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That interval of time which separates the removal of the Church from the earth and the return of Christ to earth is designated by various descriptions in the Word of God. Isaiah calls it the day of vengeance (Isaiah 61:2). Jeremiah calls it the time of Jacobs trouble (Jeremiah 30:7). It is called the great day of the Lord in Zephaniah 1:14, and a time of trouble in Daniel 12:1. The Lord Jesus calls it the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19-20.

For then shall great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be’ (Matthew 24:21).

The Tribulation is quite different from “tribulation” The word itself literally “to trash,” “to crush.” It carries with it the thought of sorrow and suffering and affliction. Most people some time in life suffer various forms of “tribulation.” (See
Job 14:1, John 16:33, Romans 12:12) But the period of time designated as Great Tribula-tion (or The Great Tribulation. Rev. 7:14) is more personal affliction or individual sorrow. It is a definite, specific period in which certain events will take place.

The Great Tribulation is always either directly started or specifically  indicated  as  being connected with Israel. In Jeremiah 30:7 it is called the Time of Jacob’s Trouble. Why Jacob? It is because of something  that happened in Jacob’s life that foreshadowed this tribulation time. It goes back to the night of Jacob’s trouble in Genesis 32:24-30. After some twenty years of exile, Jacob was about to return to his own land. He had reached the border when he heard of Esau’s plan to come and meet him with an army of men. Hearing of this Jacob became afraid and distressed. Through the night he cried to God for deliver-ance. He pleaded for mercy in his hour of crisis.

It was in this night of suffering and anguish that the Lord in mercy changed his name from Jacob to Israel. It was here that God showed more than mercy. He extended grace. For the name Israel means ‘a prince with God.’ So there will come a time when the nation Israel will be in similar circumstances of fear and distress. It will be the time of Jacob’s trouble, the hour of crisis for the nation Israel, The Great Tribulation.

It may not arrive until Israel returns to the Land. But is must come upon Israel before that nation enters into the millennial king-dom. And then during this time of crisis the Anti-Christ will strike fear into the hearts of the nation Israel, as did Esau to the man Israel long ago. And then Israel will cry to God (Matthew 6:13), and it is then that God will show mercy and grace to them. (Romans 11).

All this is yet future. It did not occur at the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 as some erroneously believe. At that time Israel was driven out of the land and scattered. They were not ‘saved’ not ‘delivered,’ but literally lost in the sea of nations. But at the close of the Tribulation time there shall come a ‘Deliverer,’ the Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And so all Israel shall be saved.’ (Romans 11:26).

The great Tribulation is imminent. It will be the most terrible time in all man's history. 'There shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation.' (Daniel 12:1) 'For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation.' (Mark 13:19; Matthew 24:21) Now is the day of salvation!
Dr. Henry Grube

Dr. Henry Grube was pastor of Greystone Bible Church; he went home to be with LORD in 1968.
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2 Tim 2:15  Study to show thyself approved unto God, a  workman  that needeth  not  to  be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I asked this question in the apologetics page and have not received a solid answer.  What is the Biblical basis for the seven year tribulation?  This tract above is all theoretical if the basis for the tribulation is not established.

One can not find in scripture the phrase " The Great Tribulation" .
Jesus speaks of great tribulation but not  as an event unto its self.

Reba,
I'm aware that Jesus mentions "great tribulation".  The question is, how do people come up with the conclusion that it is seven years long?  The only time period associated with great tribulation is a 10 day period mentioned in Rev. 2:10.  That is the same time period between the ascencion of Jesus and Pentecost.

There is no biblical bases for the 7-year tribulation. It is a Theory invented by the Jesuit priest Fr. Francisco Ribera as part of the counterreformation, then recycled years later by Protestants. You can always count on the Jesuits to mess things up. ::)

I have some good news, guys! The Tribulation is OVER! ;) ;D

It $ell$ book$  $hee$h

As i said in the apologetics forum, Daniel 9:27 says,

for one week (7 years) a covenant will be signed with Israel by the prince (antichrist), and in the middle of that week (3.5 years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end.

