ChristiansUnite Forums

Who ARE the Jews?


An ethnic group?   Religious group?  A race?


If they're a race, are they a different race from the Arabs, or Palestinian?   Both Jew and Arab are Semitic, so how are Jews any different from an Arab?

If we say that they are different from an Arab because of what happened between Abraham and Sarah, then isn't that "religion", since Abraham and Sarah are only known about through the Hebrew Bible--thus "religion".  If that is "religion", then aren't they a "religious group."

If they are a "religious group", then isn't that in itself authenticating the Bible, itself?

If that authenticates the biblical narrative, the "biblical narrative" includes God's promise to Abraham, to make of them a mulitude, and to give them that promised land.

Unless we are going to pick apart the Hebrew narrative, accepting some parts here, but omitting other parts there.

Is it true the use  of the word JEW comes into being about 460bc give or take a few years?

TRUE Jews are the ones who accept Jesus as Saviour and Lord. In order to properly understand it, we would, of necessity, have to enter into a discussion of REMNANT theology.

In terms of who are the REAL Jews, ther has always been a REMNANT according to election in grace. In Paul's day, for example,he is an example of the remnant since he was a devout Jew who accepted Christ. He lists his credentials as being from a certain tribe and sect such as a Pharisee, birthright, etc.

In Romans 11, a remnant will come out of the Great Tribulation who are JEWS and hence "All Israel shall be saved." This is obviously NOT the Church.

aw

Who ARE the Jews?




Symph,

Good question?

Bible answers this explicitly.....

Rom 2
28  For he is not a jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh;
29  But he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the the spirit, and and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Amen.....  I guess we who are counted as heirs are Jews.

Nothing wrong with that..

Blessings,

Petro

So 99% of people who call themselves Jews are not? Idiot.

Rom 2
28  For he is not a jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh;
29  But he is a Jew which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the the spirit, and and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Wow Joan are you calling God an idot?

Read the post I quoted from.

There are definite genetic traits that identify the pure jewish line.   Of course, there are very few jews with anything like a pure line except the Samaritans.

Didn't follow this bit at all, except to say that the Koran says the same as the bible on this, so if it "authenticates" the bible, why doesn't it "authenticate" the Koran.

So 99% of people who call themselves Jews are not? Idiot.

aw: I'll forgive you because you are new, but if you are going to post insults at least have a scripture or two in mind. The bible defines who are  true "JEWS" and if they are not, they have merely a natural posterity which accounts for nothing.

As a believer in Christ, I can come closer to knowing where the 10 LOST tribes are than 99% of the Jews I know. I know quite a few and love them dearly but they are not going to make it unless they turn to Messiah.

Again, Paul was an example of the REMNANT and the EARLY church was mostly Jewish, but the reverse is true today. Tyhe remnant is growing again however and they alone are the TRUE Jews of today.

aw

God's ways are not man's ways and man's ways are not God's ways.

Man can call himself anything he wants. That does not necessarily make them that in accordance with God's inspired word.

"Give no offense; neither to the Jew, nor Gentile, nor Church of God." (1 Cor 10:32)

The 3-fold division is always present. There are Jews who have a national posterity and related to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Today, it is next to impossible to know who all of them are- there are 10 tribes that are still lost.

Not all who are Israel are Israel- only those who have been born again are true or spiritual Israel with the church being comprised of both Jews and Gentiles.

aw

Well, I appreciate the figurative answers, but ebia is closest to what I was looking for---perhaps from just a literal point.


I didn't know there were definite genetic traits---you mean, as even separate from their half-brethren, the Arabs?  Let's see, Hagar was Egyptian, which isn't necessarily Semitic at all--actually, Egyptian would imply a Hammitic lineage, therefore Isaac's half-brother, by Hagar, Ishmael, is actually half-Semitic,(by Abraham), and half-Hammitic(by Hagar).
So most likely the Jews then must have their own distinctive genetic traits.


Okay, another good point, ebia, but I'm not sure I said it didn't authenticate the Koran.  Of course, I doubt I'm going to be authenticating the Koran--at least to where it asks me to deny Jesus' divinity, or where Mohammed is taken up into the clouds....or that I'm suppose to fall down and become enamored at his marriage to an 11-year-old?  Okay, so they borrowed a few bars from Abraham.  ANd Abraham DID have a son named IShmael.  And it was predicted there would be enmity between the two?  But twice there in Genesis God does say he will bless the Ismaelites.

But there's always been enmity between half-siblings--basically over who gets included in the will, and the senority thing.  That's why polygamy is such a  minefield?

