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Here is why I believe the “Restrainer” of second Thess. 2 is the Holy Spirit.

First, we know the Restrainer is a person and not a force. According to verse 7 the restrainer is referred to “He” two times. This also rules out the restrainer being a woman.

Second, the restrainer has to be powerful enough to restrain Satan who is the one who possesses  the “Son of perdition”. That eliminates man because the Scriptures teach that man is made lower than the angels which Satan was before the fall. Also Michael the arch angel did not fight Satan in his own strength when contending with him. Jude 1: 9 “Yet  Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”  Michael’s victory over Satan was by the power of the Lord not in his own strength. When man has victory over Satan it is the same way through the power of the Lord (Rev. 12:11). The only power that is powerful enough to prevail against Satan and his kingdom is God.

Third, John 16 shows the Holy Spirit was going to be sent to earth with a special purpose which involves all true believers in the Lord Jesus.

John 16:7 “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.  8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:  9  Of sin, because they believe not on me;  10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;  11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.  15  All things that the Father hath are mine : therefore said I, that he shall take of  mine , and shall shew [it] unto you.”

Notice that Jesus had to depart in order that He could send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the God head and therefore as God He is omnipresent which means He is everywhere. So how could Jesus send us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was already here? He sent the Holy Spirit in a new capacity with a different purpose, a new agenda you might say. What was this new agenda? According to the above verses it was to (1) “reprove the world of sin”, (2) “and of righteousness”, (3) “and of judgment”. All these things work in restraining lawlessness wouldn’t you agree? It is interesting to see how the Holy Spirit would carry out this mission. According to the above passage the Holy Spirit is being sent to the believers in Christ to carry out this new agenda. According to John 14 & 15 he will set up residence in the believers for all eternity. It is by indwelling believers in Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit will carry out this new agenda. So in order for the Antichrist to be revealed the Holy Spirit will have to be removed in this capacity. If the Holy Spirit is removed in this capacity then those that are indwelt by Him for this purpose will have to be removed as well, that is why the rapture of the church has to take place before the Antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit as promised was sent in this new capacity in Acts two at Pentecost. Right away we see the Holy Spirit fulfilling this new function through the preaching of the apostles and the result was that thousands turned from their wicked ways unto the Lord. I would say this left quite a dent in the kingdom of Satan and restrained his influence quite effectively in the three thousand souls who were saved by the first message of Spirit filled apostles. Wouldn’t you agree?

Pilgrim

Pilgrim,
The only problem I have with your theory is that the Holy Spirit is present at all times in all ages. The restrainer could be an angel. Look at Rev. 20.

Revelation 20
1   And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2   And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3   And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

asaph

Hi asaph,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

“Pilgrim,
The only problem I have with your theory is that the Holy Spirit is present at all times in all ages. The restrainer could be an angel. Look at Rev. 20.”

You are correct that the Holy Spirit is present at all times and in all ages. The last part of the post I believe answered that objection.

“Notice that Jesus had to depart in order that He could send us the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the God head and therefore as God He is omnipresent which means He is everywhere. So how could Jesus send us the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was already here? He sent the Holy Spirit in a new capacity with a different purpose, a new agenda you might say. What was this new agenda? According to the above verses it was to (1) “reprove the world of sin”, (2) “and of righteousness”, (3) “and of judgment”. All these things work in restraining lawlessness wouldn’t you agree? It is interesting to see how the Holy Spirit would carry out this mission. According to the above passage the Holy Spirit is being sent to the believers in Christ to carry out this new agenda. According to John 14 & 15 he will set up residence in the believers for all eternity. It is by indwelling believers in Christ Jesus that the Holy Spirit will carry out this new agenda. So in order for the Antichrist to be revealed the Holy Spirit will have to be removed in this capacity. If the Holy Spirit is removed in this capacity then those that are indwelt by Him for this purpose will have to be removed as well, that is why the rapture of the church has to take place before the Antichrist is revealed. The Holy Spirit as promised was sent in this new capacity in Acts two at Pentecost. Right away we see the Holy Spirit fulfilling this new function through the preaching of the apostles and the result was that thousands turned from their wicked ways unto the Lord. I would say this left quite a dent in the kingdom of Satan and restrained his influence quite effectively in the three thousand souls who were saved by the first message of Spirit filled apostles. Wouldn’t you agree?”