How long is it till the end?  

Dan 12:11  And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  (3.5 years)

Jewish calander runs on 360 day years.  1,260 days/360 = 3.5 years.  If you start with one week (7 years or sevened), when the Antichrist signs is agreement with Israel, 3.5+3.5 you get seven years (one week).   Jesus made reference to this prophecy in Matt 24.  We also see in Rev 11:2 about the Gentiles treading under foot the temple for 42 months/12 = 3.5 years (last half).  

Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 42months/12month year= 3.5 years again last half.  

Rev 11:3  And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  1,260 days/360 = 3.5 years.  Again one half (in this particular case I believe the first half).  So using these numbers from scripture, and knowing that Daniel says 70 weeks are determined on Israel, and only 69 have been fulfilled, that leaves one week or 7 years yet to be seen.   During the middle of the 7 - 3.5 the antichrist will take away the daily sacrifice, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, then there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days till the end 3.5 years.

So, the last week begins when the Antichrist signs HIS covenant with Israel.  This is when the 70th week (or 7 years) begins.

Grace and Peace!

I'm not sure I follow you here Tibby.  I can't tell if you are jesting or not...lol.  Please clarify.   :)

Grace and Peace!

I assume you are referring the my comment on the Tribulation being over… I was kind of joking about they way I said it, but what I said is no joke. The Great Tribulation was in 70 A.D. with the Destruction of Jerusalem.

Both Strong's Strongest Concordance and Websters Collegiate Dictionary define tribulation as an 'oppression' or 'trial' .

In the opening pages of Revelation John writes that he is here with us in our tribulation.  

Here is a thought:

The tribulation started with the ascension of Christ into heaven.  

All the apostles but John were killed and died violent deaths.  Up until Constantine declared [his version] Christianity the official religion of Rome, Christians were persecuted and killed, remember Paul stood by as Stephen was stoned to death.

Even though the Romans stopped their persecution of the Christians, the world did not and the Roman Catholic Church was all to happy to persecute anyone who did not follow THEIR doctrine but instead followed the teachings of Christ.

The United States is barely 400 years old and we have not had foreign armies invade us for almost two hundred years, so persecution to us is a difficult concept.  

When Jesus ascended into heaven the tribulation for Christians started.  When the 6th seal is opened we know [ because it is called the Day of the Lord] that Jesus is not far behind.

LinuxGeek

Try being a Southern Catholic.  ;) ;D

Hmm, I was afraid you might say something like that  :-\

OK, a few questions just to provoke some thought (not debate)....if the tribulation was in 70 AD, how do you account for the following...

1.  When was the gospel preached to all nations in the world?
2.  When and who was the Antichrist?
3.  When and what was the mark of the beast that the antichrist forced every man, rich, poor, and slave, to receive in order to sell and buy?
4.  Who was the 200 million man army?  (if there were even that many people on the earth in 70 AD, we would have to include almost everyone as being part of this army.  Which begs another question.)
5.  When did they kill a thrid part of mankind? (and why would an army kill a third of itself?)
6.  When did Euphrates river dry up to prepare the way for the 200 million man army?
7.  Where are we now in your timeline, although more than a thousand years (of peace?) have passed?
8.  When was Jerusalem forever removed from being the burdensome stone?
9. Why has it now returned to that status in our times?
10. When did all the Jews shout, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord," as Jesus predicted?
   
Do you see the problems these create?   I can think of many more.  I have heard the 70 AD claims before, but it simply does not account for numerous prophecies that are most certainly part of the tribulation scenario that have never happened.  In order to make 70AD the magical year, one has to either ignore the other prophecies completely, or be left with a plethera of scripture passages that do not agree with one another, or severly twist the interpretation of the Bible to make it all fit.   I hope this doesn't sound as though I am being harsh, thats not my intent.  I just don't know what else to say.   :-X

Grace and Peace!

