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Colossians 3:8-11

“The Gates of Hell”

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build
my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”   Matthew 16:18

   These are the words that Jesus spoke to Peter after he confessed in verse 16 that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God.  This is just one little sentence spoken by Jesus, yet it speaks volumes about the church.  As we study God’s Word, we learn that the church is not buildings made up of brick and mortar, wood and nails, but by individuals who have placed their trust in Jesus for the salvation of their souls.  These individuals are not called Christians because of where they attend, but because they have put their trust in Christ and follow Him.
   One of the first things a careful student of the Bible will observe is that the church was not in existence at the time Jesus spoke these words.  Notice that Jesus said, “I will build my church”.  He is talking future tense here.  This would not make sense if the church was already in existence.  Also, we see that the church belongs to the Lord Jesus, He refers to it as, “my church”.  The  church doesn’t belong to any individual, family or group, no matter how important or famous or rich they may be. One can own a building or a piece of land, but not a church. The church belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ, because it was purchased with His very own blood (Acts 20:28).  We also learn that the Lord Jesus is the master builder of the church; He said “I will build my church”.  It is the Lord who adds to the church; we may co-labor with the Him, but it is the Lord who gives the increase  (Acts 2:47, 1 Cor. 3:6-7).
   As you have already seen, with just five words the Lord has taught us many wonderful things concerning the church.  Yet, I believe one of the priceless truths for the believer is to be found in the remaining part of the verse, “and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”.  The truth that is taught here is most precious because it clearly declares the security of salvation that the one who believes has.  There are many today that teach that a person can be saved and yet somehow afterwards lose his salvation.  Some say that a person can lose their salvation by his own will, saying he no longer wishes to be saved, others teach that a person can lose his salvation by willful sin.
   Those that think that a true believer could lose his salvation for whatever reason would have difficultly reconciling their belief with this verse.  You see, if a person could lose their salvation it would make Jesus out to be a liar in this verse, since the gates of hell would in fact prevail against the church.  It would be helpful to understand what Jesus was talking about when He spoke of the gates of hell.  Death and the grave throughout the scriptures is called hell or hades.  Acts 2:26-31 is a good example of this when speaking about the Lord Jesus.

   “Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption”.

   In Luke 16:19-31 we read about the rich man and Lazarus.  In verse 22 we read “the rich man also died, and was buried;  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments”.  In this passage we learn that the rich man’s body was buried in a grave yet his soul was being tormented in hell.  Hell, then, is the place for those who die in their sins, those that never called on the name of the Lord for salvation (Rom. 10:9-13).  It is a place of great unrelenting torment and eternal suffering (Rev. 14:9-11 20:10-15)
   The gates of hell open to receive the dead but they never open to let the dead escape. This is a sobering thought. Friend, if you die in this life without Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior your dwelling place will be in the torments and sufferings of hell where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.  There is no escape from that place.  The only time death and hell will give up the dead is when the dead are judged and thrown into the lake of fire along with death and hell (Rev. 20:13-15).  This is the wrath of God that all men deserve because of their rebellion and sin against Him.  Yet, because of His great love for us, God sent His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ to die in our place.  God poured out His wrath on His own Son, the divine Substitute, so that those who place their trust in Jesus as Lord and Savior would never see the wrath of God which is the second death.  Instead of wrath, God gives eternal life to those that trust in His Son (John 3:16, 5:24, 10:27-30).  They will never see the second death.  This is why I say that those that believe that you can lose this great salvation would have to make Jesus out to be a liar when He said, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”  You see, if even one individual Christian (Remember that the church is made up of individuals that place their trust in the Lord Jesus) could lose his salvation and end up behind the gates of hell, then the gates of hell would in fact have prevailed against the church.  Death would still have its sting and the grave would still have its victory.  The apostle Paul would not have been able to declare these words in 1 Corinthians 15:54-57:

   “So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?  The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.  But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Visit our web site for more articles and information at  http://home.wmis.net/~pilgrim

Pilgrim

Eternal Life

Hebrews 6:4 “For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,  5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,  6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.”

The book of Hebrews is a contrast between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. To properly understand the book of Hebrews this must be kept in mind. One of the main keywords in Hebrews is “better” which is used in reference to the New Covenant. The writer of Hebrew is dealing with converts under the New Covenant who are going back to the things of the old covenant for whatever reason. There are about five different explanations for the five warning passages in Hebrews such as the verses above. Some teach that this is speaking about a false professor, one who came close to being saved even partaking of spiritual things. I reject this explanation because the writer uses the strongest possible words to describe one who is truly a Christian. Also in chapter 10 we read:

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

Notice that the person mentioned here cannot be a false professor because verse 29 says he was sanctified by the blood of the covenant or in other words he was set apart by the blood of Jesus. This cannot happen to anyone but a child of God. The unsaved are not sanctified by the blood of Jesus.

Another very popular explanation for these passages is that the person was truly a child of God but lost his salvation. I reject this explanation as well. First, there are to many Scriptures that teach that a child of God is granted eternal life at his conversion in Christ. If a person could lose their salvation then we have to redefine many words. For example “forever” would not mean forever, “eternal” would not mean eternal, “everlasting” would not mean everlasting, “never perish” would not mean never perish. Now if we change the meanings for these words in relation to salvation then we ought to be honest with ourselves and apply the same meaning wherever we see the words. So when Scripture teach that those who are thrown into the lake of fire and the smoke of their burning ascendeth forever then we must conclude that this might not br forever seeing the same word is used in relation to salvation. Look at the problems you would have if you are consistent in applying the same definitions to word concerning other issues as you do concerning salvation. Below is a small sample.  

Rom. 16:26 “But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God.”

If salvation is not everlasting then a honest person would have to ask is God everlasting seeing the same word is used to describe both.

2 Cor. 9:9 “(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”

If salvation is not forever how can God’s righteousness be forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Rev 4:9 “And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever , and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”

If salvation is not forever then does the Lord live forever seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Hebrews 9:12 “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].”

Was it eternal redemption or was is temporary in some cases?

Heb. 10:14 “For  by one offering he hath perfected  for ever them that are sanctified.  15  [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:  for after that he had said before,  16  This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  18  Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin”

Did the Lord perfect forever those that are sanctified or in some cases only temporary?  

Rev. 1:6 “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever . Amen”

If salvation is not forever then is the Lord’s glory and dominion for ever and ever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:41 “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

If salvation is not forever then is the fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?

Matt. 25:46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal”

If salvation is not forever then is the everlasting punishment of unbelievers forever, seeing the same words are used to describe both?
Continued

Continued
2 Thess. 1:9 “Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

Jude 1:7 “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

Jude 1:13 “Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.”
 
Mark 3:29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal  damnation:”

I hope you can see the danger in redefining words with set meanings in order to accommodate a doctrine. This boils down to letting your doctrine define the Word of God instead of letting the Word of God define your doctrine. Here are the set meaning of some of the words, what right do we have in redefining them?

Forever
165 aion {ahee-ohn'}
from the same as 104; TDNT - 1:197,31; n m
AV - ever 71, world 38, never + 3364 + 1519 + 3588 6, evermore 4,
age 2, eternal 2, misc 5; 128
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

Eternal life, Everlasting
166 aionios {ahee-o'-nee-os}
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2,
since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and
always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Dwelleth
3306 meno {men'-o}
a root word; TDNT - 4:574,581; v
AV - abide 61, remain 16, dwell 15, continue 11, tarry 9, endure 3,
misc 5; 120
1) to remain, abide
1a) in reference to place
1a1) to sojourn, tarry
1a2) not to depart
1a2a) to continue to be present
1a2b) to be held, kept, continually
1b) in reference to time
1b1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
1b1a) of persons, to survive, live
1c) in reference to state or condition
1c1) to remain as one, not to become another or different
2) to wait for, await one

Everlasting
126 aidios {ah-id'-ee-os}
from 104; TDNT - 1:168,25; adj
AV - eternal 1, everlasting 1; 2
1) eternal, everlasting
For Synonyms see entry 5801

Perish
622 apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
from 575 and the base of 3639; TDNT - 1:394,67; v
AV - perish 33, destroy 26, lose 22, be lost 5, lost 4, misc 2; 92
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose    

that never shall be quenched
BDB/Thayers # 762
762 asbestos as'-bes-tos}
from 1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of 4570;; adj
AV - unquenchable 2, never shall be quenched 2; 4
1) unquenched, unquenchable
1a) of eternal hell fire to punish the damned
Another explanation which I believe is the correct one is that the writer of Hebrews is using a hypothetical situation to make a point. This is the only explanation that I am aware of the does not violate other Scriptures. The writer of Hebrews is concerned that some are turning back to the Old Covenant ways so he sets out to prove how foolish this is in light of how much better the New Covenant is. His argument would amount to something like this for Hebrews 6:4-6 (the verses at the top of this post).

If it were possible for someone who is truly saved (verses 4-5) to fall away and abandon the salvation he has received by the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus (verse 6). It would be impossible for him to be renewed to repentance (salvation) because in order for him to be renewed he would have to crucify the Son of God again, and put him to an open shame which will never happen (verse 6). The point being that outside of the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus in the New Covenant there is no salvation.

