Print Page - By grace you have been saved.

Okay, let me get this straight. First, you say you are saved by grace, then you say “No, I am saved by grace AND baptism of the holy spirit.” (You must have forgotten to put 1 Peter 3:21 on your orginal list). The Scriptures say there is one baptism and you say there are two: the Baptism in the Holy Spirit which is the saving power; and Baptism for a “public declaration” of faith in Jesus (of which you never gave me chapter or verse to prove eithers existence – 2 Cor 13:1)

Now you say “To me, being saved by grace and being baptized in the Holy Spirit happen concurrently. When one accepts Jesus as savior, the Holy Spirit enters the heart – and WHAM! one is saved by grace.”

You said you received the Holy Spirit concurrently with your spiritual baptism and Christ received the Holy Spirit subsequent to His baptism.

(Concurrent: happening at the same time; subsequent: following after. Merriam Webster Dictionary)

Matthew 3:16 - And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him.

In fact, if you look at Acts 2:38-40, the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, not concurrently. This cannot be your “public baptism”, since the men were asking “what shall we do?”:

Acts 2:38-40 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

You never mentioned anything about repentance, either. (That is not surprising since you forgot to mention the baptism of the holy spirit, also) Yet the apostles said the men had to repent and be baptised to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Since “and” is important to your “saved by grace and spiritual baptism” the word “and” must be just as important here, also. Why? Because the word “and “ is used to connect other words together, such as repentance and baptism. Repentance + Baptism = Saved.

(And: used to indicate connection or addition esp, of items within the same class or type or join words or phrases of the same grammatical rank or function.- Merriam Webster)

If we look elsewhere where the word “and” is connecting words in the same thought to the word “saved” we go to:

Matt 16:15-16 - and he said to them, `Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation; he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.

Here the word “and” connects the words “Believes” and “Baptised”. Believes + Baptised = Saved.

Mark 16:15-16     Believes + Baptised = Saved.
Acts 2:38-40      Repents + Baptised = Saved
1 Peter 3:21      Baptism = Saves

Reduced to common denominators, we have how we are to be saved by Grace:

Believes + Repents + Baptised = Saved.

See JN, that is the advantage of using Scripture to prove Scripture.

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 10, 2004, 12:31:58 PM

Could you explain this verse to me. I know there are no contradictions in the Scriptures, since they are inspired by God, so why do the Scriptures say "baptism now saves you"?

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

unworthy servant,

Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone.

Maybe not...

However, I am left wondering want your point is??

Is water baptism the issue??

you said:

Quote

In fact, if you look at Acts 2:38-40, the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and baptism for the remission of sins, not concurrently. This cannot be your “public baptism”, since the men were asking “what shall we do?”:

If ........................ the Holy Spirit was received subsequent to repentance and (water) baptism (which was for the remission of sins), then the receiving of the Holy Spirit is that baptism spoken of by John the Baptist at Jh 1:33;

"The man on whom you see the Spirit comedown and remain is HE (emphasis mine) who will baptize with the Holy Spirit." reffering to Jesus.

So, what we wind up with for the Jews is two (2)baptisms, and, .......... only one saves; the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, this is why 1 Peter 3:21, states it is;

"not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, "

Quote

Acts 2:38-40 - Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That is why Cornelius a gentile together with his household, were baptized with water susbsequent to the Holy Spirit Baptism.

The water baptism, was not for salvation, since it is clear they already showed fruit of having been saved, it was for a testominy.

So let's clear the matter up, this way;

Water Baptism does not save! On the other hand;

1 Peter 3:21 (Holy Spirit) Baptism = Saves

Do you agree??

Blessings,
Petro

aw,

You are right, there is no water mentioned in1 Cor 15:1-3.

Neither is there at Col 2;

12 Buried with Him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Key words emboldened above..

Jesus asked his disciples at;

Mk 10
38 ................Ye know not what ye ask; can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 ...........Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drinkof; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized.

And all this He said, after being baptized in water by John the Baptist.

So clearly water baptism was not in view when he spoke these words at Mk 10, to His disciples.

Christians ought to be water baptised, but to teach one MUST be water baptised to be saved, is strechting it a might.

