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I hope I don't get in trouble for bringing up such a controversial topic, but what do you all think about abortion?  I used to be pro-choice, until a school assignment forced me to look into the matter more closely. When I did more research about what actually goes on in the clinics, I changed my mind. Now more than ever (in an election year) when there are many small lives involved, people need to see the truth, and to those who are mistakenly holding the belief that abortion is like having a tooth removed in simplicity and are thus pro-choice (like I was) or who are on the fence, or who are pro-life but not doing anything about it to look at some of the information. I have a site which is full of stories from current and former abortion doctors and clinic workers who reveal instances of shoddy medical conditions, the deception of women as well as the cruelty of abortion to babies. Its at http://clinicquotes.topcities.com (http://clinicquotes.topcities.com)
Below are a few of the quotes from the site.
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From "Abortion at Work: Ideology and Practice in a Feminist Clinic" by Wendy Simonds. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1996 - Simonds is pro-choice, but she did include a chapter on how the clinic workers coped with processing abortion "tissue." i.e. the dead babies. Here are some quotes from the clinic workers:

"You're going from dealing with people to dealing with what most people here at the Center consider a real hurdle, to do sterile room, because you have to deal with the actual abortion tissue. And for some people, that's really hard.."

"It's just- I mean it looks like a baby. It looks like a baby. And especially if you get one that comes out, that's not piecemeal. And you know, I saw this one, and it had its fingers in its mouth...it makes me really sad that that had to happen, you know, but it doesn't change my mind. It's just hard. And it makes me just sort of stop and feel sad about it, the whole necessity of it. And also....it's very warm when it comes into the sterile room because it's been in the mother's stomach. It feels like flesh, you know..."

"You're looking between the woman's legs; you're seeing, you know, what the doctor's doing. And it's what a lot of people would call kind of, I guess, gruesome- that's not really the word because- it's identifiable. I mean, when he...takes the forceps and pulls out a foot, you can see the foot, and my reaction- because I feel so strongly that women who want to have a twenty week abortion should be able to have that- but I mean when I look and was just like, you know, my first reaction was, you know, I was pretty horrified."

"So by it looking like a baby, you're associating it with yourself because...you used to be a baby, you used to be a fetus."

"...when you're, you know, putting a fetus's feet in over its head in a baggie, there's just this brief moment of "This could have been me," which I fundamentally believe is okay. She should have the right to choose..."

"...it looks like a baby, That's what it looks like to me. You've never seen anything else that looks like that. The only other thing you've ever seen is a baby...You can see a face and hands, and ears and eyes and, you know...feet and toes...It bothered me real bad the first time..."

"I think the tough part was seeing actual pieces of fetus being removed..And in the beginning, yes, I remember looking, standing behind this woman's shoulder [as she performed an early second- trimester-abortion] and thinking, "I can't do this...There's something emotionally upsetting about this..Features are discernible; you can count five fingers on a hand and five toes on a foot. You know, all the organ systems are formed. You know, you can see ears as structures, and the nose and eyes as structures...I have gotten to the point now that because I've been doing this work five months, four months, I look at it a little differently. I don't see the same things that I did. And, honestly, when I sit down to do one of these now, I am watching to be sure that I'm getting everything that I need to get. It's 'Do I have two lower extremities? Do I have two upper extremities? Is there a spine? ...and the skull?...It does become a bit routine after a while. I don't fear it."

"I hate it when people put it together to look like a baby. I hate that...I don't want to look like it when its like that because it's like a broken doll, and that grosses me out."
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After an abortion, the doctor must inspect these remains to make sure that all the fetal parts and placenta have been removed. Any tissue left inside the uterus can start an infection. Dr. Bours squeezed the contents of the sock into a shallow dish and poked around with his finger. "You can see a teeny tiny hand' he said.

--abortion clinic worker quoted in "Is the Fetus Human?" and in Dudley Clendinen, "The Abortion Conflict: What it Does to One Doctor" New York Times Magazine Aug 11 1985 p 26
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In the book "Abortion: Debating the Issue" (New York:Enslow Publishing, Inc., 1995) Nancy Day quotes abortionist Dr. Ed Jones, who had worked at a Planned Parenthood Clinic for 4 years at the time of the interview, saying the following:

"This can burn you out very, very quickly...not so much by the physical labor as the emotional part of what's going on. When you do an ultraound, particularly if you have children, and you see a fetus there, kicking, moving, living, doing things that your own child does, bringing it's thumb to its mouth, and things like that- it's difficult. Then, after the procedure, sometimes we have to actually look at the specimen, and you see arms and legs and things like that torn off...It does take an emotional toll."
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"It is when I am holding a plastic uterus in one hand, a suction tube in the other, moving them together in imitation of the scrubbing to come, that woman ask the most secret question. I am speaking in a matter-of-fact voice about 'the tissue' and 'the contents' when the woman suddenly catches my eye and says 'How big is the baby now?' These words suggest a quiet need for definition of the boundaries being drawn. It isn't so odd, after all, that she feels relief when I describe the growing buds bulbous shape, its miniature nature. Again, I gauge, and sometimes lie a little, weaseling around its infantile features until its clinging power slackens."
--abortion worker Sallie Tisdale "We Do Abortions Here" Oct 1987 Harpers Magazine p 68
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"Counselors are just to give the appearance of help. . . [They] think of themselves as company for the women."
--abortion counselor

"I have never yet counseled anybody to have the baby. I'm also doing women's counseling on campus at Albany State, and there I am expected to present alternatives. Whereas at the abortion clinic you aren't really expected to."
--abortion counselor

Rachel Weeping and Other Essays About Abortion. James Tunstead Burtchaell, editor. New York: Universal Press, 1982
--------------------------------------------------------------------------"Vital signs should be observed regularly, and a Doppler [for listening to the fetal heartbeat] inaudible to the patient should be used at intervals to determine the presence or absence of fetal heart tones.. This [informed consent] is a controversial area, but most professionals in the field feel that it is not advisable for patients to view the products of conception, to be told the sex of the fetus, or to be informed of a multiple pregnancy."
--Abortionist Warren Hern in "Abortion Practice" J.B. Lippincott Company, 1984 pgs 145 and 304
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"Sonography in connection with induced abortion may have psychological hazards. Seeing a blown-up, moving image of the embryo she is carrying can be distressing to a woman who is about to undergo an abortion, Dr. Sally Faith Dorfman noted. She stressed that the screen should be turned away from the patient."
--"Obstetrics and Gynecology News" editorial February 15-28, 1986
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"I was trained by a professional marketing director in how to sell abortions over the telephone. He took every one of our receptionists, nurses, and anyone else who would deal with people over the phone through an extensive training period. The object was, when the girl called, to hook the sale so that she wouldn't get an abortion somewhere else, or adopt out her baby, or change her mind. We were doing it for the money."
--Nina Whitten, chief secretary at a Dallas abortion clinic under Dr. Curtis Boyd
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I am 100% against abortion. Thanks for the good message.

Your friend and brother

The Crusader

<:)))><

DeLenn,

Abortion is murder. Period!

For a number of years I spent countless hours in front of abortion clinics, protesting and counselling women. I can tell you first hand ,that most that work in the clinics are very hard hearted. Most are in denial that they are really killing babies. Many have had abortions themselves. The anti-life folks will tell you it's all about the women. But in honesty it's really about the money. If abortion was so great for women, and they were really that sympathetic, why don't they donate their services?

A number of years ago, there were some women who went undercover into an abortion clinic. The clinic (which is now closed) was reusing the urinal speciman cups. A veternarian clinic is more regulated than a clinic.

Roe v Wade was all based on a lie. "Roe" who's name is  Norma McCorvey was never raped, but rather, she bore a girl child who was adopted. Norma is now fighting to reverse Roe v Wade.

A great resource of information is Life Dynamics. They document the horrrific practices of the abortion industry.

http://www.ldi.org/

Psalm 119

Amen, thanks for the link Psalm 119

Your friend and brother

The Crusader

<:)))><

A picture is worth a thousand words:

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion1.htm

Psalm 119

Thank you for this link!  :)
From this site:

If you're wondering where abortions are being done in YOUR state..... >:(

("Abortions are available in all fifty states. Please choose a state below to find an abortion provider near you.")

http://www.abortion-clinic.com/ (http://www.abortion-clinic.com/)


One of those thousand words (no - million words) pictures (note the GARABGE/TRASH can!):

(http://www.holylamb.com/images/abortion/garbage.gif)

Abortion is murder for hire. The child is killed and the spirit of the mother is also killed.

I have lost at least 2 grandchhildren to the butchers. Their would be mother is lost someplace in the drug world.

Many young girls are victums of the lies  ... One i knew personaly had night mares for years of babies crying... her dad pressured her into an abortion so the baby could nto ruin her life? Babies dont ruin lives they change lives. Adoption a wonderful option.

Absolutely right yal...MURDER. No way around it. Doesnt the Lord say you shall not take a life? NO One should play GOD!

Sincereheart, believe it or not, when I saw your picture I started to cry! How sad!!!! :'(

I worked in a Hosp. I used to see the gals come in & seek a Dr who would perform abortions...Its sickening :(.....All the millions of murdered babies. I wouldnt want that on my hand when I see my Savior!!

*To those ppl who say it isnt a life, just and FYI....There is a heartbeat at 4 weeks OLD! ~Heartbeat~, Id say that is Life.  :'(

This was discussed in another thread, though with less detail:
http://forums.christiansunite.com/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=2436;start=msg37062#msg37062
(If the link doesn't work, its "Do you wonder", under You Name It)

More children were aborted on September 11, than people who died in terrorist attacks.

America is a puzzling country; we pay billions of dollars to keep our children safe, to educate them, to give them medication and counseling and all we are able to give. The recent birth of Michigan's first sextuplets is costing the family nearly a million dollars already (mostly hospital bills), despite generous gifts of baby food etc. by local businesses.
Another side of America is destroying the same precious things that other people risk their lives to protect. I guess I don't understand.  :'(

Ok, a little story to tell...

My mother got pregnant with me at 14.  She was 15 when I was born.  This was 1977 and abortion was legal, however, it was NEVER an option.  Her parents said she could (a) have the baby (me) and give it up for adoption, (b) have the baby and give it to them to raise as their own, or (c) have the baby and raise it herself.  Well, she chose option "c" and married my biological father and with the help of those strong Christian parents raised me as best they could.  Was it a sin for her to lay with a man and get pregnant in the first place?  YES!  Was she a Christian?  YES!  Has she been forgiven?  YES!  But you know what...EVEN FORGIVEN SIN HAS ITS CONSEQUENCES.  You dance, you pay the fiddler.

Abortion is 100% wrong...the Bible says "choose life"!  We are "fearfully, and wonderfully made", "knit together in the secret place".

Christians and pro-lifers need to take a stand, take action wherever and whenever you can.  There is a movement to get these great new ultrasound machines in pro-life clinics, if your church takes up a special donation for that, think about sending them your tithe.  

We need to remind these abortion-minded women that even if their child is born retarted, handicapped, hiv-positive, no legs, no arms, deformed, blind, deaf, drug-addicted...there is a family that will rejoice in having those children.  Adoption should be the alternative to abortion (aka murder in the 1st).

Don't kill the innocent!  If my mother had done what was legal, I wouldn't be here.

Personally I think it is the individual's choice. Whether I'd have one....I don't know, the issue has never come up and I doubt is likely to.

Broken,

 Why ever is it anothers choice to kill an innocent ?  When does the childs right to life begin?  

When they are born, Reba.

A person's sins are between them and God.

The unborn child has no right to life? Interesting why do you believe so?

No independent life.

 So would you would allow the new born to lay there and die. He/she cannot feed themselves.  Think hard how indepentant are you?

 Sins are between man and God? So if a person robs you or beats you, you  wont file a complaint?

Broken,

You need fixed! And only Jesus can do that.

Please go back to the link on page 1, and look at the pictures of the aborted babies. IF you really believe it's ok to dismember little boys and girls, than your heart is cold as ice.

Remember we were all just fetuses at one point in our lives. And it's wrong to murder an innocent child no matter what stage of development that may be at. As a society if we continue to kill the innocent, weak, and infirmed, one day we will see Nazism revisted in this country. ( Nazi type death camps are now is North Korea....the victims? many Christians and their children)

Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Psalm 119

Abortion is murder.
Period.

Murder, murder, murder, murder - now repeat that word about 10 million times and you will have uttered the number of unborn babies murdered in the last 30 years.  The BIGGEST travesty in history, bar NONE.