I believe this explains Hebrews 10 as well.

Hebrews 10:26 “ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,  27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.  28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:  29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?”

The argument is something like this. If it were possible for a true Christian to sin willfully after receiving the gospel truth by rejecting it, there would be no hope of him ever getting saved again. The only thing awaiting him is the fiery indignation of God seeing that he has trodden under foot the Lord Jesus and counted His blood by which he was saved an unholy thing. The only way of salvation is through the blood of Jesus and if a Christian could reject that there is no hope for him seeing he rejected the only thing that could save his soul.

The hypothetical is the only way I know of that allows these verses to fall in perfect harmony with the rest of Scriptures. I hope this may help some. May God open all of our eyes of understanding.

Pilgrim

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim,

I enjoyed your posts. I am studying the same subject right now. I'll post a couple more verses that many people use trying to prove "Once Saved, Not Always Saved". I firmly believe that Salvation is Eternal and can't be lost.

Amen Pilgrim

DITTO  ;D

Hi blackeyedpeas, suzie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe that one can lose their salvation also believe a gospel of salvation by works. Many of them will deny this but no matter which way you look at their doctrine it is up to the individual to live in such a way as not to lose their salvation. Therefore their salvation is based in their own works, which is condemned through out the Bible.

Eph.2:8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.  10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

We are saved by grace through faith not by our own filthy works of righteousness. Good works are a result of salvation while salvation is never a result of our own works. After one has been saved by God’s grace their life will reflect the salvation they received by the good works that God will do through them.

Pilgrim

Hi Pilgrim

DITTO  ;D

"our own filthy works of righteousness".      ???

How can such be? If it is God's righteousness which is the only righteousness there is. How can such be filthy? If it is God's righteousness, how can it be our own? How can any works of righteousness through faith be filthy?

I doubt that a christian that believes they are saved but can
turn from God and is sincerely trying to live a true Christian life is doing filthy works of righteousness. But is probably more trying to live Godly in His righteousness as all Christians should be doing.

 ??? ???

Hi ollie,

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Our own attempts at being righteous by our own conduct is as filthy rages before God as God’s Word declare in Isaiah 64.


Is. 64:6 “But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

God bless,
Pilgrim

Hi,
 Thanks for your response and giving  those bible verses.

John here:
Eternal security you say? Before one could believe you, perhaps you need to prove [your] eternal security? Personally I don't like to get into peoples mind. But rather than to continue on in disagreement of this non/sense of God creating robots that cannot think for themselves, that so far are seen in your POSTINGS only, perhaps you can tell us of your 'mental state'? In this way you will be judging yourself, huh? Are you ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? Check out the last few verses of Rev.'s book!

*Remember:
First, one HAS GOT TO BE CONVERTED, *BORN AGAIN! And HOW CAN ALL KNOW THIS? Simple! by checking out the one who inspired the Words of the Master's book in Acts 5:32! No 'OBEDIENCE' No Holy Spirit! It is that PLAIN!
--John

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim, Ollie, Suzie, Ambassador4Christ,

It looks like there are more and more folks finding the site back up.

Pilgrim, I went to your website and really enjoyed it. My most recent discussion on "Once Saved, Not Always Saved" posed the question of what if the believer stops believing. I could think of insanity or illness being the only possible cause for a condition like this.

The person believing OSNAS quoted:

2 Pet 2:20—For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2 Pet 2:21—For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Taken out of context, these verses appear to support his claim. I replied with the surrounding context and other portions of Scripture that clearly give the actual meaning of these Scriptures. "Knowledge" is different that "Belief and Acceptance". The other terms that came to play were "Fall, total Fall, and Stumble". One must also note the subject of 2 Peter 2 is false teachers. I'll be back to join in the discussion. I firmly believe in Eternal Security and Salvation.

Those Oklahoma "howdies" were really missed when the site was down. Thank you for this greeting.
 Your above post contains some good thoughts which I want to study more.

Thank you
Ollie

Hi blackeyedpeas,

Amen to post #12. Glad to hear you liked our web site. Some other strong verses on eternal security are in Eph. 1

Eph. 1:12 “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.  13  In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,  14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

God’s Word clearly teaches that a true Christian is sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (verse 13). Verse 14 tells us that the Holy Spirit the “earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” The word earnest here means:

BDB/Thayers # 728
728 arrhabon ar-hrab-ohn'}
of Hebrew origin 06162; TDNT - 1:475,80; n m
AV - earnest 3; 3
1) an earnest
1a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment
that the full amount will subsequently be paid

In other words the Holy Spirit is our guarantee that our redemption is complete and that a true Christian can never lose the salvation God has granted them by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. If a true Christian could lose their salvation then God would default on the Holy Spirit. Who for even a moment believes that God will default on the Holy Spirit? This is something that could never happen, therefore our salvation is held secure by God and not by ourselves.

God bless,
Pilgrim

OSAS Thats me  ;D

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

It's nice to hear from you again. I find this to be a very interesting area of study. I have been studying the area of Eternal Salvation for about 2 weeks now and continually find more sources of Scripture. I believe that Assurance of Salvation is important in building up a Christian in Faith.

I'm trying to organize at least two weeks of notes and hope to share some of it here. So far, I'm convinced that bold confidence and assurance of Salvation is not of ourselves, rather of Confidence in Almighty God and complete belief in God's Promises. I give thanks that my beliefs don't rest in myself. I am weak, HE IS STRONG!

Whatever I post, I hope to do so in Christian Love. It's nice to be back with friends.

Oklahoma Howdy to Pilgrim,

I am studying almost the same portions of Scriptures over the last couple of weeks. As an old guy, I remember the term "ernest" being used as a non-refundable deposit in buying a house. The indwelling and Seal of The Holy Spirit as an "ernest of our inheritance" as a Child of God is blessed assurance that we have been accepted into the Church which is the Body of Christ.

I take great comfort that my salvation is assured and to know that I am an heir to the kingdom, sealed by the Holy Spirit.  "Signed, sealed, delivered....I'm His!"

(http://thebackpew.com/backpew/images/adropinthebucketofeternity.jpg)

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

This is a repost of a message I posted just before the system crash.

I realize that "Once Saved, Always Saved" is a controversial topic among Christians. My opinions on this topic are not intended to anger anyone with a different belief. I don't believe that man can do anything to deserve or earn Salvation. Further, I don't believe that man can do anything, in and of himself, to merit a continuance of Salvation.

Eph 4:30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Rom 8:13  For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

The wages of sin is death under the old covenant of law. The Gospel of God's Grace is a new covenant, a Gift of forgiveness of sins through the shed Blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. Those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour are free from the bondage and curse of the law. The acceptance of Jesus must be by faith alone through the Grace of God. Man will never deserve this Gift, and man can't purchase this gift by works or righteousness. There is no righteousness in man except through the blood of Jesus Christ. Any sin or evil by a child of God would grieve the Holy Spirit. God's children are exhorted to depart from evil and sin no more. However, man is not capable of living a perfect and Holy life without sin. Any righteousness of man will be as filthy rags APART FROM THE BLOOD OF JESUS.

Living after the flesh is living in unbelief, without Jesus Christ as a personal Saviour. Living in the Spirit is living in Belief with Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. The seal spoken of in Ephesians 4:30 is Grace implanted in the soul of a believer that is an incorruptible and never dying seed. This seed is a claim and adoption of the believer as a child of God. The believer becomes a member of the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST and can never be removed.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In man's terms, the "earnest" in Ephesians 1:14 is like a down payment on a house that will not be refunded. In this case, the "earnest" is the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. The believer was purchased by the Blood of Jesus through the Grace of God.

2 Corinthians 1:20  For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2 Corinthians 1:21  Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;
2 Corinthians 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

A believer does not live with security and assurance because of his or her own actions, works, and righteousness. A believer has merit, security, and assurance only because of the Grace of God, forgiveness of sin, and the Blood of Jesus Christ, the Lord and Saviour. The believer's standing is in the love, power, and care of Christ. The promises of God are unconditional, immutable, and irrevocable.

Hi blackeyedpeas,

Amen! Great post #27

Pilgrim

Eternal Life And Salvation:

Selected Verses: John 10:28, Titus 1:2, 1 John 5:13, John 4:14, John 5:24 and supporting comparisons for additional study.

John 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Romans 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
__________

Titus 1:2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2 Timothy 1:10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
__________

1Jo 5:13  These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the
Son of God.

1Jo 5:10  He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Joh 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

John 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
John 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31  But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
__________

Joh 4:14  But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 14:16  And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17  [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18  I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:19  Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 7:38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

Revelation 7:16  They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Revelation 7:17  For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Joh 6:35  And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
__________

Joh 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed
from death unto life.

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Joh 6:40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eternal Life and Salvation:

Romans 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Romans 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.
Romans 8:34  Who [is] he that condemneth? [It is] Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Romans 8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Romans 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Romans 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

What happens if a true believer, one who has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour, abandons their faith or belief. First, I would find this difficult and a stretch of hypotheticals, but this will be the topic of this post. Does this once true believer still have salvation, or is salvation removed?