It is clear to me, Jews needed to be water baptized for a testimony, while gentiles who believe and desire to be do so because of the inward testimony they desire to show forth to the world.

Take the ethiopian eunuch, why did he ask to be baptized, after Philip preached Jesus to Him (Acts 9:35-36) his own words testify to his faith in Jesus;

"And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God", because he believed it with his whole heart according to verse 37.

Is not this the testimony of a man who is saved, and Philip baptized him with water, but the Lord baptized him with the Holy Spirit; this man went away rejoicing because he received the indwelling gift of the Holy Spirit.

Final point;

Mark 16:16, makes a simple declaration of what will happen to the man that believes and is baptized with the Holy Spirit, men read more into this verse than they ought to.

It is at Mathew 28:19, that the Lord commands the eleven disciples to;

"...teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and ofthe Holy Ghost"

I am not sure that both of these accounts are the same one, since the setting seems to be different, Mat 28, was in "Gallilee into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them."

While Mk 16, was while they; "sat at meat with them."

Blessings,

Petro

Quote from: Petro on February 10, 2004, 08:25:09 PM

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 10, 2004, 12:31:58 PM

Quote

Some Light for unworthy servent, thanks Petro ;)

The Crusader said "unworthy servant, Having read your posts, on this thread, it sounds as though you knew the answer to the question you put forth, and simply wanted to aceentuate it, in a way, that would scold someone. Maybe not..."

When Priscilla and Aquila heard Apollos, they knew the proper answer before they talked to him. And they "explained to him the way of God more accurately."

Acts 18:24-26 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.

I saw the topic which said "By grace you have been saved." Jn said he was saved by grace and spiritual baptism. Shouldn't the topic have said "By grace and spiritual baptism you have been saved."?

Now I have a question for you, the same one asked to Christ: "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?"

Luke 13:23-30 And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, `Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, `I do not know where you are from.' "Then you will begin to say, `We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets'; and He will say, `I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.' "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out. "And they will come from east and west and from north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. "And behold, some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last."

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved? No. (This one is a Rhetorical question)

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 11, 2004, 07:27:17 AM

I Quoted Petro

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 11, 2004, 07:27:17 AM

Matthew 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

unworthy servant,

The Lord makes it clear only those who do "the will of my father will enter (the kingdom of heven)."

And clearly it does not depend on any other work.

If a man believes to the saving of the soul, it is because God has done His work in that man, isn't this what Jesus taught those who asked Him;

Jhn 6
28 ..............What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This is the only explanation, that explains how men who never had an interest in God or the things of God, believe in God.

If you have another, lets hear it..

Quote

So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved? No. (This one is a Rhetorical question)

This not rhetorical at all it is a dumb, question.

I have heard some go as far as asking; "the devils even believe, are they saved?"; such questions only engender strife, and usually are put forth by those who, desire to advance unbiblical teachings, as though they have received some mysterious revelation, not made known to others.

The fact is they ask such questions, in light of the not knowing the word of God. As Jesus said, "ye do error not knowing the scriptures" Mat 22:29

Jesus answers this for himself; He says NOT ALL who say LORD, LORD. Mat 7:21

Mat 11
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Only those whom the Son reveals the Father to, can begin to even contemplate doing the Father's will.

These will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world: (Mat 25:34)

The one baptism that matters is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Water Baptism is important as an outward testimony to others, of an inward cleansing.

Blessings,
Petro

Petro said "This not rhetorical at all it is a dumb, question."

rhetorical -1 a : of, relating to, or concerned with rhetoric b : employed for rhetorical effect; especially : asked merely for effect with no answer expected <a rhetorical question>

Actually, I placed an answer "No" there just because whenever I did ask it, no one answered. It is actually is rhetorical without the "No" since Christ does answer the question in the verse that all the "believers" who called upon the name of the Lord will not be saved. These people believed the lie instead of the truth. In their mind the lie was the truth .

2 Thess 2:10-11 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Since you thought the fits question was dumb then I have no dout you will feel the same about the next.

If everyone who calls on the Lord will be saved, then why wasn't Phaorah saved?

Exodus 9: 27 Then Pharaoh sent for Moses and Aaron, and said to them, " I have sinned this time; the LORD is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones.

