ChristiansUnite Forums

Hello
Just got a quite simple question, and believe me, the last thing i want to do is cause trouble and im not trying to offend.
I felt i had to say that as some of my posts have been somehow misconstrued by the moderator.
 
Anyhoo, how do you know that Jesus was not just an average man who thought he was the Messiah. He just happened to get a following etc etc and it snowballed into what we have now. I believe at that time there were quite alot of people who thought they were the Messiah, and may have had a following, a bit like modern day cults.
 I know that you'll say he performed miracles and what not, which, y'know, is fair enough, but being a rather cynical type, that doesn't really hold with me.

Do you just have faith in him? I sure would like to have unwavering faith in something, but im just not that sort of person. Well, i just about have faith in myself, i think.

Um, is this post blasphemous, cause i dont really want to get kicked off the forum, and i have a feeling this thread will be taking off right away. I'm not trying to be mean, nasty, poke fun at Christianity...im simply asking a question. I want to know what drives a Christian.

Anyway, thanks for your time.

On the off chance that you are really asking in all seriousness, then this might help explain it!  :)

"Former presidential counsel Charles Colson tells how his Watergate experience can be used to support the testimony of the first-century men who said they saw the resurrected Jesus.

How do we know that Jesus was resurrected? We have the eyewitness accounts of the 11 apostles who were with Him and, of course, the apostle Paul who saw Him. They were with Him before His crucifixion and for the 40 days between His resurrection and His ascension. They lived for as long as 40 years thereafter, never once denying that they had seen Jesus raised from dead.

What does that have to do with Watergate? I'll tell you. In June 1972, I was home on a weekend with my wife and children. We had a few days off because President Nixon was in Key Biscayne, Florida. My phone that was connected to the White House rang. It was John Erlichmann. He told me that some burglars had broken into the Democratic National Headquarters in Washington. I started laughing hysterically because I thought to myself, "Of all the ridiculous places for anybody to break into in Washington, D.C."

I went away from that phone call shaking my head and feeling a little despair. I thought, "Now we have a campaign issue, but it will go away after the election." Well, as you know, it didn't!

The log showed that in the months immediately following the 1972 election, I was with President Nixon more than any other aide. Watergate never came up. We first started to discuss it in February 1973, when the Ervin hearings started. On March 21, 1973, John Dean walked into the Oval Office and said, "Mr. President, there is a cancer growing on your presidency." That's the first time the President really knew there was a conspiracy in the White House. That's the first time it became a criminal act inside the White House.

John Dean's memoirs record that 3 days after that meeting in the Oval Office he began to get nervous about his own role. That's when he hired a lawyer. On April 8, Dean went to the prosecutors to bargain for immunity so that he would not be prosecuted. In turn, he would testify against the President. Later, he said, "I did it to save my own skin." When he went to the prosecutors to bargain for immunity, it was all over.

Then the other aides started to go in. I took a lie detector test, and my lawyers leaked it to the New York Times. Everybody started to scramble for cover. The Watergate coverup was actually over because Mr. Nixon's presidency was doomed. Now, if you stop and figure it out, you will see that the Watergate coverup actually lasted 3 weeks or less--from March 21 to April 8, 1973.

Now put yourself in our position. Here we were, the 12 most powerful men in the United States. All the power of government was at our fingertips, but we could not keep a lie together for 3 weeks. The most powerful men in the world could not hold on to a lie. So weak is man that we couldn't do it.

Are you going to tell me that those powerless apostles who were outcasts in their own land could be stoned, persecuted, and beaten, some for 40 years, never once denying that Jesus was raised from the dead? Impossible, humanly impossible--unless they had seen the risen Christ face to face. Otherwise, the apostle Peter would have been just another John Dean. He'd have gone in to turn state's evidence. He had already done it three times.

Is it likely, then, that a deliberate coverup, a plot to perpetuate a lie about the resurrection, could have survived the persecution of the apostles and the purge of the first-century believers who were cast by the thousands to the lions for refusing to renounce Christ? Is it not probable that at least one apostle would have "confessed" rather than being beheaded or stoned? Is it not likely that some "smoking gun" document might have been produced exposing the "Passover plot"? Surely one of the conspirators would have made a deal.

If Jesus was raised from the dead, as I am absolutely, intellectually positive that He was--and the evidence of history is overwhelming--it's not only a matter of faith but a matter of deepest intellectual conviction."

Taken from a speech by Charles Colson and from his book Loving God, Zondervan, ©1983.

http://www.gospelcom.net/rbc/ds/q0203/page5.html

I really was asking. People seem to think that when an atheist aks a question, it is in a snide, nasty way. ???

