Print Page - The Church's job?

Thought this might help too :)

Matt 25:31 ¶ But when the Son of man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His glory.
32 And all nations shall be gathered before Him. And He shall separate them from one another, as a shepherd divides the sheep from the goats.
33 And indeed He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats off the left.
34 Then the King shall say to those on His right hand , Come, blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in;
36 I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.
37 Then the righteous shall answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, and fed You ? Or thirsty, and gave You drink?
38 When did we see You a stranger, and took You in? Or naked, and clothed You ?
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and came to You?
40 And the King shall answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brothers, you have done it to Me.
41 Then He also shall say to those on the left hand , Depart from Me, you cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry, and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me no drink;
43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in; I was naked, and you did not clothe Me; I was sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.
44 Then they will also answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to You?
45 Then He shall answer them, saying, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

That is a real loaded question ::)

My personal opinion, for what it's worth - here goes ;)

Paul taught us that the body of Messiah has many parts that are all supposed to work together in unity with Jesus as the head. This would certainly rely on every person within the body functioning with perfect unity. It ain't gonna happen, sorry to say.

I guess you could say the church has created a monster. We have pretty much failed since those early days when the disciples all met together with oneness. As the church became larger and spread out, heresy and deception flooded in. No longer was it a body in unity, but one of separation - which has continued to this day.

As a person who believes that God is in control, I see that He has institued other ways for the poor, orphans, needy, downtrodden, homeless, and broken people of this world to be served and ministered to. Not that it has been accomplished by any stretch - hence worldwide pockets of severe famine and hopelessness. The church cannot possibly manage the problems that are world wide at this point.

Instead of looking at the failures of the body in this regard, I prefer to look at what God can and will do through in spite of where we went wrong. The government and other humanitarian organizations contribute, as do larger Christian organizations. So lets bring this down to personal and local church management.

Every church has the responsibility to do what God instructs them in regards to reaching out. Not all churches are interested, to be blunt. Hopefully yours does care. There are probably different types of care organizations in your area that are sponsered by churches. In my area, churches often join together for one mission or another. Some churches who are really motivated can manage their own programs. If being a part of reaching out is really on your heart, you need to hook into that.

On a personal level, I believe that God can direct you to give monetarily and/or material goods or by your involvement. Reaching out to others does not always mean the desitute. There are many who need love, compassion, a phone call, a ride - you name it. Look for volunteer agencies in your area and offer your services. Hook up with Christian Pen Pals and write to a prisoner on death row - there are literally thousands who have no one who cares - make that a church project. These women and guys need financial support as well. Or get a group of friends together and serve in a soup kitchen on a weekly basis. Give groceries to food pantries.

Involvement within the body of Messiah does not mean specifically an organized church, but others, who are one in Spirit with you, as God directs to reach out. Jesus wants us to continually reach out in love whereever He points the way. It is more about you taking part whereever you can. If your church is receptive to involvement, cool. But if it is not, then get involved in other ways. The body is inclusive of all believers.

You mentioned if the welfare system breaks down, who will be responsible. To be honest, there is no organization that could take it over. It would have to be managed on a local level. That may mean churches would have to get together, but that is usually difficult as everyone has specific ideas on how that should be accomplished. There are millions of people on the welfare roles in this country. We can complain about government interference, but the church has willingly given over its commission to outside of itself. It is kind of late at this point to think we can restore it. God can and will get the job done in other ways. Right now, I think we need to concentrate on how we can do His will right now with those around us. Focus on the need where you are at, not at what you cannot change or you will drive yourself nuts ;D

Forgive me if that seems like a clinical approach. My heart breaks for those in need. We are Jesus' hands and feet. How will they know Him unless His love and compassion are reflected in and through us, one by one.

Quote from: KittiK on January 29, 2004, 08:45:42 PM

So, if I am not mistaken...you are saying that it is the responsibility of all Christians to take care of these in need? Thank you for your input. I, sadly, had forgotten about this verse. Should I post this question here or someplace else?...

Oklahoma Howdy to KittiK,

I think this is a great place for this topic. There are many beautiful portions of the Holy Bible that deal with Christian charity and love. I'm thinking right now of several portions of Scripture I would like to post. I think it's a must for every Christian to have a kind and giving heart, not simply because the Holy Bible commands it, rather we do it for the joy of giving. Thanks for starting this thread. I think that many will have serious thoughts about Christian charity, and we all should. Yes, I think it is the job of every Christian to help those in need. We must remember that God gave us freely everything we have. If God gave us more than we need, we should help those who are in need and suffering. That beautiful portion of Scripture MalkyEL posted makes it plain that what we do for the least of HIS we are doing for HIM.

Quote from: KittiK on January 29, 2004, 08:45:42 PM

I see that it is a Christians responsibility to take care of those in need, but is it the Churches job to shoulder the responsibility to teach members about it, and ensure it gets done? Who actually becomes responsible for the unfortunate if and when the welfare program goes bust?

When you say Church, I immediately associate that word with the ONE CHURCH, the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST, a church not made with human hands. Christian love and charity is one of the primary teachings throughout the Holy Bible. I think it is every individual Christian's job to help any way they can, either individually or collectively. Nearly all brick and mortar churches have regular missions and offerings specifically for this purpose.