 

Just maybe the thoughts of this  thread have someting to do with your posts above.

You are part of killing children from here all i can do is ignore you.

Emma -
FACT:  The Lord Jesus loves you.

Broken,

If you belonged to Jesus, you would obey His Word, and believe every word that is written in it.

You need to repent of all the sins you have committed against Him. You need to repent for not believing that God alone is the author of life. He states in Psalms 139 that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. It is He who fashions us in our mothers womb. In Jeremiah 1:4-6, the Word states that He knew Jeremiah before He ever formed him in his mother's womb. God knows all of us before He ever forms us.

God's Word is also very clear that murderer's have no inheritance in the kingdom of God. That includes anyone who has taken an innocent life.

Broken, you have made yourself "wiser than God". Your mindset has been formed by the world, not the Word.

Seek the Lord!

Psalm 119

Psalm 119,

James 4:12  There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?  

One who does not stand for the right to life makes himself out to be judge  and exacutioner. Hold your ground psalm 119.

The meek and lowly mouse is showing some teeth. Yes  you will be ignored. But i will read the thread so dont get the big head. To me you are the same as the ones who killed my grandchildren.

Broken .. I'm not going to attack you or put you down. I think all that just causes a person to be more bitter & certainly doesn't change how someone feels. I know that some people like to argue that a fetus isn't a baby until it reaches a certain stage .. but if you read Gods holy word, & the bible doesn't lie .. in Jeremiah 1:5 it says " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you "... also in Psalm 139:13-16 ... "For you created my inmost being, you knitted me together in my mothers womb. I praise you because I am fearfully & wonderfully made.. your works are wonderful, I know that full well. My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body". So clearly God wouldn't care about just a blob of tissue, only a real person that He Himself formed. And Reba, God also forgives those who have had abortions (thankfully) if they ask for His forgiveness .. I don't think it's right to judge someone who has had abortions.. if anything, pray for this lady who aborted your grandchildren (even though you might be angry or hurt by what she did .. forgive her as Christ forgave you) .. & maybe sincerely stand in prayer that she comes to know Christ herself even if she's messed up in drugs, you might be the only person praying for her you know? God bless, Lite
(Broken .. can you translate what you write at the end of your posts? Just curious :) )

I've deleted most of my messages from last night, as I was not in a reasonable state of mind when I wrote them.

So, here are my reasons why I support legal abortions.

My view is simply that people do have the right to choose. That does not mean I would so choose, nor that I think it is a good option. If I could change the world, I would change it so that there was no need for abortion. Personally, should I ever become pregnant and did not want the child, I can think of only one reason why I would ever have an abortion, and that would be on the grounds of disability. When I say disability, I am not thinking of things like blindness, or Downs syndrome, or anything like that. I am actually thinking of someone I knew. Imagine a newborn baby, condemned to say, 40 years of agonising pain. Unable to speak, walk, hear, communicate, hold any form of independent life forever, knowing no emotion and no feeling other than pain. The child I knew would never have lived if it was not that doctors made extreme efforts to save her life. There is such a thing as a natural abortion, and babies who are terribly wrong die. This child did not, and was condemned to a terrible life for that. My auntie, who is a midwife and extremely pro-life, used to say that they had a saying: Thou shalt not kill, but thou shalt not officiously keep alive. There are times when a child would naturally die, and whether you call it nature or call it God who ordains that, He knows best. If I became pregnant and knew that the child would suffer as that girl suffered, I would have an abortion - and I would have it even if I knew eternal damnation would be the result. I would not condemn a dog to that life, much less a human.

That is the only circumstance in which I personally would have an abortion.

As for other people: my response is based on pragmatism. People have always had abortions, and will continue to have them, and I would far rather they at least did not run the risk of dying while attempting to abort the foetus. People make their own choices, and I am against anyone trying to make other people's decisions for them. I hate it if someone does that to me: why would I do it to someone else? People ought to be able to make an informed choice, yes, hold all the options in their hands to choose from. If they then choose to have an abortion against the other options, then it is their decision, and ultimately, it is between them and God.

As I said above, I do not think abortion is some great thing: it is not. It is a measure of last resort, and one that in a perfect world, would neither be needed nor wanted. I do think we should take steps to reduce the number of abortions, but not by banning it. I would not protest outside a clinic either, nor petition the state. My view of how we as Christians approach political/state issues like this is perhaps a little different to others' here. I would take a passive rather than an active approach. Instead of protesting outside abortion centres, and frightening people who are in distress, and instead of petitions and campaigns to the ruling authority, I would try to stop the need for abortions rather than them themselves.

The first thing I would do is have proper sex education in schools. The sex ed I had at school was truly appalling - all we were told was that men were like animals and if you wore a short skirt and got raped, it was your fault. Thats it! Kids in school should firstly not be taught sex ed by a teacher - its embarrassing for them and its embarrassing for the teacher. Get a specialised nurse in, someone who doesn't get embarrassed and teaches only sex ed. Explain about abstinence, and about contraception (don't, for heaven's sake, just assume people will not have sex because you have told them about absintence!) and about the alternatives to abortion, including things like money - how they could afford to bring up a child, for instance. Adults, too, need sex ed - though that would consist more of making sure that magazines carry responsible messages in both their normal pages and their agony aunts pages (which, to be fair, they normally are ok at) and producing health leaflets that are actually interesting to read. Reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and you will reduce the number of abortions. Do it right, do it well, and we might get rid of them altogether. That is how I would do it. And it would also have the advantage of changing the image of the pro-life movement to a more positive one (can you imagine how many people have ignored what pro-lifers have to say because of how they are perceived? PR is important, even though it is often misused).

So there you have it: I do not unconditionally support abortion. You cannot call me pro-abortion - what I am is pro-choice, or rather, pro-informed-choice when there is no other option left for the person. What people choose to do when they know everything, is between them and God, I am not in control of them or what they do, and neither do I wish to be.

::Emma::

Lite,

The quotation in my signature is from Caedmon's hymn, in Old English:


Let us now praise the ward of heaven's realm,
the might of the soul-father and his heart's thought,
works of the glory-father,
how he established the beginning of every wonder,
eternal Lord.

Supporting the killing of a unborn child, in any mannor is to be pro abortion. Man can call it by pretty words like 'choice' but the choice is to kill the innocent.

Reba,

You may call it pro-three-headed-flying-pigs if you choose to do so.

Broken are you a Christian?

I hope so, Kris

Broken,

Any person who believes it's ok to murder little boys and girls in the womb are not born again. For anyone who would kill/ or even suggest/ that it's ok to do so, does not know the Author of Life.

I take it that you are from England or Austrailia? Allow me to give you a run down on how things work here in America.

1) Abortion is legal in our country until the moment of birth. A woman can actually be in labor, and have her baby aborted. As long as it's body does not pop out totally, it can have it's brains sucked out,  body parts harvested, and body discarded to a dumpster or a lab. In Wichita Kansas, there is a clinic who has an incinerator, that cremates the baby. I have personally seen the smoke stack ( reminds one of Nazi Germany)

2) Women in our country are sold abortions, like one would buy cosmetics. It's a high pressure business operation. Their business is not to offer a women a "choice", but an abortion. Abortions range from several hundered dollars to thousands. Our family housed a woman in 1990 who was going to have an abortion at 7 months. When she got to the clinic they told her the abortion would be $2400.00. Although, the clinic accepted cash or credit cards, they would not accept her mother's Discover Card (praise the Lord!). To make a long story short, this precious young women who came to know the Lord, now has a 13 year old son, who has been the joy of her life. If she had gone through with the abortion, her life would have taken another turn. She would be living with the guilt of murdering her child.

3) Many abortionists in our country have serious psychiatric disorders(demons), and/or criminal behaviors. Recently in Arizona, there was an abortionist who was convicted and sentenced to 30+ years for molesting his patients. Some are child molestors, others are addicted to pornography and drugs. One should not be suprized, that making a living by killing ,would make one go mad. (Is this the type of "Dr" you would want to go visit?)

4) Abortion clinics are the largest unregulated business in America. A veternarian clinic has more restrictions.

Broken,

Has the word "abstinance" ever come to mind? It's 100% effective against pregnancy and STD's.Sex outside of the marriage covenant is prohibited by God, and it's for our own good. Millions of babies would be saved yearly, if this "non government program" was implemented.

Broken,

If you have bought the lie and had an abortion, there is hope and forgiveness in Jesus Christ. But you must go to Him and ask for forgiveness and healing. Be honest before the Lord God, and call abortion what He calls it; murder.If you do that, He will cast your sins into the sea, and you will be given a clean slate. Your name will be written down in the Lambs Book of Life.

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Your loving kindness; according to the multitude of Your tender mercies. Blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. Against You , You only have I sinned, and done this evil in Your sight.....

Psalm 51:1-4 (please read remainder of chapter)

Psalm 119

Christians can make bad decisions at times. If everyone were excluded from salvation each time they thought or did something wrong...I sure wouldn't be in heaven.  :'(

Please don't judge Broken. I'm not saying I agree with all her views. Pray for her and encourage her. She's going through a rough time right now.
(http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/joysong/kittenfriends.jpg)

Willowbirch,

It would be a great disservice to not tell Broken the truth.It is the TRUTH that sets someone free. It is when someone confessess AND forsakes their sins that true deliverance takes place.

God's Word is what judges a man. When the Word says...."thou shalt not do so and so" and another Christian repeats what God says, that is not judging. Friend, that is trying to save someone from the fires of hell.

Option #1 Let's all be nice to Broken, and let her continue to believe a lie that's it's ok to kill babies. We don't want to offend her, after all what's 45 million dead babies anyway?( that's how many have died in America since 1973)

Option #2 Tell Broken the truth that abortion is murder, and urge her to repent of her sins, and follow Jesus Christ.

Psalm 119

I believe abortion is murder.
When I was 20 I was raped...also, I was w/ my husband (well, he wasn't at that point) after that.  To this day I have no clue who my child's dad is.
I know we say we NEVER know until we are faced w/ that decision.  I have to say, I wanted that child since I KNEW it was forming inside of me.  I had EVERYBODY telling me to get an abortion...except for my dad and aunt.  I had a full scholarship to an AWESOME college...was going into the medical field...but I gave that up(private college) to have my child and have NEVER regretted it.

A Mothers heart Dovewings..

Dovewings,

What a wonderful testimony of God's providence in your life.

I know the rape question comes up with people for an excuse to take a child's life. My question to them is this,"should a child die for the sins of the father?"

Also an abortion does not "unrape" the mother. If she has an abortion she is actually being raped a second time.

Dovewings, giving birth to your child was the right thing to do!

Blessings,
Psalm 119

TY :)  A lot of ppl asked me why I just didn't "get rid of it" b/c it would be a painful reminder...but I was like, this would not have happened unless God had an ultimate plan for this childs life.  
I would NEVER change a thing!!!

Every person is planned..so NO person(unborn child included) is a mistake...IMO

God bless!!!

Broken, what a horrible thing to say :(. It is NOT their choice by any means. They have no right to take an INNOCENT life! To have a right to murder Gods creation?
When someone stands before the Lord thy God, is that what they will say? "It was my choice God to kill hi/her...so you have no say God...".....Um, just personally-I dont think so! :(

I thought I'd share this too....

A cousin of mine had an amnio done...well, it came back that the said child was going to be completely deformed.  The docs all advised her to get an abortion.  Well, she didn't and the child was/is PERFECTLY NORMAL!!!  Not all tests are 100%.  God has a plan and a purpose for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE of us...born and unborn...so it is let HIS will be done.  There is a purpose and a lesson learned from EVERYONE...be it newborn or old.

As for ppl going out to get abortions and running the risk of dying from them...they KNOW the risk.  

I know it's between them and God, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in their shoes ...

I've been to schools, volunteered w/ children/adults w/ disabilities...and they always have something to give and teach you.  

OK...I'll stop here....
God bless!!!

Here is a good verse for those who would justify killing a disabled baby.

"So the Lord said to him (Moses), "Who has made man's mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the Lord?"  Exodus 4:11

Psalm 119

Amen!!! :)

How any of you have the cruelty to make an innocent suffer the way I saw that girl suffer is beyond me.

You are not capable of judging my salvation. To do so is to claim you are God. Are you God?

James 4:11-12  Do not speak evil against one another, brethren. He that speaks evil against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you that you judge your neighbor?  

James 5:9  Do not grumble, brethren, against one another, that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the doors.  


I am not sure of the law in the UK, but I do not think women are able to have abortions until the moment of birth here. But I fail to see what that has to do with anything.


