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I was just noting this earlier, under "Homosexual marriages; Prophecy...":


onestarfisher
Newbie

Posts: 4
    Re:Homosexual marriages
« Reply #59 on: February 15, 2004, 11:13:33 PM »    

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I wanted your opinion on something (the Christians only, please!) I posted the following message the other day under Debate, but I think I should have put it here. I want to know what you think? (about what I did below) Is it right? Is it wrong? We're supposed to declare the truth, but how do you do that without "condemning?" And what is the difference between preacing righteousness, as they say Noah did, and exhorting against the evils of the day - and condemnation? I posted the suggestion below in another discussion board, and the homosexuals who wanted to cling to their sin jumped all over me....they clearly want to justify homosexuality, and they kept the few Christians in there busy.....what do you think?

"This is my first post. I have a suggestion. Especially now that the issue has really heated up in Massachusetts. I live in Arizona and this is what I have been doing the last few days….I took a white or light colored T shirt, old or new doesn’t matter, and some permanent makers. You can even buy markers for fabric at Walmart but any permanent will do. Put wax paper inside the shirt while you write.

On the front of the shirt, I printed in giant letters HOMOSEXUALITY  IS  A  SIN  Underneath that I put, Choose Life, Repent, Change and God Loves You in various places.
On the back of the shirt I wrote GAY ‘MARRIAGE’ WILL NEVER BE LEGAL IN GOD’S EYES  -  NEVER  EVER        WAKE  UP
I varied the sizes of the lettering for effect and  colored in some of the letters in the colors of the rainbow and drew a couple of those on there as well.

Then I wore my shirt to some busy places. and into busy stores (without a coat over it!) From people’s response so far, I would say it is a success. Jaws drop. Or people whisper – or ignore. I mean, isn’t it time we spoke up? I’m ready to discuss it with them, though, because I’m no better than they are. We are all sinners who need a savior.

I want to encourage you to go BE  SALT and light in the world. Don’t stay silent. Tell other people, especially people in Massachusetts. Post your successes stories…..

I want to encourage others to try this. There's really nothing store owners or anyone can do because it isn't a placard - it's a t shirt.
And, your topic could be anything, not necessarily this one."

I'm still rethinking it. I thought I would get into more conversations with people, but most people were shocked speechless and most averted their eyes. I saw mouths drop to knees. I don't know that I looked loving, although I was trying to. I have to admit, marching into the Starbucks in the heart of a town run by a gay mayor during the morning rush and only a couple of blocks from City Hall was exhilarating.

Also walked down the street facing traffic, because you can read the printing at least 20 to 40 feet away. After that, it was to the public library. Walked right past 2 cops inside, who never would have let me in with a sign that size. Then off to a busy restaurant where you have to walk around to get to the buffet. The a store with several homosexual employees - they were taking turns walking by to look at the front and back of the shirt. One of the guys asked me about it and I did get a chance to witness a little to him and give him a tract.

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 11:25:52 PM by onestarfisher »
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What do you think?


 

Not something that I would do.

Firstly because it would give offence, which we are not to do, scripture says.

And secondly because I support civil gay marriages anyway.

Matthew 5

5:11Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

5:12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

5:13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

I think our country has lost its saltiness, because the left's primary tactic in removing obstacles from is to shame others who don't agree with them, even though they are in the wrong. And I think we take our orders from God.

Broken, you make a good point about not wanting to offend, and in the right circumstances, this is often a good way to go. I guess what I would add is, that the truth offends. And we can't stop telling the truth to people because htey are offended, because then they cannot be saved. Even Jesus called the pharisees a brood of vipers. I'm not recommending we do that to gay people, because I think the right way to help them is to get to the root of the problem and deal with the deceptions and emotional scars that are causing them to have such an abhorrence for one of the most basic elements of their personal identity.

I agree with you that many times graciousness is the way to go. In the face of obstinance, however, I think onestarfisher's approach is often necessary.

Yes, Jesus said, "...I came not to condemn the world..." (John 3:17)...


Thank you, Whitehorse... :)


Ahem, Broken.....  :-\


What do you think about that, Broken--the persecution part, that Jesus' mentions there.  Is that being "paranoid"?


I think our country has lost its saltiness,   So well said.

What I was actually getting at, but didn't explain properly, is that we are not to offend the world. Those who are not Christian. If you look through Paul's letters, you see him often saying; be respectable, do not make the world think of you as either a threat or completely insane because that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. It means no one will listen to the message for looking at the incidentals - how you look and act. That is what rudeness does - people become so inflamed by how you act towards them that they wouldn't dream of having anything to do with anything about you. Totally counter-productive. Fred Phelps (of GodHatesFags fame) has made so many people think that all Christians are totally hateful, insensitive hypocrites - which is precisely why we are not to offend.
Of course some things will offend people - but there are ways and ways to say your message. Its the difference between having a T-shirt with "God hates you" on it, or, like someone I once knew, reciting lewd verses about homosexuality and saying something with kindness.