Thanks - Great topic, one that needs to be addressed!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Quote from: KittiK on January 29, 2004, 08:45:42 PM

Quote

Well....no. I mean the man-made ones. If I am not mistaken, Jesus has already shouldered this responsibility. We have to address it here on Earth. People are trying to get rid of the welfare programs and I want to know who's supposed to step in for the government? It has always been a Christians job to help others, but there has got to be a better program out there that will end the dependance on welfare for those who take advantage of it.
I was thinking that if it was the responsibility of the Church body to take care of the trully need in their area....what area would be uncovered? I know that they have a program to help...but (and please forgive me for this one, but I've seen it myself) some Churches are very passive about it. There is no active drive, they wait for the people to come to them, the Church head does not teach nor expect the Church body to take this responsibilty seriously. IMO the area around the church (be it Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Whatever...) needs to be completely taken care of as far out as the members can go.
Why can't we offer the services to everyone and change minds by example and lifestyle? Daycare for area residents, afterschool programs, teach children to volunteer at the elderly centers, focus on the children of the area since they are the leaders of tomorrow. So what if they do not attend the church. Maybe they will start if they see how much good you do for people and how you make people feel. Maybe they won't...you gave them the chance, you told them..that's what the Bible asks, right?
If your Church gets the area back on top and you have money and time left over, then go to a sister church in a poorer area that doesn't have the same opportunities that you did and help them. give them the extra money, volunteer with the daycare service.
Now I am ranting, my apologies.

Love and Hope,
KittiK

Over the last century, or longer, we've seen the traditional domain of the churches, welfare, gradually aborbed or taken over by worldly governements--at least, largely, in western civilized nations. This is what the term "socilism" is all about. New Zealand, I believe, along with European nations have been at the vanguard of this movement, even in the wake of such hugh, total failures as the Communist experiements with it, in Stalinist Russia, China, Viet Nam, Cambodia... Socialized medicine, old age pensions(social security, in 1935), etc.

The nice thing about such programs is, they let your avg. Christian off the hook to go ahead and pursue his own interests, like everyone else, under the excuse that his more needy brother will be taken care of, just go sign up, and therefore I don't have to do anything.

This is what generally seems to be happening on a worldwide scale, even if for the time being here in U.S. we may be backpeddling some by giving churches back more of thier domain--only temporarily, tho, I think; altho, anyway, arguably, you could say that churches in many ways already are an arm of the state now, anyway.

I use to work in a "clearinghouse" for the indigent. We had 60 churches on a list and the welfare offices too. ONly about half of those churches could do much--help on a utility bill, a bag of groceries, finding a place to stay. I was in charge of coordinating who could take the next request, ascertaining validity, etc. It was a process of calling around checking to see if we were being taken for a ride, sometimes. Most of course were probably legitimate--bad accidents leaving people without support, etc.

Still, sometimes, it was a question of becoming an enabler--the habitually unemployed. You had to screen those out as best you could, on the budget you had to work with.

It is a SHAME that the churches have sat back and put this responsibilty on the government. Yes we (we being the churches, the christians) should care for the widows and orphans. That scripture does not inculde men? Many of the homeless are homeless by their choice. Go ahead tell some cold hungry dirty old man about how much Jesus cares for em! We should feed em help them to be warm etc. For some folks this migh mean giving directly to a person, maybe the "cupboard' of your church. Might be the the cupboard of the "other " church cuz they are doing the job best.

A million years ago (1951) Dad made $1200.00 for the year. Just so you know that is not a mistake that is 100 per month. That was working a ' real job' and being the pastor. A man knocked on the door ... wife and kids in the old car... He told Dad Pastor X had sent him this way to look for work and could we spare a few $$ . Dad reached into his pocket and gave the guy a $5 and he left .... Mom shows up .... She was asking what was going on? YOU DID WHAT? after further discussion Dad thought maybe she is right... so he jumped in the car and headed down town ... In Lordsburg New Mexico the man was easy to find.... he was in the bar... the wife and kids setting in the hot car still hungry... Dad goes into the bar takes the money from in front of the guy goes and gets food for the wife and kids...

We are to be good stewards... Read what ever you want into or from this story ...

Exactly right. The Churches may never change. We must.

You said...
"Our individual responsibility is not to find a cure for every facet of a broken society. It is God's. He is the One Who directs and motivates and graces with ability. If you truly want to help and do as His Word dictates, you need to just obey Him. Period. Everyone of us has a purpose in life - His will. He will let you know how, when, and where He needs to place you to help those in need. He gives you a heart for certain segments of the hurting and needy. If we are a child of God, we are lead by His Spirit. "

I am not trying to solve the world's problems in one feld swoop. Just my neighborhood. Just my children. Just my life.
I will do what God asks. It IS God's responsibility....to delegate in many instances. I can't help but think of how many opportunities I missed to help simply because I was so caught up in hurrying home from the grocery store to feed the dog, pick up the kids from school, get my boys to football.....and didn't see the Mother who only had $10 to feed her kids and she went over $1 and had to put back something.