We have state-funded healthcare. Abortions are free.


Psychiatric illness is not demonic. I refer you to John 9:2-3.


Irrelevant. Ad hominems do not support your case, rather the opposite.


Did you read what I wrote? Evidently not.


I have not done so, as I pointed out in my post which you evidently did not read.

Broken,

Evidently you are not reading my posts very clearly either.

In the matter of judgement....if one proclaims God's Word, he is not judging.

"He who says "I know Him", and does not keep His commandments (Thou shalt not murder) is a liar, and the truth is not in him." I John 2:4

The Word of God judges you. You say it's ok to kill little boys and girls before they are born. God says its murder.

The Bible has a lot to say about shedding innocent blood. What is more innocent than an unborn child?

Broken, I have spoken to many a girl heading into an abortion clinic. And I don't know if you are being totally honest. But God does know the truth. I would just say this.....if you have had an abortion, or been a party to one, you must repent.

I must also tell you that there is no such thing as a pro-choice Christian.Just like there is no such thing as a "gay" Christian". I can say that with complete authority from the word of God. If you were a follower of Jesus Christ, you would love the unborn. You would defend them, and not justify their deaths.

Psalm 119

It surprises me that no one seems to recall that God "knit us up in our mother's womb" and that "he knew us". God is our creator and has planned us from long before our birth.

As a child of God, could I willfully destroy his creation? No.
I believe it is as wrong as breaking any of the 10 Commandments.

First I want to say that I don't agree with abortion.  BUT I also don't think the arguments are as clear cut as people would like to believe.

In which case, is it sinful to stand in the way of his plan by using contraception, not having sex on the right day, not marrying the correct person, ...?


You destroy a bit of His creation everytime you chop down a tree.

What make this different is that it's human life.  Nowhere in the bible does it say when human life begins, and its not a self-evident question.  If you choose to assume its at the moment of fertilisation, then thats fine, but you have to:
a. accept that it is an assumption.
b. accept the consequences - eg that the contraceptive pill is sometimes a form of abortion, and therefore also wrong.

And here are you, still claiming to be God.
The scripture is abundantly clear - you are neither qualified nor able to judge my salvation. Unless you are claiming to be the Messiah, God, you may not judge as you wish to.

Claim to be God all you wish - I will not follow you.


Evidently your discernment is somewhat off. This is why the Bible says that we may not judge another's salvation.


Perhaps according to your definition of what it means to be a Christian, but not according to my reading.

Romans 14:4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.


As I have said before, and as I will continue to say : you are not God, though you abrogate His sovereignty to yourself.

Nowhere in the (protestant) bible is abortion even mentioned.  IIRC, one of the deauterocanoncial books does say it's wrong, but if you don't accept them as inspired...

The sheep that provided my dinner last night was innocent too.  You have to demonstrate that the unborn child is a fully human life before you can assume that human rules apply.

I guess I would have to say yes, it is sinful to use contraceptives (no, I didn't); and marrying the wrong person (do not be unequally yolked) if one knows it is the wrong person, yes - as for having sex on the wrong day - what is the right day?

And you are correct, sometimes we do destroy God's creation.... I don't chop down trees, but I use paper. But God put animals (over all these I give you dominion) and plants on earth for the use of humans. Humans he created expressly for His pleasure.

Matt 10:13-14

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.KJV

Mark 7:20-23

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
KJV
Gal 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV Man is judged by mans actions and words.

Dunno - whatever day you were supposed to.  The question was somewhat rhetorical.

Ok, you seem to be taking up a position that is pretty self consistent.  How do/did you know that God didn't intend you to use contraception though?

I did acknowledge that humans are different.  You still have to demonstrate that, say, a two cell embryo counts as fully human.

Frankly and honestly, I didn't know it was wrong. I just happened to be wrong for me at that time, but my belief that it was wrong grew as my relationship with Christ grew and matured. Now, I've not got that worry (too old, ya know). And, before you ask, God blessed us with 2 daughters, not 10 or 12 like some souls I know.

As for needing to prove that single human cell quantifies as life, no I don't need to prove it. You see, to me the fact that God considers us His creation before he places us in our mother's womb, well that's all I needed. For me, that is proof. That may not be enough for some.

Reba,

Ah, I see your post:

You say, I am evil, unsaved, not of God. You are to leave me absolutely alone because I am evil.

Then do so, believe me, I shall not be shedding any tears over you if you take your own advice.

(PS You still haven't managed to make all the other scriptures say something different. Its still usurping the place of God ;) )

Ok. This is getting a tad bit heated here (stated lightly).  Broken, yes we shouldn't judge you. What you stated in the bible about judgement is true.  I will also state a bible verse to back my position up too.  Thou shalt not kill.  I just think that it is so easy to some people to have an abortion because after all, what is a two celled organism worth?  What is the difference, we can just reduce it down to a measly animal right? It can't talk or think.  The difference is that it is a person, I believe at that point with a soul.  God gave us control over animals, but is slaughtering animals for the heck of it a sin.  I believe so. So either way it would be a sin.  Did you see the abortion pictures on that website. How can any one be Ok with that?  Have you ever held a baby, spent time with them?  I just find it impossible to dislike, abuse, or throw them away.

Again, not judging you Broken, seriously, I just want everyone to see how precious children are.

Kristen

Abortion is murder for hire. The child is killed and the spirit of the mother is also killed.

I have lost at least 2 grandchhildren to the butchers. Their would be mother is lost someplace in the drug world.

Many young girls are victums of the lies  ... One i knew personaly had night mares for years of babies crying... her dad pressured her into an abortion so the baby could nto ruin her life? Babies dont ruin lives they change lives. Adoption a wonderful option.

                                     *******************
Broken,

Why ever is it anothers choice to kill an innocent ?  When does the childs right to life begin?

The unborn child has no right to life? Interesting why do you believe so?

                             ******************

So would you would allow the new born to lay there and die. He/she cannot feed themselves.  Think hard how indepentant are you?

Sins are between man and God? So if a person robs you or beats you, you  wont file a complaint?
                               ******************

“Sometimes I feel I shouldn't ask, but I guess I will anyway. I was wondering if anyone could pray for me?

As some of you know, I've been struggling with depression (its maybe more than that) for a year now. I thought things were going ok, that I had the right medications etc, but it all seems to be getting worse again. Things are getting strange and I'm not sure what to do.

I'm hoping your prayers will at least stop things being so desparate.

I'd be grateful,
Emma “

Just maybe the thoughts of this  thread have someting to do with your posts above.

                                         *************************

You are part of killing children from here all i can do is ignore you.

                                         ************************


One who does not stand for the right to life makes himself out to be judge  and exacutioner. Hold your ground psalm 119.  
                                            ************************
The meek and lowly mouse is showing some teeth. Yes  you will be ignored. But i will read the thread so dont get the big head. To me you are the same as the ones who killed my grandchildren        

                                             *************************
 “ Who said I was meek and lowly? All I said was that I welcome your attacks. They make me feel alive again and it beats cutting myself up.

Frankly, I don't care if your grandchildren were aborted. It has nothing to do with me and if you cannot see that there is something wrong with your sense of ethics.

You know what is ironic about all this? If I got pregnant, unless there was something very seriously wrong with the foetus, I wouldn't even have an abortion. I just support people's right to decide for themselves and not be nannied by anyone.

EDIT: I'm going to stop here, before I say things I regret. I'll review this lot tomorrow, see if I should delete any of my posts.   “        



                                        *****************************

               Supporting the killing of a unborn child, in any mannor is to be pro abortion. Man can call it by pretty words like 'choice' but the choice is to kill the innocent.    
                                       ********************
   A Mothers heart Dovewings


Matt 10:13-14

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.KJV

Mark 7:20-23

20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
KJV
Gal 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV Man is judged by mans actions and words.


 

I do believe i copied all my posts  please  where have i said you are evil unsaved?

:'( Oh, dear!

I think my position in this particular subject may have been misunderstood, and I would like to clarify myself.

Above all, I believe that God must be glorified in anything we do. Whatever decision we make, whatever plans we attempt to carry out, especially those involving a life that has been put under our care, we must do in the fear of God.

All parents, whether Christian or lost, have the holy responsibility of raising children that have been created in the image of God, who have been "fearfully and wonderfully made". I believe that these children, planned by God from before He created the world, begin their lives at a specific point in time, which is the moment of conception. A life is human because it exists, without restrictions as to whether or not it looks, thinks or functions exactly the way another, more developed human might.

Not all abortions are the fault of man's actions; I know women who have lost children through miscarriages, which is the natural abortion that cannot be blamed on any person. But if a woman consents to the death of her baby by unnatural abortion, I believe she has commited murder, along with whoever may have helped her perform this.

I do not know what I would do if my unborn child were deformed to such an extent that his life outside the womb would be governed by constant pain and misery, because I have never been faced with that situation in my own life. I dearly hope that I would be able to rest in the will of God without intervening. Whatever I decided, I would make it with much prayer and fear, along with my husband. There are times in the life of a Christian when they must fear, and I believe this would be one of those times. Not nervous, worried fear, but humility before God and a heart that can hear the voice of the Lord.

I am not here to offend anyone; if I hurt you, please forgive me, I'm a "mediator" and I try to see both sides of a problem without making fast decisions.

I do not disagree that truth must be upheld, and that it can both convict and set free. If we were to all "get along", to mend our differences and accept one another without regards to doctrines or opinions, that would be wonderful; but if in doing so we rejected truth, it would be a poor and deadly exchange. Iron sharpens iron; without friction, the blades would grow dull and useless.

Reba, in answer to your last post, I myself was under the impression that the general consensus on Broken was that she was "evil and unsaved". Perhaps I read things incorrectly, since you've protested against this idea and said it was false. You are not the only one who could have promoted the notion; I know that others have been very vehement on this thread, as this is a subject very dear to the human heart.

My personal view on Broken's posts: she does not uphold the abortion of children simply because they are "unwanted", or disfigured. Her concern, based on the experience of a loved one, is for babies so badly deformed that they will spend their lives in anguish. As I said, I cannot judge this theory, as I have never been in a situation where I had to choose between abortion and a life of terrible pain. This is an example of the debate between quality and quantity of life; it affects the elderly as well, or anyone in such a position that they would need to make this decision.

I believe that God can make something beautiful of our pain, and any trial we face on this earth is nothing compared to both the joy of Christ and the horror of an eternity outside His presence. But again, I cannot speak from my own experience.

~Joy

Willow,

Broken cares not that babies are murder she stated so. She also said she was going to remove some of her posts.

The way I see it  she is diverting the attention off her view of abortion by crying judgment. I don't fall for that game. That  is why I posted my posts. I have not called her evil nor mentioned her salvation. Now you  tell me has she told the truth?

Ebia,

Your comments about cutting down a tree is comical.

I once stood in front of a Planned Parenthood clinic,and some Pro-abortion folks were out there too. A pro-lifer was standing under a tree, and some of the pro-abortion people were bemoaning because someone was standing on the trees roots, all the while, up to twenty little boys and girls were being torn limb to limb inside the Planned Parenthood clinic. Reminds me of Romans 1, they worship the creature rather than the Creator.

Who created the tree Ebia? It was the Creator who created every living thing,including little babies.

Ebia, did you know the word brephos is the greek word for child? The word is interchangeble for an unborn child, newborn child, and an older infant.

"When Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary , the babe (brephos) leaped in her womb....Luke 1:41

"Ye shall find the babe (brephos) in swaddling clothes lying in a manger....Luke 2:12,16

"And they brought unto Him also infants (brephos)that He would touch them." Luke 18:15

Brephos means to feed and nourish.

God does not differentiate between a babe in the womb and out of the womb.

Often God would speak about "visiting" a woman in regards to conception (as with Hannah).

Broken,

You state that you are being judged. You are rejecting the Word of the Lord.

Yes, God is your judge! So why are you judging the unborn? Why would you condemm a disabled child to a horrific death?

Psalm 119

Kristen,


I would point out that that prohibition has several qualifications placed upon it in the Bible.


That depends on when you think life begins. It is amusing that while pro-lifers will vociferously state life begins at conception and vehemently oppose abortion, they do absolutely nothing to address the fact that stillborn babies may not be buried. They are just "disposed of" by a hospital - and it turns out they've been experimenting with their organs. Hypocrisy? Or just after the easy publicity?


I agree, pro-lifers use shoddy tactics and evidently have their minds stuck in the gutter.


Yes, though babies for some unaccountable reason find me peculiar. As it happens, I prefer older children, because I like helping people to read.