Anyhow, that seems a fair enough point. Anyone want to add to that?

Outside of what is written in the Holy book, nothing is found concerning Jesus, since all that is written concerning Him, is found in the scriptures.  

As John says;

And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.  Jhn 21:25

All that is known and written about Him is found in the Word of God..

Here are but a few, which prove He was not just an average man.

1.  Jesus was born of a virgin, just as it was prophecied in the OT.  (Isa 7:14),  the fulfillment of this is found in (Mat 1:18-25, Lk 26:38) NT.

2.  He was raised from the dead on the third DAY, as it is written in the OT. (Psa 16:10); the fulfillment of this prophecy is found in (Acts 2:22-32, Mat 28:1-10, Mk 16:1-8, Lk 24:1-9, Jhn 20:1-31, 1 Cor 15:4-8)

There are many more proofs, for instance;

He was to be of the lineage of King David of the tribe of Judah, He was to be a prophet like unto Moses, He was to be rejected by his own people, He was to be betrayed by one of His followers, He was to be smitten and spat about by His enemies, He was to die by crucifixion, He was to suffer with transgressors and pray for His enemies, Hes was to given vinegar and gall, They were to cast lots for His garments, His bones were not to be broken, He was to die as a sacrifice for sin.

Presently:  He sits at God's right hand.

Future;

1.  He will return to earth in the clouds of heaven.
2.  He will rebuild the fallen ruins of the tabernacle of David.
3.  He will sit on the throne of David.
4.  He will reign over ALL the earth, as King.

There are many more..............proofs.


Petro

If he wasn't who he claimed to be, then you have a heck of a lot of explaining to do, eg:
1.  How did the church get away with "faking" the resurection?  The jewish authorities would have given their eye teeth to have proved it fake or made up, but it appears they never even tried.
2.  How do you explain the virtually instantaneous complete about face of Paul, from Christianity's strongest persecutor to Christianity's most successful missionary if the road to Damascus story isn't true?
3.  Where did the host of witnesses that Paul refers to having seen the risen Christ come from - were they all lying?  If so, how did they keep the story straight.  

All this was so convincing to the people hearing it first hand from those who saw it, that they were prepared to die horrible deaths for it.

BEWARE Of Wolves In Sheeps Clothing ..........................................

The Crusader
<:)))><

"Anyhoo, how do you know that Jesus was not just an average man who thought he was the Messiah."

Average men have come and gone and some not so average have come and gone. Many have influenced the era they lived in. Some good, some bad, some remembered, some forgotton.

Not so with Jesus Christ. His power, authority and given love continue and continue through all ages. Why? The Bible tells the story of why He is not an average man who thought He was the messiah. He is the Son of God, the Christ, who brings the promises of God to the average man.

"Anyhoo, how do you know that Jesus was not just an average man who thought he was the Messiah."


The answer to that is so simple it may be shrugged aside as too easy.  Any man, woman, or child who desires to know our Jesus, need only ask Him to make Himself real to them, and He will, and in a way that will leave no doubts. Ask Him for yourself athiest, unless your afraid what I say might make a believer out of you.  ;)

1)  Because He rose from the dead.  (You should give that a try sometime.)  ;D
2 ) Because I can feel Him living in my heart.
3 ) Because we talk -  a LOT.
4 ) Because He was sinless.
5 ) Because He fulfilled hundreds of prophecies from hundreds of years earlier.
6 ) Because He healed.
7 ) Because He cast out demons.
8 ) Because He walked on water.
9 ) Because He died for me (no normal man would ever do that!)
10) Because He is God.

Those are the top 10 reasons for me - but I have hundreds of others.  :)

Atheist,

You seem to have legitimate questions here.  I could be wrong, and have been before!   :D  Please understand that in the past, when people have asked these questions from your position, they did not do so honestly.  They did so to cause problems, and the moderator (or Tom as we like to call him  :D ) is simply looking out for such folk.

But in answer to your question, I feel the best answer deals with the issue you have at heart.  Why was Jesus not just an average man?  Because in addition to being flesh and bone, and in addition to having the same potential each of us has...He was without sin:


That makes Him more than average.  But what is the answer that lies at the heart of your question?  Why is Jesus not just another average guy? Because He is God:


You may say that this doesn't say "Jesus" but "the Word."  I'm not going to argue, or attempt to prove what God has said here through the pen of John.  Instead, I'm going to jump ahead of the whole game and ask you, do you believe that this Word is Jesus?  If so, are you willing to believe that this Jesus is God very God?

Why was Jesus not just an average guy?  I answer again with a question my friend...how can God be average?  Do you believe in God?  Well then...