In reference to your point about basically hammering the point home with more offensive methods if people are "obstinate", I disagree with you. People have the right to be obstinate. If they do not want to accept their behaviour as sin the Bible says not to keep on and on banging on at them about it. It says to leave it be. You've told them, they won't listen - leave it. It does no good and will probably entrench people in their positions further.

Symphony,


No, I don't think Jesus was paranoid. But then, Jesus was not a modern day American Christian  ;D  He was not perversely keen on the idea of martyrdom and persecution. He did not practically run around shouting "persecute me, persecute me!" getting some sort of kick or spiritual "reward" out of it. What he said was: you may be persecuted (MAY BE!) and if so, take heart. What he did not say was: seek out persecution, covet it, pleasure yourself in it, because it is good.

One is biblical, the other is perverse and smacks of masochism.

(http://www.oz.net/~daveb/images/Andy_e223.jpg)

Well, if the world has the right to be obstinate, even more do we, for we have the truth; moreover, stakes are high. The stakes are the souls of those we are called to reach. Sure, God is sovereign and everything ultimately pans out the way He wants, but that does not lessen our responsibility. I'm just wondering why you would support gay marriage. The stakes for that are eternal, and it corrupts the entire nation. Just look at how it brought judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah.

I'm not saying we should, in order to not give offence, give up our beliefs. Of course not! Just, there comes a point when you have to leave someone alone - shake the dust off your feet and leave them. Perhaps you planted a seed, perhaps not, but you told them, and they can reflect and make their own decision.


I do not believe Christians have any business getting involved in political activism. We pray for our political leaders, we obey the laws of our countries - and thats it. We are not living in a theocracy nor should we wish to do so. Our form of political activism should be a passive one, from the ground up - from our lives and the way we live them rather than trying to regulate the lives of others.
The Bible does not tell us that we should force unbelievers to live the way we do.

Thinking in terms of the world, and NOT of how the church should behave in itself - I support gay marriages just because the state, mine and yours, claims to support equal rights for all. If it does that, it must include homosexuals, who are given equal rights in a number of things and that should be widened to include marriages. That is speaking secularly.

The above prayer is from a Catholic website.  I'm not Catholic - but it doesn't matter to me - loving Jesus, praying to Jesus, and having courage to do HIS will and ask for HIS guidance as we do it, should control our every decision.

I appreciate courage in HIM in the everyday decisions we make to spread the Word, as commanded by Him.  We can only spread His Word through boldness.

I forgot  i should not reply to baby killers

Entirely Old Testament.

God no longer requires us to set up a theocratic state.

"My Kingdom is NOT of this world".

But we should live (according to the NT) as if we are a member of a theocratic state.  (A state ruled by HIM.) ;D

We should live under the theocratic rule of God ("the Kingdom of God is within you"). We, not everyone else. Thats the point I was making :)

Symp,

 Some folks have an idea that God is loving like a big teddy bear all the time...  Setting back and doing nothing is not a good thing. I have watched and heard so called christians pander to wiht ever is going on  ...  after al we cant  witness is we are not door mats..


Matt 10:33-35... The words of the LORD

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
KJV
 

Denying God and not participating in worldly politics are two entirely different things.

We are not part of the world, but are citizens of heaven. We obey the earthly authorities - but our King is God.

I just don't see the justification for political activities in the New Testament. Not the campaigning against this law and that law - the Apostles never tried to change the secular laws, and neither did Jesus. They could have tried - they had influential people among the earliest Christians, Caesar's household for one. Yet they did not.

Thats really my point.

Denying God and not participating in worldly politics are two entirely different things.

We are not part of the world, but are citizens of heaven. We obey the earthly authorities - but our King is God.

I just don't see the justification for political activities in the New Testament. Not the campaigning against this law and that law - the Apostles never tried to change the secular laws, and neither did Jesus. They could have tried - they had influential people among the earliest Christians, Caesar's household for one. Yet they did not.

Thats really my point


What if you do it, tho--that is, like what onestar, in the original post here, is doing--for another reason than to "be involved policially"??

Like, isn't the whole point of pointing out wrongness, for instance, done so in order to avert the onlooker from coming damnation, judgement, hell?

onestar isn't doing it to be political?  

