausted, down to a final conclusion they can be answered in a paragraph, citing text.

There is already 26 reponses herein, and we don't even have an outline we can fill in, as we move along to a final conclusion on who gets raptured and when.


Blessings,

Petro

    Petro,

    I had set this thread up for the question and debate thread. I see no reason to start a conclusions thread as we will probably never get to a conclusion to post.

   Things that I posted are up for debate here so you can qoute them and debate them. I was doing what you say I don't do enough, and thats post Scripture.

    I started with "THE CHOSEN" and searcherd the entire Bible for ALL relevant verses using the word "chosen." I offered my opinion on these verses so everyone would know MY interpretation of the verses. They are subject to debate. I was trying to make this easy for everybody. Every relevant verse containing the word "chosen" was posted and I offer my views on them, so you would know MY interpretation of them.

    I decided to then post all the Scripture using the word "elect" that was relevant to our study.

    I had told you to start this and you handed it back to me. Then I spend the last 2 days studing and typing and your complaining. This is why I said for you to do it. It seems that no matter what I do, I can't make anyone happy. This is becoming a waste of my time. Nothing is going to be accomplished, its OPEN SEASON on Paul2!

    I'm ready to give up, and to start a thread for B.E.P., 2nd Timothy, and myself, where we alone can do a study on the end times and Rapture. I've said it over and over, I'm trying to teach an interpretation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a subject you DON'T want to study, just debate.

    You have convinced me that no matter what I do you won't like it. Why should I bother?

                                                         Paul2 >:(

     Now I've been told I'm being Childish! Thats motivational!

   I'll have you know this. I'm really MAD! I wrote in a CHILDLIKE manner to cover ANGER! I thought rather than be RUDE and MEAN again as I was with Reba, I'd try CHILDLIKE, to express my frustration in a nice way this time.

   Well so much for that approach. Maybe some will like me better when I'm mad instead of Childish but I doubt it, but then again I really don't care right now because I'm MAD! (theres a little childish behavior for ya!)

    My wife is mad because I've spent the last few days glued to the Bible and the computer whenever I havn't been coaching my son's soccer team, taking him to his basketball game or seeing the Passion alone twice.  

    Its apparent that I'm trying to present an interpretation that some don't want taught, but I'm supposed to play nice.

    Its like trying to do a puzzle with Scriptures but some people want to pick up the pieces and put them back in the box rather than leaving them face up on the table and waiting to see if it will fit into the picture that is developing as more and more pieces of the Scripture puzzle are added and the picture becomes clearer.

    I knew from the start that this format would lead to picking up a Scripture, looking it over and putting it back in the box, cause it didn't fit YOUR picture. That would be because you have your own interpretation. I started all of these posts a year ago with one intention at that was to present the evidence of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. Thats MY picture that I'm trying to paint. I have made perfectly clear from my first posts on the site.
   
     To complete the Picture of my Scripture puzzle which was and is my intention, the pieces of Scripture must remain face up on the table and not be put back in the box.

    In other words each Scripture must be looked at in two ways, your way and my way. Ok picture this:

    We each have a Bible puzzle with a verse of scripture on each piece. We each take those Scripture pieces from the Bible puzzle and try to make our picture. You may fit a piece of your puzzle in a different location that mine. I may use a piece of my Scripture near the end of my puzzle when many pieces are in place, the picture has developed, and it can be placed into a framework of scripture that has revealed that this piece does fit there. Your building your puzzle and place the same Scripture piece I used at the end to soon, and because of this your picture never developes because by that piece of Scripture being locked in the wrong place, the rest of the pieces will end up wrong and the picture remains incomplete.

   Some Scriptures have two meaning, some Scriptures have Hidden meanings. I need the Scriptures left on the table, face up, if I see that theres a possibility that the scripture will fit like a glove later, when the picture becomes more clear.

   Make your own puzzle using Scripture, paint your picture, Place the Scripture in your puzzle where ever you think they fit to make your picture, thats fine with me. But I should be allowed to paint my picture using Scripture where I see it fits the picture that I'm painting. The goal being who has the most complete picture when the scriptures are all in place and a complete picture is seen, without contradiction when the final picture is revealed.

    My picture of the Bible puzzle is of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church, Daniel's 70th week, the End Times.  

    I don't know what the rest of you are doing but I'm trying to teach an interpretation that places ALL scripture into a complete picture which I have seen.