We get wrapped up in everday life, and we aren't open to the possibility. I just don't think we should hide behind some immovable churches to keep from taking some of the burden ourselves because it doesn't fit into our present lifestyle.( I meant no offense at that....really trully.)

Everyone should feel better about themselves when they leave your presence. That is, IMO, everyone's basic purpose. Everyone fills His plan, no matter what you believe or where you are.

As Christians, we stand together on several issues....yet we have lost many battles due to the lack of getting involved.

Oklahoma Howdy to Sister Reba,

You made an excellent point. I think it is wrong most of the time to give money directly directly to those who claim to be in need. I think the correct approach is to supply food, shelter, and clothing directly and not waste any of the Lord's provisions for the purchase of alcohol and dope.

Further, I think some of the most successful church sponsored programs put everyone to work doing something productive like cleaning, stocking food shelves, maintenance on the facility, yard work, etc., etc.

I'm thinking about a wonderful and big hearted Christian lady about 80 years old who runs two of our homeless shelters here with an iron fist. You work if you sleep in their beds or eat their food. The rules of the homes about alcohol and dope are "out you go immediately with no second chance". She does make slight changes to the work requirements for those with valid medical problems, but they still have to work doing something that may be less physical. They do their own laundry, do all of the cooking, and everything else that requires labor. I like this approach because I think it gives some dignity and work ethic to those staying in the shelters.

I'm hoping to have some specific portions of Scripture about charity and love posted in a few hours.

This is a great discussion, and certainly one worthy of seeing what the Holy Bible instructs us to do. Symphony, you made some excellent points about government programs giving some Christians the idea that they are off the hook and don't have to help. I think that the Bible teaches the opposite and never lets the Christians off the hook. We should be on the hook willingly and do whatever we can in joy. I think there are dozens of things that need to be done, and even the Christians with the least money can volunteer time, sewing, and a long list of critical tasks that don't involve money.

Everyone is making excellent points and this is obviously going to be a fascinating discussion and study.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Charity - Part One

I'm sorry for the delay. Below is one of the posts I wanted to make on the subject of Charity. You will find it interesting that Charity is the substance of Christian love. Don't confuse our modern day definitions with Biblical definitions.

Here's an idea for others who may wish to join in. Would someone maybe wish to post some Scripture and thoughts about "Brotherly Love"? Would someone else maybe wish to post some Scripture and thoughts about "Agape Love"?
______________________________________

Charity, what is it? It is Christian Love, the preferred of all gifts. It is the gift of affection and love given and nurtured by God's matchless grace. Throughout the Holy Bible, Christian Love is indeed the greatest and most precious gifts a child of God can exercise. Many portions of the Holy Bible speak of charity as being one of the principal Graces, just as God's love and grace are the most precious to His children.

Even martyrdom falls far short of charity in the eyes of God. Charity is, in fact, our yielding to God and allowing HIM to work in us and through us, reaching out to others in Christian love. It is important to note that providing food, clothing, and shelter to the poor is nothing unless it is done in Christian love. These are tasks that can not be done grudgingly or because we know that God has commanded us to do them. Giving everything we have to the poor would be nothing unless it was done in Christian love. Yes, it would help the poor, but God does not recognize or accept this work unless it is done in Christian love.

This is an interesting and very Biblical truth. A rich man might give half of everything he owns because of guilt or some other selfish reason. A poor man with almost nothing might give a portion of food in Christian love. The work of the rich man is burned up, but God loves the work of the poor man because of the attitude in which the work was done. Our works and deeds for the poor are not to be bragged about, so as to receive praise or recognition from men. In the example given above, this may be the purpose for the rich man's gifts to the poor.

The Apostle Paul makes it clear that Christian love is the most eminent gift that can be endowed through the Holy Spirit, and all of God's children can obtain this gift.

Strongs Numbers: G26
a??a´p?
agape¯
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.
Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries

Leviticus 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

Psalms 41:1 Blessed is he that considereth the poor: the LORD will deliver him in time of trouble.

Psalms 112:9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor; his righteousness endureth for ever; his horn shall be exalted with honour.

Proverbs 14:31 He that oppresseth the poor reproacheth his Maker: but he that honoureth him hath mercy on the poor.

Jeremiah 5:28 They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked: they judge not the cause, the cause of the fatherless, yet they prosper; and the right of the needy do they not judge.

Ezekiel 22:29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

1 John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

Luke 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Luke 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:

Acts 20:35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Galatians 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
1 Corinthians 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

Deuteronomy 15:11 For the poor shall never cease out of the land: therefore I command thee, saying, Thou shalt open thine hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land.

Proverbs 11:4 Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death.

Matthew 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matthew 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Matthew 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
2 Corinthians 9:9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.

See Part Two

Charity - Part Two

1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1 Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1 Corinthians 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

(See Deuteronomy 24:19-21) The harvests of the fields, olive trees, and grapes of the vineyard will not be completely gleaned and taken in. That which is left is for the stranger, the fatherless, and for the widow.

Deuteronomy 26:13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:

Isaiah 58:7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Lamentations 2:19 Arise, cry out in the night: in the beginning of the watches pour out thine heart like water before the face of the Lord: lift up thy hands toward him for the life of thy young children, that faint for hunger in the top of every street.