This once true believer still has Salvation. The promise was given by God, and the promise was delivered to the believer in the form of the Holy Spirit. The work of Christ was finished on the cross. Romans 8:32-39 clearly states that nothing can separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This would certainly include the actions or inactions of the individual believer and their beliefs. "Nor height, nor depth," in verse 39 includes a host of positives or negatives regarding the believer.

A person is not saved by their own actions, works, or righteousness. It is also true that a believer can't lose their salvation by their own actions, works, or righteousness. The believer may lose rewards or suffer consequences for their actions, inactions, and beliefs, but loss of salvation will not be one of those consequences. The Power and Promise of God will not be broken. The Power and Promise of the Blood of Jesus Christ will not be broken. The Power and Seal of the Holy Spirit will not be broken. GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!

Eternal Life and Salvation:

2 Timothy 2:10  Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:11  [It is] a faithful saying: For if we be dead with [him], we shall also live with [him]:
2 Timothy 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
2 Timothy 2:13  If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

First, it should be obvious that true believers are being addressed with these verses. Our Salvation is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory (verse10). A true believer is crucified with Christ and lives with Christ (verse 11). See quotes from Romans 6:3-11 below. A true believer will live with Christ, as Christ lives, forever (verse 11). If the believer denies God, He will deny the believer (verse 12). What is it that will be denied? Is Salvation denied or revoked? See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 below for the answer. Reward is denied, NOT SALVATION. Man has no effect on the Truth, Purity, and Promise of God. God cannot lie, and God cannot deny Himself (verse13).

Romans 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Romans 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Romans 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Romans 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Romans 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Romans 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 3:11  For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!

Eternal Life and Salvation:

First, I don't know of any person who has gone from being a true believer to total apostasy. As a result, this would represent a stretched hypothetical. For the sake of this conversation, lets say this is possible and has happened. If this has happened, I would think INSANITY would be the cause. This stretched hypothetical would be one of the main arguments for those who theorize "Once Saved, Not Always Saved". Regardless, this is the subject of this post.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The believer was saved by a gift from God, a gift that was NOT earned or deserved in any way. The believer's only part is "saved through faith;" and immediately following is, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:" (verse 8 ) Verse 9 makes it clear that Salvation had nothing to do with the works of the believer, further verifying that the believer did nothing to earn Salvation. Verse 10 is interesting and powerful, especially when you consider, "For we are his workmanship,". This "workmanship" does not refer to sinful man, rather of the new man created in Christ Jesus. (Verse 10) The believer is a new creation, born again in Christ Jesus. Regeneration and sanctification of this new creature is wrought by the Almighty Power of God's Grace in the heart of the believer. It's also interesting to note that the new believer is prepared for good works, again by the Almighty Power of God's Grace. Ephesians 2:8-10 truly explains why Salvation is a gift of God and is wrought by the Almighty Power of God. Man did very little or nothing to obtain this priceless Gift. Man really only has a part in the belief and faith for Salvation. God sent the invitation to believe, and the believer accepted the invitation.

How much knowledge and how much faith is required for a man to believe and receive Salvation? We must remember that the Almighty Power of God's Grace is working in the heart of the believer. We must also remember the pitiful state of sinners when they believe. All of the Bible clearly proves that men have no merit, righteousness, or any other value that would represent ANY payment for the Gift of God's Grace. Salvation is a work started and finished by God, and Salvation is the purpose of God.

Let's try to answer the question of faith. How much faith belongs solely to the sinner when they accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour? Is any of this faith given or strengthened by God? Let's make a comparison before trying to answer this question. When a Christian is said to be built up in the faith, does the Christian do the building? A strong Christian is said to have strong faith. Did this strong Christian build this faith himself, or was the faith a work of God? I'm not making light of the long hours of study or submission to God's will in the building of faith. However we know that Salvation is a Gift of God and not of works. Go back to Ephesians 2:8 and see what words come right before, "and that not of yourselves:". Who gives and builds faith? See Romans 12:3 below.

Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

So, what part of Salvation did man earn, deserve, or work for? Isn't it true that man simply accepted an invitation to believe? What does man do to keep his Salvation? Can man be righteous or holy? Is is possible for man to completely abstain from sin? Does a believer perform good works alone, or does the believer receive help, guidance, and support from God? Does the believer keep himself, or has God promised to keep His own? Is there any glory in man, or does all of the glory reside in God? Is Salvation a spiritual accomplishment of man, or is Salvation wholly a Gift by God's Grace? See Ephesians 2:2-7, Romans 6:5, and Romans 3:24-28 below.

Ephesians 2:2  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Ephesians 2:3  Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Ephesians 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Ephesians 2:7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:2-7 really speak for themselves, but I would like to point out a few highlights. Please see Ephesians 2:5 and give special attention to the word, "quickened". Just prior to the moment of belief, we were all dead in sins. After the moment of belief, the new believer is reborn, regenerated, and made alive (quickened) in Christ Jesus. The believer is alive and belongs to Christ. Ephesians 2:6 states the believer will sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Please notice in Ephesians 2:7 that it is still the exceeding riches of God's Grace and kindness shown to the believer through Christ Jesus. This clearly indicates the believer still lacks merit except through Christ Jesus.

Eternal Life and Salvation:

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:

The unbelievers are dead in sin, but believers are said to have been crucified with Christ and resurrected with Christ. Salvation is a passing from death to life in and through
Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25  Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:26  To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Romans 3:27  Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Read Romans 3:24-28 several times to understand just what part man has in Salvation. Justified freely by the Grace of God, Redemption in Christ Jesus, Jesus Christ suffered for the remission of sins, declared righteousness through the blood of Jesus and the forbearance of God, but man must believe in Jesus. However, this is followed up in verses 27 and 28 by saying that justification is not by the law, not by works, without the deeds of the law, but BY THE LAW OF FAITH. So, what is this law of faith? It is a doctrine of belief in the Glory of God and the blood of Jesus. All of the glory must be of God, and nothing of man. All is by God's Grace and nothing of man. So, Salvation is an undeserved gift given to man who believes. The purpose for the gift is God's Purpose, God's Love, and God's Grace.

So, the new believer is born again, regenerated, justified, and in union with Christ. Does the believer keep himself saved. If so, what must he do to keep himself saved. One must keep in mind that part of the promise has already been delivered and IS DONE in the heart of the believer. Is the believer in the protection of his own hand, or is he in THE HAND OF GOD? Must the believer be without sin and blameless to maintain his Salvation? Again, remember that part of the promise has already been delivered. Man may be faithless, but God is always FAITHFULL. God has already given and cannot lie or take away.

A Christian's life on earth is many times spoken of as a race or a fight. Does the Christian fight or persevere alone? Does the Christian run the race or fight the good fight with his own strength? Does the Christian build his own faith? The real question is whether the Christian will ever know whether he is saved or not? YES, the Christian should have 100% assurance in Salvation, simply because of a Promise from God, part of which has already been given. Please see Psalms 121:7-8, 1 Corinthians 1:8-9, Philippians 1:6, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 13:5, and Jude 1:24-25 Below:

Psalms 121:7  The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psalms 121:8  The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

Quick Note: The Christian does not preserve himself.

1 Corinthians 1:8  Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:9  God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Quick Note: The Christian does not confirm himself, and the Christian will certainly not be blameless. The Christian did not establish fellowship with Jesus Christ. God did and does all of these things.

Phi 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:

Quick Note: The Christian is not confident in himself, for a man is not an object of confidence. The assurance in the heart of the believer is in God. The good work begun in the heart of the believer is by God and HE WILL (not might) perform it until the day of Jesus Christ. This assurance is from God. GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!

2Ti 4:18  And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve [me] unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Quick Note: This does not mean or imply that the believer will never sin or do an evil work. However, the Lord will deliver the believer and preserve the believer unto his heavenly kingdom. The words are "SHALL" and "WILL" and they refer to the Power and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, not to the power, will, or work of the believer.

Heb 13:5  [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Quick Note: Who is this who promises to never leave or forsake the believer, and what are the conditions?

Jude 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jude 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Here is a portion of the assurance given to the believer. This is much more, more than sufficient for complete assurance of Eternal Salvation. This is not possible through anything that is done or not done by the believer. Whose Power is being exercised to keep the believer from falling and presenting the believer as faultless to HIS GLORY with exceeding joy? The assurance is magnified by Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What is Salvation (To Be Saved)?

How can I be Saved and receive Salvation?

Your life in this mortal body will be short, but your soul will live for eternity either in heaven or hell. Those who have received Salvation and accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour will live forever with Jesus in Heaven. Those who reject Jesus Christ will spend eternity in Hell. Almighty God, the Creator of all, is real and He Lives. Almighty God is three Holy Deities in ONE GOD: God, the Father; God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit. The Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God, containing the only true account of all creation, both past and future. God does love you, regardless of how many bad things you have done in your life. Because of his Love for you, God sent his only Son, Jesus Christ, to be crucified and die on a cross for your sins. Jesus Christ lived on this earth in the form of a man, but He was very God. Jesus Christ was righteous and without sin, yet he was convicted and sentenced to death. Jesus died and was buried, but he arose on the third day. Jesus Christ ascended back to Heaven and HE LIVES, very God. God wants you to accept Him, return His love, and become one of His children. God wants to adopt you and give you an inheritance, but you must believe to accept this Gift._____

If you are unsaved, please read this carefully. Do you many times feel alone in this world and helpless because of the evil you see and experience? Do you feel bad when you do wrong and wonder if there must be something else, other than this world, to enjoy? Do you feel empty and unhappy about yourself and what the future may bring? Answering these and other questions may give you the reasons why you should accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. Would you like to experience and enjoy peace, joy, and love this world can't offer? It isn't hard to become a believer and Saved: you can receive Salvation right now, this minute.