Rom 1:8

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
KJV

Rom 10:18

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
KJV

 1 John 2:18

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
KJV


What scripture says an antichrist will force every man…..? There are only 4 verses, in all of scripture, that  speak of antichrist, and not one of them elude to a single person as in "THE antichrist." The littel books of John are the only place the scripture uses the word antichrist.




 Do we pick and choose which scripture to take literally and when they are symbolic ?

 Luke 13:34-35

34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
I do not understand what status you are speaking of…. Jerusalem is not the capitol of Israel nor is  it the spiritual center of anything.
 The gospels tell us...

John 12:13
13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV

Mark 11:9

9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:KJV

John 12:13

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luke 19:38

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
KJV

KJV  ************
OK, a few scriptrues just to provoke some thought (not debate). ;)

Hi Reba,

We have much ground to cover here.


While I accept these verses as they are, its hard to conceive he is refering to the entire earth here.  Somehow I don't think people in the America's had received the gospel here.  Surely he means the known world or Roman empire.  Either way, I will give you these.  :)


There have been many antichrists, but THE final one has not come yet.  He tells them they have heard that THE antichrist (singular) will come.   If he came in 70 AD who was he?  I believe Titus was the one who sent troops to destroy the temple.  But I don't see how he connects to the antichrist in Revelation, as he is suppose to be thrown into the lake of fire.


First to show who this man is.

Dan 7:24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Clearly one individual.  Revelation sheds more light on the same man who is referred to as the beast.

Rev 13:5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations

And here he forces all great and small, rich and poor, free and slave to receive his mark.

Rev 13:16  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And here...

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Rev 19:20 says the Beast and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire when christ returns.

Note: the beast is not Satan, as Satan is put in the bottemless pit for 1000 years.  In Rev 19:20 the antichrist is thrown into the lake of fire along with the false prophet.


I assume you refering to my post about the locusts.  I think I was fairly clear when I said the locusts could be something else because of the language John uses describing them.  Sounds like, looks like, something like.  As I have always said, when the text makes plain sense, seek no other sense.   So yes, a litteral reading is required, unless the text indicates otherwise.

Rev 9:16  And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand(200,000,000): and I heard the number of them.

He says this is the number of the army he heard!  Litterally.

Rev 16:12  And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

The water of great river of Euphrates dried up...preparing the way for the Kings of the east.  This is what John says he saw!  Litterally.

Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

A Thousand years is mentioned 6 times in Rev 20 after this period of tribulation.  I am just currious how Tibby ties this into his timeline of 70 AD.


Jesus has not returned to the house of Israel yet..still waiting for the day when they all say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord as some did when Jesus first entered Jerusalem...they still await for messiah.  In 1948 Israel declared itself a nation again.  Today they are very much the burdensome stone of middle east peace for every nation in the world that has interest there.  I suspect Israel will accept either the false prophet or the beast in Revelation as messiah.


Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel?   ???  I assume you must mean something else here?...but in a litteral sense Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (I'm not sure I understand).   It may not be the spiritual center of anything as far as the church goes, but God speaks of Israel being a burdensome stone.   God has turned to the gentiles who now accept him, but Israel is still Gods chosen people.  


Zec 12:2  Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:3  And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

Watch an hour of CNN and tell me the peace of Israel is not on the top of every nations priority for the region.  She is the key to the region, and is deffinately a cup of trembling to everyone in the middle east.  If this ended in 70 AD why is Israel the highlight of middle east peace issues today?   God is not finished with his chosen people, and the time of Jacobs trouble (or tribulation period) will deal directly with the Israel and her disbelief.

For the sake of room (too many quotes)....the other scripture you quote about the palm branches and so forth, saying blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord-- In Matthew this all happened as Jesus entered Jerusalem, well before Jesus foretold those in the temple, he would not return to their house until he heard this from them.  As far as I know, this did not happen in or after 70 AD again.  Israel is still blind to Christ their messiah.

