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Not Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, nor Post-Trib.


If you want information about this position, I would be happy to share it with you. 

Yes, I would be interested, but only if you don't have to go to a lot of trouble. I've seen the other positions debated numerous times, but I've heard very little about the Pre-Wrath position. The first Scripture I thought of that might support this is:

1 Thessalonians 5:8-10 KJV  8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.  9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,  10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


My personal view is Pre-Tribulation, but I would appreciate knowing more about Pre-Wrath.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Dear Tom,

Thanks for your reply and I hope that your day is going well.  


God has not appointed us to wrath......namely His wrath.  So it is very important to identify where exactly God's wrath begins.

Christians have been subject to Satan's wrath since Christ was here.  His disciples and many of His followers were killed for the sake of their beliefs.  This has continued over time even to this day.  Those who are not God's children continue as children of the devil.....and subject to his influence. They have come against both Christians and Jews on numerous occasions.   Hence, this concept is nothing new and will continue until Christ returns and Satan is no longer prince of this world.  

In the end times, Satan will no longer have access to heaven......will be kicked out......and will be especially full of wrath knowing that his time is short.   (Rev. Chp 12)


Israel was in captivity for grievous sin and rebellion and Daniel was praying on behalf of his people Israel.  He was asking God how long the punishment would last........how long God would hide His face from them.  He was given the 70 weeks prophecy as an answer to his prayer.  The common view is that 69 weeks have past and the final week remains for the final seven years prior to Christ's millennial kingdom.  

Hence the 70 weeks was given to Daniel for Israel.  Whereas, the book of Revelations was given by Christ for the Church.  There are of course overlapping events that are shared in common between the 70th week and the Seals of Revelation......but we should be careful not to view them as one and the same......i.e. identical.


The first two seals of Revelation are actually a bit vague and could have been broken many years ago.  We do not actually have a specific identifier until the 3rd Seal.... namely a day's wages for a loaf of bread.


The following terms are man-made expressions that are not found in the bible:   "The Tribulation Period"   "The Great Tribulation Period"    As such, we should not really be using such expressions either verbally or in our thoughts when discussing the final seven years.  The only biblical expression that defines the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week.  

This might seem like a trivial matter but the fact is the many people learn about the final seven years from TV, books, human teachers, etc. before they even study it in depth from Scripture.  As such they incorporate the concepts into their minds (The Tribulation Period and The Great Tribulation Period) and when they do study the Word they will apply what they have accepted from human teachers when they come across a verse that includes the word:   tribulation.

We are however to translate Scripture in its most normal sense.  Tribulation would be a time of great difficulty..........the length of which is not specified.   To assign 3.5 or 7.0 years to the verse will result in error.  

For example, Jesus is talking about the end times in Matthew 24.  In verse 15 is talks about the abomination standing in the holy place.  He tells people to leave everything behind and flee to the wilderness.  A great persecution is about to begin.  

We then get to verse 21 and 22.  

"For then there will be great tribulation,  such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved;  but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened."

From verse 15, we know the we are at the middle of Daniel's 70th week.  A great persecution is about to begin by the man of evil.....as part of Satan's wrath.  Satan has been kicked out of heaven full of wrath.

Verse 21 contains the words "great tribulation."  A common error is to assign the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week to it.  Many times this is done on an unconscious level.  However as mentioned earlier, it should just be translated as a time of great difficulty.......the length of which is not specified.  


Being thus freed up it is therefore easy to understand how day can shorten those days.......or put an end to them after a certain period of time.   The time is NOT fixed at 3.5 years.   God will stop the persecution when He decides to.  


Moving down to verse 29......."Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened......."

Here again, we just translate this in a normative sense with the words the are presented before us.  As such, we are not forced to place this event at the very end of Daniel's 70th week.  

God will stop the persecution........and then the sun will be darkened for an unspecified period of time.  It could be months of round the clock darkness.  The parallel description is Revelation's 6th Seal.  The great ones of the earth will hide if fear in caves.  Why?   Because they know the GOD'S WRATH is about to begin.

They say:   "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the WRATH OF THE LAMB.  FOR THE GREAT DAY OF HIS WRATH HAS COME, AND WHO IS ABLE TO STAND?"   (Rev 6: 12-17)


This is the Day of the Lord.  It is actually much longer than a human 24 hour day.  It begins with the 7th Seal and ends after the Millennial Kingdom is over.  There are many aspects to it.  It is also talked about in 2 Peter Chapter 3 in reference to when God will burn up the earth and usher in a new one.  So as far as I can tell......the Day of the Lord appears to be approx. 1000 human years in duration.  


Just prior to the 7th Seal......the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm.  Notice that this is not done prior to the First Seal........because the First Seal is not part of God's Wrath.  The 144,000 are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal (God's Wrath).  The 144,000 will remain on earth.  They are later mentioned during the 5th Trumpet Judgment.  The 5th Trumpet Judgment by the way is by itself 5 months in duration.


From the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week, my approx. estimate is that Satan's wrath will run it's course for several years before God puts and end to it.  Then God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal will go on for about one and one-half years.  Then Christ will return with His heavenly army.  

After the 144,000 of Israel are sealed from harm........a great multitude in heaven is talked about.  They are from all the nations.   They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.  They,  according to the Pre-Wrath position,  are the Christians who God has caught up just prior to unleashing His Wrath.  These are the elect (chosen ones) who angels have caught up as described in Matthew 24: 31.


Sadly many Christians will be caught off guard when persecution comes from the man of evil, false prophet, and their followers.  But God has said that when the abomination is placed in the holy place, we are to leave everything behind and flee to the wilderness.  He would not say this only to have those who listened to him perish in the wilderness.  He will supernaturally protect those who are allowing Him to fight the battle for them.  See Rev. 12: 13----17.  

He will take care of them just as He did for Israel as they were fleeing into the desert out of Egypt.  He will protect them, feed them, etc.  See also Psalm 27: 1-5 and Psalm 31: 20 and Psalm 91.

Satan has tried to destroy Israel at many times in history.  In my opinion, he has been trying to interfere with God's promise made to Abraham for his act of faith/obedience.  But God has always preserved a remnant and will continue to do so.  He will defend His holy name and promises.   See Gen 22.  

After the time of Jacob's trouble is over......Daniel's 70th week.....Daniel Chp 12.......God will put His Spirit inside those who He has preserved of Israel.  See Ezek Chps 34 through 39.  These are the physical descendant's of Abraham.  

The Church are the Gentiles who have been grafted into the natural branch after Israel rejected their Messiah.  This is the great Mystery.  See Romans Chps 9 through 11.

In Revelations Chp 12........the dragon is Satan.  The Woman is Israel.  The Child is Christ.  The Offspring are the Gentile Chistians who have been grafted in........the spiritual descendants of Abraham.


"Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.  But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.  So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like f flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.  

"But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.  And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."


Psalm 27: 5     "For in the time of trouble He shall hide me in His pavilion;  in the secret place of His tabernacle He shall hide me;  He shall set me high upon a rock."


Psalm 31: 20    "You shall hide them in the secret place of Your presence from the plots of man;  you shall keep them secretly in a pavilion from the strife of tongues."



 

Hello Brother David,

Thanks - very interesting - I appreciate the information. I copied it for additional study when I have more time. I can already see that I would disagree with many issues, but agreement on Bible Prophecy isn't necessary for Brothers and Sisters in Christ to have fellowship. In other words, I think we should look kindly on those with differences and know these are not Salvation issues. Just for information, there are numerous highly detailed threads on the forum about the Rapture and the Tribulation Period that you might find interesting.

I have debated this numerous times in the past, and I've decided not to do so again. My primary reason is that I feel the time is growing short for the lost to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. I feel led to put my efforts into Salvation issues and building up of the saints. The times are getting more difficult for God's children, and we should know that they are going to get much worse. May God give us all the strength, guidance, and determination to do His Will until He comes to take us Home.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks Tom and have a pleasant week.  May God be close to you always in the days ahead.    David

Israel is back in its original homeland......a major fulfillment of prophecy which few thought possible for hundreds of years. 


The next clearcut signs to look for are:      3rd Seal:   a day's wages for a loaf of bread on a worldwide basis.


4th Seal:   25% of the world's population perishing. 


To my knowledge, the Pre-Trib position holds that Christians will be caught up prior to seeing these things.  So.....if you see food prices sky rocket in your lifetime......you should re-examine your position. 


The escalation in food prices will be primarily due to the elite bankers and their associates wanting to bring down the current system of nation states and usher in a one world government.  They especially hate the USA and all that it stands for.  They own the Federal Reserve and profit from debt, wars, etc.  They intentionally created such things as Credit Default Swaps, Mortgaged Backed Securities, Easy Credit in order to create severe bubbles......and then pop those bubbles.  The U.S. dollar will one day collapse because of our extreme debt.  This will cause world wide chaos, currency problems, and a severe escalation of all commodity prices.  It is already beginning to happen if you check out food and gold prices.   The motto of these evil ones:   order out of chaos.   They create chaos by intent.......and then usher in a new system......one that is to their liking.   These are the descendants of the original moneychangers.......who Christ chased out of the temple. 

Where do you see Daniel 9-27 in your model of the Tribulation Period?

Daniel 9:27 KJV  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see it at the beginning of the Tribulation Period - right after the Rapture of the Church. This is the false covenant that will be broken - oddly enough a 7 year covenant broken in the middle of it - mostly thought to be a peace treaty.

Where do you see Daniel 9-27 in your model of the Tribulation Period?

Daniel 9:27 KJV  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I see it at the beginning of the Tribulation Period - right after the Rapture of the Church. This is the false covenant that will be broken - oddly enough a 7 year covenant broken in the middle of it - mostly thought to be a peace treaty.


Hi Tom         Yes....I feel that the man of evil will probably make a deal with Israel to quiet things in the Middle East temporarily.......probably a land for peace deal.......perhaps giving back part of Jerusalem to the Moslems......the two state solution.  This peace agreement might not necessarily be well publicized.  It may have happened in Sept 2010......I am keeping on eye on events.


Then I feel that something very bad will happen in the world to facilitate Israel returning to the old daily sacrifice of animals.  This would be the Burnt Offering as described in Lev. 6.  They would not necessarily have to rebuild a temple......but could quickly construct a tabernacle to use.

In the middle of Daniel's 70th week, the man of evil will break his covenant.  The abomination of desolation will be set-up......placed......and seen standing in the holy place.  The man of evil will then first go after the Jews.......and attempt to destroy all of them.  Satan has done this in past empires......as with Nazi Germany.  God will defend His Word and Promise to Abraham......and supernaturally protect a remnant in the wilderness. 


Satan/anti-christ/false prophet will then become enraged and go after the offspring......the Gentile Christians who have been grafted into the natural branch.  This terrible persecution will go on for awhile but God will then cut those days short......end them.   

Then you will have a time of darkness in the world..........and the Day of the Lord's wrath announced as described in the 6th Seal.  Then the sign of the Lord will flash across the sky.   The 144,000 of Israel will be sealed from harm and the Christians will be caught up by angels to heaven.  Then God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal will begin.  It will go on for quite awhile as the 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.  Following God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal.......Christ will return with His heavenly army to destroy His enemies and set up His millennial kingdom. 

Hello Brother David,

I view the Great Restrainer as the Holy Spirit of God - not Michael. I don't think that Michael has the power, and we have to remember that the Holy Spirit of God lives in the heart of each born-again believer. In our own way, we are each restrainers - not because of any power we have - but because of the power of the Holy Spirit living in us.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 KJV  5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So, I believe that the Holy Spirit - including the Church - must be removed before the devil can begin his mass deception. Real Christians have the Spirit of All Truth living inside us, and we won't be so easy to deceive. This is yet another reason why I believe that the Rapture is before the Tribulation Period. Ask yourself this question:  can the Seal of the Holy Spirit on our hearts be broken by any combination of powers in the universe?
____________________

Just curious, where do you see the battles of Ezekiel 38 and 39? Keep in mind that there should be significant reasons why peace will be palatable when the Antichrist tries to sell his bogus peace treaty. I personally believe these wars could happen at any time. On the same note, where do you see Bible Prophecy on Damascus (Isaiah 17:1)? I personally believe these wars will be the reason for that false peace treaty.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Dear Tom      I have not really studied the various battles that will occur and am not an expert on them.......other than the one in Rev. 19 and the one that is at the end of the millennial kingdom. 


I actually have an opinion.......just an opinion.......that the U.S. dollar will eventually collapse putting our country and the whole world into a state of chaos.  This would cause Israel to lose a powerful ally and probably feel very much alone in the world.  It could then usher in in movement to the far right in Israel.........and the start of the sacrificial system.......in a sense an act of Israel desperately seeking help from God during a period of world chaos.  There might also be some other events happening as well.......major terrorist events, small nukes going off, food shortages, etc.


As far as the Holy Spirit goes........He is God.... and thus everywhere........not just within the hearts of believers.   


There are many battles that go on between the angels that we cannot see.......but a review of Daniel shows the extent of it.......and how Gabriel had to battle His way to Daniel with the answer to his prayer.  He received help from Michael, one of the chief princes.......and prince over Israel.  He is the great prince which God has assigned to watch over and help defend Israel.   In Daniel 12, we are told that he will stand up (stand still)......and thus no longer provide protection.  This is then followed by a discussion of end time events.......including the abomination of desolation being set up.   