1 - I AM A SINNER:  You must understand that you are a sinner. Sin is wrong, as commanded by Almighty God in his Word, the Holy Bible. All men sin and do wrong in the sight of Almighty God. Regardless of how large or small your sins are, you can be forgiven and accepted as a Child of God. (See Scripture Notes 1 below)

2 - I BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS FOR MY SINS AND AROSE FROM THE DEAD AS MY LORD AND SAVIOUR:  Almighty God sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for you, in payment for your sins. The Blood of Jesus Christ will wash away your sins as if they had never happened. Jesus Christ bore suffering and pain on the cross for you, that you can be saved and be forgiven. Jesus Christ arose from the dead and LIVES as the Lord and Saviour to all who will believe and accept him. This is a Gift by God's Grace, a free gift that you didn't earn or deserve. (See Scripture Notes 2 below)

3 - I ASK JESUS CHRIST TO COME INTO MY HEART AS MY PERSONAL SAVIOUR AND FORGIVE MY SINS:  You must trust Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your heart as your personal Lord and Saviour. Ask Jesus Christ to be first in your life and forgive your sins. (See Scripture Notes 3 below)_____

If you believe this with your heart, you will be: baptized with the Holy Spirit, forgiven, indwelt by God, adopted into the family of God, made an heir of God, set apart for God, and much more. There are many wonderful gifts you will be given, all free and undeserved by the Matchless, Loving Grace of God.

I hope this doesn't sound difficult. The words and thoughts must be your words and thoughts from your heart. You must believe in your heart and ask Jesus for Salvation from your heart. Your prayer can be very simple, but your prayer must be from your heart._____

Lord Jesus, I am a sinner not worthy of your Love. Lord Jesus, I believe that you died on the cross for me and I ask you to come into my heart as my Lord and Saviour. Lord Jesus, I ask forgiveness for my sins and ask to follow you as the Lord of my life. In the name of Jesus Christ, I pray. Amen._____

Scripture Notes 1:

Rom 7:24  O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Ecc 7:20  For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Rom 3:10  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;_____

Scripture Notes 2:

John 19:16  Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led [him] away.
John 19:17  And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called [the place] of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:
John 19:18  Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.
John 19:19  And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.

1Pe 2:24  Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast._____

Scripture Notes 3:

John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:12  For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Romans 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Brother you get **** and a "BIG" AMEN!!!! :)

The *obedience* you speak of is obedience to the Gospel -- *the OBEDIENCE OF FAITH* (Rom. 16:26).

The Gospel message is believe, repent and receive. An immediate response to this offer of ETERNAL life is the obedience of faith that Christ wants. As a result, we received the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and the gift of God Himself (1 Jn. 4:15-16)..

I hope you are not being contentious simply for the sake of being contentious.  Anyone who needs Christ must know without the shadow of a doubt that salvation is by grace through FAITH in the Person and finished work of Christ. That is a guarantee of eternal life. Salvation is a Person, and once that Divine Person -- the Holy Spirit -- comes to take up residence, it is for all eternity (Titus 3:4-7).

The sins of believers are dealt with separately (1 Jn. 1:5-10).

Oklahoma Howdy to Sower,

Brother, it's nice to see you back.

In Christ

How do these fit in to the study of osas, osnas, apostasy, and falling away?

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,   ???  giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Forbidding to marry, and commanding  to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:1-3

Now. we beseech you brethen, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first,  ??? and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;.......
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

God used symbols for us in many places in His word.

Like Family.

Like Marriage.

Like Son.

Like Daughter.


May I ask, who here has a Son or Daughter?

I have a few of both.


There is no way to remove them from being mine. so if that is true and if I said they were not mine that would be a lie.  

Does God lie?


If He said He does not know me than He would have to lie.

God gave us common sense.  You can quote scripture all day long, but it will not change that He called me "Son" and to come back and say "Depart from me... I never knew you" to me would be a lie.

OSAS  I do not care about.  

But to call me "Son" That I care about.

And I call Him Father.  I would have to lie to say I never knew Him and I'm created in His image and after His Likeness.  

Abba Father, Daddy.

How do these verses fit into the study of osas, osnas, apostasy, or falling away?

But he that shall endure ??? unto the end the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy, and these have no root, which for a while believe, ??? and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.  ???
Luke 8:13

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

1 Timothy 4:1  Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrine of devils;
1 Timothy 4:2  Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1 Timothy 4:3  Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1 Timothy 4:4  For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1 Timothy 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
1 Timothy 4:6  If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

1 Timothy 4:1 - The departure spoken of here is not departure from Salvation, rather an error against doctrine of the Gospel of God's Grace. If you look in later verses and throughout this chapter, this is an exhortation for the ministry of truth in the Gospel of God's Grace. These verses refer to articles of doctrine in the Gospel of God's Grace.

As an example of errors in doctrine, the point is made in 1 Timothy 4:3 that forbidding marriage and the eating of meat is not part of the doctrine of the Gospel of God's Grace. If it is not forbidden by the Gospel of God's Grace, it is false teaching and an error. If your minister told you marriage would cause the forfeit of your salvation, that would be false doctrine. If your minister told you that eating meat would cause the forfeit of your salvation, that would be false doctrine. However, you would not lose your salvation if you believed you couldn't eat meat or marry. Some of the other things that would apply in verse one would be numerology, astrology, palm-reading, etc., etc., etc. You would not lose your salvation if you believed in these things, but they would be a departure from the doctrine of the Gospel of God's Grace. As another example in 1 Timothy 4:3, a priest believing he couldn't be married would not cause him to lose his salvation. However, it would be false teaching and contrary to the Gospel of God's Grace.

In conclusion, errors in doctrine do not equal loss of salvation.

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

I'm sorry it took so long for me to get these posted. I've been busy and back and forth to the doctor.

2 Thessalonians 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2 Thessalonians 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The apostle is addressing fears of the people they may have some error in doctrine and the second coming of Christ is at hand. The apostle calms them by explaining that the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the second coming of Christ. The falling away spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is those who will follow the anti-christ.

Thanks Bro. You've posted an excellent Gospel message. I would encourage you to create a tract out of it and distribute it in printed form. Too many tracts have too little Scripture. Also, put this of the other Christian forums on the Internet. The Lord bless you, Brother.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sower,

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed my post. I did post it on one other forum. I like to use Bible Verses because of the beauty in the writing, almost poetry. My own words are simple and not very stylish or pretty, but I do feel called to stand up and speak up. I'll do so as long as God lets me live. I figure the worst that can happen is I'll be arrested and forced to attend English and composition classes.  ;D

In Christ.

Pilgrim,  thanks for your post.  I've enjoyed reading all the responses.  I was especially grateful for the Heb 6:4.  This verse has always confused me and just today I listened to a teaching on the very same explanation for that verse!  God is good.

In Christ
Kathleen

Does that mean one can stray from God's will and still be saved?
Thank you for the reply. I am studying your thoughts.

Ollie

Hi,

I pray you are ok, what with your trips to the doctor.
I appreciate your replies. Thank you for taking the time. I am considering your thoughts on the verses. I do have a question.
Those who will fall away and follow the man of sin; will they still be saved?

Thanks again,
In His love,
Ollie

Yes, if you are talking about an error of doctrine. There is no faith or denomination without an error of doctrine, mainly because there is no one and true interpretation of the Holy Bible. Let me give you a couple more examples. Let's say your church says women can't cut their hair. This is not part of the Gospel of God's Grace. If the woman cut her hair or didn't cut her hair, it would not mean she either kept her salvation or lost it simply because of what she did with her hair. This command from the church would be false teaching.

Example 2: Your pastor commands all must wear robes without buttons or zippers, rather of simple hooks and eyes. This is not part of the Gospel of the Grace of God. Using buttons or not using buttons would not maintain or lose salvation. This command by the pastor would be an error in doctrine and a departure from the Gospel of God's Grace. This command from the pastor would be false teaching.

There would be other errors from doctrine that would be part of the Gospel of God's Grace. It would depend on what the error was and whether or not you knew it to be sin as to how it would effect your fellowship with Christ. Example 1: you check your horoscope in the newspaper every day just for fun and think nothing of it. Example 2: You consult a palm reader before you make any kind of a decision. Example 3: Money has become a God in your life. Example 4: You cheat on your wife. There might be debate on example 1, less debate on example 2, and no debate on examples 3 & 4. The next question would be, if you repent and confess these sins, would God forgive you, or would you forfeit your salvation?

Oklahoma Howdy to Ollie,

I have a chronic condition in my back from an infection in my spine several years ago. It was nearly fatal twice and it ate part of my spine. Recent tests indicate no sign of the infection. My biggest problem is pain, but my doctor is making things somewhat better. Regardless, I'm very happy and thankful to be alive.