Lamentations 4:4 The tongue of the sucking child cleaveth to the roof of his mouth for thirst: the young children ask bread, and no man breaketh it unto them.

Lamentations 4:9 They that be slain with the sword are better than they that be slain with hunger: for these pine away, stricken through for want of the fruits of the field.

1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that
your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Jude 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

If you put these portions of Scripture in context, they make an excellent study on the subject of Charity which is also Christian Love.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Quote from: MalkyEL on January 31, 2004, 07:44:36 PM

It really is not about what the church can do any more. The church is falling apart. It is full of deception and false leaders. When the church is gone - as an institution - I am not talking about the body of believers - what is left are individuals providing for the needy [emotional, spiritual, mental] which will have to be done as led by God's Spirit, which is love. If that is not our driving force, we will fail. If we are counting on the church to provide, our faith is in a system, not in the power of God's love in each one of us.

Oklahoma Howdy to MalkyEL,

I think you are right about many of our brick and mortar churches being in big trouble and maybe falling apart. I may be somewhat naive, but I still think there are quite a few brick and mortar churches where God's love is felt when you walk in the door.

I know that I'm naive about many denominations and what may be going on or not going on in their brick and mortar buildings. However, I'm positive that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is alive and well.

I think that the individual members of the brick and mortar churches can and should join together and collectively say what will and what will not be done in that brick and mortar building. I honestly believe this is the difference between God's will being done in that building or not.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Tom wrote:

I think you are right about many of our brick and mortar churches being in big trouble and maybe falling apart. I may be somewhat naive, but I still think there are quite a few brick and mortar churches where God's love is felt when you walk in the door.

I know that I'm naive about many denominations and what may be going on or not going on in their brick and mortar buildings. However, I'm positive that the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST is alive and well.

I think that the individual members of the brick and mortar churches can and should join together and collectively say what will and what will not be done in that brick and mortar building. I honestly believe this is the difference between God's will being done in that building or not.
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I think we are all misinformed and naive. I did not say that God's love is expressed in some churches - I know that it is, and have seen it. However; the effectiveness of the church on today's world is losing ground, not gaining. I know many do not agree with me.

It's interesting that a number of denominations are praying for and believing that there will be a great revival in the end days. It would be so wonderful if that were true. But Jesus preached just the opposite. So did the apostles in the letters to the churches. The situation in the world is going to get worse not better. The church, by default has accepted the world's system of doing things. This precludes her failure in the end, not success. The world, including this country is headed for a one world religion. It is too late to stop it. satan has been laying out the groundwork for centuries. It is fact, not fallacy. Look around at what many of our christian leaders are saying and doing.

Billy Graham, probably the greatest evangelist of all time, has also fallen to the one world religion fallacy. He has said that he believes there are other ways for salvation. That buddists can go to heaven among others. Jesus said this would happen - that many would fall away and even the elect would be deceived if not for the grace of God.

Jesus said the road to destruction was wide and the gate to His Kingdom narrow and few would find it. The church as a whole unit, is defective and malignant. Yes, the body of Messiah is intact - God chooses and selects from within all denominational boundries - He does not show favoritism. And yes, many churches are mission minded - but they are the minority. The time is coming when the church system will no longer function as the body of Messiah. As the Head of His body, Jesus will have His few that are obedient.

PART 1 - Billy Graham

excerpt from http://www.seekgod.ca/deceptions.htm --- Please go to this link and read the entire article.

Billy Graham

Researching and weighing to Scripture also means that we must seek the truth, no matter what the opposition, or whether people will hear and understand the facts. The following is part of a correspondence regarding well-known evangelist Billy Graham in which some statements I made were being questioned.

"This really surprises me to hear such things of Billy Graham. I have a hard time believing that he doesn't think that Jesus is the only way. I am almost positive I have heard him quote the verse "I am the way, truth, life, no one comes to the father but through me".

Billy Graham has said those verses, probably hundreds or thousands of times. Due to reading a review of Graham's autobiography by a former pastor who became a reporter, I started to look into Billy Graham and what he really believes. One fact that I noticed quickly and which disturbed me was that one complete chapter of the autobiography is devoted to his viewpoint of Bill and Hillary Clinton being godly people and god-fearing. Recent current events show where the Clinton's truly stand in their views on morality and godly living.

Other information came to my attention in the form of an interview that Billy Graham had done. I had seen other documentation regarding the same interview and have done a lot of background research about things he has said and upheld over the years. One thing that I felt initially, before the background research, was that if he is saying things contrary to scripture because he isn't well, or because of his age, then his family should protect him. They should stop the interviews so that his ministry and credibility are not destroyed. In saying that, though, I have done enough research to know that all is not, and has not been, what it seems.

Titus 2:7-8 "In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you."
When researching the following interview that took place on television with Robert Schuller, I phoned directly to the Billy Graham Evangelical Association. The purpose was to verify the information and also obtain a copy of the interview directly from them.

The individual I spoke with was new to the department. However, upon my inquiry he went and got a copy of the requested interview and verified that Dr. Graham had indeed said what is quoted below. I then asked for a copy of the interview and at first he sounded quite willing to accommodate that request. However, he then left the telephone for a fairly lengthy time. When he came back, his tone had changed and he said his supervisor said they no longer gave out copies of the interview. He said it was because Billy Graham didn't really mean it like it sounds. However, further research has revealed that Billy Graham has said the same thing, in various ways, in many interviews over many years.