God bless,
Pilgrim

Pilgrim, on this I do not agree with you, but thats OK  ;D

Pilgrim,
I like your choice of name; we are just passing through.
I would like to post the passage in 2 Thess.2 and then make a quick observation.

3   Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4   Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5   Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Three times paul says "revealed" here. Just reading at face value, one would think that antichrist would be revealed to the church, because that's who Paul is writing to. Paul could have just "cut to the chase" and said: Hey guys, don't worry, we are going to be outa here.
Another thing is the word "coming". Don't you think the church understood that as being His coming for them?
Reading at face value and taking the normal and simple interpretation, it seems that the order of events is: first antichrist is revealed to the church, and then Jesus comes.

Like A4Christ says, I disagree with you, but that's OK.

asaph

There is a difference bewteen all ages and the "Last Days". The last days began the day that the Lord Jesus Christ began His minsitry on this earth. After He left,  the Holy Spirit came to this earth at Pentecost to continue His work, with some  very specific reasons, one of them being to indwell all believers on Earth, the other to convict unbelievers of sin, convince them of the righteousness of Christ, and speak of the judgement of sin when the Gospel is preached. The harvest of souls can only be gathered today through the Word of God and the Holy Spirit working on a sinner simultaneously.

However. for the Man of Sin to be revealed, God send's *strong delusion* upon this earth. This in itself says that the time of harvesting souls is over. You can't have strong delusion and Gospel success at the same time.

So who hinders Satan on this earth? Ultimately there is no one other than the Lord Himself who can rebuke Satan. Both in Zechariah and in Jude, it is the Lord who rebukes Satan. In Job, it is the LORD who controls and limits Satan's activities.

However, God will allow Satan 3 1/2 years of power along with the Man of Sin, the Beast, the Antichrist, not only to delude the world but to control Christ-rejecting humanity. Since they had no love for the truth, they are blinded to believe *a lie* which is *the LIE* -- that Satan is God.  

Satan has longed to be recognized as God ever since he rebelled in heaven, and this will be his chance in order to bring about his own eternal damnation (along with the Beast and the False Prophet). Even Michael who wars with the devil does it only with delegated authority. It is *the power of His Christ* that brings down Satan to earth (from the atmospheric heavens).

If that were the case, then which angel? The archangel Michael by himself is not sufficient? The more important question is who crushed the Serpent's head? Who defeated the devil in the wilderness? Who destroyed the power of the devil on the Cross? Who comes with his armies from Heaven to overcome the Beast and all his forces? If God could have sent an angel to do the redemptive work of His Son, why would He send His Son? The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable, yet distinct. They restrain the devil and his angels until they are cast into the Lake of Fire.

Having considered the Holy Spirit as the restrainer in the past and now reconsidering Him again I still have reservations. Yes, He does restrain but so do others. Even men are told to resist the Devil and he will flee from them. Of course we know we do it in the authority of Jesus and by His Spirit, for it's "not by might nor by power but by my Spirit saith the Lord." And Michael the Archangel did contend with the devil in the dispute over the body of Moses. He did it in the name of the Lord because Angels do His bidding. This does not take away from the fact that he did restrain him. Could it not be that the restrainer restrains in the name and strength of the Lord? I know it to be so because the battle is the Lords'. And the Lord delights in using the weak things of the world to confound the wise.  "Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger." So argument from weakness is not neccessarily the right argument. In the end an angel does bind Satan, no doubt in the name of the Lord.
Because of my previous argument, that Paul was writing to the church to inform them that Jesus would not come until the lawless one is revealed to the church, I have a hard time believing that the church, indwelt by the Spirit, is the restrainer. In fact Jesus asked a retorical question: "never the less when the Son of Man cometh will he find faith on the earth?" Most of the church will experience a great falling away. They will be so anemic (lack of faith) that they will not be able to restrain the antichrist. This leads me to the conclusion that the restrainer is another personage.
When does the restrainer cease to restrain?
6   And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7   For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8   And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
According to this, the restrainer ceases to restrain at the time the wicked one is revealed. But when is that? It is when he "opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." But when is that? It is "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place," But when is that? It's when "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
So in the middle of Daniels' 70th week, the lawsless one will be revealed to the Church (and to Israel for that matter).
But who is the restainer. My theory is Michael the Archangel. The middle of the 70th week gives us a clue as to why we can believe that it is Michael. Look at Daniel 12.
1   And at that time shall Michael stand up ["stand up" can mean "stand still"], the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Compare with Mathew 24.
15   When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
21   For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Notice the phrases "time of trouble" in Daniel, and "great tribulation" in Matthew. Notice that these two phrases are followed by similar words.

