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Mark 7:13 Making the word of Yahweh of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

The 'church' has accepted the rituals and celebrations of the pagan traditions. Christmas, Easter, Valentine's Day, etc., not to mention having 'dress-up harvest parties' on 10/31, as if there's a difference.

James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before Yahoshua and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Our gatherings are spotted of the world. Lights, camera, action......pack on the make-up, sell some tape series and videos, things Yahweh gave for free. The lights, the messages, the song services all a fine-tuned orchestration, or production. Still Yahweh is merciful and touches His people. I love Him so much because He brought me out of Babylon, the great whore.

Matthew
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.you

Ask Him to show you the truth. He will. And if you listen and obey, He'll show you even more.

Seeking the Truth,

Strong Defender
 

I was watching a MASS one day being televized, and to tell the truth, those poor people walking back to their seats looked like "dead men walking." The whole ceremony was absolutely morbid and ritualiatic with no joy expressed whatsoever. I suppose they were attempting to appear pious, but the JOY of the Lord was absolutely absent.

I think the Lord is honored when we celebrate His majesty, love, New Covenant benefits, and blessings that were bought with His body and blood with praise and worship.

aw

I'm not catholic or lutheran but I can tell you that those people were solemn and respectful, not morbid, because they believe in the presence of Christ in the Eucharist.  They WERE remembering the New Covenant benefits and the blessings that were bought with His body and blood.  I've watched the Mass on TV, also.

The few catholic masses I've been to have been full of joy.   Likewise the vast majority of Anglican Eucharists.

Whether they would all look joyful on a TV screen to someone with only a vague idea of what's going on, I couldn't say, but then liturgy isn't meant to be a spectator sport.

Good one ebia.  The same can be said for the "casual" Christian.  I've noticed some who physically attend Church treat it as a "spectator sport" and, as a result, never seem to be fullfilled - you can spot them in the congregations.  They are the ones with the big 'though cloud' hanging over their heads and Jesus is not visible in the cloud.  

Ah yes, the catholic heresy of TRANSUBSTANTIATION. It is just one of several abomnations set forth by the RCC.

The RCC's ideas of communion result in the very thing that scripture teaches against- NOT discerning the Lord's body which can result in DAMNATION. The very idea that one has to be a member of that organization and participate in another heresy (baptismal regeneartion) results in all others NOT being members of the BODY of Christ. I would gladly receive communion with any cathoic who declares that they are a blood- bought born again child of the King. Belonging to the organization however is absolutely worthless in and of itself. It is NOT the Lord's body! The Lord Himself teaches to do this in "Rememberance of Me until I come." He did not say to s do this to receive eternal life. To add communion to the list of requirements for salvation is just one more reason the anathema of God is on that message. I guess the fact that Mary is prayed to 7-10 more than jesus should answer many of the questions concerning the piety.

I think the latest evidence of the magnitude pf pedopelia and the continued efforts to not make all names public are just further examples of the arrogance of the RCC and proofs that it is not the BODY of CHRIST.

aw

This post wasn't aimed at the Catholic church.

It pertains to the modern 'Prodestant' church.

To be the whore, you must have had something to 'sell'.

Catholisism never has. They have never truly know the Master. It was founded on the control of people.

Prodestants have sold out, celebrating pagan rituals ordained by the Catholic church, yet claiming to be different.
They sell what was never theirs, the gospel. Freely you receive, freely you give.....not anymore. Now it's all about timing the message given, making it long enough to produce four tapes for another item on the table for sale at the back of the 'church'.

Riches are preached now, not righteousness equating prosperity with financial gain. Is that the inheritance spoken of in the word? Better think about it a little more.

Pray for the truth, He will show all who truly want to know the truth.

Strong Defender
 

Many today have accepted the traditions from Babylon other than catholics.  

Strong Defender says:


That is a false judgment.  I am protestant (not a prodestant - what ever that is). The statement doesn't come close to describing the church I attend.  Not even close.  No where near the truth.  In fact - of all the protestant churches I've ever attended - the statement is representative of none.  Please, don't confuse televangelism (which I do not watch) with actual God-fearing, Jesus-loving community churches.  To do so shows narrow minded ignorance of reality.