I then contacted the Robert Schuller organization and asked for verification and tried to obtain the transcript. I had already received a copy from another source, but wanted verification that it was correct. It was.

Television Interview of Billy Graham by Robert Schuller, Hour Of Power, Part 1, an approximately 7 minute long Broadcast in Southern California on Saturday, May 31, 1997. The following is an exact transcript of an excerpt close to the end of the Broadcast.

SCHULLER: Tell me, what do you think is the future of Christianity?

GRAHAM: Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ. And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

SCHULLER: What, what I hear you saying that it's possible for Jesus Christ to come into human hearts and souls and life, even if they've been born in darkness and have never had exposure to the Bible. Is that a correct interpretation of what you're saying?

GRAHAM: Yes, it is, because I believe that I've met people in various parts of the world in tribal situations, that they have never seen a Bible or heard about a Bible, and never heard of Jesus, but they've believed in their hearts that there was a God, and they've tried to live a life that was quite apart from the surrounding community in which they lived.

SCHULLER: I, I'm so thrilled to hear you say this. There's a wideness in God's mercy.

GRAHAM: There is. There definitely is.

***************

Part 2 - Billy Graham

John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him."

John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

2 John 9-10 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed."
The Television interview of Dr. Billy Graham by Dr. Schuller continued: Part II, which was broadcast on Sunday, June 8, 1997. The following is an accurate transcript of a segment.

SCHULLER: You knew ...Fulton Sheen. You knew these men. Your comments on both of these men [Fulton Sheen and Norman V. Peale].

GRAHAM: The primary way of communication is to live life, let people see that you're living what you proclaim....[comments on his friendship and conversations with Fulton Sheen] I lost a very dear friend, and since that time, the whole relationship between me and my work, and you and your work, and the Roman Catholic Church has changed. They open their arms to welcome us and we have the support of the Catholic Church almost everywhere we go. And I think that we must come to the place where we keep our eyes on Jesus Christ, not on what denomination or what church or what group we belong to."

To obtain the entire interview contact: Garden Grove Community Church, PO Box 100, Garden Grove, CA 92642 telephone 714--971-4000

In the above quote by Dr. Graham, he stated, "...He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world. They are members of the Body of Christ because they have been called by God. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts that they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think that they are SAVED, AND THAT THEY ARE GOING TO BE WITH US IN HEAVEN."

This statement directly agrees with the Roman Catholic Universal Catechism, page 224; par. 847: " Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation. "

We know that God's Word never fails to provide the insight and guidance in all issues in our life. It is inerrant. It is truth. In saying that, we must then ask if what Dr. Graham stated above is in line with the Word of God?

Acts 4:12 " Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. "

John 14:6 " Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

2 Thessalonians 2:11-15 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."
Someone also sent the following message and information to me.

"I too have seen Billy Graham's version of "universalism" - that people may have Jesus in their heart without being conscious of it... (From a transcript of an interview with David Frost, May 1997). "It took place the day before the interview with Robert Schuller - Here's one part I found to be particularly disturbing:"

FROST: "A quote: "If ever there was a woman called of God to proclaim the strip - Scriptures, my daughter Ann is one. She's one of the great Bible teachers among women today. I have a great appreciation for her and other women who have a gift of God." Does that mean that you are in favor of the ordination of women? "

REV. GRAHAM: "It's -- it would be according to the circle I was in because I'm -- I feel that I belong to all the churches. I'm equally at home in an Anglican or a Baptist church or a Brethren assembly or a Roman Catholic Church. And I would have to say that I would identify with the customs and the culture and the theology of that particular church."

2 Thessalonians 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."

It has been documented that Billy Graham is also a 33° Mason. Although a statement has been issued to the contrary by the Billy Graham Evangelical Association, there were at least two Lodges that had posted him as one of their famous freemasons. The Endtime Deception web site has lengthy documentation on Billy Graham. Jim Shaw's expose of Freemasonry, The Deadly Deception, stated that "an internationally prominent evangelist" was present at his 33° initiation and others have stated that person was Billy Graham.

Please note that a 33rd degree is a high posiiton in the Masonic Lodge. The Masonic Lodge is not a Christian organization - it is occultic to say the least. If you are in doubt as to the veracity of this, I can post more information on it.

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
28 "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"
30 In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

27 He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
36 "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"
37 The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

OK. I'm aware of that interview and have heard Dr. Graham say similar things. Which answers my question:

Quote

He has said that he believes there are other ways for salvation.

is your personal interpretation of what Dr. Graham is saying.
My personal interpretation is quite different. In the text of the interview you provide, Dr. Graham says

Quote

He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

Key words here: they come from

I also come from a life of sin into Jesus arms.

I also believe Dr. Graham is implying the following scenarios:

A man takes his family far into the wilderness. Eventually all the family members are dead except for the youngest. This last living member of the family has never been introduced to Jesus or to a Bible – this person, having been completely isolated for life, believes that a Grand Maker had to have been responsible for everything. This person knows in his heart that God (although that may not be what this person knows to call Him) exists, and this person has reached a point of love and understanding with this Supreme Being with whom he has never been “officially” introduced. This person dies. Is this person condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven?