I will need some help answering this question. I have done some study on the anti-Christ and those who will be deceived and/or follow him. I would first ask whether the follower was ever saved in the first place. I've done some interesting word studies on the word "fall" and how it is used in numerous portions of the Bible. It is rendered "stumble" in many cases, indicating a fault or sin that can be repented of and forgiven. The word "salvation" also has some varying uses (i.e. saved from physical death, saved from spiritual death). It is rendered "escape" in some areas. There is also a doctrine of rewards lost in some cases, as opposed to loss of salvation.

I can only offer an opinion without evidence on this question. I think I'll have to leave this one to a preacher or Bible scholar using the forum. This one is over my head, but I do believe that a truly saved person cannot lose their salvation. Man is imperfect and all will fail, but God is perfect, pure, and cannot lie. If God makes a promise, IT'S DONE! Regarding Biblical evidence of what will be lost or not lost with the followers of the anti-Christ, I can't provide it.

Wow! Thanks Pilgrim and Blackeyed Peas!  :) Awesome job! What an encouragement!

http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/once_saved.htm (http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/once_saved.htm)

DITTO  ;D

First of all let me say that it is good to see this place back up!  I'll admit I was a bit shocked to hear it had been hacked.  But, God is good.

I also wanted to say that I've truly enjoyed reading this passage.  It's not argumentative or defensive.  It's a relishment of God's character.  That is, after all, what this whole topic is about isn't it?  If I can lose my salvation, I can, in effect, render what God has ordained, and enacted as inept.  If that were the case, my God would be small.  Let me just say for the record - He is not.  He is infinite and worthy of praise!

I was interested in seeing the passages listed in Hebrews as support for eternal security.  One such passage I didn't see listed (though I'm getting old  ;D) was Hebrews 7:26-28...

"For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens. He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself. For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever."

If my sin made God's provision unaffective, then this would be an incorrect verse.  Christ must then be offered repeatedly for my sin.  His sacrifice would have been unacceptable to our holy God.  Interesting note here since Easter is coming up...Why did God raise Jesus from the dead?  As a sign of His judicial acceptance of the sacrifice Jesus made for our sin!  The judgment was death.  The result was life.  What good would a dead Savior be?  I can gladly say that my security doesn't lie in logic, or reason, but in the truth God has revealed in the Good News of His Son.

As a side bar as well, I've noted that Pilgrim has given a couple of explanations of the Hebrews 6, 10 passages.  I'll be the first to admit that I've got alot of study to do on this passage, but here's something that I've considered of late.  I personally feel that this passage is directed towards believers.  Why?  I think we tend to confuse the "judgment" and the "fiery indignation" as a direct reference to Hell.  I don't think that is what is being referred to here.  Remember that even the believer will stand before God one day and give an account of his deeds, and that those deeds of "wood, hay, and stubble" will be burned away.  I'm thinking that this is a similiar reference.  That is, the disobedient child of God may run the risk of intense judgment for their sin - but not eternal damnation by their sin.  I do believe that a believer can wilfully chose to run from God and "enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season" (Jonah - for his own selfish hatred of the Assyrian oppressors, David - for lust of Bathsheba, Annanias and Saphira - for greed and deceit)  When God choses to enact this judgment is unknown.  BTW, just as a reassurance of eternal security. When we stand before Him and are judged, the wood, hay and stubble that is burned away leaves what?  The gold, silver and precious stones!  Point being that regardless of my sin, I still have the precious gold, silver and precious stones of my Savior's blood on my life, and a sanctification of that life to go with[/b]!  Oh well, that is what I've been thinking about that part.  As for being eternally justified, sanctified, and glorified in the eyes of my God?  AMEN!!

One more thing lest my good be evil spoken of...When I mentioned the wood, hay and stubble burning away, I by no means adhere to or support any concept of a pergutory.  My God will justly deal with my worthless works, but will also honor not only the good works on my part, but the best work of His Son found in my redemption.

my opinion about eternal security and OSAS is who cares.

we shouldn't be worried about whether or not we can lose our salvation.
we should live every day in worship of him.
live every day in faith.

i'm not saying if i agree with eternal security or not.
for me i have come to the point of saying it doesn't matter.
we should focus on the Lord our God.

either way, whether you believe in the OSAS or not your focus should be on the lord always.

i pray i didn't offend any one  :-\

Oklahoma Howdy to SincereHeart,

Thanks, I'm glad you received encouragement. I do believe that confidence and assurance in Jesus leads to greater joy and happiness. Confidence in self leads to disappointment and failure. I do receive great joy that JESUS PAID IT ALL, ALL TO HIM I OWE! This is the beauty and glory of the Gospel of God's Grace. God's Grace is a beautiful and GLORIOUS TRUTH!

AMEN!!!!!  ;D

Oklahoma Howdy to Allinall,

Amen! All of the Glory goes to ALMIGHTY GOD.

Pilgrim,

Good Post,

Emphasis, must be made on the gospel of works being another gospel, and anyone who teaches another gospel than the one taught in scripture and delivered by the Apostles, let that person be accursed as the scriptures state.

Those that teach, you can lose the free gift, and claim faith in Jesus for their salvation, deny the blood that bought them, they don;t even realize what they espouse,.

As hard as it is to state these truths concerning them, it needs to be said, to refute their untruths.

Again well put, give them the Word.

Petro

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

It's nice to see you back on Christians Unite. It is nice to know that our trust and confidence is in Jesus, and not ourselves. One of my favorite phrases comes from a beautiful hymn, "Jesus Paid it All, All to Him I owe". My words are simple, but I say them often, "GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE!"

In Christ.

DITTO  ;D

An a howdy to you, BEP,

I say Amen to yours on the subject.

Regardless how many feel on whether this is a great truth or not, (it wouldn't change it one iota) and we should  be shouting it from the rooftops, we should not let it slip away from us, and we be believe it, because we understand the teaching of it, and we teach it, because the next generation of soldiers of the cross need to understand it; it is a fou8ndational doctrine to our faith,  because it is grounded in the truth of the Living Word of God.

Blessings,

Petro

   Hello Everyone,

  I thank my God and Saviour that I am saved and on my way to Heaven!

  God sealed me "with that holy Spirit of promise, (Eph 1:13)
which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. (1:14)

 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (John 14:16)

  "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. (Heb 7:25)

  "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1 Peter 1:3)
  "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1:4)
  "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1:5)

                                     Thank You Jesus!

Oklahoma Howdy to Petro,

Law, self-righteousness, and works

versus

God's Love & Grace, The Blood of Jesus, Our Lord & Saviour

were hot topics of debate during the time of the Apostle Paul. I seriously doubt the debate will end in this age. I've seen several recent polls that indicate about 60% of Christians believe that Salvation is a one time and eternal event. Salvation is a gift that we didn't earn or deserve and one that we will never earn or deserve. All of the Glory goes to God and none to man. The Promise of God is ROCK SOLID. GOD SAID IT, IT'S DONE.

Howdy back at ya BEP!

And AMEN!!!

Hello Brother!

I just wanted to say two things about your post.  For one, you seem to be at a point that I'm at right now as well in one sense.  That point being a theocentric viewpoint, rather than a theological viewpoint.  Hairsplitting?  Not really.  A theological viewpoint tends to focus on the doctrine more than the God of the doctrine, while the theocentric viewpoint keeps God at the center of all.  Doctrine, my friend, is not only necessary, but is profitable (2 Timothy 3:16)!  The danger in our world of denominational thinking is which doctrine is right, or rather, which denomination is right, rather than by faith accepting what God has taught, and in faith applying that "doctrine" to our lives.  We must not only have doctrine, but we must follow those doctrines.  But never at the expense of the God Who gives us those doctrines.  Make sense?

It is then with that point that I come to the next.  This doctrine of eternal security is not a denominational concept my friend.  It is one espoused in scripture, by the very Savior you say we should (and rightly so) focus on.  Keep that statement in mind when I ask this question - upon whom does my salvation depend?  If it depends upon me, then my works are necessary to maintain it.  If it depends upon my God, then it depends upon His work to maintain it.  I think the major difficulty people come to in this issue, is the perceived (if not blatantly exemplified) lack of obedience.  That is, "if I'm saved, then I can sin as much as I want!"  I prefer to consider Paul's assessment of this line of thinking in Romans 6:1-2

"What shall we say then?  Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?  By no means! (I prefer the KJV's "God forbid!") How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

Paul goes on to relate the ineptitude of living a sinful life, when, in fact, we are dead to sin, but alive to God.  A person who loses his salvation based upon his own sinful acts must then be dead to God, but alive to his sin.  This is not what Paul is teaching!  The point is simple.  I was a sinner.  I am a sinner.  I will be a sinner until my God takes me home and glorifies me in His presence (i.e. conforms me to the image of His Son).  The only difference between me and a lost man is that I'm a sinner saved by grace!  Amen?  If so, then my sin isn't the point.  My God's grace, love, forgiveness, as well as His justice, righteousness and holiness are.  It simply comes down to a question of whether or not our focus is God-centered or man-centered.  For me, and not without great amounts of difficulty, it has become God-centered.  I trust that you too can see this, and trust in the only trustworthy Person anyone can find today.

God bless!