Reba,


Poor you  ::)
I would feel rather more sympathy for you if you did not parade your victimhood to attempt to stifle debate. A symptom of our modern culture, I suppose.
Do you suppose that your daughter's abortions give you an extra entitlement here? Either something is right or something is wrong, it stands or falls on its own merits not because of emotional appeals.


Did you not read the scriptures you posted? Perhaps you should read before you pluck them out of the Bible.

Reba (again),


And I did remove some of them. For reasons which I gave - or did you not see that?


This is why you cannot be the Judge, you see. I am not diverting attention - just that yourself and Psalm appear not to have read my post giving my views - though Willowbirch has - and thus, really, what can I say?

Psalm,


Your opinion.


Why would you hate that child enough to condemn her to an horrific life?

God is love.

Broken,

Yes God is love. But do you know there is another side to God? Hear the Word of the Lord!

"For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You. The boastful shall not stand in Your sight. You hate all workers of iniquity. You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; the Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man." Psalm 5:4-6

"The Lord tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimestone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup."  Psalms 11:6

""But to the wicked God says: What right have you to declare My statutes, or take My covenant in your mouth, SEEING YOU HATE INSTRUCTION AND CAST MY WORDS BEHIND YOU? When you saw a thief, you consented with him, and have been a partaker with adulterers. You give your mouth to evil, and your tongue frames deceit" Psalms 50:16-19

"The bloodthirsty hate the blameless (babies?), but the uprightseek his well being" Proverbs 29:10

"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord." Proverbs 17:15

"There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 14:12

"For whoever finds Me finds life, and obtains favor from the Lord, but he who sins against Me wrongs his own soul; ALL THOSE WHO HATE ME LOVE DEATH." Proverbs 8:35-36

"For the perverse person is an abomination to the Lord" Proverbs 3:32

Broken, I urge you again to repent of your sins. There is nothing hidden from God. He has known you  before your conception. He has your very breath in His hands. Fear God and give glory to Him!

Psalm 119

So, it is justice and love (they are supposed to go together after all) which YOU call upon in support of extending suffering?

I ask again: Why do you hate an innocent child enough to put them through what is now thirty years of unrelieved agony?


You're not God, even if you think you are.
My opinions on abortion are between me and God, as I have pointed out several times - not between me, you and God. I am no Catholic. And you are no priest.


I ask again the question I asked above: Why do you hate children?

"He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, both of them are an abomination to the Lord." Proverbs 17:15


You make all sorts of claims about me, further justifying, if justification were needed, why it is that humans cannot judge others. Firstly you deny that I am a Christian (to which I can only say, God rebuke you - you are not qualified to dispense salvation) and then you accuse me of lying, of having had an abortion, various things (false witness is a sin you know).

Those are not good messages: and not exactly calculated to make me have anything to do with your side of the argument. Add that to your constant misrepresenation of my position....lol. Do you love argument and bile?

Broken if your opinions on abortion are between you and God why do we know about them?
 I agree "... something is right or something is wrong, it stands or falls on its own merits..." abortion is wrong... If one has emotions abortion discussions will bring them out. I do not attempt to stifle debate if i did i would not have returned posts.  I am not the victim the babies are.

 A different grandchild was still born at about 22-23 weeks so tiny to hold .. This little guy had a name ,Jamie, he would be 9 this April 17 so  sweet so tiny perfect ittybitty hands and feet my heart broke for  my baby girl working to deliever a baby we knew was to be still born. I also have 5 healthy loving wonderful grandkids!

 



How is it that  those who show the photos of the carnage are the ones with their minds in the gutter. They did not do the killing.

yup i saw it   if you had read my post you would have found this post of yours  read the very end.... ....      

Indeed it does.

Those who hold absolutely to the idea that life begins at fertilization have several questions they need to answer, but generally avoid:
1.  Why does God allow the vast majority of humans to die in the first couple of days of life?
2.  Why do you not oppose the contraceptive pill as vehemently as you oppose abortion?  (Since the contraceptive pill partly works in the same way as the "morning after" pill, by preventing implantation - which is simply an early form of abortion.)
3.  How do you explain how one human suddenly becomes two humans occasionally?

Ebia,

It's a miracle! we actually both believe that the pill causes abortions.

You are totally correct, but unfortunately many Christians and even pro-lifers still have not gotten the message. A simple glance at a PDR (Physicians Desk Reference) would plainly give anyone the truth.

Sadly though, you and Broken still believe the lie that abortion is ok. I challenge you both again to go back and view the pictures of these little babies. What could possibly justify mutilating an innocent little baby? What would justify sticking a pair of scissors into the back of a baby's head and sucking it's brains out?

Psalms 119

Just a minute.  Where did I say abortion was ok?  I don't believe it is, but I can see that the case is not as black and white as many make out.

You've addressed your position on my point 2, which is fair enough - many have not.   Are you going to address my other two points?

Are you not judgeing what it is to say what is and is not horrific?  We all suffer. So should I have been killed as a baby to save me from the trauma of this life?

Broken do you believe that it is our right to decide what child lives or dies?  Seeing that it seems that you support mercy killing do you believe that if an adult is suffering then another person has the right to end their suffering?

I believe that even though that person's life is different from ours what is abnormal for us is normal for them.  Can't we learn from the sick?  My friend had a 2 year old sister that died in June.  She suffered greatly. Do you believe that they should have euthenized her like a dog?  Where do you draw the line?  I can't remember what verse it is but at our church our pastor talked about our body and soul going hand and hand together so that is why I believe that a human is a human with a soul even if they are one cell or millions.  God made us in His own image and I believe that being as important as we are to God we should not reduce a baby killing down to a level to parellel that of a slautering of a pig.  I don't understand your justifications Broken and I never will.  It is God's call who lives or dies.

If a one cell embryo has a soul, where does the other soul come from if it splits into identical twins?

The same place woman's soul came from when God created her out of Adam's rib?

;D

Because you asked.


It does no conceivable good to continually mention them in here. The only reason I can imagine for you to mention them is to form for yourself some moral high ground where you can judge others, thinking us too ... polite perhaps to mention anything contrary to your views. Indeed, I might have been too polite to do so, and might have let the topic go, had you not then attacked me :D


Then my congratulations on your grandchildren and my commiseration for Jamie. My sister was stillborn - which is how I know about the "disposal" practises of hospitals. They took her away, and we do not know what they did with her. One day, I hope very much that those who love to campaign, those pro-lifers who enjoy standing with a banner and bullying others, might turn their attention to the less glamorous causes, those which don't get the publicity, yet those which would be of use. Like that one. Make it so stillborn babies could have a burial, and not just be thrown into the hospital incinerator.


Because they like looking at them.


So why say that I said otherwise? I pointed out that I happened to be undergoing a particularly bad time, and I informed you of that purely and simply because I wished to explain if I had been inadvertently rude to you. You see, we got taught about manners a lot, and I know that if I am particularly ill, those manners tend to go out the window.

Yet I stand by my comments. You may indeed attack me all you wish, if it gives you some obscure pleasure to do so. And I stand by my assertion that I am not responsible for your daughter's abortions. Again: there is something wrong with your sense of ethics if you think that I am. I was not there, I do not know you, I am not a doctor or a nurse and even if I had been: I was not there. Or are you one of those who would blame all Christians for the holocaust, and all Europeans and all white Americans for slavery?

Did you ever have one good time? This girl did not. Not one moment of peace, one moment of happiness, one moment when she was free from pain. No one has ever heard her laugh. Her whole life has been a struggle to make things marginally less painful for her. Not to get rid of the pain, because they can't. Just to lessen it slightly.
You are very different, I am very different. Hers is an unusual case - and as I stated above, that is how disabled someone has to be before I think that abortion is justified.


I believe an adult has the right to choose. Once you are past the age of responsibility, it is your choice and yours alone to decide if you should die.
Of course, it is already normal, and has been for many years, that the doctors will see to it that you will die sooner than you perhaps might otherwise have done. Again it goes back to the maxim: thou shalt not kill, but thou shalt not officiously keep alive. It is just not something they advertise. But if the amount of medication it would take to stop a person's pain is enough to kill them - they will do it, rather than have that person live on in pain. Only "if" and only if that person is dying anyway.


You have more compassion for an animal than for a human? I would call that a shame.
I am sure we can learn from those we torture - but that does not mean we should torture them. We learned from the victims of the Nazis - should we therefore embrace their cruelty? No way!
How could I have learned from Claire? Why should I have forced her to live, in order that I might gain? Let me see...what I have learned from her is to make sure that I do not make someone suffer as Claire suffered.


Then why did you ask the questions? If you do not want to hear the answers, you should not ask for them.

I simply cannot see how anyone can justify such incredible cruelty. How you can justify making someone live who will never even know that they are living. Who feels only pain. Whose entire life is a literal Hell to them. Whose pain is greater than you or I can ever know, and who does not understand what is happening to her. That to me is the worst cruelty I can imagine. I could not do it; and I do not understand the minds of those who could.

NateyCakes,


Immense pain. Every minute, of every day, for thirty years and, it seems, for many years yet. Pain that cannot be taken away but only lessened. Pain not understood, the pain that makes a baby make this sort of noise...its not crying, its a cry of despair, for a pain that they have never been free from and never will be free from. Death will be a blessing for Claire. She gets nothing out of life, absolutely nothing. She can learn nothing, give nothing, does not understand what she is given either. I'll give you the measure of how disabled this child is: she is always cold, and used to wrap her arms around radiators. The heat burned all the skin from her hands and arms - and she did not understand that in order to stop the pain she must move her arms away. Even an animal has more brain than that. The poor girl has no sense, no understanding - her life is pain and nothing more. To make her live, to force her to live when she would have died at birth is intolerable cruelty we would not visit on a dog much less a human.


I have never justified the abortion of babies who have learning disabilities, who do not look right, who are physically disabled. My best friend has a learning disability, a good friend at college was in a wheelchair. I grew up among disabled people of all ranges because my mother worked with them. I would not say they should die, any of them. It is an issue of quality of life. Every one of them can bring something to the world and can receive from the world. Every one. Their lives are worth living.
Claire's life is not worth living. If you, like I, had grown up listening to the moans of someone unable to comphrehend why they hurt so much. If you had watched her chewing the skirting boards and banging her head off walls because she understood nothing but pain any more, because the pain drove her, and drove her mad. If you had seen the agony she went through, the harm it caused her and her entire family, who could not stop her pain. If you had seen that wreck of a life that cannot be salvaged, that brings nothing to anything, and whose family hope only that she will find things easier after death - because she will not find it here, if you had seen that, perhaps you would say differently.

She was never meant to live. They did not expect her to live. But here she is at 30, for she has the misfortune to have good heart and lungs, and is likely to live for years yet. In agony. She is the reason I support abortion in some circumstances, because I saw her and I would not put someone through that. At the time of Jesus, she would have died. A few years before her birth, she would have died. Only extra-strenuous efforts saved her life. Doctors often don't make such efforts for babies they know will die young, or have a terrible life, you do not know the sorts of babies who are stillborn, or who die shortly after birth. Babies never destined for life. Claire should have been among them. She was not, and the result is a life more terrible than anything I could even imagine.

Have you the hardness of heart to put another through that?

Greetings from snowy Ohio!

Adhering to the commandment, “Thou shalt not kill” I have been pro-life for as long as I can remember.  Thank you for sharing the quotes and web site.  They have certainly strengthened my, already steadfast, pro-life stance.

Your Brother in Christ,

Tony

Let me say first off that this thread should be marked with a "caution, graphic picture" warning. as i started from the 1st page, i bypassed a link to an abortion site, by my choice. i had no idea that a photo was going to be on the 1st page below. Umm... how do say this nicely? I had a miscarriage 3 weeks ago yesterday at 10 weeks. i avoided the link because i didn't want to see the very thing i feared seeing as i miscarried. Sorry, i was a little upset about that photo, i didn't know there would be photos. Phewww! ok, that being said...

I used to be pro-choice, even as a Christian. My view point was this: If a woman is raped or pregnant due to incest, i thought that she should be able to decide for herself. I was sexually abused by my own father, so being pregnant from incest or rape was just about the most horrible thing i could imagine. I knew that killing and murder were serious sins, but i just couldn't stand the thought of making a woman under those circumstances carry a baby.

I never thought that a child should be aborted because of deformities. My youngest bro (who is really my cousin on my mom's side, but was adopted by our family) was born premature, was probably already handicapped, but then was shaken by his father who was a drug addict, my uncle. we dont know how handicapped he may or may not have been before the shaking, but i cant imagine my life without him. He is so funny, a joy. He is now 22, but has the mental capacity of a 4 year old.