A basic problem is that the RCC thinks it IS THE CHURCH! It is NOT!!! and neither are Protestants. The CHURCH is the "Body of Christ" and consists of all of the blood-bought saints from the past and now. In short, it is all who have trusted Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of eternal life. IT makes no difference whatsoever whether they are catholic, protestant, non-denominational, black, white, female, male, bond, free, etc.

The church of the Lord Jesus Christ "ARE PEOPLE!!!"

aw

AMEN aw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are pagan rituals and are they observed still in some churches across America regardless of the denomination?  And do the churches some attend sell things that were freely given to them by Yeshua?


this speaks of Yeshua.
Isaiah 45:13  I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the Lord of hosts.

Many churches in this country and elsewhere have become more of a market place than ever before.  Then one might say - they have to cover their costs for their products (some mark a product up beyond that).  The catholics sold indulgences - (for the forgiveness of sins - this isn't scriptural).  Some groups even make images of Yeshua's cross and sell it for profit - should the cross be sold?  Capitalizing off of what Yeshua gave freely and what HE has done for their own financial gain.    

Reminds me of what He did when the MONEYCHANGERS were in the Temple. I really get upset when I sense a false prophet is trying to "FLEECE the Lord's flock!!!!"

aw

MONEYCHANGERS were in the Temple.  exactly! that says the way it has become. The christian bookstores really reflect this as well - all kinds of people writing books for a buck.  They are selling what HE taught them and what HE gave them from HIMSELF, by the Holy Spirit.  it reminds me of the harlot spoken of in Ezekiel 16: - she took the goods HE gave her and sold them/herself to her lovers.  Or of the harlot in Proverbs 7: that snared people (young men) with lusts and desires while her husband the "goodman" was on a journey.   This upsets me as well.

you know what really suprised me - is when "christian bookstores" started selling "lord of the rings" and such like it.  Desiring to please men and themselves more than YHWH.

Galatians 1:
  10.  For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
 
HIS command - this is how YHWH feels about witchcraft, sorcery, and such like it.

Deuteronomy 18:
 10.  There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
 11.  Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
 12.  For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
 13.  Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God.


Paul and Barnabas - this is how they felt about it!

Acts 13:
 6.  And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
 7.  Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
 8.  But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
 9.  Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
 10.  And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
 11.  And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand. 12.  Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

what happens to those partaking and condoning such?

this is the harlot -

Revelations 18:
 23.  And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee (notice this - the light once did shine there); and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

what else will happen -

Revelations 21:
8.  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

pretty much says it - i wouldn't want to be caught dead condoning such -

Man can not bring about the demise of the church.

It is Christ's, He is the head of the church His body. He bought and paid for it.  No amount of adulterations of the truth by man will ever bring about its demise. God's will be done.

you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of.  

Ephesians 1:
20.  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
 21.  Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
 22.  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
 23.  Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The American Church for the most part has become the First Church of Babylon. There are a few exceptions though.

Many churches have sold out when they accepted the 501(c)3 status and became a corporation with a board rather than a "Church' with a board of elders to govern. Many churches have replaced God's Word with psychology, or mixed psychology with the Word. Many churches have become so "seeker friendly", that they are preoccupied with nickles, numbers, and noses. Many churches will not even mention a word about hell, and/or sin. They don't want to damage a person's "self-esteem".Most in churches today walk, and talk like the world. There's not a dime's worth of difference between the two. The sad part is when they say,"We are just saved sinners".( so do "saved sinners" go to heaven while "unsaved sinners' go to hell?)

The falling away has been occurring right before our eyes!

The good news is that Jesus has a remnant who will not be joined with a harlot. There are thousands across the land who have come out of her and will not indulge in her idolatries.

The broad way leads to destruction, but the narrow way to life eternal.

Yes, there are 7,000 who have not knelt down to Baal.