Ex 7:3 - "But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.

Romans 9:17-22 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Who do the will of God? - the vessels of mercy who:

Believe + Repent + Baptism (by immersion) = Saved.

Ro 8:30 - and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(NAS)

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (KJV)

[LITV] 1 Peter 3:21 ¶ Which antitype now also saves us, baptism (not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who going into Heaven is at the right of God, the angels, and authorities, and powers being subjected to Him).

[MKJV] 1 Peter 3:21 ¶ which figure now also saves us, baptism; not a putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ;
22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into Heaven, where the angels and authorities and powers are being subjected to Him.

[Unknown Version quoted by Unworthy] 1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Within the contest of this verse, is the fact that Jesus saves and in Him is the baptism of salvation. The order of words in the original Greek - here in English [based on the Bynzantine or Textus Receptus manuscripts - about 5,ooo] is: which also us antitype now saves baptism, not of flesh putting away if (the) filth, but conscience of a good an answer toward God, through (the) resurrection of Jesus. In other words, salvation is not getting cleansed in water, but belief in Him as the resurrected Jesus [Greek - Iesous - God is salvation]

Jesus said that salvation comes from regeneration of Spirit and Water [John 3]. He is the Living Water. He is Spirit. His baptism of Spirit was "upon" Him - which pointed to His anointing to heal and deliver [Luke 4 - He was anointed = Christ or Messiah]. He is Spirit, being God in the flesh.

BEP,

Well, this is good news; and good riddance.

As a closing point on this subject.

I might also add, to what has been said, that the water mentioned for this baptism (which ultimately saves) is prophecied at Ezek 36:24-26

Note the word clean, as in water..

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The word clean in this verse of scripture used two times is the Hebrew word tahowr or tahor #2889, and is used to denote ceremonially clean or pure, it used and can be seen more clearly defined as pure and when used to define pure from transgression and sin, it has nothing to do with water,

Note;

Pro 30
12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

In the above verse, the word pure is the same word #2889 used in Ezek 36:25, and it is emphasizing being made pure which would be "washed from their filthiness" speaking of their sins.

The second word clean in Ezek36:25, is the Hebrew word taher #2891 to purge or purify and it (the same word tanslated clean in Ezek 36:25) is used as the word pure at;

Prov 20
8 A king that sitteth in the throne of judgment scattereth away all evil with his eyes.
9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

But Job 4:17, gives a better look at the word;

Job 4
17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

So then, the word clean at Ezek 36:25, which God says He will spirnkle on his people and cleanse them of all their filthiness, and idols, refers, not to physical water, since in this world there is no pure water, which can regenerate and wash away all sin, and purify the soul.

So in the end, It is two things, which cleanses away sin and purifies those that come to God for cleansing;

1. The answer to God of a good conscious, purifies the soul. (1 Pet 1:22)

2, And, the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost9 Tiuts 3:5); is what saves us, and will give life to our mortal bodies (Rom 8:11)

This is the real Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

As MalkyEL, has stated;

Quote

Within the contest of this verse, is the fact that Jesus saves and in Him is the baptism of salvation. The order of words in the original Greek - here in English [based on the Bynzantine or Textus Receptus manuscripts - about 5,ooo] is: which also us antitype now saves baptism, not of flesh putting away if (the) filth, but conscience of a good an answer toward God, through (the) resurrection of Jesus. In other words, salvation is not getting cleansed in water, but belief in Him as the resurrected Jesus [Greek - Iesous - God is salvation

Way to go Malky....

Blessings,

Petro

Nice post, Pedro! It really impelled me to dig into the aspect of the blood of Jesus and a couple of other verses that we have always "attached" to water baptism, but in context to these other verses, may have a deeper meaning.

Definitely not to dismiss the importance of water baptism, which is a command and imperative for one's spiritual life.

There is quite a bit of scripture here, but necessary for the full impact of our redemption in the blood of Jesus. The Eph 4:5 text "one baptism" in connjunction with 1 Peter 3:21 refers to this whole picture of Jesus being our baptism, when you compile the texts together for an overall picture, imho.