Bear in mind that the 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel for his people Israel.......in response to his intercession.  The 70th week therefore is their final week of reconciliation.  After that, Christ will return and put His Spirit within them.  God at that time will no longer hide His face from them. 

Revelations on the other hand was given by Christ specifically to the Church........to show the Church end times events. 


Daniel Chps 9----12

You brought up a subject most worthy of consideration. The 70 weeks Prophecy was determined against Israel - not the Church. Daniel didn't have a clue about the Church since it was still a mystery.

Dan 12:1  And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The word that was translated to 'stand up' is the same word that was also translated to standeth in this verse. This is saying that at the 'time of trouble' that Michael will be there during that time 'for the children of thy people', not removed.

From this particular source, two different Hebrew words were used.

iomd:    he-shall-stand-up

e.omd:   the-one-standing


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm


In an case, Michael the archangel......the one who God has assigned as prince over Israel (Daniel 10:13 and Daniel 10:21).......the one who stands watch over Israel (Daniel 12:1).......will take a certain action (stand up) which will be closely followed by the worst time of trouble that Israel and all the nations have ever seen.......including the daily sacrifice being stopped and the abomination of desolation being set up in the holy place (Daniel 12: 11)

It is at this time the Jesus our Lord instructs people to leave everything behind and flee to the mountains (Mt 24).


God will supernaturally preserve a remnant in the wilderness.  (Rev 12) 

To my knowledge......"The Tribulation Period" is not found in Scripture.  If anyone can find it......where it is clearly defined as the same thing as Daniel's 70th week......please let me know.

As such, the Pre-Wrath position (and myself as well) view it as a human invention and an addition to Scripture.  You have to therefore be very careful about the use of it. 

For example, the Pre-Trib position believes that the "Tribulation period" is God's wrath and that Chrisitians will be raptured prior to God's wrath.  However, there is no seven year "Tribulation Period" found in Scripture.......all you have is Daniel's 70th week. 

Daniel's 70th week as mentioned above......as well as the 70 weeks prophecy as a whole.......was given to Daniel as an answer to his prayers for his people Israel.  There is no indication anywhere that God's wrath upon the world begins at the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.  You have at the beginning of it a peace covenant between the man of evil and Israel.....which may or may not be publicized to the general public.  Then sometime after that the daily sacrificial system in Israel resumes.........then at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week the evil one stops the daily sacrifice and sets up the abomination of desolation at the holy place.  Then all hell breaks out upon the world.  It is at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week that Jesus instructs people to flee to the mountains. 

So there really is no indication that God's wrath has begun during the first half of Daniel's 70th week.  In my opinion, God's wrath will be clearly evident to all.......and everyone will know that it is coming from Him. 

The Seven Seals of Christ were given by Christ for the Church.   While Christ opens all 7 of the seals, this does not necessarily mean that all seven seals are God's wrath.  The 5th Seal for example involves the cry of the martyrs. 

It is also incorrect to assume that the 7 Seals are exactly the same thing as Daniel's 70th week.  There is nothing in Scripture defining the 7 Seals as being seven years in duration.....and the final seven years.   The first two Seals are somewhat vague........and could have been broken hundreds of years ago.  The 3rd Seal and 4th Seals are specific......and we have not yet seen them. 

If the First Seal was God's wrath........then why weren't the 144,000 of Israel sealed from harm prior to the First Seal?

Instead.......they are sealed from harm just prior to the 7th Seal. 


The 6th Seal announces that the Day of the Lord and His wrath is about to begin.  The whole world goes black for an unspecified amount of time.  The great ones of the earth hide in fear in caves.  They know what is coming.  They say: 

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm.  They will remain on earth.  After this a great multitude from all the nations is talked about in heaven.  They can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.


Then you have God's wrath......the 7th Seal.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration.


So........you have the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week........then Satan's wrath as expressed through the man of evil, false prophet, and man.  After a time God will end this......otherwise no flesh would be saved.  Then you have God's wrath as described in the 7th Seal. 


God has not appointed us to wrath......namely His wrath.   


This is the Pre-Wrath position........which in my opinion is correct. 


God can supernaturally take care of you even in the worst of situations.  He is there to fight your battles for you........just as He did for Israel when they were leaving Egypt.  Let us have the faith of a mustard seed.....the smallest of all seeds.   

I am no expert at languages but just did this out of curiosity.  I went to Google and typed in "English to Hebrew."  I then put the English phrase "stand still" in.......and got a Hebrew word back (in 4 symbols which I am not sure how to put on here).  I then typed the English phrase "stand up" into the translater....and got back the exact same Hebrew word. 

Next I went to Google and typed in "Hebrew word for stand still".   The verb 'amal came up which had multiple meanings.......including both "stand up" and "stand still."


http://www.searchgodsword.org/lex/heb/view.cgi?number=05975


So it appears that Daniel 12:1 can be translated either way and you just have to read the whole chapter to get the implied meaning.


"At that time Michael shall stand up (or stand still), the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people, and there shall be a time of trouble.........."

The Hebrew language is quite complex actually. A number of Hebrew words can be translated into the same English words and yet they have different meanings. It can also work the same way in the exact opposite.  The Hebrew word for “stand still” can be damam which means, “to wait, to be still, depicting the state of being motionless. The Hebrew word yatsab can also be translated to stand still but which is used to mean stand fast as a Soldier presenting himself to his Master. The JPS, Tanakh, and the KJV w/Strong's use the word ‛âmad where it was translated to stand up and standeth. This word is used in Hebrew in the aspect of standing up (to arise) against something as in the opposite of the English phrase 'stand down.'

This shows us that it will be at the time of trouble that Michael will be there to protect the Jews. This is not a restrainer being removed. Keep in mind that there is a difference between the church and those of Israel at this time.

Thanks for the input.  The Hebrew language is indeed complex. 

In my opinion, Israel will not have an easy time during the second half of Daniel's 70th week.  God will reconcile Himself with Israel upon completion of all 70 weeks......when Christ returns.  God will however preserve a remnant during the difficult times of the 70th week to defend His Word and promise to Abraham as found in Gen 22.     See also Ezek Chps 34 thru 39.    There is nothing really good or special about the people of Israel.......but God will preserve a remnant to defend His Word and Holy Name.   Satan will not be allowed to destroy all of Israel.  (Rev 12: 13-17).........as he has tried to do on many occasions. 

Upon reading The Book of Zephaniah, Jerusalem is included in the Day of the Lord wrath from God (Chp 1).  This does not include the 144,000 that God has sealed from harm.  God will preserve a remnant of Israel (Chp 3: 8-13).......a group which is described as meek, humble and who trust in the Lord. 