Psalm 119

"you are correct in that there is a church that is HIS body that HE is the head of.  If HE is the head and they follow HIS lead - it is safe to say they won't displease HIM in unrighteousness - for no unrighteousness should be found in HIM.  i do say however that there are many groups calling themselves the "church" and saying HE is their head and they continue in fornication and adultery with the world (Babylon) - these groups are following after the traditions of man, and the world - it is their demise - i believe Strong Defender was speaking of. "


True. It is the demise of false Christianity and man made religion that will truly come about. God's will be done. The true church in Christ will be. God's will be done.

Every whore was once a virgin. Nobody was born defiled. Born into a sin nature, yes, but not turning tricks right out of the womb. What was once pure, what was once the 'body', is now turning tricks. Accepting the world into their churches. Celebrating that which is evil, because, they say 'He understands what we mean by our celebration'......total and complete compromise. Whores.

You say 'It is the demise of false Christianity and man made religion that will truly come about'. False doctrines are what they are. That's why they cannot be and never will be 'the whore' spoken about in the word. Those were perverse and never pure. They were never virgins.

While I am NOT RCC, I find myself very uncomfortable when reading or talking about a specific denomination's practices or problems.  

I, personally, would rather obey the scripture:
1) lift up the name of Jesus
2) Preach the gospel
3) Make disciples of all men/women
4) answer questions concerning the hope within me.
5) discuss the Bible with accuracy, as best I can...

I have discovered that persons who really read and study the Bible, generally reach a point where they either begin working hard to 1) reform the fellowship they are attending and the denomoination of attendance OR 2) move to a different Bible-teaching fellowship.  

When I read the Scriptures, I see the local church is simply an assembly of the local believers who work and fellowship together to share the gospel with their community.  I see absolutely nothing in the scriptures supporting the building of mass denominational organizations that soak up money, manpower, resources for things that are NOT Gospel oriented.  If the hierarchy of the denominational organization does not place the maximum $ of persons and resources/money "on the streets," I begin to suspect the organization of losing its focus. this description includes RCC and many old line denominations.  when those same denominations begin to preach and spend their efforts at social change and ecology, instead of preaching the uncompormising message of Christ Crucified and Risen, the soon and coming Lord of Creation, I begin to suspect a severe loss of focus.  

The purpose of the Church is to be salt among the society of rotten unbelievers, slowly changing some of the unbelievers NOT changing the society of unbelievers...  the Church is mandated to change society one new birth at a time.  What good will it do someone to make them a more honorable and more productive member of society IF I NEGLECT TELLING HIM/HER ABOUT THE NEW LIFE CHANGE THAT IS FOUND IN CHRIST???  Mathew 7:21-23

The PawnRaider

Here is an interesting article saying that many others are realizing about the "church" - i say that speaking of the harlot not the bride.  The peoples eyes and ears have been opened. For your encouragement as well.

RE: "OUT OF CHURCH" CHRISTIANS
-by Andrew Strom.
I am writing on a rather unusual topic today. On Monday night (31 March) I was invited onto a Christian Radio show in New Zealand to discuss the growing numbers of "Out-of- church" Christians in the West - people who have left the churches for various reasons but still claim a strong Christian faith. It was a very interesting night, and the phones ran hot.

This "Out-of-church" phenomenon has now grown so large that books are being written about it. In fact, several years ago I heard an estimate that there are TENS OF THOUSANDS of such Christians just in our largest city (-Auckland) alone. And I believe it is the same right across the Western nations. I have personally come into contact with literally hundreds of such people. The surprising thing is that they are often the most committed kind of Christians - praying, insightful, deep- thinking. Yet they have grown tired of "playing the game" inside our church system and have opted out. Often their involvement goes back many years. In fact, they had commonly been leaders of various kinds.

But now they have left. Why? The church obviously finds this a very difficult thing to explain or deal with. The usual accusations are often trotted out: "So-and-so has been hurt and has a root of bitterness". Or they are in "rebellion". Or they are "not a team player". Or they are "backsliding".

But if you talk to these people you will often find that they have been sitting in church for years and years, and they simply cannot stand to sit and watch the same old game being played any more. The LACK OF GOD is what gets to them - even in our most "Spirit-filled" churches. WHERE IS GOD IN ALL OF OUR ACTIVITY? Surely this is not the way it is supposed to be?