A young child is born to Muslim parents. He grows up in the Muslim traditions. He is force-fed the Muslim way of life. It is the only life he has ever known, because those around him will not allow any other teaching to ever reach his ears, or other reading to ever be placed before his eyes, or any other words ever to be muttered by his lips. But this man knows in his heart that God is greater than what he has been allowed to learn. He believes in his heart that God is much greater and forgiving then the god of the Muslims. He longs for the real God with all his heart – just as he has his entire life – but others have completely shielded him from the true Word. This man dies. Is he condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven by the blood of Calvary?

Repeat the above and substitute Muslim with Buddhist. Is this person condemned to everlasting hell for never being permitted to hear the Truth – even though he knows in his heart the Truth is there – somewhere?

God has said he will not return until every heart has a chance to hear His word and accept or reject Him. However, what about those who died before they had a chance to hear the Word? Are they condemned to everlasting hell? What about those who are locked away from the Word? Are they condemned to everlasting hell? What about those who are deaf, dumb and blind – are they condemned to everlasting hell?

What about you, my friend? Are you condemned to everlasting hell? What about me? Am I condemned to everlasting hell?

I believe you have taken the words of Dr. Graham and bent them to suit your personal ‘crusade’.

May God bless and be with you always.
JN

Judge Not quoted:
Billy Graham [from part 1 - interview with Schuller]:
Well, Christianity and being a true believer--you know, I think there's the Body of Christ. This comes from all the Christian groups around the world, outside the Christian groups. I think everybody that loves Christ, or knows Christ, whether they're conscious of it or not, they're members of the Body of Christ.And I don't think that we're going to see a great sweeping revival that will turn the whole world to Christ at any time. I think James answered that, the Apostle James in the first council in Jerusalem, when he said God's purpose for this age is to call out a people for His name. And that's what God is doing today, He's calling people out of the world for His name, whether they come from the Muslim world, or the Buddhist world, or the Christian world or the non-believing world, they are members of the Body of Christ because they've been called by GOD. They may not even know the name of Jesus but they know in their hearts they need something that they don't have, and they turn to the only light that they have, and I think they are saved, and that they're going to be with us in heaven.

John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 The one believing into Him is not condemned; but the one not believing has already been condemned, for he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love having been perfected is in us.
13 By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because of His Spirit He has given to us.
14 ¶ And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

1 John 5:10 ¶ The one believing in the Son of God has the witness in himself. The one not believing God has made Him a liar.

Judge Not wrote:
. . . This person knows in his heart that God (although that may not be what this person knows to call Him) exists, and this person has reached a point of love and understanding with this Supreme Being with whom he has never been “officially” introduced. This person dies. Is this person condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven?

. . . He longs for the real God with all his heart – just as he has his entire life – but others have completely shielded him from the true Word. This man dies. Is he condemned to everlasting hell, or is he forgiven by the blood of Calvary?

MalkyEL: Unless a person believes in and receives Jesus as Savior and God, they are condemned to hell.

Judge Not wrote: God has said he will not return until every heart has a chance to hear His word and accept or reject Him.

MalkyEL: Would you please find me some Scriptural references for this? Thanx.

Judge Not wrote: However, what about those who died before they had a chance to hear the Word? Are they condemned to everlasting hell? What about those who are locked away from the Word? Are they condemned to everlasting hell? What about those who are deaf, dumb and blind – are they condemned to everlasting hell?

Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!
15 For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of the one willing, nor of the one running, but of God, the One showing mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He will have mercy , and whom He will, He hardens.
19 You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will?
20 No, but, O man, who are you who replies against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him who formed it , Why have you made me this way?
21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction;
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory;
24 whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

Judge Not wrote: What about you, my friend? Are you condemned to everlasting hell? What about me? Am I condemned to everlasting hell?

MalkyEL: I am not condemned to hell. God's Spirit lives within me. I once thought I was saved. At 16 I got "saved" but did not give my life over to God as Master and King. For 30 years I served the church believing that my "righteous" behavior secured my place in heaven. I was very wrong. It was not until I met Him face to face that I realized I was headed for hell. Giving my life over to the redeeming work of Jesus, has made all the difference in my life. My heart confirms I belong to Him because He is my Everything. I am His son.

Rom 8:10 ¶ But if Christ is in you, the body indeed is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of the One having raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the One having raised the Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies live through the indwelling of His Spirit in you.
12 So, then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to flesh,
13 for if you live according to flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery again to fear, but you received a Spirit of adoption by which we cry, Abba! Father!
16 The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are children of God.

Judge Not wrote: I don't argue with your scriptural references, brother, but with your interpretation of those same references. I could use the same references to make my point.

MalkyEL: sorry - I am a sister in Messiah :), but consider myself a son of God, sorry for the confusion.

Judge Not wrote: I cannot find it in my heart to condemn those who have not heard, or who have been prohibited from hearing, God’s final Word. Maybe Jesus sees it differently, but not from what I have been taught and not from what I feel in my heart.