The faith, obedience, and actions of a single person must never be underestimated........and this is something that should be seriously considered in our daily walk with the Lord.  Though we are but grains of sand......vapor......we as individuals are very precious in God's sight. 

It was because of the faith/obedience of a single man, namely Abraham, that a whole group of people will have a part in the future that God has planned.......both the physical and spiritual descendants of Abraham (Gen 22 and Romans Chps 9---11).

It was also because God was pleased with a single man, namely Noah, that we are even here today.


"Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.  And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.  So the Lord said, 'I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.

"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord."         (Gen 6: 5-7)


Having thus preserved a remnant of His creation..........God would therefore have to humble Himself, put on flesh, to go to the cross for His creation.


Praise God for this great gift of love........for His kindness, mercy, and grace.


"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you."
   

The entire Tribulation Period will be a horrible time for the whole world. The last half will definitely be hardest for Israel, and that's one of the reasons why it is called "The Time of Jacob's Trouble".

Matthew 24:15-22 KJV  When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  16  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  17  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  19  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  20  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jeremiah 30:7-9 KJV  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:  9  But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.


Israel will cry out to God fearing total annihilation, and God will answer with the Second Coming of Christ. This world will be in such a horrible mess that only Christ will be able to restore peace. By this time, 2/3 of Israel and 3/4 of the world population have died. Jesus Christ will subject all things beneath His Feet and He will rule and reign over the earth from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. Israel will accept her Messiah this time, and Jesus Christ will take what is His. Israel will be restored and Jesus Christ Himself will be her anointed King.

Isaiah 2:1-5  The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.  2  And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.  3  And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem.  4  And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.  5  O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of Jehovah.

Isaiah 9:2-7  The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.  3  Thou hast multiplied the nation, thou hast increased their joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.  4  For the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, thou hast broken as in the day of Midian.  5  For all the armor of the armed man in the tumult, and the garments rolled in blood, shall be for burning, for fuel of fire.  6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  7  Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of Jehovah of hosts will perform this.

Micah 4:1-3  But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.  2  And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.  3  And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Thanks   nChrist   for the post and have a nice week.   

Thanks Brother - you have a great week also. I've reviewed many portions of Scripture on this topic and have enjoyed it. I anxiously await His Glorious Appearance.

KEEP LOOKING UP!

Love In Christ,
Tom

The abomination of desolation:


1.  "standing in the holy place....."     (Mt 24:15)

2.  "standing where it ought not...."    (Mark 13: 14)

3.  "and place there the abomination of desolation...."   (Daniel 11: 31)

4.  "And from the times that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is SET UP......."  (Daniel 12: 11)


So we see that it is:         Placed there.......Set up.........Seen standing.


"Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon.  And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.  He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 

"And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an IMAGE TO THE BEAST WHO WAS WOUNDED BY THE SWORD AND LIVED. 

"He was granted power to GIVE BREATH TO THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST, THAT THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST SHOULD BOTH SPEAK AND CAUSE AS MANY AS WOULD NOT WORSHIP THE IMAGE OF THE BEAST TO BE KILLED.

"And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or name of the beast, or the number of his name." 

So it appears that the Abomination is a statue made in the likeness of the anti-christ.......that is given breath......so that it might speak.......and also be able to kill people who do not worship him.   It is placed, set up, and seen standing in the Holy Place.   

The following text also suggests that there will be no NEW BELIEVERS coming to Christ after the man of evil comes on the scene.........at the middle of Daniel's 70th week.  God will send a strong delusion upon the world.  This will probably be somewhat similar to how He hardened Pharaoh's heart. 


"And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.  The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.


"And for this reason, GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE THE LIE,


"that they ALL may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


2 Thess 2: 8-11

When the man of evil comes, he will in my opinion make an allegiance with the ten reigning banking families of the world.  These ten are of one mind.......and they will give their power and authority to the beast.......in exchange for visible rulership of the world with the anti-christ.   The anti-christ will remove three of them.

The following are perhaps the ten:   Rothchilds (London), Rothchilds (Berlin), Lazard Brothers (Paris), Israel Seiff (Italy), Kuhn-Loeb (Germany), Warburgs (Amsterdam), Warburgs (Hamburg).........and the three American offspring:  Lehman Brothers (New York), Goldman Sachs (New York), and Rockfeller/JP Morgan Chase (New York).

Two sections of Scripture pertinent to this are:      Rev. 17: 8-17 and Daniel 7: 23-25


Rev 17 has some interesting features as some of the verses are written for the benefit of John......in his time perspective..........while other verses are written for the benefit of end-time readers......from their time perspective.

For example, verse 10 is written in the present tense when John received the vision.......approx 90's AD:   

"There are also seven kings.  Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come.  And when he comes, he must continue a short time." 

In my opinion, the seven are leaders of countries who have persecuted Israel......and even attempted to extinguish them.  This in my view is a deluded effort by Satan to interfere with the promise that God made to Abraham for his act of faith/obedience.  (Gen 22). 

So when John wrote Rev 17.......five kings had fallen before his time.  The one that is......is the Roman emperor in power during his time.  The one that is to come for a short time in the future from John's time.....and continue a short time......in my opinion.....was Hitler. 


Verse 11 then changes time perspective for the benefit of end-time readers.  "And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition." 

So from our timeframe.......one of the past seven leaders who persecuted Israel will come back to life.  He will be the 8th.........and is one of the seven. 


He will be released from the bottomless pit to come back to this world.  Those who are not in the Book of Life will marvel at the one who has come back to life.  (verse 8)


The only one of the past seven who the world would recognize would be the most recent of the seven......namely Adolph Hitler.  Hitler was able to brainwash nearly all the people in his country.  I have included a link to one of his past speeches.  He begins his speech in a normal fashion but within a few minutes it appears that a demon takes over.  This is probably why he was able to hypnotize so many people so easily.  He mentions in his speech his 1000 year Reich...........a false and evil substitute for Christ's millennial kingdom.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGhdX1SI3KY

In the end times, we see that Satan and his angels will be thrown out of heaven.

Rev 12: 7-9:     "And war broke out in heaven;  Michael and his angels fought against the dragon;  and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer.

(As an additional item......note that Michael is the leader of the good angels)


"So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world;  he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him." 


Jesus also made the following statement in Luke 10:18:    "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."


Would would this sound like.......Jesus making this statement in Hebrew????


"Satan Barack O Bama"   

http://donnettebower.multiply.com/journal/item/1218



As such.....we need to keep an eye on him.  As many of you probably know......there is much question about the legitimacy of his birth records.  And we know from various passages in Scripture that angels can inhabit human bodies.......or appear as humans. 


So Satan might be temporarily inhabiting the body of our current president.......wild as that might seem. 