But ultimately here I'm just wondering how should a pagan world regard "the Jew"--that is, on what exactly do they base their anti-Semitism--that they're a race, a religion, or ethnicity.

That they have genetic traits would imply that Jews are then a race.

I'm not a geneticist, but thats my understanding, yes.  Of course, there are no racially pure jews (the Samaritans are just about the only group with any genetic evidence of jewish purity) and I doubt there are any racially pure arabs either.


I still don't understand where you are going with this bit.  ???

Prejudice doesn't need firm or well defined base, in my experience.

Yep, but how many who call themselves Jews are genetically very jewish is another matter.  Many have a lot more other genes than jewish ones, having had non-jews marry into their families over the years.  's a touchy subject amongst some of the more conservative groups in Israel I believe.

Dude I don't think the people who call themsevles Jews really care whether  you or anyone else think they are or not. They are "the true Jews" because they practice JUDAISM.

This is a fascinating but difficult topic. To understand it, I think we must forget about what man thinks and concentrate on what God thinks and what is taught in HIS WORD.

Before their rejection of Jesus, the Jews were God's chosen people (HIS own - Israel). Almighty God made covenants with his own, Israel, and God will honor and fulfill those covenants he made, regardless of their rejection of Jesus.

After Israel's rejection of Jesus, things get much more complicated. Some in Israel accepted Jesus and are New Covenant Christians. The Gentiles who accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour are also New Covenant Christians. In Biblical terms, it is correct for a Christian to say they are a chosen people and a Jew, but man will not understand or accept this.

This would make a great Bible Study. Almighty God will certainly fulfill HIS promises to Israel and HIS promises to HIS children of the New Covenant. Petro has already said it, God's children are Jews. In the eyes of men, minus the Biblical teaching, Jews are unbelievers, a race and ethnic origin that can be traced back to the Israel of old. Please, don't anyone get angry about this. It would be a difficult Bible study and impossible for men to understand without the Holy Bible.

Love In Christ,
Tom

It might help if we stuck with what God has to say about it since He is a Jew.

It is obvious that the nation of Israel has been miraculously preserved throughout history and that they are a very special classification of people. In fact, it even says that "salvation is of the Jews."

The question is with regard to "TODAY." Their present sorrowas began with the crucifixion of THE Christ. Their cry, "His blood be on us and our children" of Mt 27:25 has been literally fulfilled. They have been persecuted and slaughtered ever since.

Jerusalem must be "trodden down by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. However, God has not cast away His people. (Roman 11)

There were 2 lines of descendents from Abraham- one as the stars of the sky (spiritual) and one as the sand of the sea(earthly) There is both a heavenly and earthly Jerusalem. National Israel has, and always will, inherit earthly blessings. All promises and covenants to the nation will be fulfilled.

However, ethnicity has nothing in the world to do with it. It is ONLY to those who have ACCEPTED Christ that the blessings belong.

In the Time of Jacob's Trouble there is going to be a wholesale slaughter of practicall the ebtire race of Jews and only those who believe on Christ will be saved as it is the judgment of God against Isreal fir their rejection of the Godhead.

The REMANAT that comes out will form the nation of Israel and hence "ALL Israeal shall bw saved."

Today, only a very small percentage can trace their entire heritage back to Judah. What religion they practice is inconsequential. Than God that the number of Messianic Jews is increasing at a rapid pace.

aw


.

Whew, aw, some interesting thots:

It might help if we stuck with what God has to say about it since He is a Jew.

Hmmm.  :-\


There were 2 lines of descendents from Abraham- one as the stars of the sky (spiritual) and one as the sand of the sea(earthly) There is both a heavenly and earthly Jerusalem. National Israel has, and always will, inherit earthly blessings. All promises and covenants to the nation will be fulfilled.


What 'bout the line of Ishmael?  Is that then a third?

In the Time of Jacob's Trouble there is going to be a wholesale slaughter of practicall the ebtire race of Jews and only those who believe on Christ will be saved as it is the judgment of God against Isreal fir their rejection of the Godhead.

There does appear to be worldwide growing anti-Semitism, with I guess the Nazi Holocaust just a dress rehearsal??

Thank you, aw.  

It would be a difficult Bible study and impossible for men to understand without the Holy Bible.  

Yes, thank you, bep.  Some good points.

Yes, that's a good point too, Joan. Which raises a whole separate bushel of fish.  

ebia:  Didn't follow this bit at all, except to say that the Koran says the same as the bible on this, so if it "authenticates" the bible, why doesn't it "authenticate" the Koran.