    Imagine my Bible puzzle has the complete picture under the scripture on the cover of the box the puzzle came in. I have seen the complete picture on the cover of the box and know that if I assemble the pieces together correctly the picture I saw on the cover of the box will be the picture the puzzle creates when assembled properly. I know that the pieces of the Bible form the picture I have seen. Now its just as matter of assembling the pieces. Problem is people keep taking My pieces and putting them in the wrong places. They never saw the picture on the box. They are trying to make My picture into their picture. Paint your own picture with Scripture (hands out a Bible puzzle with pieces of Scripture and whatever picture you want on the cover) now you can create your picture puzzle but allow me to continue with mine.

    Put the Scriptures where ever you want but allow that I be allowed to reserve final judgment on where and when to place Scripture in my interpretation. I know that when my interpretation is complete all convicts we be resolved, there will be no conflicts with the rest of Scripture. The mystery will be solved, and the picture will be clear.

    This has been my goal from the beginning, to present the evidence and theory, the interpretation of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church and the End Times. I will do this somewhere. Maybe here is not the right place for me to do it but thats what I'm here to do, the reason I started posting in the first place!

    I'm mad so I'm going to go now. By the way, How do you like me now? Do you like me better when I Childlike or mad?

    I know this post is a double dose of both but, Hey, I'm Childish when I'm mad!

    I'll get over it, venting like this helps a little, I'll be back when I'm not mad anymore.

                                                       Paul2 >:(

Well Paul maybe you could just be manly. Maybe if scripture was as important to you as your ego you would be willing to see help  when it is offered.

Bep i will just stay away from 'Paul2's' threads  we seems to clash something awful and i believe the thread starter should have some control over the thread.

Hello All,

First, I apologize for being out of pocket most of the last two days. We had a funeral in the family and I've not felt well enough to do much. I really don't like making excuses, especially considering how fascinated I am with this topic.

I think there might be a reasonable compromise that everyone could live with. What about having a separate presentation for each differing view? I don't know how many that would be. I'm positive there are at least three, maybe more (i.e. no Rapture at all, Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Mid-Tribulation Rapture, and Post-Tribulation Rapture. What if the best case for each view could be made in a separate thread without any interruption or debate at all? What if yet another thread was reserved for discussion and debate of the various views?

This is just a thought that would allow a complete picture of each view. I also think it would be much quicker and without so much aggravation in trying to complete a thought without being side-tracked. What does everyone think about this?

My belief could be summarized easily. I believe there are multiple end times and events with a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church. I think it would even be possible to do a brief with the times and events in chronological order.  

Just two cents worth. What do all of you think?

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ok, Paul2,

This is fine with me, I will strat tomorrow, seeing its Sunday and I have been tied up all day, with church and visitation and such.

See you tomorrow...

Blessings, Petro

Paul2, I don't know if you remember me, because it has been a long time since I have really been active on this site (really only before the crash), but I am an orthodox preterist (as opposed to "full" preterism, which says that Christ has already returned), postmillennialist, who believes in Covenant theology.  So I am about as opposite in my eschatological beliefs as it gets in conservative circles.  BUt I would like to get in on this discussion, if you don't mind.  And I would really like to do it in a Berean manner.  It's OK to get emotional and passionate about theological issues, so long as it is handled in a Christ-like way.  Having said that, let me say a few things about your first couple of posts on this thread (I haven't seen anything in the other thread you refer to).  
  First of all, I think you make way too many assumptions in your posts.  You start out with your premises, and then you have a few other premises, and then you go to your Bible, and you seek to show what is says, and that's great, that is what we all should do, but you assume that your initial premises are undebatable, when really, they are the heart of the issue.  For example, you say once that "Jesus is speaking to Jews in the above verse, before the Church began."  You assume there your premise that the church began at Pentecost, and you assume the strong dichotomy between Israel and the Church in the dispensational viewpoint, when really that is the heart of the debate.  So, all of this to say, the way you are approaching this is good in that you seem to want to evaluate the Biblical data, and yet you assume too much.  You need to prove some of that before you can go on to proving the other things.
   Now, as to a thing or two that I disagree with you on:


I believe you are quite mistaken here.  I don't think you will find this idea in the scriptures.  Look at 1 Corinthians 10:4-- "...and all drank the same spiritual drink.  For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."  
   These Jews in the OT drank of Christ who was yet to come.  In other words, they were saved by faith in Jesus Christ who would come and die for their sins.  How then can you say that they are not IN CHRIST?  Look at 1 Corinthians 12:13 -- "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit."   This is, I believe you would agree, referring to the church.  Yet here is extremely similar language to that found 2 chapters earlier referring to OT people.  "Drink into one Spirit"-->"drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them, which was Christ."  You see what I'm saying.  They drank of the same Savior, and thus are also in Christ, just as we are?  I don't think there is any possibility of salvation outside of Christ, thus they were in Christ and we are in Christ.  