New fads and programs come and go, but the mediocrity and LACK OF GOD just seem to go on forever. And so quietly, sometimes without anyone even noticing, they slowly slip out the doors - never to return. Some have even told me that they felt God "calling them out". Others simply felt they couldn't stay there anymore. The state of the church weighed upon them more than words could say.

Very often they did the rounds of other churches, hoping against hope that they would find a place that felt "right" in any way. (-Though most of them are not "church-hoppers" by nature). But the places they visited never seemed any more "right" than the place they had left. And after a while it just seemed easier to stay at home with God.

As I said earlier, most of these people have not given up on Christianity at all. It is today's church system that they have given up on. And we are talking about large numbers here. Thousands are already opting out. And many feel like they are "waiting" for something.

Some of these people have started up home-fellowships. Or they meet with other couples on a casual basis. But many meet with nobody at all, and they consider themselves in a 'Wilderness' place - alone with God. (-Very common).

I was asked several weeks ago by a pastor whether I agreed that what is happening could be a 'move of God'. That is a pretty radical thought. Many leaders would think the opposite. Because anything that leads people out of "their church" can't be of God, can it?

Hmmmm. All I know is this: The concept of going through a 'Wilderness' just before entering the 'Promised Land' is totally Scriptural. In fact, it is right through the Bible. Even Jesus went through such a wilderness time.

But it is not possible to stay "alone" forever. Some day, if these people are going to be part of a new move of God's Spirit, they are going to have to come out of their wilderness and become part of the "BODY" that Jesus brings together - the 'new wineskin' that will come with this new move of God. Otherwise they could miss out. That is the great danger.

I'm sure there are many on this List with comments or testimonies relating to this topic. I would love to hear from you. It really is becoming a significant issue in the church.

God bless you, my friends.

Kindest regards in Christ,

Andrew Strom.

here is a link if you feel like reading more: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/0-house-churches.html

Here are some of their testimonies - of why they left.


"OUT-OF-CHURCH" CHRISTIANS - A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON
-by Andrew Strom.






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My "Out-of-church Christians" article got the biggest response I have ever had from anything I ever published. I was deluged with hundreds of emails for weeks. Below this huge response is discussed, along with a sampling of these emails.



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"OUT-OF-CHURCH" CHRISTIANS - A WORLDWIDE PHENOMENON
-Andrew Strom.
What a response! Ever since we published that article on "Out-of-church" Christians, I have been inundated with emails about it. It seemed to be going round and round on the Internet because many were from people who are not even on our own List. So many heart-felt stories from people who still love Jesus but have left the churches (-forever, in many cases). Quite an eye-opener, really. This issue is so much bigger than many of us have realized. I don't think a lot of leaders have any clue how many Christians are simply opting out of "organized religion" today. It is quite staggering.

I got a bit of a shock because a Webmaster from France wrote to me saying he had translated the article into French. I started getting email requests saying things like "subscribe a voir le site eglisedemaison.be" and so-on! Which just shows you that this "Out-of-church" thing is a huge issue right through the Western world. Everywhere, people are hungering and thirsting for the REALITY of God, and sadly not finding it in our churches.

Many of the stories people have been sending me are so honest and heart-rending, it really makes you realize that things simply cannot go on the way they are. GOD CHANGE US!! Shake us, transform us, move upon us again in Reformation and Revival power! We cannot go on this way - we really can't.

Much of Christendom has become a "machine" that simply grinds on and on, whether God is present or not. (And I speak here of the "Spirit-filled" churches just as much as the others). Surely the number of genuine Christians who are leaving (in their droves) tells us that we are in some kind of CRISIS?

I have been getting so many responses that I have had difficulty keeping up with them. To give you an understanding of just how "global" this phenomenon is, here is a small sampling to give you some idea:

From: Ian (-Scotland):
"We were formally leaders in our local fellowship, but for various reasons found ourselves outside of the established church... Your estimate about the number of people in this position does feel about right. I have been in contact with one man in London who has a mailing list of four thousand. I have heard that estimates would put the total as being greater than those that are still in 'Church'. But due to the nature of being 'out of church', it will be very difficult to quantify."