As I mentioned earlier, I felt that Hitler would be paying us a return visit.......and that he would be the man of evil that requires others to take the mark......at the midpoint of Daniel's 70th week and for awhile thereafter. 


So I am looking for our president perhaps to be assassinated at some time in the future.......or meet his death in some other manner.........and then rise again 3 days later in a Satanic imitation of Christ's resurrection.  He will rise again as Adolph Hitler.......and many in the world will be in awe.......and follow after him.  Satan will move from Obama's body to Hitlers. 


I know that this is pretty wild and that no one reading this will believe it possible.......but at least try to store it in the back of your mind somewhere.  The return of Hitler.....as well as the rest of the chaos going on in the world......could lead Israel to begin again their daily sacrifice of animals.....as a desperate cry to God. 


As an additional item..... 150,000 high level Nazis were smuggled out of Europe near the end of WW2 with much wealth.  Over the years, they infiltrated into high level positions within the United States.......in science, business, politics, etc.    You can read more about this in the book:  "The Rise of the Fourth Reich" by Jim Marrs.............and can also find some interviews with him on YouTube.  This is why our country at this time resembles Nazi Germany in the 1930's..........with the USA progressively moving closer and closer toward Fascism.     President Kennedy wanted to abolish the Federal Reserve, get us out of Vietnam, and put us on a Silver Standard for the currency.   He was killed shortly thereafter.     


The date of the terrible oil spill in the Gulf......the day that it all began......was Hitler's birthday.  We still do not know what the full effects of this will be.........the tremendous amount of oil that went into the ocean as well as the poison Corexit that was sprayed on it.  From what I have heard......the gulf stream has been affected......which could lead to much colder weather in Europe.  The Jet Stream also appears to have altered its usual course.  This and other factors could have an effect on crop production in the future.   


Study the sky sometimes as well.           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kcTvqiMNl8           

Syria and Damascus are included in some end time prophecy.......although I currently have not recently reviewed the Scriptures.  However, the book of Ezekiel would probably be one place to look. 

Here is a recent article about some activity over there and I will be studying more about them in the future.  Obama seems to be loosening things up with them.........although Syria has been a long time enemy of Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/news.aspx/139686


There is an interesting father-son combination who has been in power there since 1970.  The father Hafez al-Assad ruled Syria from 1970 until his death in 2000.  Then his son Bashar al-Asad took over. 

The Father was minister of defense in 1967 and the air force took quite a beating from Israel during the six day war.

The Father comes from an obscure rural location and the original family name was "Wahish."  This translates to "Wild Beast."   He had the family name changed to Asad.....which translated to lion.....when he was in his 20's.  This can be found at http://www.answers.com/topic/hafez-al-assad. 


The son has been ruling since 2000.    Interestingly his birthday is Sept 11........or 911. 

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing with us.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Masonic symbols on our dollar bill:       http://www.theinsider.org/reports/dollar-bill-symbols/


911 and our currency:                        http://www.diamond-jim.com/911folds/


Israel Supreme Court Building:             http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=1229
                                                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjFDQJranVk
                                                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPjv-qfyBlA
                                                           http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFAEZwM2Ezc&NR=1


Rothschilds:                                         http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/slavery.htm

Thanks for the interesting links. I had time to briefly visit several of them and plan to go back when I have more time. I found the Supreme Court building in Israel to be especially interesting. Who knows what else is already built in Israel?

No man knows the day or the hour of the Lord's return.

However, when discussing the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.......some men will know.   Certainly the ones in Israel making the deal with the man of evil will know. 

For this who adhere to the Pre-Trib position.....the beginning of Daniel's 70th week is not really considered too much as the Pre-Trib position holds that the rapture will occur prior to this time.  At least, to my knowledge, that is their viewpoint.

For those who do not hold to the Pre-Trib position......the beginning of Daniel's 70th week is something that is considered a bit more. 

There have been many attempts at peace and treaties over the years......but we really need to store them in the back of their mind as possible beginning points.  The peace agreement between the evil one and Israel might not necessarily be too well publicized. 

If you have some peace activity.......the dates should be remembered.  They should not be viewed as definite at first.......but can be confirmed if certain events occur within the next several years after word.

As the 5th Seal is associated with the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week..........what we would be watching for is the 3rd Seal........and a bit later the 4th Seal. 

The First two seals are a bit vague.  As I mentioned in an earlier post........the Seven Seals do not necessarily have to be squished into Daniel's 70th week.  The Seven Seals were given by Christ to the Church.  The 70 weeks prophecy was given by God to Daniel in answer to a prayer regarding his people Israel. 

While the two will certainly have some overlapping events during the final seven years..........the first Seal might have actually been broken many years ago.  There is no requirement that the First Seal be broken at the exact time of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week. 

The First two seals are a bit general in nature and there is no way to definitely spot them.  However, the 3rd Seal is very specific and has not yet happened on a worldwide basis........namely a day's wages for a loaf of bread.  This will be followed by the 4th Seal whereby one fourth of the population of the earth perishes. 


So what one would do with a possible starting point for Daniel's 70th week?

1.  Pay attention to peace treaties and/or high level meetings between major world powers/leaders and the leadership of Israel.  Then store these dates. 

2.  Then see if this is followed up over the next few years by an explosion in food prices. 

3.  If the explosion in food prices takes place worldwide......you would then look for widespread death. 

4.  Because of the very difficult things taking place worldwide, one would then look for Israel to initiate the old system of daily sacrifice (burnt offerings) as described in Lev Chp 6. 

5.  Then 3.5 years following your starting date.........the man of evil will stop the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination of desolation at the holy place.


FYI:    The most recent peace activity that I am aware of took place in Sept of 2010.  Around Sept 1st, Obama had Netenyahou and Abbas of Palestine visit him at the white house.  He spoke with each one privately.  He also had the King of Jordan there as well as the Mubarak of Egypt. 

Round two of these talks occurred several weeks later on in Egypt and Jerusalem (mid Sept). 

Then a very unusual thing happened.   A U.N. meeting was called for to discuss Mideast Peace.  You can find this at Google......"Obama press Mideast peace in U.N. address (Sept 23, 2010).  What struck me as unusual was that this meeting was schedule at the beginning of a major Jewish holiday.........so Netenyahou could not even attend.  The Israeli seat at the U.N. was empty.  This struck me as a bit insulting to Israel. 

Two major Jewish holidays occurred during the later part of Sept 2010.

Sept 18:   Yom Kippur-----the 25 hour period of fasting and intensive prayer;  on of the most important holidays for Israel;  the Day of Atonement;  yearly atonement and repentance.  This lasted until Sept 19th.

Sept 23:   Sukkot-----The Feast of the Lord;  the time when celebration occurs following the harvest;  7 days in duration;  also known as the feast of booths.....a remembrance to times when Israel lived in tents following their departure from Egypt.