 

Good stuff Reba.  I love talking about endtimes.  I don't like it when it turns into fighting.  That doesn't help anyone, and it certainly does not bring out the best in us.   I do like to hear how others see things playing out.  I must admit, I have not heard too many folks discuss the 70 AD theory before.  While I don't personally accept it, I am currious as to why some come to that conclusion.  If nothing else, it forces us to search the scriptures, and thats always a good thing.

Grace and Peace!

You’re no thinking 4th dimensionally! No one never said when the Trib was going to be, whither it was going to be before or after any other this. You see, those questions you asked are based on ONE thing:

That your interpretation of the End times is the Correct one. That the parts you say are literal are, and the part that you say are symbolic are, and the parts you added in are credible. For example, the Antichrist doesn't have to be a "who" at all.

Rev 1:1-3
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
KJV


Believing God to understand the time frame He created for man... the words  'shortly' and 'at hand' meant just what they said.

70 ad fits in also with the the generation thing.  

Matt 24:34

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

Tim,

 You correctly challenged my thoughts…. So I went searching I had thought for years Tel Aviv was the capital of Israel . This is a little quote from a site  “Tel Aviv serves a number of the capital functions together with the official capital of Israel, Jerusalem (not recognized by the international society, and not any neighbour country). “ If the people of Israel consider Jerusalem to be the capital then it is.  Thanks  

Hey Tibby,

I know there are numerous beliefs about how endtime prophecy unfolds, and just like you say, it all boils down to how one interprets scripture.   I personally do base that on a litteral interpretation mainly because Jesus gave examples of litteral interpretation of scripture in his day as it related to OT prophecy.  Before I give a few examples, please understand that I am a truth seeker and do not wish to be wrong about my understanding of these things.  If you have scriptural evidence contrary to what I say, please share it.  I may not agree, but like I said to Reba, it forces us to dig into the word and see if what we believe really has basis, rather than accepting it at face value.   I have heard the 70 AD argument before, but just in passing and never really understood how one fully comes to that conclusion based on a prophetic whole.  Theres really only two ways of interpreting scripture.  The first is to draw meaning from the text itself, and second, to read meaning into the text in a spiritual or allegorical way which may not be readily seen on the surface.  I agree that there are "depths" if you will, in scripture.  Like parables, dual meanings, etc.  But to read and understand the bible in a plain and literal sense first, allows the holy spirit to teach deeper meaning, bringing the word to life.   Jesus and the deciples give us golden examples of litteral interpretation.

Mat 22:41  While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
Mat 22:42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
Mat 22:43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mat 22:45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Mat 22:46  And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Jesus knew that their answer would be that the messiah would be the son of David.  He then reminded them that David under inspiration of the holy spirit not only recognised his future decendant to be messiah, but also his LORD, showing them the inconsistancy of their interpretation of Psalms 110.  The problem was, how could Davids son also be Davids Lord?  They either had to change their theology and admit Jesus' claim to be messiah and equal with God was consistant with prophecy, or say that the scriptures were in error.  The whole argument was wrapped around the litteral phrase "the lord said unto my lord".   They refused to accept a litteral interpretation of this passage, because it did not fit their pressuposition about the coming messiah.  This is a perfect example by Jesus himself showing us grammatical and litteral interpretation of scripture.

Heres another example of Litteral interpretation of prophecy by Jesus where it holds duality and a gap of time between fulfillment.

Luk 4:14  And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.
Luk 4:15  And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
Luk 4:16  And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
Luk 4:17  And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord

Jesus read to this point in Isa 60:1-2 and stopped mid sentence....

Luk 4:20  And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21  And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

It was not customary to read such a short passage, much less stop in mid sentence.  The final part of Isa 61:2b is ....

Isa 61:2  [....], and the day of vengeance of our God; [....]

Had Jesus read the ending he could not have stated that "today this scripture is fulfilled".  Because the coming of messiah opened the age of Grace to us, not vengeance.  The day of vengeance is associated with the day of the lord and endtime events.   A perfect example given by Jesus himself, showing how many years can be separated by one comma in a prophetic passage.