From: Pastor Jim C. (-USA):
"In my estimation, in regard to the numbers involved per capita, New Zealand has the sniffles and America has full blown pneumonia."

From: Mary (-USA)
"You would be VERY surprised at the number of VERY high-level, gifted and mature Christian leaders who are NOT attending regular church here in Southern California. Jim and I hosted a care group about 7 years ago with 15 couples. Only 3 of them still attend church."

From: Thomas (-USA):
"I and my family are some of the, I believe, millions who have left the church system or have been called out by God into the "wilderness.""

From: Mike (-Vineyard Church, UK):
"Just read your piece on 'Out of Church Christians'. Amazing - I've been getting an increasing sense that this is what is going on around us here in the UK. So many fine Christians living effectively outside the Body..."

From: Donnalea (-South Africa):
"This phenomenon has reached our country too. I'm sure that many out-of-church South African Christians have already contacted you..."


Andrew Strom again: I received emails along these lines from Finland, Canada, Australia, America, Scotland, New Zealand, Zimbabwe, England and many other places. All over the world this phenomenon is occurring. The scope of it is staggering - it really is.

God bless you all.

Andrew Strom.





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Come passion,

Great posts. I agree with both of them and hope to see the same results in America soon.

I encourage all reading to study Revelation 17 & 18. After reading it, take a hard look at the modern, so called 'church' and then America. As I read both, I see many traits of both in the chapters presented. We are no longer a nation concerned with righteousness. Riches, yes. Fame, yes. Flesh, absolutely. The shoe fits our nation and 'churches' very, very well. Until people humble themselves and accept the truth that is right in front of our faces, the current condition will only get worse and more and more innocent people will perish. Don't be fooled by the warm, fuzzy feelings of your surroundings. It is just candy-coated poison in disguise.

Come out of Babylon, people. Get out of her now!!!

PawnRaider
 great post
note all you bashers of religions( protistan, cathalic, and baptist or what not.) this is how to get a point across with love and recpect , not this negative stuff i see all over this sight , to me some of you seem angree  :-\ and should pray for your good christian brothers whom you believe belong to satans church not poke fun at them. :-\ and ill pray that you let go of what ever anger you fester to your brothers.

would you like me to say the hail mary  ;D jokeing

Butcha,

Where has anyone been made fun of? Where is the anger you perceive? Have you truly lookied into this matter before answering it? Show me these things in the posts provided and maybe we can solve this misunderstanding. I wish no harm to anyone, but only wish to expose the truth of the matter rather than just sit back and float along in the comfort zone of pacifism. Check out the posts and the scriptures provided.

I pray we both find the truth.

This post is aimed at the eronious practices of the 'church'. The celebration of pagan rituals like christmas and others are just a few examples. Can anyone prove that christmas is indeed scriptural and prove that it is Yahoshua's birthday? I would like to see it if you can.

Strong Defender,

Thank you for your posts, and warnings. You've hit the nail on the head!

Our family came out of the 501(c)3 corporation 16 years ago. Has it been lonely at times yes? Do we regret it, no! Once or twice a year we may go visit a "church" with friends, if we are staying with them. We always walk out grieved. The common denominator is the lack of preaching. You may hear a couple verses read, a joke or two, then rabbit chasing, and you walk out saying, "what did he say?" Our family does not participte in the holidays of Rome either (Christmas, Easter, etc...) which already labels one as an odd duck.

I believe with all my heart, that true believers are entering into perilous days. There is "mass" deception all around. There is a flood coming on the land, not of water, but of seducing spirits. We must stand, and not be swayed to the left or the right. We must walk the straight and narrow path to Zion. The Lord will be a shield to those who walk uprightly.