Oklahoma Howdy to Asaph,

I was talking about the Gospel of God's Grace, not a doctrine. The key word here is GRACE, a free gift not earned or deserved. You would have to add to or take away to get anything else.

I wouldn't have a clue why you would say that Eternal Salvation is lifeless and vain. It would be the exact opposite. Our Saviour, Jesus Christ, LIVES, and we have eternal life with him THROUGH HIS SHED BLOOD ON THE CROSS. There is no vanity for man in the Gospel of God's Grace, nor is there any glory for man. ALL GLORY GOES TO ALMIGHTY GOD.

Some men are mistaken that they can achieve righteousness in themselves or do enough good works to save themselves. This is the vanity of man and false teaching. If this was possible, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the cross was for nothing. I am convinced that man is in desperate need of a Saviour, Jesus Christ. To understand the Gospel of God's Grace, you need to forget about self. If you wish to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, you are purchased and belong to him. If you live or glory, you will LIVE AND GLORY IN HIM, not yourself. You won't be able to see the GLORY OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD'S GRACE until you forget about self and LIVE IN CHRIST.

Oklahoma Howdy To Petro,

I believe this is the greatest truth and the greatest event of the Holy Bible and the history of mankind. I'm drinking a cup of coffee and getting ready to leave to spend Easter with my daughter and her family. There is no doubt at all that we serve a LIVING SAVIOUR, JESUS CHRIST, OUR LORD.

If there is any doubt, it is on the part of man, NOT GOD. Another Christian friend uses the terms, DIE OR FLY. You are already aware that dying is for the lost and FLYING IS FOR GOD'S CHILDREN. He didn't expound further on FLYING, but I immediately recognized much more in these simple words. The pilot is JESUS, one worthy of complete faith and confidence. The flight is beautiful, safe, and secure in complete assurance of our safe destination. Our complete confidence should be shared with others so they may also FLY WITH JESUS. There should be no fear of FLYING, as there is joy from the beginning of the flight. Boarding is entry into his GLORIOUS LIGHT. We rest safe and secure in HIS POWERFUL MIGHT.

HAPPY EASTER!

Sigh, this topic already has FIVE pages, and just since the forum reopened not even two weeks ago...

(http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQDdAmIat2n5cfjYcJ2FBmgmxcpXDZB9a2H8mvkl3fGpZNFH1D5G9srtctdh3Ty2A22OuJCYXYXutb8rPcYlMaIrSiWDjDACQw0xVqZawe9!UkenKCz6HBB04uF3AEob/dogdayafternoon.jpg?dc=4675407420105273575)

Hello All,

This is an interesting thread. I was wondering how the ‘The Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse:

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And others like it fit in the OSAS scheme?

It makes no difference; what any man says;

Christians ought to listen to Jesus.

Jesus said,

37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39  And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Jhn 6:37,39-40)

Every person who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God, will be raised at the last day, whether they want to or not, what is sad, is they do not have that assurance today. This is Good News of the Gospel.

Mat 24
13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

The endurance spoken of herein, is not physical endurance, and the only spiritual endurance any man can claim, is that of the Holy Spirit working in man and persevering in the end, not because any man wills IT, but because God wills I, AND HAS ORDAINED IT, since He is the one that calls all those whom he saves out of pit of death.

Rom 8
30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Everyone whom God calls, He will in the end glorIfy, because Jesus will not lose ONE, OF whom God  gives unto Him.

"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."    (Jhn 10:28)
 
These are the words of assurance, for everyone who is saved.

 Blessings,

Petro

Petro said:
“It makes no difference; what any man says;
Christians ought to listen to Jesus.”

I agree, which is why I asked how the ‘Parable of the Sower’ in Matthew 13 and this verse below, fits in with the OSAS idea.

Matthew 24:12-14
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I can’t see your argument that the ‘endure to the end’ means something other than physically enduring till the end comes. As shown in these scriptrures:

Matthew 10:21-23
And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 4:4-5
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Hebrews 6:4-15
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

In the Greek hupomeno {hoop-om-en'-o}

1) to remain
2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
    a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one's faith in Christ
    b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments

I guess from your reply there is some confusion as to what I am asking. I simply want to know how these scriptures line up with the idea of OSAS. I'm not asking for more scriptures but a clarification on the above scriptures in light of OSAS.

 
Tawhano,

I don't know why you would be confused, since from the begining I have been pointing to the same points you close your post with.

Man can do nothing, he is totally helpless, with regard to his unsaved condition, this is why Total Depravity of the TULIP, we were discussing, is termed "Total Inability"

And, to answer your question directly; you posted;

"I can't see your argument that the 'endure to the end' means something other than physically enduring till the end comes.

As shown in these scriptrures,to keep from quarreling about it:

Jesus tells us;

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (Jhn 15:4-5)

And, again;

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (Jhn 6:63)

Physical endurance is not what is going to be rewarded in the end with salvation, this is not in view in the verses, you have given; and by your own understanding of the Greek word "hupomeno" and your 2 points you make at the very end it is evident, and plain you don't believe it, yourself.

Since the scriptures are written primarily for Christians (as well as non Christians), it is NOT possible for the unsaved to be saved just by enduring outside of Christ,  however, we understand what is written for our own edification and admonishment that all the verses quoted are speaking of enduring by abiding in Christ thru the Spirit.

I beleive what you were trying to point out, in your previous post with regard to OSAS, was that those who endured are rewarded  in the end with "salvation", insinuating that all of the unsaved who endured would be saved (please correct me if I am wrong).

While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

The passage you quoted can be scrutinized by looking it over,
 
Mat 24:8-13; and at verse 9, it becomes plain who are the ones who endure to the end.  

8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

It is plain, this passage is speaking to the hears of this discourse, who are they??

Verse 1, tells us it was Jesus's disciples who are the hears of these things which he spoke concerning the end times.

So, we can then, say with assurance, ALL those who hear and do His words, are His disciples. And that is why, I pointed out to you, it is those who persevere by the Spirit, who in the end will be saved, not just those who endure, Consider Rev 16 these endured affliction by the plagues, from God and what do the scriptures say consider these. they "blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."  (vs 11)

So then we see that Calvinism, teaches that man is drawen, saved and kept, not by any power he possess, but by the same Spirit, which raised Jesus from the dead.

This is why, everyone who names the name of Christ can be assured they are secure in Him, it has nothing to do on their ability to keep themselves saved by keeping laws or ordinances.

This is the Good News of the Gospel, that we have been forgiven of ALL of OUR SINS.

Blessings,

Petro

Pedro,

I suspect that the confusion is my use of the words ‘physical endurance’. I’m not talking about un-believers and believers alike lasting in the flesh till the end because they endured afflictions but rather the believer lasting in his faith till the end (his death). If you stand fast in your faith in Christ then you shall be saved but if you ‘fall away’ like the seeds in the parable and in Hebrews 6, then you will not be saved. If your love for Christ wax cold because iniquity abounds then you will not be saved

Perhaps the confusion may be that I don't understand your definition of being ‘saved’. When do you believe a person is saved?

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too?


Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come?

Tawhona,

I can see, what the problem is, I asked asaph this same question, concerning Heb 6:4-6; how one understands these verses, makes a world of difference how he sets his foundational doctrines.

Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

You need to work on these, only then will you get a correct understanding tghe definition of "saved" according to scripture, never mind about my definition.

By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.




Blessings,

Petro

Petro said:
Those spoken of in Heb 6:4-6, are unsaved.

They are like Judas Iscariot, or the Mohamads of the world, they came up to the tree of life but never partook of the fruit.

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

The verse says they partook. How can an unsaved person be a partaker of the Holy Ghost or the heavenly gift? This verse is most definitely talking about people who were saved but did not endure to the end. The verse below says the same thing, believers can fall away if they don’t hold steadfast in their faith.

Hebrews 3:13-14
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Petro said:
While agreeing with you, that potentially this is true, we know (from scripture) that not all that endure to the end will be saved, and it is unbilical to make such a claim.

I’m not sure I see your point there. Do the scriptures tell us ‘that not all that endure to the end will be saved’ or is it umbilical to claim that not all that endure to the end will be saved. From the verses below I would think it is clear that the promise is if you endure till the end that you will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Petro, I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint. In all your arguments you were evasive and opinionated. You would pick out one verse I quoted to refute and ignore any others I provided. You dismiss the verses I provided as not meaning what they say by casual remarks and nothing in scripture to back up your claims. The verses you did use had nothing to do with the point you were trying to make. After reading your many post I still am confused as to what your doctrine is that you are trying to get me to see.


Petro said:
By the way, there are no "free agents" I don't know where this is taught in scripture, this is pipe dream, only deception and pride put this elusive desire in sinners who want to be their own self made person; man is either in bondage to sin, or a bond servant to Christ.

I didn’t say anything about ‘free agent’ being a biblical term. I was saying that I refuse to bond myself to man’s teaching of the Bible. When I look through the arguments here about defending one’s religion I see people quoting verses that they were taught without really knowing what it means or comparing it to other verses to see how it fits into the overall picture. OSAS doesn’t fit in with all the scripture. Just because you can quote a few verses that, on the face of it, seem to support your views doesn’t mean that to be so. I tried to carry an open minded, intelligent debate here but all I got was your nasty remark proclaiming me to be a sinner.