"And convince some, who doubt; save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."  Jude 23

Isn't what onestar is demonstrating a labor of love??

It is the wrong ground to fight on.

Civil gay marriages are completely irrelvant to us. If we protest them, the only message we send out is that we are interested in bringing about a theocracy or dictatorship along Christian lines. That makes even those who might be friendly to Christianity shy away. Choosing to fight on a strictly political/state issue is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.

It may be done with the best of motives, or it may be done with the worst: but it is still counterproductive and not mandated by the Bible.

 Symp,


Many "christians' today  withdraw because they are cowards They refuse to stand timmid of mind and spirit. I say hats off to you and the others who no matter how samll or large are willing to stand.
Using any of the benefits of some one else’s political involvement, while saying “ I cant get involved is hypocritical.

On the contrary, I was extremely politically active for a time myself. I have connections you could only dream of, baby. I chose to withdraw from the political arena because it is incompatible with faith.

It is so easy to get involved in politics. It is the lazy man's way out. You never get your hands dirty. You may do nothing for the Kingdom either but, hey, you get to feel self-righteous so that does not matter. lol. Check your scriptures, what does God command us do?

Not to be argumentative, BUT, it is not the wrong grounds to fight on at all. If civil gay marriages have become accepted and acceptable, what will come next? Will they sets their sights on being married in church because they feel they are christian? (that's already happening) Will the law then be formed that churches MUST do so or lose their charters?

One of the bills in Canadian parliament brings into question whether or not the bible will become labelled "hate literature" because it speaks about homosexuality being an abomination unto God. So far, they have assured us that won't happen, but are you going to believe a government who, so far have not kept one single promise?

What grounds, then, should we fight on? At this point, it doesn't seem political at all to me....it's about what's right and what's not (for me)

Sorry, shouldn't have gone off the deep end like that. Somedays, my tongue runs away with my head.

Gracey

Choosing to fight on a strictly political/state issue is the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.


Strictly political.state issue?   ??? ::)


Hmmmm.  Homosexuality?

Yikes.  It's definitely a moral issue.

Or, more accurately, a life/death issue.

Yes, I understand where the gay community is coming from--and society generally, actually.

There "is no sin".  

So it's perfectly understandable that homo'y, too, would not be a sin.

So it's not a life and death issue.

    :-\

Agree Gracey,  

Its a sad day when good men do nothing. I  remember the early days of the Woe v Wade. The lies that were told how abortion would only be use sparingly lielielie. The same here with sinfull so called marriage.

Christians setting back waiting for rapture has not been good for the future generations.

What would you suggest *Good Men* do there Reba..??

:) Pale

I'm wondering where in scripture you're getting this from. Regarding the theocracy, I'm not understanding how you're making the connection between fulfilling The Great Commission and re-establishing a theocracy. How is that removing human, God-appointed leaders from their positions? *shrug* That isn't happening. If you look at Kings and Chronicles, God is assessing each leader, that is, king, according to whether or not he fulfilled His will, or whether he led the nation inot sin and judgment. But if you're thinking that's specific to Israel, there are numerous references to God judging other nations that were not His chosen. Moab, Egypt...it's all in there.

Moreover, we cannot sit by and allow sin to be legalized. If God's Holy Spirit is in us, that Spirit is exactly that-Holy. We become enraged at things that enrage God, and a deep love for what He loves. So we fight sin tooth and nail.

As for offending people, God's number one priority isn't their emotional comfort. Look at all the references to hell in scripture. God doesn't avoid unpleasant truths to avoid alarming us-He tells us the truth, and we do likewise. If someone hardens their heart against our message, it was never in our hands in the beginning. It's the Holy Spirit who does the work. We try to be effective, but the first rule in effectiveness is getting the truth out there in the first place.

Yay, Whitehorse!!   What do you think now, Broken?  Hmmmm?    8)


Reba:  Woe v Wade.    :-X


Ugh--PaleRider!!--


...Oh, PaleRider, I can't Believe You Said That!!??   ???


What about what like onestarfisher, is talkinhg  about here...??


     ???

Then I'll ask again Symphony...What would you suggest *Good Men* do about this situation..?? :) Pale

Amen Whitehorse!

 Pale,

What would i have men to do?

 Prayerfully


Speak up against injustice
   go to courtrooms and stand for the innocent
   raise a clammor when bad guys get offlight
          thinking of the  girl in FLA
   Ya think it might make some changes if the judge saw his courtroom filled with MEN the judge knows dont want the pedifle turned loose... and saw them there again and again...


run for offices
    local school boards
    Town councels
    even union officials


stop hiding
    behind 'teddy bear' love
    behind women
   
Pastors willing to speak out against evil from the pulpit.
       adultry
       abortion
       abuse
       fornacation

         


I am sickened to know the DTS and Woe v Wade came from the same town.