When i became pregnant with my daughter in 2000, i changed my mind about abortion. I don't know how any person could support abortion after feeling a baby kick, move with purpose in the womb. even at the early stages. If an embryo is not considered to be alive, how could cells divide? that would be a scientific miracle. a thing has to be alive to divide cells. we were told we only had a 30% chance of ever conceiving because of 3 female problems i have. after 11 years of marriage, we got the best blessing ever.  after feeling the miracle with in my belly, i could never condone abortion, no matter what the circumstances.

I think i may have known there was something wrong with this baby i just miscarried. one night as we lay in bed, i asked my hub if we would be ok if the baby was abnormal. He said yes, we would love the baby more than ever. I knew i was ok with it, i just wanted to know how he felt.

Even though our baby- named Jimmy Poly by my 3 yr old daughter ;D- is in heaven, and we never held him in our arms, i know God loved him before he was ever in my womb, as the scripture says. I know that he has a purpose in God's kingdom. I wish he was still with us, in my belly, but i know that one day we will see him in heaven.

I saw a cartoon once, in the newspaper: a man yelled to heaven "God, there are so may terrible things here on earth. Why haven't you sent someone to cure cancer, or AIDS, or leukemia?"

God answered back from heaven, " I have, but My people keep aborting them."

I am coming late to this topic but had to share that I think Abortion is murder. I did not read this entire thread (way to long) but I did read the first page and the last.

I get so frustrated with people that call it Freedom of Choice and say that the (I hate this word) “fetus” is not a human life until it is born. IMO that is sick.

Praise God He did not make my husband and I make a choice during our first pregnancy. I was told that I had a “sac” that was developing to slow and that I would have to make a choice to have it “removed” if it did not catch up. Thank the LORD that He in his infinite wisdom and ability took care of this Himself. At my next ultrasound the Doctors saw that the sac was empty. No need for “medical intervention”
A Doctor also told me once that one of my babies appeared to have Downs’s syndrome and another had Spinabiffida  (sp?). We refused any more testing (Dr admitted there was nothing that could be done with the results other then making the choice to abort or continue). ALL our children are living and none have Downs or spinabiffida.

I did look at the link but only after I saw the linked picture. I totally agree with the statement  “But if it is just "fetal tissue", then it should not bother you at all.” We as believers should know that it is NOT just “fetal tissue” and it should bother us to the core.

I am so sorry for your loss HopeAndFaith. I cannot imagine the pain you are going through. May the LORD give you comfort

I , too, am sorry for your loss hopeandfaith....I can't imagine that kind of loss.

My cousin now is going through a difficult pregnancy and she is doing whatever it takes to make sure these babies(twins) have the best chance of survival.

I had another cousin who's wife was raped and she too kept that child.

God plans lives for a purpose.  How do we KNOW what anyone is feeling unless we are living in their shoes?  By going according to the doctors saying that they are totally suffering, etc?  Doctor's aren't always right...they don't live in those ppl's bodies.  I'm sorry to hear that that poor girl has had to live like that, but I am sure that many ppl have benefited from knowing her and that God has blessed her Himself...besides, our greatest reward is in Heaven and eternal life w/ the Father.  

AFAIK no-one with more two brain cells to rub together has said an embryo isn't alive.   Being alive isn't sufficient to merit full rights as a human being, otherwise trees and mosquitos would both count as such.

Ebia,

Your rights to life as a human being were given by God, not man. Man needs to butt out of God's business.

I saw a cartoon once, in the newspaper: a man yelled to heaven "God, there are so may terrible things here on earth. Why haven't you sent someone to cure cancer, or AIDS, or leukemia?"

God answered back from heaven, " I have, but My people keep aborting them."

I like that!  :)

The father of lies  takes 'child' and turns it into 'choice'...the same  twisted play on God`s words he used in the garden..."ye shall not surely die"  to  "it`s really not a baby "...further  many knowingly or unknowingly adapt to the lie ye shall be as God when they take it upon themselves to decide if a unborn child will live or die.

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you live as you wish"

Mother Theresa

It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you live as you wish"

AMEN!

Where does the bible say that God intends those rights to apply, in full, to the unborn?   It doesn't - it's an assumption.  It's an assumption I happen to agree with but you're only kidding yourselves by pretending it's clear cut.

As it is written in
Psalm 139: 13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,
16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

I don’t know if I would call it assumption or interpretation. I guess some would. My understanding of these verses is He knew me before I was born. He created me, He knit me together. All my days were planned. I don’t think anyone should have the right to end that life that God created. So therefore All life from conception to natural death belong to Him the creator of life and no one has a right to take that life.

The bible tells us that God knew us before we were  even concieved - do you regard preventing conception as murder?

I take it you only eat minerals then?

AMEN SISTER! - That's the facts and much more. God knew you before the foundation of the world, and he also knew the number of hairs on your head before the foundation of the world. It's not interpretation or assumption - JUST FACTS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ebia,

You know that you don't have a Biblical stance on abortion. Everyone else knows it also. Your sidebar questions on such a serious topic are really petty. If you wish to use the Bible on the issue of abortion, abortion is wrong. You know it, and everyone else knows it. I never cease to be amazed how some folks claiming to be Christians try to make intellectual nonsense more important than the Holy Bible.

You haven't demonstrated it from the bible though.  You can claim you have as much as you like, the fact remains that you haven't & can't.

wow they found life on mars!!!!!!!!!

the news media and liberal wackos are all excited over this, spec of dried up life.

good thing they didnt find a 3 month old fetus , or a 9 month old partail birth aborted baby because that wouldn't have counted ,thats not life :'(

Show me one significant person or organisation that says a fetus isn't life.

the pro abortion people dont concider it life they cant because then it would be murder. thier argument is its not able to live alone if we take it out so it dont count, or the women has rights but the woman in the womb dont?

Wrong - a tree is alive, but cutting it down isn't murder.

thier argument is its not able to live alone if we take it out so it dont count, or the women has rights but the woman in the womb dont?


Their argument isn't that it isn't alive, but that it isn't fully human with all the rights that being human entails.  Big difference.

An unborn child is human. it is not a plant nor a puppy it is a live human. It is not dead. We are not born perfect nor do we grown into human perfection. We as humans are never complete our bodies change contiunesly. At what stage of life is it a right of one human to kill another? Scripture says simply dont kill.

so true, right on Reba  :)

Say's who?  That's your opinion; it's also my opinion, but it isn't self evident that a 4 cell embryo is fully human.

Of course there is a cut off - there always is - or do you treat (human) eggs and sperm the way you treat an adult human?

Scripturaly speaking  'seed'  seems to be very importiant.

Perhaps, but would you regard castration or having one's ovaries removed as murder?

Gone over the edge huh?

  Baby killers and those who support them in any way are murders murders of the helpless. You and those like you do not deserve the time of day. Your words support abortion you are a murder.

Reduced to "proof by personal attack" eh?  ::)

Reduced?, i dont think so, i started there. You are a murderer if you dont think it is murder, how could my words be an attack? i will not respond to you again. Murders are not folks i care to talk with.

Oklahoma Howdy to Reba,

Sister, you must remember that many in this world are morally bankrupt. Almighty God will deal with those who murder the innocent at HIS appointed time, and in HIS chosen manner.

Sister, in the meantime:


Love In Christ,
Tom

You start an argument with personal attacks?  ???

I've never said it I don't think it's murder.   I do think abortion is wrong, and I've said so several times.

What I'm pointing out is that neither the bible nor logic PROVES that abortion is murder.

When I point out fallacies in people's "proofs", instead of a reasoned debate I'm subject to personal attacks.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37785 (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37785)

The Babe is to cool Judge.

 Brains and pretty too.

 What part of "thou shalt not kill" dont we get.

You and I "get it".  We aren't alone.  

Stand fast.

You've got to be joking!  So a four cell embryo conceived inside the womb of a woman could turn out to be a plant or a puppy?  Expectant mothers beware!  


Maybe you should start by defining abortion for us.  

Allow me....
Webster:
Abortion
1 : the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus:

Termination of the fetus resulting in death.
Fetus, a developing human (unless you still hold to the idea that human cells could turn out to be a plant or a puppy).

Logically its plain to see that abortion is the willing termination of a human fetus resulting in death.   I'm sure Mr Spock would agree with my logic here.

As for scripture, try this one on for size.

Exo 21:22  If men strive and strike a pregnant woman, so that her child comes out, and there is no injury, he shall surely be punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him. And he shall pay as the judges say
Exo 21:23  And if any injury occurs, then you shall give life for life,
MKJV

Here, if the unborn child is miscarried, and "dies" due to the mother being struck, the sentence required is death.

It is clear to me that this addresses an unborn child as equal to that of a living man.  *you shall give Life for Life*  should the miscarried child die!   So how does this differ from intentionally terminating an unborn child?  The main difference I see is that some women now days are seeking to have their unborn children terminated intentionally.

Its wrong, plain and simple.  Scripture wont support, and neither does logic.

Grace and Peace!

ebia
im sorry if you felt i attacked you, but im not just your thought process. :-\
you said..................
I've never said it I don't think it's murder.  I do think abortion is wrong, and I've said so several times.

What I'm pointing out is that neither the bible nor logic PROVES that abortion is murder.
are you contradicting yourself?
you say its life right
it is not a plant
it is human at a young age
and when you end this life
you have killed it
 to kill a human life is murder :'(
to kill a plant is ashame ???
 to kill a chicken is dinner ;D

Butch  your funny! KFC

ya and the mashed potato's and gravy is good to, :D

Actually, the literal translation is “Murder” as opposed to “Kill”.  I know, I know – you’ve heard it before – but I’m repeating it just for those who haven’t.  Why?  Otherwise, God would be guilty of breaking one of His own commandments.   ;D  

The guilty deserve death.  The innocent do not.  Babies in the womb are as innocent as they come.  

I know I am more then likely to say this but.
Abortion is murdering a innocent human being created in Gods image. It has been proven that the unborn are alive, and moving in the womb of the woman.

Its not?

Reba said: An unborn child is human. it is not a plant nor a puppy it is a live human.
 
Ebia said: Say's who?  That's your opinion; it's also my opinion, but it isn't self evident that a 4 cell embryo is fully human.

I'm still waiting for an explaination to how a 4 celled embryo inside a woman could be a puppy or a plant.  The problem here is, you cannot admit its human because that would force you face the moral implications of abortion.  So you tell me...who is really building straw men here?  


Why?  Because it leaves out the part about death?  Come on Ebia.  


Again, this is rediculous.   The fetus in a mothers womb is nothing but human (unless you have evidence of the puppy plant theory to show).  By your own admission here, the fetus suffers death.   Seems to me you are the one avoiding the argument made here.

2nd Timothy: It is clear to me that this addresses an unborn child as equal to that of a living man.  
 
 
Ebia: That's one reasonable inference to draw from that passage, but it is not the only one.  Consequently the passage is evidence for your position, but not proof.

2nd Timothy :Quote:
*you shall give Life for Life*  should the miscarried child die!  
 

Ebia: That is a connection that you've made, that is not necessarly intended by God.  
 
You really are in self denial arent you?   The command says, Life for Life!  And it is regarding the life of the unborn, and the life of a man.   Life is Life.  There is no way for you to wiggle out of this verse.


I find it interesting you can admit the unborn is a child here.
Its clear that God gave us enough scripture to draw moral conclusions from what was already given Ebia.  We already know the taking of a human life is a crime.  We know that an unborn child inside the womb of its mother can be nothing but human.   And if thats not enough for you.....

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

God is the owner of this abode we live in, thus we also do not own the life of an embyro that would be conceived.   I have little doubt, that if one governed themselves by the sexual moral guides layed out for us in scripture, abortion would not even be an issue today.   I'm sure you have some twisted logic to rebut this, but this is not difficult for the rest of us.  Instead of coming up with rebutal, perhaps you should give this some more thought and prayer.   Its not hard to build a scriptural case against abortion.   However, I would challenge you to try and build one for it using only scripture.  The reason I say this is because when judgment day comes, the only evidence that will be allowed is going to come from that book.  Not logic or scientific evidence.  We are all going to give an account of our actions, and it had better be backed by Gods word.


Grace and Peace!