Psalm 119

How can the Catholic teaching on Christ being truly present in the eucharist lead to not discerning the Lord's body.  Note that when Paul was talking about this failing he was talking about those who received the bread and wine unworthily.  If Christ is not truly present in the bread and wine, and treating those "symbols" unworthily leads to damnation as Paul is saying then you have Paul praciticing idolatry by placing a symbol in such a high position that disrespecting it leads to loss of salvation.  That is utter nonsense.


The Catholic Church does not teach that.


But if you deny the presence of the Lord why would they want to have communion with you when you are merely going through the motions over a symbol?


Any normal organization yes but the Church is an organization established by Christ, the normal rules hardly apply.


This is the type of bad doctrine that sola scriptura leads to.  You cannot properly understand the verse on your own because you have not studied Greek and have not had the time to disect and harmonize every scripture together.  This is not your fault it is just too big a job for anyone on their own.

The Greek word for remembrance is anamnesis and is used only 4 times in the New Testament and twice in the Greek Old Testament (the Septuigant).  Each time it either refers to the Eucharist or to a bringing to mind of God of a sacrifice.  This is not a mere do this as a remembering of me, this is a reminder to God of His sacrifice.


Oh but He did.

John 6:54  Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


First you do not have the authority to place God's anathema on anyone or anything.  You do not speak for God.

Second the list of requirements for salvation (which should really be stated as the instructions we are given for properly accepting the free gift) all come directly from scripture.

(see part two of my reply)


Where do you get this statistic from?   ;D

I think this is what is called an unknowable fact.

Perhaps you think all Catholics do is pray the rosary.  Well I pray every day and I very seldom pray the rosary.  Most of my prayers are from the heart or through reading the psalms.


Which evidence is that?  Are you talking about the fact the the problem within the Catholic Church has been shown to be no worse than the population at large or no greater than that of the same problem in the Protestant clergy?  And where do you get the idea that there is a continued effort not to make names public?  The Catholic Church has been more forthcoming than the Protestant Churches.  Think for a moment if the problem is just as bad in the Protestant Churches and there are more Protestants in the US than Catholics we should be hearing more about them.  But we aren't.  that is either because the Protestants are as forthcoming or the press has decided to take advantage of the last acceptable prejudice in the United States - the hatred of Catholics.

Tell me which of these additional requirements for salvation from scripture don't you agree with or accept.

We have to do works to properly accept the gift

Do the Will of the Father
Matt 7:21  
Rom 2:13  

Love God and Mankind
Luke 10:25-28
Mat 25:31-46  

Keep the Commandments
Mat 19:16-17  
Mar 10:17-19  
Mat 5:19-29  
1John 3:15  
Luke 18:18-22  

Repent   
2Co 7:10  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
John 6:54  

Be Humble
Matt 5:3  
Luke 18:9-14  

Suffer Persecution for Righteousness
Matt 5:10  
   
Lose Attachment to Our Earthly Life
Matt 16:25  
Mark 8:35  
Luke 9:24     
Luke 17:33  
John 12:25  
Mar 10:28-30  

Follow Christ
John 10:27-28  

Live a Godly Life
2Peter 2:6  
Rom 8:1  

Be Converted
Mat 18:3-4
Mat 19:14  
James 5:20  
1 John 3:20-21

Emulate the Saints
Rom 11:14

Obey the Gospel
1 Peter 1:2
1 Peter 4:17-18  
2 Thes 1:8  
Heb 5:9  
James 1:21  

Control Our Words
Matt 12:37  

Endure or Continue
Matt 10:22  
Matt 24:13  
Mark 13:13  
1 Tim 2:15
1Ti 4:16  
Rom 2:7

Work Out Our Salvation
1 Tim 6:12  
1Ti 6:19
Phi 2:12  

Be Baptized
1 Peter 3:20-21  
Mark 16:16  
John 3:5
   
We have to believe in His name   
Act 4:12
1 Cor 6:11     

You can belong to theChurch without being a declared Roman Catholic.

But the Church is not the people.

Christ established a Church that has a hierarchy of Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons.

It is a physical entity that we can appeal to when disagreements arise between brothers.

It has been given authority to bind and loose on earth as in heaven.