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works in righteousness which we had done, but according to His mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ, our Savior;
7 that being justified by His grace, we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Rom 6:3 Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and having been filled, you are in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority,
11 in whom also you were circumcised with a circumcision not made by hands, in the putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 being buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from among the dead.

Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, the One above all and through all and in you all.

Col 1:12 ¶ giving thanks to the Father, who has made us fit for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light,
13 who delivered us out of the authority of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the remission of sins;
15 who is the image of the invisible God, the First-born of all creation.

Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ,
4 even as He elected us in Him before the foundation of the world, for us to be holy and without blemish before Him in love,
5 predestinating us to adoption through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace in which He favored us in the One having been loved,
7 , in whom we have redemption through His bloodthe remission of deviations, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding,

Heb 9:11 ¶ But Christ having appeared as a High Priest of the coming good things, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation,
12 nor through the blood of goats and of calves, but through His own blood, He entered once for all into the Holy of Holies, having procured everlasting redemption.
13 For if the blood of bulls and goats, and ashes of a heifer sprinkling those having been defiled, sanctifies to the purity of the flesh,
14 by how much more the blood of Christ (who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God), will purify your conscience from dead works, to serve the living God!15 ¶ And because of this He is Mediator of a new covenant, so that, death having occurred for redemption of transgressions under the first covenant, those being called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.
16 For where a covenant is, the death of him having covenanted must be offered.
17 For a covenant is affirmed over those dead, since it never has force when he who has covenanted is living.
18 From which neither the first covenant was dedicated without blood.
19 For when every command had been spoken according to Law by Moses to all the people, having taken the blood of the calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll and all the people,
20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant which God enjoined to you." Ex. 24:8
21 And he likewise sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the service vessels with the blood.
22 And almost all things are purified by blood according to the Law; and apart from shedding of blood no remission occurs.
23 ¶ Then it was needful for the figures of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these; but the heavenly things themselves by better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter into the Holy of Holies made by hands, types of the true things, but into Heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf,
25 not that He should often offer Himself even as the high priest enters into the Holy of Holies year by year with blood of others;
26 since He must often have suffered from the foundation of the world. But now once for all, at the completion of the ages, He has been manifested for putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And as it is reserved to men once to die, and after this, Judgment;
28 so Christ having been once offered "to bear the sins of many," Christ shall appear a second time without sin to those expecting Him for salvation. Isa. 53:12

Rev 5:7 And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him sitting on the throne.
8 And when He took the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having harps, and golden bowls full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.
9 And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the scroll, and to open its seals, because You were slain, and by Your blood purchased us to God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 and made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign over the earth.

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 11, 2004, 07:27:17 AM

"So according, to Christ is EVERYONE who calls on the name of the Lord going to be saved? No. (This one is a Rhetorical question) "

No, not everyone, it is whosoever.

Quote from: MalkyEL on February 12, 2004, 07:38:26 PM

Petro wrote: My eyes light up, when I see scriptures that sound foreign to me.

Please tell me which scripture version you are quoting from.
==================
I hope that your eyes lighting up means a positive response 8) !!! I use the "Literal Translation" by Jay P. Green Sr. based on the TR.

malkyel,

You posted the first scripture as follows;

Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf,
26 that He might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
27 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious assembly, not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things, but that it be holy and without blemish.

What did'nt sound right was the end of verse 26, at;

"the water in the Word"

It would be interesting to see, what JP Green, comments about the verse;

I see He or you, capitalzed the word, Word at this verse, no doubt intended and refering to Jesus the living word.

My Greek-English inter-linear lexicon, reads;

"that he might sanctify, having cleansed [it] by the washing of water by [the] word,

I need to give this translated verse more thought, before commenting on it.

The issue with me, on this is the person of the trinity being credited with the sanctifying cleansing, the lexicon gives clear meaning that it is the spoken word that cleanses (Jhn 15:3), and that might refer to the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit the third person of the triune Godhead.

There may not be anything to this, but, somehow I see, a problem with exchanging the word "in" for the word "by".

I am not trying to split hairs, It just simply popped out glaringly, when I read the verse, and it didn't sound right.