Tawhano,

What?, you say just because I post a few verses, it doesn't prove anything??  That is strange, coming from one who claims to believe the Bible.

It is written, how can two walk together, lest they agree...

Unwittingly, you and others who make these blanket statements, "I only believe what the Bible teaches" think you have one up on all other run of the mill Christians as thou, you undertsand all there is to know about what the Bible teaches, but the fact is while rejection one doctrinal position you embrace another, taught by men.

And sometimes, depending how you understand a certain verse or passage, you have a little of this and a little of that teaching of this or that man in your doctrine.

We fishermen call it a "birds nest", and as anyone who knows anything about fishing, it is impossible to catch anything with such a mess;  learn from Paul, he took three years, upon being saved, and went to Arabia, to untangle his fishing line, and then came forth preaching Christ in power by the Holy Spirit, whom he persecuted.

Free agents, in the end what they claim to believe and what they believe are two different things, so who is deceived in the end??

Am I wrong in understanding you believe that the Bible teaches, these in Heb 6, are saved and Lost their Salvation??

We both read the same passage of scripture and come away with two different interpretations.  Why is that??  

The answer to this question lies in the Word of God.

Understanding words, is basic to being able to put together the teaching, the passage of scripture teaches,  to the teachable.

May I share verses with you; I don't doubt one monent if you say you believe what the Bible teaches, that you will deny these verses..

Deut 29
29  The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

1 Cor 2
11  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12  Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13  Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Now refering to verse 29, of Deut 29 above, the NT at Gal 3:22-25;  makes it plain;

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."

So, then the Bible teaches that the law of sin and death, this is the same Law of Moses, which was "written and engraven in stone" by God; it is done away with in Christ when men turn their hearts toward Him.

Do you believe this??  The Bible teaches it in the New Testament plainly...for all to read and understand.

I can safely say, only the natural man, or a babe in Christ is unable to believe this..that the Law which was written in stone is done away with in Christ Jesus; and those of us who claim understanding of that which is written know and believe this is speaking of  all that was written on those tablets of stone Moses prepared, this includes the Comandments

Are we in agreement, thus far..

Petro

That verse in Matt 24 Who was Jesus speaking too? ISRAEL!

Was the period of Grace in effect then or was it a future event yet to come? No. It came in Acts Chapter 9  ;D

King Saul was a partaker of the heavenly gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the Old Testament and before Christ was crucified and risen to the Father, we see God giving the Holy Spirit to those he was using at the time to do whatever miraculous thing He was working for His people. The promise of the Holy Spirit wasn’t made until Jesus was crucified and ascended into Heaven.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 2:16-17
But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Ephesians 1
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

earnest  = arrhabon

1) an earnest
a) money which in purchases is given as a pledge or downpayment that the full amount will subsequently be paid


Taken from root word arabown:
1)   pledge, security

The Holy Spirit being the proof of purchase, a down payment to secure the full purchase. This is the crux of the debate here. Can one lose their salvation or is it a done deal.

Why do people want to make sure that people live in fear?

Salvation is a gift.  No where in the word does it say that God will take a gift (Salvation) from you.

Well lets look to the word it's self.

Romans 11

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,



About the truth thing, and someone deciding what is the truth, and once they decide that they have the truth, even if they may not have the truth, they still believe that they are speaking truth, for instance, like anyone on this forum may believe that the way they see it is the truth, but because they have been blinded from the truth, thay may just be speaking what they perceive as the truth and then trying to convince others of their truth that is not truth at all, but they do not know it is not truth.  You know this could be happening to you and if you are blinded, but you think you see, than you would not be aware of this blindness and would think that others are the blind ones instead of yourself.  what a ditch to have fallen into by being lead by a blind man.

Early, One more AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!!

Tawhano,

there use to be a gal on this forum, posting under the username of SherBear, you sure do remind me of her; she spoke with great pride of being verbose, and there is nothing wrong with that, butI encouraged her to engage the brain, before verbossing, cause she covered herself by backtracking as you are doing, claiming to believe only what the Word taught, but unable to comprehend the matter,  as I see it, how can anyone believe unless they understand first??  Anyhow your little jig, back and forth looks like a dance but the fact is you're stumbling around at the Word.

You say you agree but, really..... you don't..



Well thats interesting, Jesus himself warned against blashpeming against the Holy Spirit, when they blasphemed Him, saying He had an unclean spirit. (Mk 3:29-30), was the Holy Spirit given then, NO, your confusion lies in your understanding as to whom the Holy Spirit is  given to;  

Just cause someone hears Him, doesn't mean He is saved, for what does the scriptures say, but;

Rom 2
11  For there is no respect of persons with God.
12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And you have heard me say, the law is our schoolmaster who brings us, to Christ.
  (Gal 3:24)

Now, I know you are going to say to yourself at this point, what does the law have to do with this conversation??

Everything, since what you are trying to prove is that these who, are partakers of the Holy Spirit, in your understanding of Heb 6:4-6, lose "partaker" status, when they sin, since sin it, is  transgression of the law (1Jhn 3:4)  which you claim is their salvation..

While what is really established here in these verses, is that they were enlightened concerning the Gospel of Christ, they tasted, but have not become partakers of Christ.
 
These are them, that followed Jesus, ate of the fishes and loaves, and witnessed the miracles he performed saw with their very eyes; yet, they were insulted and rejected Him, when he said to then;  

Jhn 6, (consider the whole passage vs's 47-64)
51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

Heb 3, sums it all up.

7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
15  While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

These my friend never new  Him, but if you could have asked them, they would tell you, yahh, we know God.

And there are many today who claim to know God, but , that is not the issue, the issue is, does God know me??;  This is the question they should ask themselves.

And to those who think they know him, but are not known by Him,  He will say to them in that day


"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There are many true Christians, is this age who, think they understand what the scriptures teach, but because they are lazy, they just read commentaries, or heard the preacher say something; they go and get someone elses opinion and (if sounds like something I believe, they reason,) they embrace the teaching, instead of digging into the Word, to see if it's true allowing the Spirit to teach them and confirm the truth, of what they are reading.

Blessings

Petro

Adam, Eve & Satan were all created in perfection, Not Salvation.  To have Salvation you must first need Saving.  Satan who was created in Heaven was with God and had no recourse when he fell.  Adam and Eve on the other hand were not in Heaven/Gods continual presence, therefore when they fell they were eligible for Salvation, Due to the fact that they had only seen God when he came to them in the Garden and unlike Satan when he fell, who had enjoyed the unconfined presence of God, Was forever removed from enjoying Gods presence in the continual state.


So you are in need of correction.

‘How can unbelievers be partakers?’


Well, they taste of the heavenly gift.  they choose not to sit down and have the full 7 course meal.  they think it will spoil their other meals in life.

It was said of Paul (as he quoted it in Romans) that since he was preaching that Faith apart from the works of the law was sufficient for salvation, then why not sin that grace may abound?  

As in Paul's day I think that is still the fear that some have in our day at the proclaiming of God's grace.

At issue, I think, is that there may be be a misconception about SIN - the nature that Jesus died for, and sins - actions that are wrong.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." - 2 Corinthians 5:19-21  

Sins, wrongful or unlawful deeds, are the symptoms while SIN is the disease from which the symptoms spring.

For example, it's not that Jesus died for the individual act of stealing, but He died to take away the root problem that would cause someone to want to steal in the first place.

He has crucified our "old man" and replaced it with His Nature.

"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."- Galatians 2:20

Notice what Paul says in Ephesians 4:28:

"Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth."  

Not "let him who stole know that he is lost and undone", but let him who stole quit it because he has put off the old man- He is born again of better stuff! To steal now would be to live against his nature. A man isn’t a thief because he steals; a man steals because he is a thief.

This why Peter says in 2 Peter 2:21:

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.  But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."  

Someone who would seek to turn back is either living against their nature (and miserable), or never had their nature changed to begin with– the “dog” returns to its vomit.

I can be comfortable stealing if I’m a thief and it is in my nature, but if I have passed from death unto LIFE, I can never again be the same. I would have been better off keeping the “old man” than being a new one who is trying to live like an old one.

Now if Jesus died for sin then sin is no longer the issue, rather it is BELIEF on Jesus.

People are not condemned because of sin, but because they have not believed on Him.

“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”  John 3:18

When we come to the Lord our sins are forgiven because of the faith that is placed in Christ.

Eternal Security?

There is no other kind.

In His Grace....

This post is the best one I have ever seen that explains this issue.

So what I see in your post explains how a person could continue in sin because they have never accepted the savior by choice and they desire to stay as they are therefore they cannot crucify Christ again, and there remains no sacrifice for their sins.   Is that what you are implying?  if so it makes a lot of sense to me

Early57,

Yes, essentially that is what I am saying.  I'm glad if it has helped.

Specifically the scripture in Hebrews about there no longer remaining a sacrifice for sin is showing the Hebrews the futility of going back to animal sacrifices when the only sacrifice that is now acceptable to God has been made by His Son. There is no other sacrifice for sin that can be made.

If someone continues in sinful actions they have not accepted the Savior as you said, or they do not understand God's grace.  