Quote:    eba

"Is it?  Sure, it will develop into a human under the right conditions, but an egg and sperm will develop into a human under the right conditions, but I don't see you arguing for giving them full human rights."
 of course id give them full human rights.
eba if you, or someone you know is pained by this subject as i am , and i feel as though you are . i'm going to pray that any hurt you have. do to any bad desitions , someone close to you, may have made .our god is forgiveing ,and the sin is judged not the sinner , that is if the sinner in his heart truely wants to be forgiving . may  anyone, whom has falling to this acceptabe practice , in the world we live in today . not be blinded and repent. :'( amen

Ebia says:

Okay, ebia, I try to understand where you are coming from, but sometimes you make posts that just tick me off.

Logic?? Logic aside (I can’t see anything logical about abortion and human logic has never proven anything in human history – logic is pure theory - did you not learn that in school?), you show us where the Bible proves that it isn’t murder!

The Bible says
(Psalm 139:13,15). "You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God"
(Psalm 22:10-11). "God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace" (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15).
(Psalm 127:3-5) "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is His reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate."

And what is happening now – in today’s (ebias?) backwards world?
(Matthew 15:9) "In vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

"I can't find it in the Bible and Men say it is okay to kill babies still in the womb so that immediately makes it just A-Okay with me."  WHAT!!??!!  If you believe that then you are an idiot and I'll be the first to call you one.

To me this is a useless argument and a waste of good oxygen (well – electricity).  I don’t understand how a practicing Christian (or Jew) can be “pro-choice” (Dear God – save us from those two words!) and still claim to even believe in our precious Lord.

I've got to stay away from this thread - I have high blood pressure to begin with.  

Riddance.

In that case I presume you are campaigning for an end to all operations that remove ovarian cysts (and therefore destroy eggs) and operations that remove (and therefore sperm) as hard as you are campaigning against abortions.

Without logic you can't piece together what the bible says about anything, or even read the bible in the first place.


It doesn't.  It doesn't answer answer the question conclusively either way - any more than it answers many other questions.

The bible makes clear we are His from BEFORE we were concieved, yet we are clearly not human then.  You are adding meaning to these verses that is not necessarly intended.

This talks of children, not of the unborn.  Again you are reading meaning into the poetry that you want to be there.


I've never said that - another straw man.


You should have stopped after the second word of the second sentence.  You don't understand because you don't listen.  (or you're stupid, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.)

Made a mistake here - of course becoming a human or becoming dead are not the only possible outcomes for a four cell embryo.

These reponses tell me all I need to know.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I wont waste any more time on this, as you are unable to see it anyway.

Grace and Peace!

There's a primary school kid's response that seems somehow appropriate here, but I'll refrain from using it. ;D

Oklahoma Howdy to 2nd Timothy,

Most Christians here have reached the same conclusion. You are quite correct that it is a waste of time. Biblical morals are completely foreign to some folks.

Love In Christ,
Tom

eba you said
"In that case I presume you are campaigning for an end to all operations that remove ovarian cysts (and therefore destroy eggs) and operations that remove (and therefore sperm) as hard as you are campaigning against abortions. "

you know if a person was haveing health issues of any kind that of coarse the should let a docter operate, but i dont think we are talking about that. we are saying abortion is a form of birth control , not a form of medical procedure to repair a illness in a human . :'(

sorry i will not post in this thread any longer. for i think we have beatten it to death . im affraid eba will be saying we have killed it.
and we are guilty of.....................
The First Known Thread Abortion   and i recspect all threads right to live , even anti catholic ones. only the big guy has the right to kill a thread, the monerator.wich in african pigmie tribes means god kind of scary huh.

So you don't oppose abortion where there is a genuine threat to the health of the mother then?  (That's not the position of many anti-abortion campaigners.)

1 Kings 3:25-27

25 And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other.


26 Then spake the woman whose the living child was unto the king, for her bowels yearned upon her son, and she said, O my lord, give her the living child, and in no wise slay it. But the other said, Let it be neither mine nor thine, but divide it.


27 Then the king answered and said, Give her the living child, and in no wise slay it: she is the mother thereof.
KJV

What ebia calls “poetry” I call scripture. The prophesies in Psalms must be "just poetry” to Ebia, also.  

Jeremiah 31:8 (NKJV)
Behold, I will bring them from the north country,
And gather them from the ends of the earth,
Among them the blind and the lame,
The woman with child
And the one who labors with child, together;
A great throng shall return there.

The woman was with child.  Not with embryo, not with fetus, but with child.  But Jeremiah is just another piece of poetry to Ebia. Ebia picks and chooses only the scripture he wishes to believe.  I wonder why Ebia evens bothers opening the Bible?  It is meaningless to him.

of course they're not "just poetry", but the language they use is poetical, and if you don't take that into account when reading them you're going to tie yourself in some huge knots.

And the relevance of this to the subject in hand is?

Oh, Ebia.  Come on.  Surely you recognize the “relevance”.  I know you say some things just to rub me the wrong way.

You know, I wish you lived in my area.  I’d take you out in my boat fishing one day – maybe out under The Gate to the Farallon Islands.  We could go for Great Whites.  (They’re your kind of fish.  ;D )  Then, when we had a discussion like this I could see the glint in your eye when you make some off-the-wall comment just to tick me off, and I wouldn’t take it nearly so personally.  Who knows – we may even both survive the trip.  (Maybe.)  ;)

That of that piece of scripture, which is obviously Jeremiah repeating what God told him to say, indicates that God recognizes the “fetus” as a child.  A human – made in His image.

As I read another poster say on c-unite; “I typed that real slow so’s you could understand what I’m saying.”

No it doesn't - its just a reflection of the limitations of human  language that uses the word for child in the expression for pregnant.  Infact, judging from the YLT:


even that is an artifact of translation that isn't present in the hebrew original.  I'd be interested to know if anyone here can tell us definitively whether the hebrew word for child actually appears in that passage at all.  

Abortion is just another way that society can get rid of its unwanted burdens, as is euthanasia (killing of the elderly and terminally ill), doctor-assisted suicide, and infanticide.

God who is the very breath and creator of life, takes it very personally when man does not repect the life He has created...for He says... "as ye have done it unto one of the least of these  ye have done it unto me." (Matt 25:40)

This is the very nature of of our God, and a message we must not fail to proclaim in His name, even if the  world views us as contentious, uncompromising,  and invincibly self-righteous. So be it. Jeremiah  faithfully warned the people of the coming judgment because of their sins.

I find this  verse an especially interesting one.
Lam 4:3  Even jackals nurse their young, but my people are like ostriches that abandon their own. [cev]

The message Jeremiah preached then remains true for today,  GOD’S JUDGMENT IS COMING!"

 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; Mat 13:41  

Christians Murdering Babies
by Rev. Jim Rudd

Have you ever seen a mother and daughter enter an abortion clinic together? Like all Christian preachers who have spent years preaching in front of abortion clinics, I have seen thousands of mothers and daughters entering abortion clinics together. Have you ever tried to call a maternal grandmother to repentance from murdering her grandchild as she is entering into an abortion clinic, when all along she is there to give her consent? Most Christians, who call themselves "pro-life," never see what goes on outside of abortion clinics. Most Christians do not realize that hundreds of grandparents everyday give their "consent" to murder their grandchildren in obedience to "parental consent" laws that Christians have supported and passed into law.

As Christian preachers who have seen the murder of children under laws supported by Christians, we find ourselves in the heart-rending situation of having to warn the righteous of their iniquity and call them to repentance (Ezekiel 3:18-21). Just like the pro-abortion people who will render an account in the Day of Judgment because they supported and passed laws to murder children, Christians involved in the process of supporting and passing laws to murder children will also render an account for the innocent blood they have shed.

According to recent news reports, after 30 years of Roe v. Wade, eighteen states request "parental consent" to murder children by abortion, fourteen states make an attempt to issue "parental notification", and eighteen states have some kind of "waiting period". All of these laws were supported and passed by Christians. In 30 years how many innocent babies do you think have been murdered by abortion after someone has given their consent, or after someone has been notified, or after someone waited 24 hours -- 20 million innocent babies, 25 million? God only knows.

Murder is a crying sin. The innocent blood cries out to God from the ground. Blood calls for blood, the blood of the murdered for the blood of the murderers. When innocent people are murdered, God not only hears the innocent blood crying out to Him for Justice, He also takes into account all the people responsible for the shedding of that innocent blood so Justice can be administered in the Day of Judgment. Rest assured, every person will face their accuser and every drop of innocent blood will be avenged. (Revelation 6:10; 20:12-15)

God's judgment will include, but not be limited to, every person responsible for the support and passage of laws that specifically allow for the murder of innocent people. To think otherwise is to suggest for example God will not hold Germans accountable who supported and passed Nazi laws that were used to murder innocent people. The Nazi Hunters did not find every German responsible for the Nazi holocaust, but God knows who they are. This also applies to abortion laws that are used to murder innocent children. God knows every person responsible for the support and passage of these murderous laws.

How did we ever get to the place where pro-life Christians are just as responsible and just as guilty of murdering children by abortion as the pro-abortion people? God means what He says when He says "Thou shalt not kill." For Christians to support the passage of laws that specifically allow for the killing of innocent people is in direct and open rebellion against the kingdom of God! For Christians to join in the shedding of innocent blood demonstrates a great "falling away" by Christians who have believed lies perpetrated by people who take on the appearance of religion but are in fact murderous wolves in sheep's clothing.

"Beloved, remember" we are foretold, that these things will happen in the Church. The General Epistle of Jude warns us that "certain men crept in unawares" (v.4), who "have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward" (v.11). We see these people everyday within the pro-life movement -- within the Church! Political special interest groups lying to Christians by calling these murderous laws "pro-life" so they can raise financial support -- bringing Christians into murderous bondage! Political partisans, who care more for their political party than they do for the ways of God! The lesson in the Book of Jude is that we are to be watchful against such evil and perverse men springing up in the Church, and when they do, we must contend earnestly for the faith in opposition to those who would corrupt society with such lies. Now I know that there are many pro-life Christians out there who have never thought about the consequences of supporting the passage of these murderous laws -- because you were mislead into believing that such laws were "pro-life" and you believed the lie. The good news is that God has provided for you a refuge of hope against the Day of Judgment for your personal involvement in murdering children.

In the Old Testament the LORD commanded Moses to appoint cities of refuge where the slayer may flee, "which killeth any person at unawares" or unwittingly. (Numbers 35: 9-15). Today, Jesus Christ is our City of Refuge. The mercies of salvation, through Christ, prefigured by these cities in the Old Testament, are Christ raised up on the cross; exalted at the right hand of the Father, as Lord and Saviour, to give repentance and remission of sins. Thus Jesus is The Only Refuge from destruction for His people who unwittingly "killeth any person".

All Christians involved in supporting or passing these murderous abortion laws -- yet at the time you supported them you honestly believed you were doing something good -- God knows who you are. Cry out for repentance! Turn away from being involved with these murderous laws and flee to Christ. For Jesus has compassion upon ignorant people in His Church, and He knows the hearts of men. Give thanks and praise His Holy name for He knows the hearts of men.

I'll take the silence as a "no" then.  Scratch that verse from your 'proof'

Oklahoma Howdy to Shylynne,

AMEN!! Thank you for sharing that message with us. There is definitely a message there for all of us. I'm sure that many Christians did think they were doing something to stop abortion when they voted to require parental consent. The problem was they didn't have the choice we wanted on the ballot. There wasn't a box on the ballot for STOP THE KILLING NOW!!!

I think it would be fair to say that legalized abortion was a corruption of our court system, distortion of the Constitution, and complete disregard for the Holy Bible. I don't think they are going to give us a ballot with the choice of STOP THE KILLING NOW!!! If we signed enough petitions to force a ballot with this choice, our so-called Supreme Court would rule it Unconstitutional. It would be much like the removal of our religious freedoms. We really need a Constitutional Convention to properly address Godly issues like this.

I really don't know of any other alternatives. I honestly think that many Christians have put things off because they thought Jesus was coming soon. Those same thoughts were present in the 1950s when they took prayer out of our schools.

Love In Christ,
Tom
 

Abortion and the Pulpit

Why Pastors Avoid the Abortion Issue And What to Do About That

By Ernest L. Ohlhoff, NRLC Director of Outreach


"Sure I know abortion is wrong but I can't preach about it because there are at least ten (twenty, thirty...) members in my congregation who have had an abortion. I don't want to alienate them (or make them feel guilty) by making them relive their abortion."

This is by far the most common reason offered by pastors to explain why they will not give a pro-life sermon or homily, much less allow a pro-life committee to be formed in their church. This is a very human, understandable response, rooted in a desire to avoid opening a wound.

Yet, as we shall see, this reluctance to speak out honestly about abortion results in the very consequences silence is supposed to avoid: hurt, alienation, and intense emotional pain.