For anyone that doesn't scrutnize words, this is a none issue I suppose, but I like to be very carefull about words, afterall, they convey Gods own words put into the mouth of Jesus, and refer to the issues of life and death.

Thanks,

Petro

Petro,
I am definitely on the same page as you. It is crucial for correct interpretation of the Word to make sure every word is properly applied. I have pasted from the blueletterbible - a concordance - which gives the definition of the word "ev" used in that verse. The Greek is a preposition and can be interpreted as on, in, with, etc.
Just food for thought - Jesus is the Word - John 1:1, 14. So the cleansingwashing of/in/by/with the Word is really all in the same ballpark. I am curious as to why you separate out the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God/Jesus, so therefore the work is God's. I understand that it is the power of the Spirit, but I find is not condusive to split up the work per se, between Who does what. When I read the Book, I believe it is God speaking to me and He will accomplish His work in me as I remain submitted to Him, however He chooses.

Lexicon Results for en (Strong's 1722)
Greek for 1722

Pronunciation Guide
en {en}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 2:537,233 a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
Part of Speech
prep
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) in, by, with etc.

Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 2800
AV - in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62,
through 39, misc 264; 2800

Thayer's Lexicon (Help)

Quote from: unworthy servant on February 10, 2004, 05:43:09 PM

You forgot hear before believe. What was Peter doing bfore the " what shall we do?" was asked?
He was preaching to them. They heard , were pricked in their hearts by the word of God and asked, " what shall we do?".

Romans 10:12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Quote from: MalkyEL on February 13, 2004, 07:12:05 PM

malkyel,

I don;t disagree with words and definitions of this.

I am, thinking of many who seem to worship the Holy Spirit instead of Jesus.

This same exchange of two other words appear at;

Gal 2
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

Gal 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we. too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

Do these two verses state exactly the same thing?

How does JP Green quote the verse?

"Of" and "in", are not synonomous in the english vocabulary, or are they?

Petro

Petro wrote:
This same exchange of two other words appear at;

Gal 2
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

Gal 2
16 know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we. too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. NIV

Do these two verses state exactly the same thing?

How does JP Green quote the verse?

"Of" and "in", are not synonomous in the english vocabulary, or are they?
=====================
I looked it up - he uses both - his online Bible uses in and his linear NT uses into/of.

If I may interject here - it is hard, at times, to define the English compared to the Greek. This verse has a concept that I have begun to understand in a little more depth recently. Faith in God is of God. In other words - we do not have faith on our own. It is a gift. Therefore; to say we have faith in Messiah or of Him is really saying the same thing. It is His faith in us, not ours.

If I say to you, I have love in my heart for God or I say the love of my heart is God - am I saying the same thing? For me, the answer is yes. I cannot love God if He is not in me.

Shalom, Nancy 8)

Quote from: MalkyEL on February 17, 2004, 09:29:02 PM

nancy,

Precisely, You have explained it exactly as it is worded herein.

The faith which saved us, is not ours, but is the faith of Jesus (in His heavenly Father), who gave himself for us, of which faith we are made partakers, God then giving as a gift faith to even believe in Jesus, for this belief is a gift of God.

I have been sharing this over and over herein, and I am not sure if anyone has grasped it yet..

Yet you have stated it precisely.

Many will agree salvation is 100% of God, but if asked to explain this idea, none can, they always state, they believed, and will even argue this point as being their part in their salvation.

Yet the verse which even make sit clear, belief in Jesus was given by God is;

Phil 1
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Having shared this with you, I wonder if you would go so far as to agree with this?

Somehow, I just do not see this as off the mark, I see the claim man believes or produces some kind of faith, as being off the mark..and from there all other sorts of errors are born.

I am still interested in hearing how JP Green has translated the verses.

My problem is that the unlearned, can get derailed, by the misuse of these little words, "faith of Jesus", does not sound the same as "faith in Jesus", unless you understand that faith is a gift, many do not believe this is so..they see the grace of Eph 2:8-9 as a gift, but faith is not, I see both as being a gift, which means to me salvation is 100% of God.

If you could please post them for me..

Blessings,

Petro

Petro: Many will agree salvation is 100% of God, but if asked to explain this idea, none can, they always state, they believed, and will even argue this point as being their part in their salvation.