"such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" and
"such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"
These two phrases identify the time right after the middle of Daniels' 70th week. Also it is the time when Michael stands up and ceases to fight. Standing up in the Hebrew can also mean to stand still, such as the Jordon river standing still in a heap. Or the people standing still in the Jordan river. The word for "stand still" is "amad." Check out strong's concordance and see that it can mean "stand still" or "cease." Look for other usages of the word amad.
That is my non-dogmatic theory.

asaph

have no idea who the restrainer is


does this mean that the holy spirit will be removed from the earth altogether or that The Holy Spirit will certainly be present throughout the universe; but the work of the Holy Spirit effected through the church saints will have been removed. The restraint on civil conduct will have been removed and the world will become even more evil.

I believe Michael the Archangel to be the restrainer. There is, substantial evidence to identify the restrainer. He who restrains until "he be taken out of the way" is the archangel Michael. The following evidence will substantiate that fact.

(1) The archangel Michael has long been recognized by both Jewish and Christhian scholars as having a special guardian relationship to Israel ( Dan. 10:12-13). In relation to Israel, he is called "Michael, your prince" (Dan.10:21). His name means Who is like God? almost as if in cintrast to Satan who desires to be "like the Most High" )Isa. 14:14). Daniel is told that Michael is "the great prince who standteth [present continuous tense; that is , he continues to stand] for the children of thy people" (Dan. 12:1).

(2) Revelation 12 describes a war that occurs in heaven. The time for that conflict can be pinpointed at precisely the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel ( Rev. 12:6, 13-14).

(3) Speaking of this one who will hinder the Antichrist, Paul said, "only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way" (2Thess. 2:7). The word hindereth means to hold down, and the phrase taken out of the way means to step aside. Therefore, the one who had the job of hindering the Antichrist will step aside; that is, he will no longer be a restraint between the Antichrist and those the Antichrist is persecuting.

(4) The Bible is explicit that the archangel Michael is the personage who will step aside. Daniel records that event this way: "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince who standeth for the children of thy people, and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time" ( Dan.12:1).
It is important to note when this event occurs. The preceding berse says, "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious hoy mountain" (Dan. 11:45). This can only refer to the Antichrist, who will establish his headquarters between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea on the glorious mountain- Jerusalem. This occurs in the middle of the seventieth week in connection with his desecration of the temple and erection of a statue of himself.
Further, Daniel has already said that Michael will stand up during " a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time." The unprecedented time of trouble can only refer to the Great Tribulation. It is at that time tant the archangel Michael will stand up.

(5) That special guardian relationship which Michael has with Israel is again underscored in a sometimes obsure comment made by Jude, the half brother of the Lord. He wrote, "Yet Michael, the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses" (Jude9).

Some clear facts begin to emerge.
a. The archangel Michael has a special guardian relationship to Israel. He has fought on her behalf in the past (Dan. 10:13,21;12:1; Jude9).

b. In the middle of the seventieth week of Daniel (the Tribulation period), there will be war in heaven. Satan and his fallen angels will be defeated by Michael and the faithful angels (Rev. 12:1), and, knowing that he has a short period of time (three and one half years), he will seek to persecute the woman (Israel) who gave physical birth to the man child (Christ, Rev.12:13). To that end, Satan will personally empower the Antichrist. The Antichrist will erect an image of himself in the temple at Jerusalem and demand that the Jews bow down to this image and worship. That event, three and one-half years into the seventieth week of Daniel, commences " the time of Jacob's trouble," or the Great Tribulation.