I really would like to be involved in this discussion with you, Paul2, and I don't want to offend you.  So if I say anything offensive, just don't get mad, please, just let me know, and I will stop saying such things.

Joel

joelkaki,

Welcome back, just don't through your temper tantrums, or act childish, and you will be fine. LOL..

On on serious note, I welcome your input, maybe we can shed light in this discussion on those verses which puts you at odds with, Gods Word.

Anyway, look forward to your participation.


Blessings,

Petro

HEHE


thanks for the welcome back anyways.  I hope that we can discuss Scripture in a reasonable manner.  
   Perhaps you could outline for me what you believe about specific end-times events as I did for Paul2, so I can know where you are coming from.

Thanks,
Joel

Paul2,

As joel has pointed ouy and so have I, you jump to conclusions, to quick, and make assumptions based on your conclusions, and I see that this is your primary problem in trying to untangle these scriptures (in our understanding of them, not as written).

You need to slow down...

In the first verse you post above, I already see a problem with your statement;

 "From this verse it can be established that the "Chosen" are Hebrews, the Jews, and at the time this was written they were above all people that were upon the face of the earth"

The fact is when God made "choice" of them, they didn't even exist, because they were chosen by God in their fathers (begining with Abraham) note,

what Moses tells them reminding them that it was because of Gods Oath which He swore by His own name, since their is none Higher, when He swore to Abraham;

Deut 4
31  (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
32  For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
33  Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live?
34  Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
35  Unto thee it was showed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
36  Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: and upon earth he showed thee his great fire; and thou heardest his words out of the midst of the fire.
37  And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt;

Of all other believers in the World God made choice of Abraham, not to salvation nor even to serve Him (God). But to be the progenitor of a people Precious and holy unto God, "which would keep the way of the Lord". And would also become a "mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him"
(Gen 18:18-19)

God made a covenant with Abraham, while Abraham slept at Gen 15:1-18.

Abraham was to be a father of many nations, but;

God made choice between Ishmael and Isaac, chosing Isaac, before He was even born, to be a father to Jacob and Esau, and between them he made choice that Jacob would be the father of the nation of Israel which should serve Him. (Ex 8:1,20, 9:1,13, 10:3)

By know you are begining to wonder where am I goin with this?

I will tell you, the OT elect chosen, saints of God are not the nation, let me state it clearly;

So, While it is true God chose the nation of Israel (Jacob), He never chose than as a pre existing soveriegn nation, but rather formed or created them just as He formed/created Isaac in a miraculeous way from two individuals who were as good as dead (Heb 11:11-12)

He never chose them (the nation) to salvation, He chose THEM to serve Him, and make Him (GOD) known throughout the whole World.

So, we already are derailed in our search for the elect chosen saints  from the begining of the teaching of the Word.

It has been brought to my attention that the words choice, chosen, chose are words that have become corrupted by the secular Septuagint use of these translated words.

The KJV's translation has not helped but perpetuated a corrupt misunderstanding of the key verses in which they are found.

I suggest we back up to Abraham at (Gen 15:18), to begin our search for these, because the promise was made to Him, and all of these cchosen elect, Saints can be traced through the Seed of the Promise, not the nation.  

Rom 9
8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9  For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10  And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14  What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15  For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16  So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17  For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


You see Paul, we don't have to go through this excersize, if we just simply trust the Word to bring us to the truth.

Gal 3, tells us who that seed is;

6  Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7  Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8  And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9  So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10  For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


It is very important to understand that the Gospel was preached to Abraham and He was justified by God, because Abraham believed the Gospel (Note verse 8 above)

God preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, this is why Abrahams faith was in Jesus, and the reason why Heb 11, at verse 26 states, concerning these others who were of the same faith as Abraham believed in Jesus;

26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:..................

The chosen elect, saints are all those whom God holds in His  hand, from the begining it has been so. (Deut 33:2-3)(Jhn 10:29)

So, the conclusion is that only believers in Jesus are the chosen elect, Saints of God, begining with Abraham.

How are they different one from another??