Many pastors preach regularly about other moral issues - - alcoholism, drug abuse, poverty, discrimination, terrorism, etc. - - but abortion always somehow seems to fall below the radar screen. As a result, (when they think about it at all) many/most church members consider abortion to be wrong but not that wrong. How can it be all that significant when the pastor never preaches against it?

However, the unfortunate consequence is that the number of people in a given church involved in an abortion experience will continue to grow. This aftermath of silence - - even more abortions - - increases the pressure on the pastor to "low profile" the issue publicly and try to deal with it on a one-on- one basis.

So, the bitter irony is that by not speaking about abortion (for fear of hurting women), even more women are victimized. Truth is truth. When the truth is conveyed lovingly and compassionately, the door is open to experience a wonderfully healing balm.

One of the best ways to take away the fear of speaking about abortion is for the pastor to invite another pastor, one well versed in presenting the abortion issue, to give guest homilies or sermons. Such speakers are not hard to find.

I have personally seen pastors (or visiting pastors) deliver well constructed pro-life sermons to a congregation that had never previously heard such as message. On at least five occasions the congregations erupted in spontaneous applause.

Why? People are hungry for moral guidance. Deep down almost everyone who has a functioning conscience knows that abortion is wrong.

Truth is truth. When the truth of abortion's ugly nature is presented compassionately, caringly, and with moral clarity, most people will appreciate the candor and courage of the pastor.

Many women (and men) are in desperate need of spiritual healing. Other women are experiencing difficult pregnancies. Unless they have the courage to seek counseling from their pastor, they may conclude that having an abortion is no big deal because it is never mentioned in church or that the pastor is uncomfortable with the issue.

Our job is to help pastors see that no issue is more relevant to their vocation than saving unborn babies and their mothers.

[edited for length]

You know I think you`ve made quite a point there, and that reminded me of the parable... then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom...and  then...when the bridegroom tarried...they fell asleep.

The following essay sends a great wake up call to Gods people:

Never Give Up
by Joel Belz

Most folks, deep down, know there’s something terribly wrong with taking the life of a little baby.

As Ken Connor of Family Research Council says, “They want to talk about pro-choice, but it’s not choosing between chocolate and vanilla. We’re talking about the right to choose to kill an unborn child.”

It may seem repetitive, but that’s the reality. Maybe we’ve just gotten tired of saying it. We shouldn’t. For it is still the ugly truth about abortion. And we need to take advantage of the fact that most people know it. We need to strip away the denial that has enveloped us all.

So what has so much silenced so many of us pro-lifers? I think it may be in part that:

We also forget that God’s grace is big enough to cover even this terrible sin. My guess is that—and while it is only a guess, I’m not totally naive—the reality of abortion is much more prevalent in evangelical Christian circles, and perhaps even among pro-lifers, than we have generally acknowledged. Such a fact naturally tends to mute our once noisy protests.

Life is so much easier when we can paint everything in shades of black and white. If we can always be the good guys, and always portray Kate Michelman and Gloria Feldt as unique promoters of evil, what simplicity (and monotony) that brings to our lives.

But if we have sin of our own to confess, the story line gets a bit more complex. Now it’s not just that we’re calling on society to end an evil practice. Now we no longer merely extend to the Kate Michelmans and the Eleanor Smeals of the world some theoretic promise of forgiveness from God. Now we brokenly ask them to join us in begging God to pardon not just their behavior, but our own as well.

I think that puts abortion in a new perspective. It is, of course, a bloody practice. It is, from so many angles, an almost unthinkable act. America’s toleration of abortion must grieve God.

But the bottom line is that unless and until we have dealt with our own sin, and in the process publicly demonstrated how vast God’s forgiveness can be, we are in no position to expect reform in the rest of society. Judgment—and mercy —always begin with the house of God.


© World Magazine, 2003.

Oklahoma Howdy to Shylynne,

First, more thanks for sharing more truth about the ugly and evil subject of abortion. It is true that the women who have abortions suffer in more ways than one in this short life. A loving presentation of the truth might finally give them the will to get on their knees, ask God for forgiveness, let the blood of Jesus wash away this sin that torments them, and let Jesus heal them.

The parable of the ten virgins is also an excellent description of much of the Church which is the BODY of CHRIST. YES!, many have fallen asleep and neglected HIS WILL. It is a beautiful thought to think and hope that our Lord and Saviour will come for us today or tomorrow. However, we all need a wake-up call and continue to do HIS WILL until our moments on this dark and evil world are over. The lamps are also an appropriate description. Our lamps should shine in the darkness until the LORD OF ALL LIGHT replaces it.

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.  Revelation 21:23

Thank you Sister.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Just a couple things to add:

They mingled with the nations and adopted their customs. They worshipped their idols which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughter to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan and the land was desecrated by their blood. Psalm 106

It has been stated If the womb had windows, there would be no abortion. As humans, we are not omnipresent and cannot know the full scope of what each human life is worth. We cannot dwell in the womb with a fetus, nor can we see it as it matures. But God can.

Abortion is just wrong...

Does anyone here have a report, published artical, anything showing DTS  stand against abortion, over the last 30 or so years?
 

Psa 127:3 Children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

 To destroy what has been implanted in the womb is to destroy Gods creation. Anyone who does this must be prepared to justify it before our eternal God.

Rth 4:13  So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the LORD gave her conception, and she bare a son.

The Word tell us all things great and small are made by Him and for Him. Every blade of grass and every hill, every tree and every cloud, every drop of rain and every ocean, all creatures and all people, and every tiny unborn child are miracles of God's handiwork, signs of His  presence among us.

 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
Psa 8:2  Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
Psa 8:3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

 But if a unborn child cannot be allowed to die by reason of the mother, what about preventing the suffering of a child? And then a blind child is born...and Christ tells us "This happened so that the works of God might be revealed in him."

The grand design of our creator, preparing a unborn baby to show forth His handiwork, and by his life the faith of millions be strengthened.  How many of these  tiny lights were so unashamedly snuffed out by the hands of mankind.

A loving presentation of the truth might finally give them the will to get on their knees, ask God for forgiveness, let the blood of Jesus wash away this sin that torments them, and let Jesus heal them. amen

But God can.  
Yes God can.

I dont think this thread needs more graphics, but after having  viewed this film, (it is very difficult to watch) I  decided  that if it helps to save the life of even one baby by someone passing on this link, it is worth having shared.

Testimonial: After showing this film to thousands of women contemplating an abortion, we can testify to its powerful impact on them to choose life for their preborn child. We encourage you to show it to others.

WARNING: THIS WEBSITE GRAPHICALLY SHOWS AN ABORTION 11 WEEKS AFTER CONCEPTION AND THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE VIEWED BY CHILDREN.

http://silentscream.org/video1.htm

not the greatest bible guy but i do have this to say....

The Scripture says "THOU SHALL NOT KILL"   dose that not mean any thing to you abortion backers out there, for crieng out loud open up and be willing to lean differently??  in other words you are doomed if you are an abortion doc.  

i am also against the death penalty cause of the "shall not kill "part

oh well  

Abortion is wrong,it is murder.The Lord give it,and take it
away. Not humans.

One in three women will have an abortion before her 45th birthday.
The overwhelming majority will have the abortion out of convenience.

In the summer 1991 I was 26 years old.
I was unmarried and pregnant.
I went to the largest abortion clinic in America.
I had not firmly decided on abortion. I honestly felt that abortion was a woman's choice. I had driven several friends to abortion appointments. I thought I was doing a good thing.

I was divorced.
I had three children.
I had no money.
I had a habit of naming my children before they were born. Without an ultrasound I always got the gender correct.
At the clinic I told them I wasn't sure what to do about "Andrew."
Who's Andrew was the response.
I told them Andrew was what I named the baby.
I was told that I should not name the baby because it could impair clear thinking about the decision I had to make.

I decided that I would talk to the baby's father, even though he had walked out on me.
The clinic advised against talking to him because it should be my decision. Afterall, it was my body.


Less than 72 hours later I walked back into the clinic.
I was drunk from the night before and could not even fake being sober.
I was led to a dark room with a small cot so I could sober up and sleep it off.
I lay there for an hour not being able to stop crying.
Since I did not fall asleep, it was assumed that I was sober enough for the "procedure" to begin.

The nurse came to get me and saw the tear stains.
She asked what was wrong.
I told her that I was having second thoughts.
She held me and hugged me in a motherly way. I thought she really cared about me.
She told me that the amount of drinking I had done the night before had already pretty much killed the fetus- or at least had done enough damage to keep it from having a normal life.

She then led me down the hall to the room where they would perform the abortion.
Due to the remainder of the alcohol in my system and the 3 vicodens I had been given, my body was numb.
I somehow got on the table.
I started to cry again.
The doctor was there by this time.
So was her assistant.
The motherly woman had left.
The assistant asked me what was wrong and I told her that I was hurting.
She looked at my chart and gave me another vicoden. I told her that I was not in physical pain, just my heart was breaking and I didn't think I should do this. She took the vicoden back and gave me a valium.

The doctor and the assitant left and the motherly woman came back in. They wanted to give me time to calm down. I told the woman that I had changed my mind. She informed me that I now had so much drugs in my system that I wasn't thinking clearly about myself or my other 3 children.

I listened to her.
The doctor and assitant came back in.
As they were performing the abortion, they told me how thankful I should be that women like me had fought for this right for so many years.
I sure was lucky to live in a country where I had a choice.
I sure was lucky to live in a time where I had a choice.

I closed my eyes and prayed if there was a God that He'd forgive me for what I was doing.

Last January Andrew would have turned 12 years old.

Recovery was a long painful period which included much drinking and a few attempts to end my life.

God is good and I found out that He is real. I also found out that He did forgive me. I now provide one-on-one counseling to women who are post-abortive. Their stories are filled with pain. Many of them don't realize that Jesus went to the cross for all sins, even the sin of abortion. Many of these women live a life where no one would ever guess they've had pain. They cover it well with "band-aides" because abortion is a choice that we should be thankful to have. Instead it brings much pain.  

Anyone who really loves women, would not support abortion in any way. It only brings pain and destruction to the unborn and their parents.

How blessed we are to have a Saviour who forgives sins and eases burdens!

Amen and Blessings to you 'Justme'

AMEN JUSTME!

You have a very difficult and important job. I will pray that God gives you the guidance and strength to do it well.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Abortion, is wrong. No one is here by a accident. God
has a purpose for everyone,even a fetus.

I agree that abortion is wrong.
In my experience with post-abortive women and in my husband's experience in leading a jail Bible study, the thing that the lost need most from Christians is companionship.
 
We are to be Christ-like.
Christ did not mince words about what is right and wrong.
He also provided sinners with love and a way out of their sin.
 
I have 3 teens and an 11 year old.
I've taught them the dangers of fornication.
If one of them does commit fornication, I will be there to help them through the healing process, whether that process involves a broken heart, an STD or a pregnancy.

As Christians, we need to show the world who Christ is.
While He is just, He is also full of mercy and grace.
He shows us how much He cares and we need to show the world how much He cares for them too. For many of them, the only way they will know how much He cares is by our actions.

Wrong!

Am I the only one who finds the Christian inconsistency on the issue of abortion fascinating?

Anyone else think it is interesting indeed how the campaign for abortion to be banned in the 19th century was led by physicians with never a murmur from Christians?

Anyone else think it is interesting that the fundamentalist/evangelical/conservative side of Christianity, in the 1940s and 50s was busying itself defining when it was moral to have an abortion (physical, mental disability or damage to the mother being the moral means, according to them btw) rather than campaigning against it?

Anyone else think it is interesting that when they finally thought it might just be a sin, that from the 1960s to the 80s it was ranked on a level with gambling?

That the only time that abortion became this big issue for Christians and the Christian right, that the only time it became this self-evident evil sin, the worst there is, is when Christian politicians and pastors were jockeying for secular power?

"Am I the only one who finds the Christian inconsistency on the issue of abortion fascinating?"

Killing another human in cold blood has never had any inconsistencies with Christians as to its definition of sexual  irresponsibility, its being sin, a civil crime, and murder.

Were these Christians three mice in a corner where no one ever knew of them?

Broken - this is news to me.
Can you provide some sort of link for your sources?
The only Christians I've ever known who support abortion are the ones who are about to fall off the left wing tip.