I was referring to one of the general three categories that a secular person might classify "Jews" as:  Ethnic, religious or race.  Specifically, I was saying that if a secular refers at all to Jewish history, that is, namely, Abraham and the story of Abraham, then by definition they are then admitting to the religious category or classificiation of "Jew"--that is, that one is a "Jew" by religion, since the religion of the Jew is specifically a historic one.  And that from that story of Abraham, we have unfolding two lines--Isaac, by Sarah; and half-brother, Ishmael, by Hagar--both of course being Semitic by their father, but Ismael being only half-Semitic(half Ham).  And that therefore anyone, as Joan nails it, who practices Judaism, is simply a Jew.

My point was, appealing to Jewish history at all then admits, at the very least, to Jewishness as a religion.  Perhaps my ultimate point was then, a secular then admits to that, then they are getting very close to then what makes a Jew within that context, and that's getting very close to the "chosen" part of their identity--that is, within their religion, they were "chosen" by the "God" of their religion.  And actually, to assert that, is of course the height of presumption--from a worldly point of view--esp. in view of the current growing internationalism, levelling of all playing fields, relaxation of national boundaries, etc.  Unless of course it really is true--if their "God" really did choose them, and "their" God really is "God"?

So for the secular getting very close to the "Jew" as defined historically, is almost unavoidably having to define "Jewishness" as a religion...

Thank you, Petro.  Very good point.  Then Christians, NT-wise, are the true Jew.  Circumcision of the heart.  Romans 2:29  Good point.  Thank you.

But still, my point was more on how the secular world might be justifying it's view of the Jew--or, that is, the thinking (hehe--is there such a thing?) secular world.

It's seeming to me that a Jew is defined by his heritage specifically--separating him from his Abrahamic heritage is impossible, without simply denying that that history is fictional.

Reba, I thot I remembered "Jew" being used pretty early on in Genesis; but I've gone back to search, and can't find it.

But weren't they referred to as Jews in Esther--and when was that?

Oklahoma Howdy to Aw,

I probably put it badly when I used the term ethnic when referring to Jews. I know this is a difficult subject.

I could say a person was of Jewish heritage, but that might be difficult to prove and the blood lines were almost certainly mixed along the way. I guess that God would be the only one to know who the actual Jews of heritage (blood line) are.

Then you have the Old Covenant and New Covenant bloodline Jews who are in various categories (i.e. Christian, Non-Christian).

There are quite a few folks who never had a Jewish blood line who have decided to adopt the religious practices of Judah, but I don't think that makes them Jews by any definition.

Then you have the Gentiles who are Christians and have been grafted into the tree.

I certainly don't explain this very well, and I probably shouldn't have tried. If you wish to study prophecy, you must address several categories of Jews.

Now that I've confused everyone some more, I'll be quiet and let someone more versed in this area explain it.   :D

Love In Christ,
Tom

The scriptures make it plain nad simple direct not a mystery... Man wants a mystery God says this...

 Rom 2:28-29

28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
KJV

Symphony:

That's because "Hebrew" is the proper term for Israelites before the Babylonian captvity.  It is only after the Babylonian captivity that they are referred to as Jews or Judahites or Yehudis. Some Bible and historical  facts to keep in mind are:

1. Israel [all 12 tribes] was a nation under David and Solomon only.

2. After Solomon, 10 tribes split off into the kingdom of Israel and two tribes -- Judah and Benjamin remained as the kingdom of Judah. This was a judgment against Solomon for his idolatry and disobedience.

3.  The ten tribes of Israel were dispersed by Assyria around 740 B.C. for their idolatry and disobedience. These became "the lost tribes of Israel".

4. The kingdom of Judah went into Babylonian and Persian captivity for their idolatry and disobedience around 600 B.C.  A Jewish remnant return under Ezra and Nehemiah to rebuilt Jerusalem and to repopulate Judah.  These were the "Jews" of Jesus' day.

5. The nation of Israel was finally scattered across the face of the earth for their ultimate disobedience -- their rejection of Christ.  Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 A.D. and the the Jews were dispersed [thus the word "Diaspora"].

6. Zionism became a very strong force in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and Jews returned to Palestine to set up the Zionist nation of Israel. However, the majority of eastern European and Central Asian Jews were NOT ethnically descended from Judah,  Benjamin and Levi, but were actually from Central Asian tribes. These were Ashkenazim, but the Sephardim were the true desscendants of Abraham, and were a minority who had settled in Europe while some had remained in Palestine.

Thank you, Sower...   That helps.  Yes, now that I think about it, I think in Genesis, it says "Hebrew"..