Some small ideas  Pale  but i believe in being active in the place God has placed us.

I'll agree with the most of your statement....Pastoral involvement, Christians in public office..Standing up for the righteous conviction.

I don't quite understand the *Teddy Bear*, or behind women..Issue..:) ......?? Pale

Terrybear love...
 Teddybear love is always soft cuddly what we would call huggable.  God has told us He is a jealous God He gets angry.  A teddybear god would not have sent the five to sodom. Yet God is love...and always Godly

Males will hid behind women saying things like ' its not my place to  speak out on abortion i am male.    a differerent story...  my wife wont let me....

OK...I understand you're meaning now.. :)

Personally,I offer my wife continuous *Teddy Bear* love..LOL!!

I guess your right,*Some Males* will hide behind all manner of obstruction....Female, Employment, Addictions....Etc,Etc..

Thanks for the clarification Reba ;) Pale

Well, "good men and good women" can certainly make a difference.

My letter of complaint against this "defining of marriage" in my province is only one letter....little good it may do. But if every christian who is against this sends in one little letter, each one of those grains of discontent can build into a mountain.

If we only had a "mustard seed" of faith, what could we do with that mountain?

Gracey

Well Gracey....We could move that mountain.... :)

You have a pleasant manner about you. I see no animosity in your words....There is a Great difference in righteous justice and contemptuous disarray...

*Quote*...On the front of the shirt, I printed in giant letters HOMOSEXUALITY  IS  A  SIN  Underneath that I put, Choose Life, Repent, Change and God Loves You in various places.
On the back of the shirt I wrote GAY ‘MARRIAGE’ WILL NEVER BE LEGAL IN GOD’S EYES  -  NEVER  EVER        WAKE  UP
I varied the sizes of the lettering for effect and  colored in some of the letters in the colors of the rainbow and drew a couple of those on there as well.

Then I wore my shirt to some busy places. and into busy stores (without a coat over it!) From people’s response so far, I would say it is a success. Jaws drop...EndQuote*

I see nothing good coming from Wearing a T-Shirt exclaiming our beliefs into a crowd of possible volatile people,*One Way Or The Other*..I believe it would cause more grief than good...Like running up and whacking someone with a bible, IMO it would have a similar reprocusion..Have a Good One..!

My prayers are with you ;) Pale

I'm going to elaborate on this somewhat, as to the aggression factor.. :)

Reba, this is the very first comment you made to me on this board. I came in here speaking of my Chrisitanity, showed a picture of my Home, explaining that I keep it clean as my wife is working and I am off for a cpl of months. I then went into a bit of my music ministry to illustrate a question that Whitehorse had asked me..Etc Etc!!

Again I say to you..You neither welcomed me, nor did you say anything other than this...


Reba..We will know each other by our spirit,works and the fruit we bear by our Lord...

I believe Wisdom and Knowledge to be the best offence toward any unrighteous situation, not aggression..

Thanks Reba :) Pale

Sorry i offended you Pale. I was totally impressed by our home.  Very neat and clean.

Had you greated me as i did you i would have completey understood.   The pictures are there anyone can see the place is neat as a pin.  Maybe it is a touchy subject for you please dont judge the others here by me  most often i am the odd man out.

I never judge anyone, their own actions judge.

Lord Bless Reba....

Nice meeting all of you folks, I'll be leaving now :) Pale

This  MUST be a lie, or you are a very sick person.... no  ones computer desk is this neat.....



Very nice you have children?  

 


Kids and that neat?  whoa  something is amiss.....

Welcome Pale i hope you find your stay here pleasent.  


 

I skipped one is said something about my house being for sale ......  Our more complete exchange is a bit different then you hint at.

Sorry i offended you Pale. I was totally impressed by our home.  Very neat and clean.

Had you greated me as i did you i would have completey understood.  The pictures are there anyone can see the place is neat as a pin.  Maybe it is a touchy subject for you please dont judge the others here by me  most often i am the odd man out.

Very gracious, Reba! I had read the referred to post and I took it to be a joke. Tongue-in-cheek..... Actually, I laughed! ;) So I wouldn't have judged it to be aggressive or unrighteous.... But you showed much character by following up with an apology!



I never judge anyone, their own actions judge.

Lord Bless Reba....

Nice meeting all of you folks, I'll be leaving now  Pale

Sorry you didn't decide to stick around long enough to not judge more after you actually got to know the people here better!