Blessings,

Petro

joel,

Yes,  I am not set in concrete as to the exact order of all things, although I do believe the rapture will occur before the wrath of God is poured out upon the earth, so far I have been able to understand it to occur after the seals at the sounding of the first trumpet at Rev 8:7, then there will be a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on the earth, then the end will come, presently there is war in heaven, Jesus is presently sitting at the right hand of Glory, until His enemies are nmade His footstool in heaven, then He will return to earth to establish His Kingdom, which begins with great wrath and judgment upon the ungodly, the binding of the old serpent of Rev 12, He reigns as King of Kings on the earth for 1000 years and then Satan is losened to deceive the nations once again, which will fail, and then the end comes just as it is written at ;Rev 20:7-15, followed by the new eternal creation being ushered in.


The discussion herein centers around when the rapture will occur, and who gets raptured??



Blessings,

Petro

     Joel,

   You may notice some overtones in this post, their not meant for you.

    I don't get mad when people are up front with their believes as you have been. I know we disagree from the beginning and that is fine with me because we both know where we stand.

    I got mad because I have used Daniel's 70 week, over and over but Nobody ever said they believe that the 70th week is history. I mention Antichrist over and over but nobody has said the Antichrist is history. I mention the Rapture and the Second Coming as two different event seperated by at least 7 years, but nobody has told me they consider both events to be one event.

    I get mad when I'm told I'm wrong by those who never bother to tell me what they believe. People take shots at my interpretation but keep their interpretation secret and hidden away from scrutiny and rebutal. To me this is dishonest. I put it all out there, my beliefs for all to see and debate, while others keep silent allowing me to believe they agree in part when they really don't.

    Had I known some believed Daniel's 70th week was History and not in the future, I would have addressed it. Perhaps thats what some fear. If they plainly let their interpretation be known by all, they will be forced to defend their interpretations. To me this is dishonest. I have asked repeatedly that people make their interpretations known but it took you Joel to answer my question for them, and I thank you for that. I wanted to know the views of those debating me, is that so unreasonable to ask? To refuse to let your positions to be known when asked is not being honest to me. Hiding ones belief's is not honest to me.

     I may be honestly childish at times, honestly mad at times. but I'm honest about my beliefs also. My interpretation is attacked by people who hide their interpretation from my counterattack. Thats not being honest or fair. I was told I was being childish for saying it isn't fair to hide a persons interpretations while attacking mine. I'd rather be childish than dishonest. I've been deceived by someone, who to cover their deception, called me childish for asking them to present their interpretation. Why? Because once I know their interpretation I can go on the offensive and counterattack their interpretation, thats WHY!

    Its much easier to stay hidden in the shadows and take shots at those in full light and in the open. Its also Sneaky.

    I don't like cowardly "snipers" who hide their positions and shoot at those in the open who are willing to do battle face to face. (this is refering to Biblical snipers, I want that to be made clear as the U.S.A. is in war time and we need our soldier snipers to find Bin Laden. I have nothing against the real soldier snipers, its part of war. I'd rather see Bin Laden dead than another 3,000 Americans. In real life physical warfare deceptive tactics must be used. We have a real enemy in Bin Laden and must try to stop Him. It would be nice if God would defend America for us but with Abortion, Gay Marriage, and many other things happening I feel its safe to say we might be on our own right now. 9/11 was a missed wake up call that God might not defend us from attack, why should He?)

     I don't get mad with people who disagree with me, I get mad when people are not forth coming, use deception, and refuse to make their beliefs known especially when I request them to make their beliefs known and I'm called Childish for asking!

    I may be "Childish", but I'm "Manly" enough to stand in the open in full view, I'm not a cowardly, sneaky, Sniper hiding their intepretation in the shadows from the one they are shooting at.

    By the way, what happens when a real sniper fires? In real warfare snipers fire and then move away from the location they fired from to escape counterattack. The snipers Position and Location have been discovered, so they re-locate to avoid being attacked themselves.

    Paul2 says, "Now learn the parable of the Sniper."

     There once was a childishly honest man standing in a big field proclaiming to all, all that he could see. As the man stood in the big field he heard questions fired from the darkened treeline at the edge of the field. The questions fired from the darkness inside the treeline when wizzing over the mans head like  bullets being fired by a near sighted sniper. The man in the field offered answers for all to hear as he shouted out toward the darkened treeline where he had heard the questions fired from. The man in the big field never ducked, never dodged, because he didn't know he was being shot at.