c. And what of Michael, the guardian and protector of Israel? What action will he take on this occasion? The apostle Paul is precise in giving an answer, and there can be no doubt that he has Daniel 12 in mind (that is, the Old Testament text which describes the same event Paul is discussing): For the mystery of iniquity doth already work (that is , the spirit of Antichrist was already present, 1 john 4:3); only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder ( that is, Michael, who restrains the power of Satan in regard to Israel, will continue to do so ) until he be taken out of the way. (2 Thess. 2:7)
The archangel Michael will step aside, he will desist from helping Israel. That is why this period is called " the time of Jacob's trouble." That is what Daniel recorded Michael would do (Dan 12:1), and that is precisely what Paul affirmed (2 Thess. 2:7). When that occurs, " then shall that wicked one [Antichrist] be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming (2Thess. 2:. That destruction will occur during the Day of the Lord. The Antichrist's coming, working, and power are detailed by Paul: "Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan [ because Satan, expelled from heaven and no longer hindered by Michael , is energizing him] with all power and signs and lying wonders" (2Thess. 2:9). The explanation for Michael's inactivity on behalf of Israel- his desisting, his stepping aside-is then explained. Since Israel rejected her true Christ and refused God's truth, God will send on them strong delusion so that they will believe the lie and accept the false Christ. 2 Thess 2:10-12
The strong delusion comes from God. It is his purifying judgment on Israel. That is why Michael will no longer hinder or hold down the wicked one; he will step aside; that is, from between Israel and Satan. The strong delusion sent by God is both a punishment for sin and a moral consequence of their rejection of the truth.
The word of God teaches that the restrainer is the archangel Michael, a faithful messenger and servant of God.
The restrainer is not taken out of the world; he simply ceases restraining. the restrainer does not cease his activity at the beginning of the seventieth week but at the midpoint.
This was taken from the book The Pre-Wrath Rapture ot the Church

Thanks Drake, for taking the time to share that.

asaph

asaph, are you pre-wrath?

Asaph, don't let the name fool you, I am a girl ;) Drake is the name of my dog.
I am pre-wrath also, there doesn't seem to be a lot of us around or I have been going to the wrong places ???

I am pre-wrath  ;D

Hi All

I to, am convinced the Michael is the restrainer in the spiritual realm. All of the kingdoms described in Daniel were of satan and operating in the auspices of one of his fallen angels. They all came to power as each restrainer was taken away in the heavenlies. They then had earthly kingdoms (ie. the visible kingdoms of Babylon, Greece, Rome etc).

As the Pale Horse (ie. antichrist) gets ready to ride God will allow Michael to defeat Satan in the heavenlies and he will be cast to earth to set up his visible kingdom.

The USA as one of the heads of the beast (ie. system of world affairs) will, in the very near future, recieve a "seemingly fatal wound". The earthy manifestation of the restrainer is the USA and when we get the wound---the Pale Horse will ride.

uzzia

Birth pangs

Jer 49:23  Concerning Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad: for they have heard evil tidings: they are fainthearted; [there is] sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.

Luk 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

_______________________________

Jer 49:24  Damascus is waxed feeble, [and] turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on [her]: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.

Jer 50:43  The king of Babylon hath heard the report of them, and his hands waxed feeble: anguish took hold of him, [and] pangs as of a woman in travail.

_______________________________

Birth pangs used as a sign of the removal of the restrainer ?

Jhn 16:21  A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
John 16:21 talks about a woman in travail as a parable for the resurrection & ascention of Christ and the coming of the HG into this world at the the day of pentecost.
Yet this parable is also used in these days as in :
Mat 24:8  All these [are] the beginning of sorrows. ( or pangs)

The birth pang deals with a major shift in the spiritual realm that also has major reflections into the physical world, insomuch that the non-believer experiences what's written in Luke 21:25
Luk 21:25b  [...] and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work:
only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

1Tes5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
When you compare 1Tes5:3 with the as-a-woman-in-travail in Jer 50:43 & Jer 49:23 one could conclude that the destruction is brought by a destroyer, whilst talking about peace-and-safety:

Dan 8:25   And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many:  [...]
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen,
and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