Rom1:16 ¶ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation to everyone believing, both to Jew first, and to Greek;
17 for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; even as it has been written, "But the just shall live by faith." Hab. 2:4

Rom 10:9 Because if you confess the Lord Jesus with your mouth, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
13 For everyone, "whoever may call on the name of the Lord will be saved." Joel 2:32
14 How then may they call on One into whom they have not believed? And how may they believe One of whom they have not heard? And how may they hear without preaching?
15 And how may they preach if they are not sent? Even as it has been written, "How beautiful" "the feet of those preaching the gospel of peace, of those preaching the gospel of good things." Isa. 52:7
16 But not all obeyed the gospel, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Isa. 53:1
17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.

John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one abiding in Me, and I in him, this one bears much fruit, because apart from Me you are not able to execute, nothing.
6 Unless one remains in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned.7 If you remain in Me, and My Words remain in you, whatever you desire you will ask, and it shall happen to you.
8 In this My Father is glorified, that you should bear much fruit; and you will be disciples to Me.

Heb 7:25 And from this He is able to save to the end completely the ones drawing near to God through Him, forever living to intercede on their behalf.

Judge Not wrote: Jesus died for ALL sin. ALL sin.

Try to imagine the burden on Him on the cross – ALL sin being delivered to Him in His last dying moment. I can’t imagine that weight. He had already been tortured beyond imagination with everything man had to dish out. Adding to that ALL the sin of man, past, present and future, is so far beyond my comprehension that I weep when I consider it.

Heb9:28 so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. Isa. 53:12

Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through the faith of Jesus Christ, toward all and upon all those who believe. For there is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness through the passing by of the sins that had taken place before, in the forbearance of God;
26 for the display of His righteousness at this time, for Him to be just and, forgiving the one being of the faith of Jesus.

Rom 5:14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come;
15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.
17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.

Judge Not wrote: To think He did that for a select few who believe a certain way according to a particular denomination's belief is totally alien to me, and will remain so.

MalkyEL: According to the Word of God, Jesus died for the sins of those would receive salvation. Salvation is available to all, but not all accept it. Therefore, sin is not forgiven unless it is repented of. Once one belongs to Jesus and He lives fully in that person, sin becomes anathema to that person - putting the sinful desires to death. That means the intent of the heart is pure before God and sin from that point on does not condemn that person because he has been washed in the blood of Jesus. For those who are not saved, there is no forgiveness of sin. That is not a denominational teaching, that is the Word of God on the matter.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

I was just thinking about missionaries serving all over the world trying to share the Word of God. Many members of my family are missionaries, and I've listened to many stories about poverty stricken, primitive, and very simple people.

Many of them know almost nothing of the world, they can't read, and their language skills consist of maybe the vocabulary of a 4 or 5 year-old in our country. The problem is much bigger than just getting a Bible into their hands. They first have to be taught to survive long enough to receive the message. I want to study some before I say anything about what's on my mind and heart. Our infants and small children might be compared to them in terms of knowledge. The question I have on my heart is this: "Is there an accountability factor of any type or form?" This might seem like a silly question, but it is one that I've pondered before and never had the chance to search HIS WORD for. If someone has studied this specific topic, I would appreciate you sharing with us.

I'm also thinking of wonderful and loving Christian parents looking at their infant in the crib. We all know there isn't any way they can teach the Gospel of God's Grace to that 3 month old child, regardless of how much or how hard they might want to try. Maybe this is an easier topic than the primitive and ignorant people in the jungle. Is there an accountability factor of some sort? What are your thoughts?

I know it is much better to have never heard the Gospel than to hear it and reject it. (Just more food for thought).

Love In Christ,
Tom

BlackEyedPeas [Tom] asks:
"Is there an accountability factor of any type or form?"

Interesting question, Tom!

I am assuming you are asking within the framework of acceptance of the gospel message. Yes, there is an accountability factor - it is dependent on the ability of the mind and heart to accept the concept of need for a Savior. I have heard of children as young as 4 and 5 giving their hearts to Jesus and remembering that decision all through their lives.

The Bible does have some things to say about raising a child to know their Creator. When it comes to those who have not heard the gospel - such as you refer to on the mission fields, I would consider that to be as a young child in the faith and therefore, would need training and teaching to understand the salvation process.

Personally, I believe that as a parent, there is a covenant in effect. As believers, your children would be considered "saved" until they reach an age of decision - that would differ of course on the "spiritual awareness" of each child.

Here are some scripts:

Deut 6:4 ¶ Hear, O, Israel. The LORD our God is one LORD.
5 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
6 And these words which I command you this day shall be in your heart.
7 And you shall carefully teach them to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.

Prov 22:6 ¶ Train up a child in the way he should go; and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Been looking for a verse that says you are responsible only for what you know, but - can't find it - anyone know where it is - I thought it was in the gospels?

I believe the verse you are refering to is...

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

JudgeNot, I was thinking about your earlier post and had a few thoughts.

Quote

I cannot find it in my heart to condemn those who have not heard, or who have been prohibited from hearing, God’s final Word. Maybe Jesus sees it differently, but not from what I have been taught and not from what I feel in my heart.