These things all make the Church something different from a loose congregation of Christians.  Where is such a body if not in the Catholic and or Orthodox Churches?

Who cares if it is the correct date.

Who cares if it used to be pagan.

Paul taught us that even eating from the table of food offered to an idol is nothing if we know the idol is nothing.

Christians who celebrate Christmas as a way to honor and worship the Lord Jesus Christ are no different than those who follow Paul's instructions.

The same goes for Easter and all the other celebrations.

No one might be tempted to say that with that approach one coudl justify anything - and they would be right.

We have a liberty under the new covenant.  We are not fulfilling the letter of the law but the spirit of the law.  God wishes us to worship Him.  It does not matter how specifically, only that we do.  In fact God has told us He does not want sacrifices but mercy.  He would rather we fulfill the law through love then get tied down in literal legalism over dates and rituals.  That Christ's sacrifice made this new economy of salvation possible is the true message of the Gospel.

    This is all we have to do to earn our free gift?

    Sounds like alot of work to me.

    The thief on the cross next to Jesus, the one He told today you will be with me in paradise. Which of the following from your above list of requirements for accepting the "free gift" of Salvation did the thief complete and what did the theif not complete?

    If the thief received Salvation as promised by Jesus, look at what he did to receive his "free gift" of Salvation. The thief wouldn't have made it according to your list. Jesus saved the thief by His faith and confession alone. The thief accepted Christ, confessed Christ and was saved by Christ that very moment of his confession and guarenteed Salvation that very moment when Christ answered him. If it was possible for Jesus to save the thief already nailed to a cross he can save anybody who believes and confesses him even in the last hours of a persons life. You can't "EARN" a gift, it would become a "Reward" and Salvation is not a reward, its a gift.

                                                         Paul2  8)

I think that some of today's churches tend to try and appease the crowd, and some even dilute the truth, as referred to in ACTS 20:29,30.  Also, some churches tend to celebrate the holy Communion as a "side bar", or as an incidental.

In our church, we try and make Communion a very precious and special time of celebrating remembrances of Jesus, who He is, what He does and what He will do.

We also believe in the Greek definition of the word remember.  "To bring up from a sitting or fallen position."   We speak about how flesh cannot live with blood, and when we take the bread, we must also take the juice to make it whole, and that we must remember Jesus from our fallen position so that, through Him, we will also be made whole in Him.  We also encourage all of our members, to NOT partake of the emblems if our hearts are harboring any negatives towards our fellow man, as it is best to pass until such time as we have properly aligned our hearts once again to our Savior.

We are solemn, we are very respectful and we are tremendously joyful that He loves us enough to let us have that time for Him.

I really didn't mean to write a book here....sorry.

In Christ,
Pastor Bruce

No - its what you are expected to do to accept it.
Even if you managed to do everything listed above perfectly, it wouldn't be anything like enough to have earned it.

Quite a few if you'd bothered to stop and think about it.
 

Actually to follow instructions on how to receive a gift is not work nor does it earn you the gift.

Think of a child whom you give a helium balloon.  You tell them to hold on tight and not let go.  If they do this they accept and keep the gift.  They still did not earn it they simply followed the directions you gave them, they obeyed lovingly.  If they do not, they lose the gift.

                       

This is a common mistake made by those who don't understand the instructions made clearly in the Gospel.  Not all of them need to be accomplished.  You just must do them given the opportunity.  For example - you don't have to be baptized with water if you have no water available, but you can be baptized by intent if you would willing be baptized by water were the act possible.  The thief therefore fulfilled most of those on the list by intent.  

Eat His Body and Drink His Blood
Emulate the Saints
Work Out Our Salvation
Be Baptized

(all of which he would have done had he known they were instructed)

He in fact did some of them directly and literally.  He repented, confessed his sins, he  and confessed Christ as savior.  Thus he:

Followed Christ
Did the Will of the Father
Loved God and Mankind
Kept the Commandments 
Repented   
Was Humble
Was Converted
Obeyed the Gospel
Controled his Words
Endured
Believed in His name

Considering his predicament he certainly:

Suffered Persecution for Righteousness   
Lost Attachment to Our Earthly Life 
Live a Godly Life 

You are in error. It does matter. Everything matters and when people take on the belief that 'it's ok as long as you do it unto Him' is one of the main reasons the body is in the shape its in.