Yet the verse which even make sit clear, belief in Jesus was given by God is;

Phil 1
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Having shared this with you, I wonder if you would go so far as to agree with this?

Somehow, I just do not see this as off the mark, I see the claim man believes or produces some kind of faith, as being off the mark..and from there all other sorts of errors are born.
====================================
Nancy: I totally agree with you. We are born children of darkness and having no love of His Light or Truth in us. For this reason, Jesus was sent - He is the Light of the World, the Way, the Truth, and the Life. He is the Creator of all things. Faith comes from Him for He is faith. The moment we believe that anything that comes from within ourselves has any fragment or element of righteousness we are full of pride and deception.

Rom 12:3 For through the grace which is given to me, I say to everyone being among you, not to have high thoughts beyond what is right to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God divided a measure of faith to each.

Rom 10:17 Then faith is of hearing, and hearing through the Word of God.[Jesus is the Word of God made flesh - John 1:14]

Jude :3 ¶ Having made all haste to write to you about the common salvation, beloved, I had need to write to you to exhort you to contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Jude :20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up by your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21 keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to everlasting life.

Hebrew 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please God. For it is right that the one drawing near to God should believe that He is, and that He becomes a rewarder to the ones seeking Him out.
8 Having been called out by faith, Abraham obeyed to go forth to a place which he was going to receive for an inheritance; and he went out not understanding where he went.
[in reading this chapter, "by faith" accompanies each example of faith - verse 8 - Abe was called out by faith]

Heb 12
1 So therefore we also, having so great a cloud of witnesses lying around us, having laid aside every weight and the easily surrounding sin, through patience let us also run the race set before us,
2 looking to the Author and Finisher of our faith, Jesus, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, "and sat down at the right" of the throne of God. Psa. 110:1
3 For consider Him who had endured such gainsaying of sinners against Himself, that you do not grow weary, fainting in your souls.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said to the Lord, Give us more faith.
6 But the Lord said, If you had faith as a grain of mustard, you may say to this sycamine tree, Be rooted up and be planted in the sea! And it would obey you.
7 But which of you having a slave plowing or feeding will say at once to him coming out of the field, Come, recline?
8 But will he not say to him, Prepare something what I may eat, and having girded yourself, serve me until I eat and drink, and after these things you shall eat and drink?
9 Does not he have thanks to that slave because he did the things commanded of him? I think not.
10 So also when you have done all things commanded you, you say, We are unprofitable slaves, for we have done what we ought to do.
[imho, I believe Jesus is saying: you want more faith? - then do what I have commanded you and I will give you the faith you need to obey - it comes from Me as your Master]
=======================================
Petro: I am still interested in hearing how JP Green has translated the verses. . . If you could please post them for me..

Gal 2:16 [LITV] 16 knowing that a man is not justified by works of Law, but that it is through faith in Jesus Christ (we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law). Psa. 123:2
Psa 123:1,2 I will lift up my eyes on You, O Dweller in Heaven.
2 Behold, as the eyes of servants look to the hand of their masters; as the eyes of a maiden to the hand of her mistress; so our eyes wait on Jehovah our God, until He shows grace to us.

Jay Green's Literal Translation online: litvonline.com
Jay Green's Modern King James Version: mjkvonline.com
==============================
Petro: My problem is that the unlearned, can get derailed, by the misuse of these little words, "faith of Jesus", does not sound the same as "faith in Jesus", unless you understand that faith is a gift, many do not believe this is so..they see the grace of Eph 2:8-9 as a gift, but faith is not, I see both as being a gift, which means to me salvation is 100% of God.

Nancy: Absolutely. What is man? but a breath - all have fallen short of the glory of God.

Shalom, Nancy 8)

Quote from: MalkyEL on February 18, 2004, 01:22:55 PM

2

malkyel,

Ref; JP Greens Gal2:16 ..........(we also believed into Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of Law, because all flesh will not be justified by works of Law).

All that to explain the insertion of the little word "in".

Fat Book..

Thanks for your response....

Blessings,
Petro

ChristiansUnite Forums

Theology => General Theology => Topic started by: Ambassador4Christ on January 26, 2004, 12:15:05 AM