     The man in the big field heard another man far away in the big field yell over to him, "Hey! Theres a sniper shooting at you from the treeline over there." The man in the big field walked over toward the treeline to try and spot the sniper that was firing shots at him. The sniper was gone, realizing her position was given away, she had re-located.

    The man in the big field walked back to the center of the field, yelled over a loud thank you to the man across the big field who had alerted him that he was being shot at and to the position of the sniper who was firing at him.

    The man in the big field thought to himself "I was being shot at, I felt something wasn't right. The sniper must have had a silencer. Thats why I couldn't hear the shots. The silencer had allow many shots to be fired at me, its a good thing the sniper is near sighted than far sighted, I was far enough away not to be hit by the shots fired. I knew something wasn't right when I heard the questions and answers wiz by my head, but I never imagined it was a sniper hiding her positions in the shadows.

    The man in the big field just stood there with his jaw dropping down, trying to comprehend all he had been through today. This is where the parable of the sniper leaves off as of now.

     (The wife of the man in the Big field just told him to go to the store, so off to the store goes the man in the big field.)

    Paul2 yells across the big field, "Thanks again Joel, its all clear to me now!

                                                        Paul2

 

     Petro,

    I'm not saying you are wrong! I'm trying to explain to you that the same verses of Scripture may have more than one meaning depending on the dispensation and age the reader is in.

   I'm showing how the scriptures fit into my interpretation, not yours. You presented you position, which I have not challenged yet, I agree with somethings you have said.

     I also believe there are other meanings for Scriptures which I am trying to present as to how they fit My interpretation. I've been "shot at by a biblical sniper" so I've come to realized this isn't a peaceful discussion, but a falsely polite war we are engaged in. Build your case but allow me the same right to build my case. I'm not done yet presenting my evidence to the Jury yet.

     Now that I have been fired upon, I will take up my offensive position in the open for I am not affraid.

    There is an under lying "tone" you use with me , which is fine by me as long as I have the right to do the same.

    I'll be posting a few questions for clarity for you to respnd to, so your position will be clear for all to see.

                                                         Paul2
                                                            Paul2

No problem, Paul2.  I haven't got a problem with people knowing what I believe.

However, let me clarify something.  You said:


I don't think the Antichrist is history, because I don't think Scripture even supports the idea that there is one single person called the Antichrist.  

Joel

                                       ;D       ;)

                                                       Paul2 8)

OK, thanks, I'm not sure exactly where you stand, but that may be because you have not exactly decided all of your stance yet, as you indicated.  Would you say, though, that you take a generally dispensational outlook on the Bible?

Thanks,
Joel

Paul2, so where are you envisioning this discussion goes from here?  I'm not really getting it.  Are you planning on adding to your posts about the chosen, the elect, and all that, or are we supposed to "counter" what you have already said, or what?  Or are we just kind of supposed to discuss the general issue of who is included in the Rapture and when it occurs?

Thanks,
Joel

joel,

I am not a hyper dispensationalist, which would claim, God is thru with Israel,and the Old Covenant promises now belong to the church, in Rom 11, I do see yet future promise the nation of Israel and her restoration,in lite of Jer 31:31,  yet the remanent which will be saved are saved based on the same New Covenant the church is presently a partaker of, they the remanent are included in the Mystery revealed to Paul of which he speaks of at Eph 2.

I can't see, how christians separate them from the church, since, it is clear at Rom 11;

25  ............. that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The union of the two, happens according to these verses upon the fullness of the gentiles, then all Israel shall be saved.

What am I missing??


Blessings,

Petro

That is not what a hyper-dispensationalist believes.  Hyper-dispensationalists (ultra-dispies) are those who believe the church started later than Acts 2, some say 9, others 15, others even 28, and they say that the gospels and the epistles (at least many) not written by Paul are not for us, and thus water baptism and the Lord's Supper are not for us.  Horrific if you ask me.  
   What you describe there is the position that some covenant theologians take.


I think we are pretty much in agreement here.  I believe that the church is included in the promises made to Israel, because ultimately those promises were made with Christ, and thus by our union with Him we partake of them as well.  But I do believe that one day God will save ethnic Jews en masse, but that will not be a separate program from the church as dispies believe, but rather they will be saved and brought into the church.


I agree, although I do not see that means that they will go back to the land of Israel etc.  But I do believe Israel will be saved en masse, for the sake of God's love for the patriarchs (Romans 11:28-29)



Joel