Do you believe in God?  Will you believe in God?   :)

Atheist:

The short answer to your question is "We know who Jesus really is -- the Son of God or GOD MANIFEST IN THE FLESH --because God (the Creator and Sustainer of this universe) has TESTIFIED TO THE TRUTH regarding His Son":

"If we receive the witness [testimony] of men, THE WITNESS OF GOD IS GREATER: for this is the witness of God which HE HATH TESTIFIED of His Son.  He that believeth on the Son of God HATH THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF; he that believeth not God hath made Him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of His Son.  And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life" (1 John 5:9-12).

Just as in a court of law, unimpeachable testimony is held in the highest regard, so also in the universe of God, God's testimony regarding His Son is held in the highest regard.  Christians BELIEVE GOD, and their faith is "imputed" or "reckoned" to them for righteousness.  Therefore they receive the gift of eternal life.

Just as on earth truth is established in the testimony of at least two witnesses, so also in Heaven, the truth regarding Christ is established in the testimony of THREE WITNESSES:

"For there are THREE that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one [God]"
(1 Jn. 5:8).

Now that you have the highest testimony from God's Word regarding the truth about the Messiah, God commands you to repent of your atheism and yours sins, BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, and be saved: "And the times of this ignorance God winked at [overlooked]: BUT NOW COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERY WHERE TO REPENT" (Acts 17:30).


Sower

hi The athiest,

Good to see you are at least thinking about Christ and who he was.

Be careful of the replies that you get as you don't know where they person involved is coming from. There are christians that beleive in Christ's Deity and there are christians that strip Christ of his Deity.

It all depends what you think of Christ....to some he was a man,  to some he was just a prophet, to christians he was God Almighty in the flesh.

to find out more about other christians visit our website and decide for yourself.
all the best,
Yours in Christ,
Halfgospel

"It all depends what you think of Christ....to some he was a man,  to some he was just a prophet, to christians he was God Almighty in the flesh."

Jesus was the word made flesh as the only begotten of the Father.
 God's word shows that it is God's Son that is preached and through whom is redemption and salvation and who we must confess and believe




John 1:14.  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.




John 7:16.  Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
 17.  If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
 18.  He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.


1 Peter 4:11. If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


 Galatians 1:8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 9.  As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Acts 8:35.  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
 36.  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
 37.  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Acts 9:18.  And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
 19.  And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
 20.  And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.


 Romans 1:3.  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
 4.  And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection
from the dead:

1 John 3:8.  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works
 of the devil.

1 John 4:14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
 15.  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.


1 John 5:4.  For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
 5.  Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


 1 John 5:12.  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

1 John 5:20.  And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Ollie



 

I read through the posted responses to your questions and there seem to be two types.

The first I would cover is that of faith.  We believe Jesus was more than just a man - that He is the Son of God, God Incarnate because we have faith.  It is not something we can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt.  It is a matter of faith.  As I have said before here - I can defend what I believe, but I cannot defend why I believe, nearly as well.  Or as I said to you in another thread.  For those who believe no explanation is needed and for those who do no believe no explanation is possible.

However that takes us to the second type of repsonse - that of supplying evidence or reason to support the decision.

The issue of faith in Christ is not without some support and evidence.  If you want some reading on it take a look at "Evidence That Demands A verdict"  by Josh McDowell (I think).

I would add the following point to consider.  If Jesus was not the Son of God then alot of people went to their death to cover up and perpetuate a hoax.  Not likely.  People will do alot to fool others if there is something in it for them, but as soon as the scales tip the other direction and they stand to lose something they back off from their claims pretty quickly.  So at the very least those who were closest to the events truly believed they occurred just as they said they happened.

What did Jesus do in His life that WAS average? All the evidence points to His divinity. There is NO evdience that points to anything else except in a person's imagination. A person's imagination is not evidence.

Having faith in things we cannot see,  

jn20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.



It's hard to believe in a God whom you cannot touch, see, and hear. But He comes to live in the bible and in our hearts. Everything He did was beyond a mere mortal. How do I know it is by faith in what He said and what He has done in my own life.And here are some other reasons that show He is more than a man , can a man rise from the dead? Can a man calm the winds and waters ? or have 12 legions of angels come and rescue them if they asked?  

Jesus was here in the beginnig, He is the word, He is God in flesh,

jn1:1 In  the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


jn1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 
He is the mediator,
1tim2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

He created all things,

jn1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

He is the savior,
1jn4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

He saves lives,
heb5:25 Wherefore  he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

luke19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

 He died and rose again,
1thess4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


 He is and always will be.

 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.