Many people have a "works" oriented understanding which is always doomed to failure (the arm of flesh will always fail), rather than a faith relationship that is totally dependent upon God.

He loves us not because of what we do, but because of who we are in Him: His children.

In turn as this love works in our lives it causes us to walk accordingly and naturally; not out of our own efforts trying to maintain a salvation that we did not purchase, but from hearts born of His Grace.

We love Him because He first loved us.

Remain blessed,

In His Grace....

Tawhano,

How can anyone believe unless one understands  first, I cannot help you in this department.

In order to understand one has to be able to critically examine the information put before  them and analyze it, but above all else, Christians who don't ask, don't receive. Understanding Gods word requires wisdom from above, and it only comes by prayer and supplication; to go around asking others or seeking the answers by reading others opinions, is insulting to the Spirit of God, who is able to make one wise in all matters concerning the Word of God.

James 1
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Since I am not God, I can only point out the scriptures and the words for you which illuminate the verses, which you are unable to grasp, scoffers will never come to a  more perfect understanding because they look and trust for the truth of scripture, elsewhere.

I am going to go over this with you one more time.

Jesus, said "coloir=Red]And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,[/color] (John 10:28),   keeping this truth in mind, as
you read ;

Heb 6
4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Whoever, these verses are speaking of, it is obvious by the beginning of verse 4 and verse 6;

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. If they shall fall away, to renew them again un to repentance;

That, these can never be brought back to repentance.

Repentance is what is needed to come to faith in Jesus Christ.

Everyone who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, has, because they first repented of their sins.

Anyone who has not repented, has not come to faith in Jesus.  In other words, this is what the one,  spoken of,  in Heb 6,  has NOT done..

He has come to a clear  enlightened understanding of the Gospel, he understands he is a sinner, he understands , he must repent, he understands God has provided a way to have his sins forgiven,  he understands the Son of God was crucified for his sins  and that the blood of Jesus is accepted in his place for the remission of his sins, and in order to receive forgiveness of sin, he understands he must believe God and repent of his sins.

In summation of these things, is this person has been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.

And the result of being enlightened of the Gospel,  he has tasted the heavenly gift  

(Note:  vs 5, tells what he tasted , "the good word of God" which is able to save)

It is the Gospel which has been enlightened for him by the Spirit, and it is contaioned in the "good word of God",  just like this conversation we are having now, the truth is contained in the good Word of God, but you are unable to understand it, or grasp it, these although enlightened and having tasted the truth, haven't grasped it, because of the hardness of their heart, refer to Mat 13:19-22, you are familiar with thge passage.

Finally has been made a partaker of the Holy Ghost.

Now I already told you, that their are two meanings to the word  "partakers", when used as a noun, as it is in verse 4, in means "sharer", this individual, was a sharer in the sanctifying blessings of the Holy Spirit, He (the Spirit) enlightened him, and allowed him to taste (experience the reality) of the good word of God, thus he was one,  of many  "partakers" of the Holy Ghost.

This is clearly seen, in the life of Judas Iscariot, he literally was enlightened by the teachings of Jesus, he tasted the good word of God, in as much as he partook of the bread and wine of which Jesus said;

Mat 26
26  .....................................  Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28   For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And he was also made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, when in Mark 6:7-13, he was empowered by Jesus, to minister in the power of the Holy Spirit, he no doubt even cast out devils.

This made him a partaker a "sharer" of the ministry of the Holy Ghost;

Peter said this about Judas, in;

 Acts 1
17  For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

So then, we see that this individual spoken of in Heb 6, was in fact enlightened, was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, and tasted the good word of God, which;

.............. is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.  (Heb 4:12-13)

And, in verse 6, it states "if he falls away" he can never be brought back to repentance.

Judas Iscariot fell away, after all he had been thru following Jesus 3 years, he turned his back on Him, and betrayed him, he was like these in Heb 3, who perished because of   hardness of their hearts, he was not made a partaker of Christ, otherwise he would continued with the others stedfast to the end.

He was a partaker of the Holy Ghost, but never a partaker of Christ, for if he had been a partaker of Christ he would have continued , like the others whom Jesus chose,  but, in falling away he manifested to the world,  he was not a partaker of Christ.

You say, that just because the Holy Ghost was not given, this would have been inpossible, but Jesus himself refutes this idea, since when he spoke to the Pharisees, he rebuked them saying;

Mat 12
26  And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
27  And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.  
28  But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.  

Because they said;  24  ................... This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

When Jesus sent them out two by two, did they not cast out devils, heal, preach the coming Kingdom of God  by the Holy Spirit??

continued--

This then Jesus says is the unpardonable sin,

32  And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Despite, the Holy Ghost's testimony that Jesus was the messiah, Judas who saw his works, which testified concerning who He was,  rejected this truth, and did despite to the spirit of Grace, who by had been sanctified (Heb 10:29), to the hearing of the Gospel by partaking of the Holy Ghost.

Anyone who does not hold to the beginning confidence stedfast to the end, is of those who fall away.

Heb 3
14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Note what do the scriptures state concerning those who fall away;

2 Th 2
3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And again, speaking of the falling away, and the man of sin;

1 Jhn 2
19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

These in Heb 6, were  those who come right up to the way, the truth, and light, took a long hard look, and then turned and walked away, and in doing so sealed their own fate.  Such as it is today, and will continue to happen until the end comes.

"If", like the other Apostles and disciples,if they had continued on in that confidence, it would have been "impossible" for them to fall away, because confidence in the end produces saving faith.

These have rejected the pardon God has been offering to "whosoever will", thats why they can never be brought again unto to repentance. Evidence of this is they have fallen away from that confidence in the teaching of the Holy Ghost.

They were never saved, to begin with, because the Word of God, teaches, that Jesus gives ;
  .................eternal life to all the father gives me, and I will raise him up at the last day. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.  
I and my Father are one.

This is the reason, why it is impossible for true partakers of the Holy host who have been enlightened,and tasted the good Word of God, to fall away.

Because true partakers of the Holy Ghost in the end become partakers of Jesus Christ

I trust this will help you.

Blessings

Petro

Good post Psalmistsinger, for the most part I wholeheartedly agree with you on the points you have made. I like to add; sin is born of unbelief. God told Adam that if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die but the Devil told him he would not. It wasn’t that he ate the fruit that was the sin but that he didn’t believe God that to do so would mean death.  The practice of sacrifice for sin atonement was the act of giving up something to pay for your sins. Each person who wished to have their sins forgiven would have to actively give up an animal (if they had none they had to buy one). This they would do on a regular basis but it didn’t work as we see below.

Hebrews 10
1   For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2   For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3   But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.[/i]

God’s plan was to have a sacrifice that would end the need to have anymore. The one sacrifice that would wash all our sins away from that point on. As in the first sacrifice, the person who wanted to have their sins forgiven had to participate in the sacrifice by giving something up. Jesus did the hard part, he gave himself up as our sacrifice but how are we able to take part in this sacrifice?

Romans 6
3   Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4   Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5   For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Colossians 2
11   In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12   Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13   And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;[/i]

But what if we continue to sin?

Hebrews 10
26   For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6
6   If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/i]

We cannot sacrifice Jesus over and over again for our sins. His sacrifice was a one time only, good for all time sacrifice. So what happens if we sin again? We go to our advocate, Jesus, with a repented heart and ask forgiveness.

1 John 2
1   My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2   And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/i]

However, many of you have suggested that if any man sins then he wasn’t saved in the beginning. So why are there so many letters to the churches of the New Testament exhorting them not to sin? These were letters to the Elect, the Believers. It seems pointless to write to them and warn them of the dangers of falling into sin again if, as believers, they were unable to sin. Perhaps you are saying you can be a believer but not be saved?

It seems to me the writers of the books and letters of the New Testament were warning us of the dangers of falling away for a reason. We are told that God is steadfast in his promises and we likewise should be steadfast in our faith. If there is no danger that we can throw away the promises that God gave us then why warn us of imaginary dangers?

Romans 11
21   For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23   And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24   For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

1 Corinthians 10
11   Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12   Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13   There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.[/i]

I have to ask this even though it may cause this thread to divert from the original topic but I need clarification. All the verses I come up with showing someone falling away is met with ‘they weren’t really saved’.  How and when is someone saved?

They become saved the very second they call upon the name of the Lord.

When is the $64,000 question; here is what Jesus said;

Jhn 3
7  Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


As for how; by purifying ones soul, in obeying the truth (1 Pet 1:22) and giving God and answer from a good conscience toward God (1 Pet 3:21),  only then can the Holy Spirit fill the believer, this is what John the Baptist spoke of when he said;

"he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost," (Mk 1:8)


Jhn 1
31  And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32  And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33  And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Note, verse 31, John says he came baptizing with water, so that He (Jesus) might be made manifest to Israel (the nation), thats all,  baptism by water never saved anyone then nor does anything for anyone today, expect proclaim a desire of the heart of the individual  to be identified with Christ, and then only when done after the new birth, as testimony.

Verse 33, the bapstism with the Holy Spirit is nothing more than the filling of the Spirit of God.

Blessings,

Petro

 

 John 5:24   "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."  

 John 11:25-26  "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"  

Romans 10:9  "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."