Can't provide a link but can provide references:

Ungodly Women: Gender and the First Wave of American Fundamentalism Betty DeBerg
Abortion and the Politics of Motherhood Kristin Luker
The Book of Jerry Falwell: Fundamentalist Language and Politics Susan Friend Harding

In 1968 a symposium run by Christianity Today concluded:

"The Christian physician will advise induced abortion only to safeguard greater values sanctioned by Scripture. These values should include individual health, family welfare, and social responsibility."
quoted in Birth Control and the Christian Spitzer & Saylor (1969)

see also Eternity magazine, Feb 1968 issue.

and I Love America, 1978, Jerry Falwell.

If you are very keen on a link, you could try this one (http://www.cbctrust.com/abortion.html) but I have not read through it entirely

Following this part (ftp://this part) of your link I see a lot of references to the Catholic church. I have had many problems accepting much of the Catholic doctrine of today and days gone by.

When do you feel life begins?
How many women have you talked to who've been through abortions?

I did forewarn you that I had not read that link entirely. The references I gave were more specific, I had to do a very quick search on the internet and that was the first remotely applicable thing I came up with. Naturally if you were writing an essay about Christian responses to abortion you would include Catholicism.


I have made other posts in this thread on this topic, which you may wish to check out. However I would say, at birth.


Several. And I can't say I was urging them on to start flaying themselves with guilt for my pleasure.

I don't seek them out or urge them. They seek me out because they need to talk to someone who understands. I think it is rather unkind to refer to working out grief as flaying themselves.
It is not for my pleasure. Many days I wish with all my heart that the Lord did had not placed me in this ministry. However, He did and He did it for a reason.
I am His servant and I will follow His leading, even when He is leading me places I'd rather not go.  

Ask a doctor?


Then that is fine, if that is all it is. What I object to is the manipulation of people in order to fit a preconceived agenda - whether that is prolifers encouraging someone in to paroxysms of grief shouting out their mea culpas to reinforce this "message" to others or whether its extreme pro-choicers  forcing people to pretend they're having a ball even if they're not, I will always disagree with it. Its using people, and people are used to often in this particular ethical argument.

Oklahoma Howdy to Broken,

I was there in the 50s and 60s. I certainly wouldn't claim to be a voice for Christians of that time. All I could tell you is what Christians I know talked about.

That was not a time of sophisticated medical procedures. Many women died in childbirth and many children were born in terrible condition, only to suffer and die a few days later. I remember Christians discussing c-sections and wondering if that was Biblical. Well, I am a c-section baby, and I would have killed my mother in childbirth if the doctor didn't know how to do a c-section. My mother and dad prayed about it and allowed the doctor to do the c-section. There wasn't much time to decide. If they had waited much longer, one or both of us would have died, and my mother had another child to take care of. The doctor told my parents that he would probably kill me if he tried to deliver me normally. He also told them my chances for living would not be good if they waited to make their decision.

Part of this is probably the reality of Christians in the 50s and 60s. They would not have called it abortion. They would have called it trying to save a life. Many places didn't have the doctor or technology to do a c-section. And those places that did have the technology, they still sometimes faced losing both the mother and the child.

Just two cents worth.

Tom  

I was born by caesarean section too. Though sadly only after my two sisters had already died because the doctors had not figured out that that procedure was necessary.


My reasons for supporting the legalisation of abortion are on much the same grounds as the people you mention. I have never advocated abortion on the grounds that a pregnancy is an "inconvenience", but as I have said (repeatedly) there are very few occasions when I feel an abortion can be morally justified. One of those is severe (and I have given a definition of just how severe I mean by that) disability, that the birth would kill the mother (it happens, occasionally), that the baby could not survive (don't usually bother, the body does a natural abortion then), or that serious harm is done to the mother either mentally or physically by the birth of that baby. Serious, not just because it wasn't wanted, not because it has something silly wrong like a cleft palate - those are not morally justifiable reasons. Those are the only ways in which you can get an abortion legally in any case, and in this case I agree with the law.

I wish we lived in a world where people actually loved their neighbor.  Then when a woman found out she was pregnant, and she told her neighbor, the neighbor would be equally responsible for the care and concern of the un-expected pregnancy.  But in our country, people don't love their neighbor as themselves.  PERIOD.

I think the whole abortion issue would go away if every person who ever took a pro-life stand would suddenly take care of their neighbor the way they take care of themselves.  

THEN when a woman found out she was pregnant, we could justifiable say, "Your body may be your own, but your baby is my neighbor and I have to care for him or her" and in that case . . .

Not that we should take away people's freedom, but when people speek the language of love by their actions, the woman wanting an abortion would certainly understand their neighbor's care and concern about her baby.  She would understand it because she has experienced her neighbors care and concern about herself.  When a person lives out Christ's love then suddenly people begin to understand love, and they begin to accept the laws that make the love REAL.

Does anyone really have care and concern about their neighbor to this point???????????  To a point where the neighbor could understand your care and concern about her future unborn.

And if abortions happen, well, then maybe YOU, the neighbor are just as guilty of murder as the person feeling they need the abortion.

My big issue about the Pro-life Movement is that it's so busy telling other people what to do and not focusing on their own sin.

There is A HUGE SIN in ignoring the greatest commandment.  

Hello--is there anyone listening.  The greatest commandment isn't "thou shalt not kill"  the greatest commandment is love God and your neighbor.  But folks that like to look down their noses and feel self-righteous are excellent in pointing out the sin of others before they look at their own.

Save a life  Love Your neighbor.  Live out Christ's love in your neighborhood.

This calls into question true love. Jesus said there is no greater love than a person laying down his life for another. Personally, I'm tired of the "me first" generation today. The Mother's rights are considered supreme even if it means getting rid of her child. Jesus said; "You have to lose your life in order to save it." Today's mothers sure don't want to do that! They would rather let their children die than to lose their own lives! True love, or selfishness?

Abortion is wrong!  If you think abortion is right, then you are not a Christian in good standing with God!

Yeah I don't understand how anyone can say murder is ever right.

Usually because they don't agree that it is murder.

Or, as broken has indicated, because they believe there occasionally exists extream circumstances where abortion is the least bad option.

Such as the mother losing her life instead of her child? God forbid she put her child's life before her own! Mothers who do that would leave their children in a burning building rather than risk their lives to save them.

ABSOLUTLY POSITIVELY  DEFINITLY  WRONG!   >:(

what right do we have to  take away a life before it isnt born
it is wrong cruel  morally and inhuman why would they make it legal  if your pregnant and your not ready or dont want the baby there is something called ADOPTION im sure that there are plenty of  couples out there who cant have children for one reason or another  and to be able to have a child and  just discard it like it was a piece of trash or waste that picture it breaks my heart  :'( to see those tiny little bodies  just thrown away like  it means nothing in a trash bag i dont understand how a person can do that it is alive its a person  just not fully developed but still  a person and a child of god  who ever came up with the idea of abortion is a horrible horibble person but the lord says that we cannot judge our fellow man so it is up to him  on what happens to those people  those poor poor children just thiniking about it makes me weep im 15 and if i got pregnant there is no way i would give that little life  up  that fact is :ABORTION IS MURDER   MURDER OF INNOCCENT CHILDREN WHO DIDNT EVEN ASK TO BE BORN  DONT TAKE AWAY THERE CHANCE FOR LIFE  TO LEARN ABOUT GOD AND HIS SACRIFICE  FOR US TO LIVE

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :(

 All life from conception to natural death belong to Him the creator of life and no one has a right to take that life.


amen to  that  :)

I'm confused about what you meant by this last statement.

Did anyone go out to visit their neighbor today to see if their neighbor needed anything?  

All I'm saying is we've got a whole lot of loud talkers about what's right and what's wrong, but people don't go to see if their neighbor needs anything.

If you aren't there to see if your neighbor needs something, then technically, you're respsonsible for abortion.  All you loud talkers about how wrong abortion is need to go check on your neighbor to see if they need anything.

The reason no one cares about all the Christian talk about abortion is that Christians do alot of talking about everything else too.  Talk is cheap.  

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I have never met a woman who aborted because her life was in danger.
However, I could not honestly judge a woman who aborted on those grounds. I would not trade shoes with her for anything in this world.
I would think that a woman in that situation would have wanted the baby to begin with, then would have had to make that painful decision.

I am very much pro-life and that is the only gray area that I see in the whole issue.
I thank God that I have never been in that situation because I can't say for sure what I would do.
I know that I would start off trying to save both of us, but I can't say what I would do if it came down to a choice of saving the baby's life or my own.

All I can do for that woman is offer prayer and support.
If that makes me self-centered, then so be it.

There were abortions in Jesus day and Jesus never mentioned abortion.  I HATE abortion.  Don't get me wrong.  If I see a baby bird without feathers fall out of a nest, I feel heart broken. I don't think I could go on living if I have to see an aborted baby every day.  But I feel that all the loud talkers about abortion are mostly hypocrites.  They don't check on their neighbor.  You know, if a woman knew that all she needed was God and that in Him she was complete, no matter what the circumstances of the pregnancy were, she  could enjoy the pregnancy and the birth and the child rearing.  If she knew that her neighbors cared about her and she didn't have to worry about making a good impression and making people think she had value.  You know, there are women out there that have the whole world believing that they don't have value.  If they feel they don't have value, then how are they going to put value on some little being growing inside themselves?  They can't.  So, what I see happening in so many cercumstances is that folks focus on the "do not kill" law to make them feel like they themselves have value.  Even the loud talkers about abortion are talking loud about abortion to feel like they themselves have value.  It's just so hypocritical all of it.  You think it's going to give you some extra value if you talk loud about anti-this or anti-that.   :'(

It doesn't solve the problem that the people that are struggling most with trying to be valued feel that they don't have value and then they don't attribute any value to what is growing inside of them.

Doctrines about the elect and the chosen few and the "us vs them" doctrines attribute value to certain groups.  And the people inside the gropus feel like they're all somebody special to that group.  It's the same behavior with Gangs.  Everybody wants to be part of something.  The people getting the abortions are struggling with the issues of the value of a human.

They don't understand that and all of the Christians that think they're getting some kind of higher value status by talking about Christianity only make the issue worse for the person that doesn't understand God's value on all of us.

If all we do is talk about laws and don't live out His love, it really makes no sense to folks that are struggling to get value.

You know, the sadest thing is that a whole lot of women out there let men have their way with their body because they're trying to feel valued.  It doesn't matter what they say or how much self-esteem they claim to have.  It's about feeling complete. If we don't teach the Gospel in it's completeness, but just focus on the laws and not the love, it leaves people incomplete and they think there's no value in the Gospel giving them value.  If they don't think there's value in the Gospel and they don't know for sure they themselves have inherent value, then how are they to value a thing that can't even speak.

I think if we want to be pro-life we need to live out His love and we need to start with our very next door neighbor.  Everybody, anyone who claims to care about life go visit your neighbor!

Abortion is muder, abortion is sin "Don't harm a woman and her unborn child"

There is verse describing it.

Abortion is the killing of the innocent, although born ito sin, they have not commited wrongs.

I'm confused about what you meant by this last statement.


that statement was meant towards people who belive in abortion  i meant that if the baby was to live it could grow and learn about god and jesus's sacrifice for our sins on the cross i hope that that clears up your confusion about my statement


- Kay

amen to that :)

oh my dear god how can aperson be so cruel as  to rip apart  the child  limb by limb :'(  sepereating its parts and crushing its tiny  head  it is evil  i tell you evil  :'(

amen to that god is good and forgiving :)

i understand your point and i am somewhat in agreement with you  the people who oppose abortion shouldnt just yell out its evil its a sin you will be damned (though it is all those things)  they should let those  people know that there is a higher power out there that loves and cares about them and  the little LIFE growing  inside of them  is wanted by god or even a barren couple who might want the child  

That's convulted logic. Drugs are illegal and the poor and the wealthy alike can afford them. That doesn't mean we should make them legal.


Ahh, but there are those who are dealing with abortion. On another site, I have two ongoing threads. One is support to help women (and men) who've had abortions overcome the greif. The other is a prayer thread aimed at all who have been or will be effected by abortion.
As I've said in other posts, I have been given a Christ-centered ministry of helping post-abortive women deal with the issues surrounding abortion.


You're making a lot of judgements about people you know nothing about. You and I know nothing about anyone on these forums, except what we've been told.


Why do you insist on lumping the whole bunch with a few?

Actually, when I had my abortion, if one of those pro-lifers could have come over to the clinic doors and talked to me, I might have felt that someone cared. There is a slight possibility that I would have changed my mind. Unfortunately, at that time in CA they were required to stand so many feet away from the abortion clinic front doors. For the clinic I went to, that put them across a very busy four lane road.