I would like to point out that when Daniel 11:40/45 speaks about the current tour that GWB is doing, that Dan 12:1 is a followup of these events, and it is widely understood that Dan12:1 marks the start of the 70th week of Daniel, that after the fullfillment of Dan 11:44/45 the 70th week of Daniel will start. (!) The 70th week is widely known for the apperance of the 'so-called man-of-sin' making a peace treaty with the Israelites, and corfirming it for half the week (1260 days)

But as Dan 12:1 speaks also a time when:
Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The last portion talks again about "thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" (of life) That portion links directly to 1 Tes5:3 : "then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

So who will escape ? ALL THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK

Oops, sorry Drake ;D
Pre-wrath seems to make the most sense scripturally. I have read several books supporting the pwr and have checked a few websites as well. The bible does seem to support this view.

asaph

asaph

I consider myself post-trib; meaning I believe the rapture will occur at the 7th (ie. last) trumpet. This is, of course before the 7 vials are poured (ie. God's wrath)---so I guess that is sort of pre-wrath. My scripture references would be Matthew 24, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, Revelation 11 and 14.


I am just wondering in your pre-wrath thinking where the rapture occurs. I guess I really don't understand the pre-wrath position since we may have the same views with different names. I do believe we are not subject to God's wrath.

uzzia

Pre Trib is like firing all your good personel just before you enter the hard days where there is a lot of work to do.

Post wrath is letting al the good personel burn up after they did a good thing unto you.

Post Trib, pre wrath is like leaving a sinking ship after some very good effords to get some people into the gosple.

So without some big theological high-and-dry mish-mash I am able to explain this in biblical laymen terms.....  
What do you think that means...? I think that means i'm on the right track here.

Anyone want to hear my theological build-up for this, just scroll three posts higher :) i'll be happy to edify it ....

uzzia,
Here are some charts telling the pre wrath position:
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0019.html

Correct me if I am wrong but post and pre-wrath agree on three main points.
1 We hold to the Church's exemption from the eschatological wrath of God.
2 We both believe the Seventieth Week of Daniel will evidence both the wrath of God and the wrath of Antichrist.
3 We also agree that the eschatological Day of the Lord and "the great tribulation" do not cover the same time period during the second half of Daniel's Seventieth Week, but the "day of God's wrath" follows the time of Antichrist's tribulation.
The pre wrath view teaches that the rapture takes place sometime after mid week when the tribulation by anti christ will be cut short after the 6th seal is opened but before the first trumpet is blown. There is no date setting in this view, but there is a loose time frame.
I recommend you read the article Legs to stand onat this link:
http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0004.html

asaph

Hi, John here:
Try using God's complete  WORD. (2 Tim. 3:16)
If you can have real 'BELIEF' in Christs Word? (remember, it was He who asked that when He comes the SECOND time, If He would find Faith of earth? Belief!)

It was the Holy Spirit that INSPIRED these two verses found in Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 of the Master's Word! If one REALLY BELIEVES IN JESUS these two verses will clear up much of misunderstanding of promises alone. (for starters)

Just remember that the 'very few' times that these verses do  not apply, we are TOLD. (sin will not arise a DECOND time, sunshine on the just & unjust alike, & the Rainbow in the sky! No repeated history on these)

Check the creation week & the 7th. day Sabbath with 1000 yrs. a day? Earth with a 1000 yr. Sabbath? What was earth like before creation? Read Gen. of nothingless, & void. Then check Jer. 4:23-27? ("I beheld the earth ...")

And verse 27? 'Yet will I not make a full end.'?? Where are the saved in the FIRST RESURECTION? And the dead are ALL DEAD during this 1000 year period of time. (see 2 Peter 3:10-12's DAY OF THE LORD) ALL THE WICKED ARE D-E-A-D! And 's'atan & his henchmen? They are once again, the 'second time', chained by the history repeated REQUIRED TRUTH set of circumstances of God!

Who was occupying earth before creation? (before man was here) Who will be here during the 1000 yrs. that is in BETWEEN the First & the Second resurection? Yes, the earth's Sabbath.

And the Church? So went Israel of old, so goes the 'professed' believers of today. God SAID SO! (the Eccl. verses. If one is a true believer, huh? (see 1 Jn. 4:6)

This below is part of your quote:

"Correct me if I am wrong ..."  :'( (zapped for the bottom line)

--John