A passage that came to mind was....

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because the thing which may be known of God is clearly revealed within them, for God revealed it to them.
Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Verse 18 states unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth. But 19 and 20 imply that none will be without excuse when judgment comes because creation itself declares his glory.

My own personal thoughts about this are, everyone at some point in their lives comes to the question of whether or not there is a God. Perhaps just by gazing up at the night sky. Or prehaps just the void vacuum in ones heart. If a person in some far away place, having never heard the gospel of Christ begins a quest for truth in his heart, God will move heaven and earth to bring that individual his gospel of truth by some means.

I heard a story about a tribe (dont recall if it was in S America or Africa), but a missionary went to their villiage and taught the Gospel. The chief told him afterwards, that they knew this God was real, and wanted to worship him, they just didn't know his name was Jesus. God knows the hearts of men, and if any man seeks truth, God will bring it to them.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he with Me.

Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy wrote:
I believe the verse you are refering to is...

2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
******************
Thanx 8)! This was one of them, but my mind says there is yet another one referring to ignorance - not Rom 1, either - h m m m - have to keep searching ???.

Been thinking about the story of the African tribe that you and Judge Not were talking about. I totally agree that God will move heaven and earth to reach those who are seeking for Him. It has certainly been true personally, and Jeremiah 31 says that those who diligently seek Him will find Him.

Jesus also prayed: John 17:1 ¶ Jesus spoke these words and lifted up His eyes to Heaven and said, Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son so that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 even as You have given Him authority over all flesh so that He should give eternal life to all You have given Him.9 I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I am glorified in them.
20 ¶ And I do not pray for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word,
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me.

Jesus taught:
John 6:33 For the bread of God is He who comes down from Heaven and gives life to the world.
34 Then they said to him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said to them, I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes on Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you also have seen Me and do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will in no way cast out.
38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 And this is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all which He has given Me I should lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day.40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him should have everlasting life. And I will raise him up at the last day.
53 Then Jesus says to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink His blood, you do not have life in yourselves.
54 Whoever partakes of My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
65 And He said, Because of this I said to you that no one can come to Me unless it was given to him from My Father.

Oklahoma Howdy to All,

Good thoughts and great discussion. Thanks for the beautiful portions of Scripture.

I'm almost sure that I've seen the same video about the tribe who were thankful to finally know the name of The God they wanted to worship. This is an excellent addition to the accountability question.

As a small child, I remember overhearing discussions between my dad and my uncle, both preachers, when one of the kids did something wrong. They discussed an age or maturity of accountability. I didn't understand what they were talking about then, but I remember portions of those conversations now that the question has come up and I feel a burden on my heart to find out.

I've heard all kinds of opinions on infants and what will happen if they die. Some Christians qualify their answers with whether or not the parents were Christians. Some say the infant goes to hell, regardless of faith from their parents. Some say that aborted babies go to hell. Some say the infant belongs to Jesus, and that would be my opinion, specifically after the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross. However, I can't find the Biblical teaching to support or deny my opinion.

A developing thought involves the Law and Grace. I'm still searching. I hope that I say this in a way that makes sense. Can an infant be condemned under the law? The law leads to a knowledge of sin. (Bear with me here) If there is no law or understanding of the law for this infant, could there be a spiritual death sentence involved if they physically die? We know that we can't make this infant understand the Gospel of the Grace of God, but is this infant the recipient of God's love and grace? I know that I didn't say this very well. Let me study some more with the additional thoughts and Scriptures you have provided and try again.

Love In Christ,
Tom

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As a small child, I remember overhearing discussions between my dad and my uncle, both preachers, when one of the kids did something wrong. They discussed an age or maturity of accountability. I didn't understand what they were talking about then, but I remember portions of those conversations now that the question has come up and I feel a burden on my heart to find out.

That is an interesting question Tom, and one worthy of study. May have to join you there! I've always considered the accountability concept to be a necessity. That is, if one does not know one is a sinner, and does not know that Jesus paid the price for there sin, is not the issue here. That is covered in Romans 1. The issue is whether or not the one who does not know, can know, or are capable of understanding. That's key I believe, but will be the first to say that it is also reason and logic at the heart of it all. Let me know what ya find on this would you?

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Eph 1:3-5

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Luke 18:16-17

16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

The only possible contradiction I may have with these passages Sister, is that the references are referring to believers who have conscieously accepted Christ's call to salvation, not to children. We are then the children spoken of, and Jesus equates the children coming to Him to be the mindset we, as believers, will also reflect. I will, however, say that I can see how that may fit, namely from the perspective of being chosen before the foundations of the world. Needless to say, and though it may not seem so, I was blessed by your post! Thanks! :)

Quote from: Allinall on February 06, 2004, 10:37:41 AM

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One of the prophesies about Yeshua stated that he would eat butter and honey until he learned to choose the good and not the evil. And when he was 12 years old, his mother and Joseph were astonished that he had learned so much.

He was without sin, and yet he had to learn not to choose the evil. Therefore, I believe that the child is not born - in - sin, but - into - sin. In other words, children are taught to sin, by the people in their lives who sin

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Theology => Bible Study => Topic started by: KittiK on January 29, 2004, 10:49:16 AM