But this is a good point:
I never judge anyone, their own actions judge.
That says a lot  ;)

sincereheart,

Thank you for the kind words. My heart will smile today!

Well, I don't know you nor do I choose to know you. I've seen enough here that discernment be my guide.

I would expect being called a Liar or Mentally Ill in a secular forum, yet hardly the type of Welcome I would expect from a Christian Forum!

Sincere Heart, you may coat the situation with any manner of *Joke/Fun* that you like, hardly the type of salutation I would want anyone I know to project......But!!...That's you're perogative :)

Lord Bless :) Pale

PS...Quite possibly Reba has learned a lesson from this, for the next New Member that dawns this site...All we can do is hope ;)

You know Pale..... It's a strange thing to walk into someone's home and try to 'get' what's going on. Most will try to welcome you by jumping right in and being playful, the way that had been; as if you're a member of the family. But if you're too quick to jump to conclusions (we don't want to say 'judging', now do we?) then you might just jump to the wrong conclusion.  :) Personally, I prefer when I'm not treated as a 'guest'....


PS...Quite possibly Reba has learned a lesson from this, for the next New Member that dawns this site...All we can do is hope

Let's hope that YOU have learned something! So as you jump from site to site we can hope that YOU learn to take enough time to get to know posters before YOU jump to a conclusion (i.e. judge). Don't walk into another's home and try to tell them how you should be welcomed!

But then again, that's not what's really bothering you, is it? I'd take a guess that it has to do with the general consensus on something else.... :-X

Well your Consensus would be part of your mindset I suggest, whatever that may be :)

Again I say, being called a Liar or Crazy as a first time welcoming is not acceptable behaviour...I would not advise my Children to do it, nor do I advise others to do it, yet it seems by your non-chalante' attitude towards the matter that you might and do share this type of advice...*Quite Obviously*..

I have learned nothing from this incident that I do not already know....I pray you have learned also, *This Manner Of Speech and Welcome* is not an acceptable comment for any Christian to offer...If you believe it is, as I said before *That Is Your Peorgative*...Not The Lords Works ;) Pale

Not The Lords Works

You may want to double check that!  ;)

Reba apologized to you.  



All the other little jabs and jibes you've taken at me have probably scarred me for life; but I'll try to get by!  ;)

No little Jabs or Jibes there Sincere Heart...

You would have shown wisdom in just replying the *Fact* that the welcome which I received is not one that is accustomed to Christian Offering...Instead you seem to just abuse the situation by showing your lack of knowledge...

Please continue though, there are a few interested parties here that are as eager as myself to see what might come out of your thoughts next...

The situation as such, should never have happened. Apologizing to me or anyone who might have to feel that the issue is acceptable is not the point here..The point is, I'm very certain Reba will with caution and insight approach the next newcomer be that Aged or Not So Aged Christian..

Do yourself a favor here Sincere, don't type anymore candy coating, you're embarrassing yourself...As for me, it's not that important, once this issue is completed, as I said, I'll be leaving  :) Pale

Think maybe getting back on topic is a good idea?   :)

Mhm! Agreed!  :)

Thank you, reba... :)

Pale; I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....

Back to topic (with my apologies for the derailment):

I think these have valid points:

Matt 10:32-36

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
KJV


I hope i am Christian enough to offend someone.

"On the front of the shirt, I printed in giant letters HOMOSEXUALITY  IS  A  SIN  Underneath that I put, Choose Life, Repent, Change and God Loves You in various places.
On the back of the shirt I wrote GAY ‘MARRIAGE’ WILL NEVER BE LEGAL IN GOD’S EYES  -  NEVER  EVER        WAKE  UP"

CHEERS!

There was not a single offensive thing to be found in onestarfisher`s story. No "ungodly" act was conveyed with the shirts message, which by the way is TRUTH. Anyone suggesting there is something offensive here is trying to stuff  God into thier little box of of personal beliefs.

I have to wonder what some might have said to this little event that didnt even involve  a shirt?:

Isa 20:2  At the same time spake the LORD by Isaiah the son of Amoz, saying, Go and loose the sackcloth from off thy loins, and put off thy shoe from thy foot. And he did so, walking naked and barefoot.
Isa 20:3  And the LORD said, Like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years [for] a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia;

I wish I had a great big jaw dropping face to put there, to portray what some christians faces would look like!

If God tells me to write something on a shirt, you can be sure I wont be seeking the approval of saints or sinners for having done it.

Some sow the seed, some prefer to stand back and tell them how to sow, who pray tell are WE with all our prim and proper notions of what is acceptable to GOD, to say we dont approve?

A loud and hearty amen to that. Everyone thought Noah was insane.