Isaiah 1

1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for YHWH hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.

1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken YHWH, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

1:6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

1:9 Except YHWH of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.

1:10 Hear the word of YHWH, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our Elohim, ye people of Gomorrah.

1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith YHWH: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

1:12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

1:15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHWH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

1:19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

1:20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of YHWH hath spoken it.

1:21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.

1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:

1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

1:24 Therefore saith the Master, YHWH of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

1:25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake YHWH shall be consumed.

1:29 For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.

1:30 For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.

1:31 And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

Verses 13 and 14 cover what He thinks of christmas, easter, and any other pagan ritual people who claim to be His participate in.

I would like to know what verses you are talking about concerning the teachings of Paul.

One more thing concerning this chapter. The Holy Spirit has revealed this to me and others I know as the current condition of the modern 'so called' new testament church. And the 'whole head that is sick' are the pastors over the flocks. And the 'whole heart is faint' is the flock. Verse 6 gives a complete diagnosis of the 'church'.  

I'm not trying to stir up strife, but I must do as He instructs me to do. I pray you and I find the truth.

Strong Defender

I think you miss the entire point of Paul's teaching concerning idols and most of the point of the Gospel.

Your implied understanding of Isaiah is as the Jews would have seen it while they were under the letter of the law.  It is not covering "what He thinks of christmas, easter, and any other pagan ritual people who claim to be His participate in." but it covers how He used to see this issue under the old covenant.  We are under a new covenant where there is no need to adhere to a legalistic interpretation of anything anymore.

God desires mercy and not sacrifice, and Jesus taught us that the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.  These specific example (among many others) and the general instruction that we fulfill the spirit of the law through love means we are freed from a legalistic interpretation of the law.  This liberty allowed the early Church to move the day of celebration and worship from the seventh to the first day of the week.  In comparison the day we celebrate Christmas on is relatively minor.


The verse I refered to earlier and some I alluded to in this post are as follows:

1 Cor 8:4-13 refering to it being ok to eat meats offered to idols as long as our faith is strong enough and we do not lead tohers astray whose faith may not be strong enough to differentiate.

Matt 9:13 and Matt 12:7 discusses the idea from the Old Testament (Hos 6:6) where God tried to tell us he didn't want legalistic slaves trying to live up to the letter of the law but loving children who look to please God in anyway not concerned with the tithe of mint and cummin (Matt 23:23 and Luke 11:42)

Mark 2:27 and the verses discussing healings and other good works on the Sabbath show us that God is less concerned about what day we celebrate than the fact that we do celebrate.

Rom 14:4-8 Where it discusses the honoring of one day above another.

Matt 22:37-40 and a host of others teach us that love fulfills the law.  That is what Christ meant when He said He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill.  He fulfilled it through His perfectly sinless life and sacrifical death and He taught us how to fulfill it through love.  

But we do not fulfill the letter of the law even then for Paul teaches us that the letter of the law is death but the spirit is life.  So it all ties back to the idea that God desires mercy not sacrifice.  We are at liberty and our intentions matter so much more than our ritual.


Finally, I do agree that your whole argument of a slippery slope (that you discuss in your first paragrpah and n this last)has some merit.  Not because of how we celebrate but what we celebrate.  We must be ever vigilant to make sure it is the Church absorbing the pagan holidays and not the pagan holidays absorbing the Church.  That is where your concern that "the main reasons the body is in the shape its in." is definitely applicable.  But I do not see that as the source of the problems today, though it is one to constantly consider.   I feel the problem with a sick head and a faint heart is due to worldliness, we are doing a worse and worse job of raising our children to detach themselves from the things of the world (except for me that is - I don't have any children that is why I am an expert at how they should be raised  ;D).  This has led to lower attendance at Church and fewer entering the ministry.  The pleasures of this world are what is causing a weakness in the Church.