Many significant things have taken place in the past on Jewish holidays........but I will not go into that at this point in time. 

The Rothschilds.....if you research them.....were involved in starting the Illuminati as well as spreading Masonic Lodges around Europe.  They financed and built the Israeli Supreme Court building which is full of Masonic symbols/design as well as occult symbols. 

The Illuminati creed is:  Order out of Chaos.       They create chaos.......and then bring in order

It is part of their obligation to put out warnings to the public prior to their actions.......even if they are quiet warnings impossible for most to see.

As the Rothschild and their descendant banking families control much of the wealth of the world........they also control much of the media and what comes out of such places as Hollywood.  It is my opinion that they sometimes insert warning into their movies and other productions. 

The movie "Knowing" might be one of these productions.  It is inspired by evil as you can see at the end that the world at the end is destroyed...but that two little children are delivered to a new beautiful world.  This is a mimicry of Adam and Eve in the garden.  You also see what struck me as the tree of life......at the very end. 

Evil angels might very well present themselves to those in power as from outer space........and advising them about what to do about this world.......to save it.  In the movie they are presented as aliens who want to save a remnant of humans from the disaster to hit earth. 

The movie at the beginning could have been shot at any Elementary School.  But notice that they chose "The William Dawes Elementary School."   This only shows twice in the movie......for a split second......but you can pick up the name if you are looking for it.  William Dawes was one of several men and women who alerted the colonial minutemen of the approaching British troops prior to the battles of Concord and Lexington at the beginning of the American Revolution. 

So.......here we have a warning......the British coming......namely the Rothschilds, etc.  They are their offspring have engineered the current global economic mess that we are facing.

You will notice include very briefly in the movie is the Gulf Oil fires.......shown on a TV report. 

What caught my attention recently was the date of the disaster in the movie for the world.....namely 10-19-09.  This was related to much earlier work that I had done.......and paying attention to Sept. 2010 as a possible starting point of Daniel's 70th week. 

If you reverse the date given of the disaster in the movie........you come up with 9-19-10. 

Sept 18th and into 19th of 2010 was Yom Kippur........and in very close proximity to all the peace activity taking place at that time. 


So.........I am storing Sept 19th, 2010 in the back of mind........and will be closely examining world events over the next few years.     

Here is an article from today on Yahoo about the Gulf Oil Spill:       http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_sci_oil_spill_lingers


This spill has killed much sea life and apparently continues to do so.  The corexit used is also highly toxic.  There is also some danger of methane gas.  There is speculation that it has also affected the warm waters that normally flow up toward the UK and Europe.  This would result in much colder winters for much of Europe.  The full effects of this huge disaster remain to be seen. 



Date spill began:        April 20th         (also the date of Hitler's birth)


Well officially sealed:     Sept 19, 2010        (possible date of the beginning of Daniel's 70th week as mentioned in the previous post)

My personal thoughts are that there must be a major war first and thus the conditions that are right for all parties to consider peace. I think that had Obama made a peace treaty in 9-2010 that he would have shouted it from the rooftops for political gain. Keep in mind that these are just thoughts. I also think that the Middle-East is ripe for a major conflict at any minute, and that might be the conflict leading to the false peace treaty. I also believe in more literal time frames once the clock starts ticking. I think there's a reason why Daniel's Prophecy is so specific in terms of days. We are living in a time right now where the clock has been stopped - between the 69th and 70th week - the Church Age or the Age of Grace. The Church Age will end when the "fulness of the Gentiles be come in" - the last person added to the Church which is the Body of Christ - a number that only God knows. The Age of Grace will have to end before the Tribulation Period can begin. I don't believe there are overlaps of time, but I understand that many don't share my views.

Regardless, it's a fascinating and perilous time that we live in. As Christians, our part will be to yield to God's Will every day until He comes to take us Home - whatever time that might be.

Here are some interesting topics of study for people to examine to see whether things are just happening in a random fashion in the world........or whether there are forces at work which are not easily visible to the common eye.   Our Lord referred to those rejecting God as children of the devil......namely the current prince of this world....Satan.   He can inspire people under his influence to do much evil. 


1.  The Georgia Guidestones
2.  The Denver Airport Conspiracy
3.  Bohemian Grove
4.  The Annual Bilderberg Meetings
5.  The Rise of the Fourth Reich


A sampler:     http://www.prisonplanet.com/archive_bilderberg.html

Thanks Tom for your input.  God is always there to help us........no matter how big the challenge or difficulty that might lay before us.

Satan has been allowed to be prince of this world for awhile now........and it is therefore important to distinguish between his wrath and the wrath of God. 

Many of the early followers were martyred and this continues to occur in various parts of the world even today.  Human history is full of much evil........evil actions inspired by the father of evil.....satan. 

This should be no surprise to us if we examine history. 

So the key question is:   where does God's wrath begin in the end times???


God's wrath is clearly announced as about to begin at the 6th Seal.... after a period of darkness in the world.  The great ones of the earth hide in fear in caves and state:

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!  For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"   (Rev. 6: 15-17)

God has not appointed us to wrath.........namely His wrath.


The 144,000 of Israel are then sealed from harm.  They will remain on earth.  Then a great multitude from all the nations is discussed standing in heaven.  This is the "rapture."

Then you have God's wrath.......the 7th Seal.......which lasts approx. 1.5 years........the final portion of Daniel's 70th Week.  The 5th trumpet judgment by itself is 5 months in duration. 


The 144,000 of Israel are not sealed from harm prior to the 1st Seal of Revelation..........but just prior to the 7th Seal. 


The terms "Tribulation Period" and "The Great Tribulation Period" are not found in Scripture.  They are man-made concepts that have been added to Scripture.  Those expressions should not be used as they can lead to error when reading Scripture. 

All you have describing the final 7 years is Daniel's 70th week.  The 70 weeks prophecy was given to Daniel as an answer to his intersession for his people Israel.  There is a peace covenant at the beginning of Daniel's 70 week but no evidence that God's wrath begins there. 

The Seals of Revelation on the other hand were given by Christ for the Church.  Although they will share some events with Daniel's 70th week in the end times.........they are not exactly the same things.  There is no evidence that the First Seal must be broken at the same time as the peace covenant of Daniel's 70th week.   The First Seal may have been broken many years ago.   There is no evidence in Scripture that the 7 Seals must be 7 years in duration.

Hello Brother David,

I had planned some more input for discussion, but I'm not feeling well today and I'm running behind on my work. I'll try to do better tomorrow. We're having a rather pleasant discussion, even though we disagree, so I'd like to continue it. The term "Great Tribulation" is found in the Bible, and so it the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" - the same time frame - the last 1/2 of the Tribulation period.

Matthew 24:20-22 KJV  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22  And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Jeremiah 30:7-8 KJV  Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.  8  For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Love In Christ,
Tom

Thanks Tom.......hope that you feel better soon. 


It is important to me not to make anyone upset or angry with my writings........and hope very much to have a discussion that is as free from human emotion as possible. 


As for me.... I did follow the Pre-Trib position for awhile after becoming a Christian in Sept of 1988.  However as far as prophecy goes.........the initial teachings came to me from TV and Christian books.  It was not until later on that I actually began studying just the Word.... without external influence. 


For Mt 24: 21-22..........one would have to drop teachings from one's mind about "The Great Tribulation Period" prior to reading the verse.    It is best to do this because Scripture does not specifically define this as 3.5 years.....to my knowledge....anywhere.    Only prophecy books, etc do this. 


Once a person divorces himself from this concept..........then we would just interpret the words that are in the Scripture..........the words that are actually presented before us.   


"For then there will be great tribulation........."


This should just be interpreted as a time of great trouble.     The length of this time of trouble is not specified in the passage nor anywhere in Chapter 24.   


By not mentally assigning 3.5 years to it...........it is therefore easy to see how God can shorten or end those terrible days at a time when He chooses.


I always had to kind of skip over verses 21 and 22 in the past.............as how could God shorten something which is a fixed 3.5 years? 

Hello Brother David,

Actually, God's Word does give time frames - years and even days of various events - including the Tribulation Period.

Take a look at "End Times! - Footsteps of the Messiah" at the top of this section for a series of excellent briefs on this subject. Daniel's "Weeks" are weeks of years, and we are waiting for the 70th Week (7 years) to begin. Midway into the week is the "Abomination of Desolation in the Holy Place" and the beginning of "Jacob's Trouble" - the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation Period. In the same area, you will find several excellent briefs on the Rapture, wars, Judgments, the Anti-Christ, the False Prophet, the Second Coming of Christ, and much more. Take a look at them and follow along with your Bible.

I've been studying these topics for many years, and I learn something new every time I open my Bible. None of them are easy or quick to study. I think that most will find out fairly quickly why there are various interpretations. I'm still looking at several, but I am heavily partial to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

OK thanks Tom.   I hope that you are feeling better.  There are a few bad bugs going around.  Have a very nice week and stay warm.    David

Thanks! Arthritis in my back has been giving me fits, but I'm trying not to complain because I have too much to give thanks for. I think that most of my recent problems have been due to drastic temperature changes up and down, including some snow and ice storms. I'm over the bug I had, so it's just "uncle arthur" now.

I've been taking another hard look at the ending of this Age of Grace and what it will mean in terms of changes in how God deals with mankind. I have some notes to share with you soon.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I have noticed Tom that sometimes I get into my car a bit too early and find myself with my back pressed against a very cold seat for awhile.  This can cause some problems for quite a few hours afterword.  My wife uses a pad in her car and I have been trying to let the car warm up for awhile.....but sometimes I am in too much of a hurry. 

Anyway......keep your back warm at all times if you can.       Vitamin D, calcium, and magnesium are all good things as well for our bones and have other benefits as well. 


Take Care Tom. 

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I feel that Daniel's 70th week may have begun on Sept 19th, 2010.  That would put us approx. 6 months and 1 week into Daniel's 70th week.


In order to verify this, several things would have to happen over the next three years.  As the 5th Seal of Revelation begins at the mid-point,,,,,,,,,,the 3rd and 4th Seals would have to be broken sometime over the next three years. 


The 3rd Seal......namely a day's wages for a loaf of bread........to my knowledge has never happened before on a worldwide basis.    If this to happen over the next year or so, it would add much validity to the original date suggested.....namely Sept 19, 2010.   If food prices do not explode over the next few years, the theory is proven false. 

The mathematical consideration consists of two elements..........(1) a prediction of something which has never happened before in human history and  (2)  that this event will take place over the next few years.


If you see the 3rd Seal in your lifetime.......this will give you time to prepare yourself spiritually, mentally, etc for movement to a remote location as the Lord has directed in Scripture.  He will take care of you.  There will be many supernatural events taking place during the second half of Daniel's 70th week.


I realize that many hold to the Pre-Trib position.........and I do not want to make anyone angry or upset.  If your position proves correct, then we will not have to be concerned about any of these things.  However, if you see the 3rd and 4th Seals take place in your lifetime.....and you are still on earth.....then this, to my knowledge, would prove that the Pre-Trib position is not correct. 


I only write these things out of concern for my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.  Although I have not met any of you, the Spirit has pressed His love for all of you upon my heart......and this feeling becomes very strong at times.   

Hello Brother David,

A different opinion on the timing of the Rapture does not make me upset or angry. Some of my closest friends have differences of opinion with me. We manage not to call each other names and still have sweet fellowship. The only ones I get upset with are the ones who call names and things like questioning another person's intelligence for not sharing their opinion. I've studied views other than my own for years and still have the same opinion. Regardless, I'm ready for any outcome and know that God will be with us every step of the way if we simply ask Him.

Love In Christ,
Tom 

Hi David,
We haven't met yet because I haven't been here in a while.  I like how you posted your view in a very humble way.  In reading the news I think we are on our way to "a days wages for a loaf of bread".  Scarry stuff is happening and has been happening rapidly and even more rapidly over the past couple of years.
I really don't know which view on the Rapture that I believe, but I have always at least hoped for a pretrib rapture.  I'm ready.  Many of my family members are not however.  I'm sure praying that they come to a saving knowledge of Christ soon.  Whatever view that we all hold, still says that time is indeed short.

Brother Tom often closes with "Keep looking up", and I do!

In Christ,

Yvette

Thanks so much Tom and Yvette for your opinions and input.   We are brothers and sisters in Christ.......and as such we will have an eternity to get to know each other better.  Have a very nice week.


I also have friends and relatives who I am not sure about their relationship with the Lord.  I think that it is very important to pray for them.  I know that in my case, the Holy Spirit was very much involved in convicting me and showing me that I was lost.  Once I was shown by God that I was lost.........I cried out to the Lord to save me.  I thank God for His mercy and grace.........and for removing the blinders from my eyes.  He did this in Sept of 1988.


"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;  and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6: 44

That is exactly how I came to Him also.  Maybe that's how I should be praying for my loved ones!  I usually pray that God would draw them to Him with an urgency and to put people in their lives that would speak the truth to them, because they won't listen to me.  I also ask God to remove the rebellion in their right hand.
But I think it's so true that folks don't call on the Lord until they need Him, so I think I will start added for God to show them how lost they are.  Thanks David!

Thanks much GrammyLuv.


I know for me my life had been spiraling downhill for quite a few months.  I was not really seeking God........but as it turns out.... He was seeking Me.


"......for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."   


"Behold I stand at the door and knock.........."


As a very young child.....I was close to God......but then deliberately sinned at around the age of 9.  After reading and being able to understand the Scriptures at that age.........I deliberately stole some change from a man's pants while at the swimming pool.  That one sin......or perhaps even one before it......the first deliberate sin........killed me.   I then went into a period of rebellion against God......without even being aware of this......for more than twenty years.   

But like the prodigal son in Scripture........God was patient with me......and greatly welcomed my return.  Here is a nice sermon about the prodigal son if you have time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATqJ1azhr_A

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4051918,00.html

I have read in several other articles that they are determined to resume sacrifices, just as Bible Prophecy says that they will.

http://thegoldenreport.com/special-reports/5-the-roots-of-evil-in-jerusalem

I moved from the Pre-Trib to the Pre-Wrath position so many years ago that it is difficult for me to remember all the specifics of Pre-Trib. 


It appears to me from the following verse that the door to salvation is closed upon the appearance of the man of evil.  Who exactly then are the Tribulation Saints as talked about by those adhering to Pre-Trib?


The King of Egypt had been persecuting Israel for quite some time.  Then......even after seeing firsthand the wrath judgments of God.......he would relent for awhile........but then again begin to persecute Israel.  God had hardened his heart.  In the end times, God will send forth a strong delusion.  I believe that it will have a similar affect on those living through that time.




"The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders., and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they ALL (ALL) may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."


Just prior to the coming of the lawless one:   "they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved."


The door to salvation therefore appears to be shut at the time of his coming.......the son of perdition. 


Several years later, the 6th Trumpet Judgment of the 7th Seal will be so severe that one-third of mankind will be killed.

Of the survivors.........how many will come to Christ?   How many are already in Christ?       Answer:   None           (See Rev. 9: 20-21)


"But the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood........

I think that I mentioned in another place that in my opinion Hitler might be the one who "will ascend out of the bottomless pit" and be the end time man of evil  (Rev. 17: 8)

"He is the 8th and is of the seven" (v. 11) suggests that one of the past seven leaders who persecuted Israel will be coming back to life. 


However there are also some current unusual things re. our current leader.  When Jesus said that he saw satan fall as lightning from heaven......he was speaking Hebrew.  I have reviewed articles which state that this would sound to us like:   "Satan Barrack Obama."


For those interested in mathematics:


1.  Our leader was serving in Illinois prior to his election.  On the day when his victory was announced, the Illinois lottery number was:   666.

2.  Just last weekend S and P decided to downgrade the USA credit rating for the first time ever.  Stocks subsequently fell sharply that Monday.  At the end of Monday's trading session:

The Dow Jones was down:    5.55%     (Hitler's party number was 555)

The S and P index was down:    6.66%     (The number of the beast)


The S and P closed at 1119.    Turning this number backward.....the first three digits are:    911.


For 666.........if you multiply it 6 times 6 times 6.........you get 216.   Based on the birth certificate produced for our current leader..........his birthday is August 4th.......the 216th day of the calendar year.   


One possible scenario:   satan has been kicked out of heaven along with one third of the angels.  He is currently temporarily residing inside our current leader.  Our current leader might at some time in the future be taken out.....and rise again three days later as Hitler.  Many in the world will marvel and chase after him. 


"The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and to to perdition.  And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

"And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition."


The ten major banking families that have been running the world since The French Revolution will form an alliance with the man of evil.   They will switch from being invisible rulers to visible rulers with the anti-christ.

"These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet (no visible kingdom), but they receive authority for one hour as kings (become visible kings) with the beast."



 

Brother David,

I'll just say that we're not in agreement and leave it at that. I think that it's fine to agree to disagree.

Love In Christ,
Tom

That's OK Tom......I did not really expect anyone to agree with me.


It is very nice to have this forum available.


Keep up the good work.......you and all your co-workers in Christ. 


David

"And the ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast.  These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast."  (Rev. 17: 12-13)


One possibility for this is ten great international banking dynasties........united..... and quietly gobbling up the whole world for many years.........will turn over great power to the man of evil when he comes.........in exchange for visible rulership over the world as kings with him. 


http://www.prisonplanet.com/corporatism-is-not-capitalism.html

Summary of the Pre-Wrath Position:

God's wrath is very distinct and cannot be duplicated by either satan or man.

The 144,000 of Israel are not sealed from harm prior to the First Seal of Revelation........but just prior to the 7th Seal.  They will remain on earth.  Also at that time a great multitude which no one could number from all nations is seen in heaven.  They are not spirits as they can wear robes and have palm branches in their hands.


First five seals..........a continuation of Satan's wrath which has been going on for many years and temporarily allowed by God.  It will be much worse......as Satan and his angels will have been kicked out of heaven knowing that their time is short. 


5th Seal........Satan will first try to kill off all of Israel.  This begins at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th week.  Christ tells those in the area to leave everything behind and flee to the mountains.  God will supernaturally protect a remnant in the wilderness (Rev 12).  This is not because of anything good about Israel.......but to defend His Holy Name and Promise made to Abraham for his act of faith and obedience (Gen 22).   Satan will then become enraged and go after the "offspring"......the Gentile Christians who have been grafted into the natural branch.  This severe persecution will go on for awhile and then God will cut it short (end it).......otherwise no flesh would be saved. 


6th Seal:   Worldwide darkness for an unspecified period of time.  The elites of the world hide in fear in the mountains and caves.  They declare that God's wrath is about to begin.


Then......the 144,000 are sealed from harm and the Christians are caught up by angels to be with the Lord.


7th Seal:   God's wrath.........the trumpet and bowl judgments........comprising approx. the final one to two years of Daniel's 70th week. 


Christ instructs people to flee to the wilderness...........and also that friends and even family members might turn on you after the man of evil is revealed. 

Scripture suggests the God will take care of you supernaturlly in the wilderness.......in a way similar to how He delivered Israel from Egypt.........and how He fought for David the teenage shephard against the giant.

Faith (in advance) is very important in this regard.......taking that first step of faith and letting God do the rest.


Psalm 27: 5
Psalm 31: 20
Psalm 34: 7
Psalm 91


After Christ returns........the 70 weeks of years will be over.  The time of punishment will be over and God will no longer hide His face from Israel.  God will put His Spirit inside of all those of Israel who remain (Ezekiel Chps 34---39)

Christ (written approx. 480 B.C.):

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication;  then they will look on Me whom they have pierced;  they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn."  (Zech 12: 10)


Israel's words of repentance upon Christ's return:   Isaiah 53: 3-9.......written 700 B.C........past tense used.......a prophecy of future events that will take place.......Israel looking back to the cross.......mourning.......and realizing what they have done.