So I guess I am guilty as you say as taking verses litterally.  Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense.  Where the text does not make plain sense, we have to ask the holy spirit to open our eyes so we can understand what is meant.

Grace and Peace!

I can see this.  Shortly and at hand makes a lot of sense, for me, it just doesn't address the other things John was shown in the visison.  What about the Lord returning to earth with his army, where every eye shall see him, not to mention all the other events of wrath that Jesus says in Matt. had that time not be shortened no flesh would survive.   Shortly to the Lord, could be many years.  You know the verse, a day as a thousand, a thousand as a day.  I can certainly understand how someone would see it the way you explain Reba.  For me, it just doesn't add up taking everything else John saw into account.   I will address the generation thing below.


To be honest, I am not sure what to make of this verse.  I know the desciples ask Jesus 3 questions at the beginning of the olivet discourse.  
1. when shall these things be? (temple destroyed)
2. and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
3. and of the end of the world?

There is a broad range of thought on the "generation" verse.  Some see it as you do, regarding 70 AD.  Some see it as Israel rebudding in the end day.  Some read generation as "race" saying that Israel as a race would not pass.   I'm not sure how to take this passage.  I tend to lean towards Israel rebudding in the last days, but I am not really sure about that.  

My question is....Jesus said this generation would not pass till ALL these things be fulfilled.  When was the sign of the coming of the son of man in the clouds with great glory, and all the tribes will that morned?  When were the Elect gathered by angels with trumpets?   Jesus also said, then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  Jesus says if those days were not shortened nearly all flesh would be destroyed.  I think most would agree we have seen worse times in our century than ever happened in 70 AD.   The language John uses in Revelation makes it sound as if most of mankind will be killed during the time he described.   A third of mankind here, a third there, etc etc.  So for me its hard to place 70 AD as the magical year or time frame when all these things happened.   So to me, the parable of the fig tree must either address only the question of the temple being destroyed, and the persecution the deciples would face, or it must mean something else, perhaps when Israel would be re-born as a nation and all these events would culminate together during one period of time.

Again, I stress...I really don't know.  In my own mind, I just cannot make sense of 70 AD addressing everything Jesus said it was going to be in the passage.


No problem, I wasn't sure what you meant by your statement, so thats why I asked.   I actually double checked myself, just to make sure things had not changed....lol

Grace and Peace!

One of the differences ....

The Death of CHRIST. This is a very big deal. His death, ressurection the whole program. Is like nothing else man will ever see. Nothing that is or ever will be in history will compare to the sacrifice of and on the CROSS. I see the distruction of the city, temple, the religious higharcy of that time pictured in Revelation.  

 Reading the begining of the book literaly, comparing scripture to scripture  the words shortly and at hand anyone in this day can do a  search of those words, scripturaly speaking they have common meaning.  

Good attitude. To bad you aren’t Anti-Catholic ;)

You make a good point. However, I think the reason he gave literal citations for when he talked about old scripture is because he was quoting it, to give people things to relate to. In the second passage you gave, he was reading directly from the scripture, so of course it is going to be literally spoken.

I don’t know, all this Electronic Chips and Nuclear War Theory just seems a bit to Gnostic for my taste. Needless to say, I’m not down on all of that stuff.

Where do we draw the line on what to take literally. Surely you don’t take ALL of the end time prophecy literal? Surely you don’t think an actual lamb is going to lead the Army. Surely you don’t think I women large enough to touch the sun, moon, and stars is going to big birth, and a giant dragon will try to eat the baby. Where the text makes sense, seek no other sense, that is good, but if half of a text doesn’t make sense in our physical world, and it is all mixed in with the stuff that does make sense, it makes one wonder if it is really meant to be read in such a manor, mid chapter, switching from Literal to symbolic.

If we apply this to beginning of the book, then it must also agree with this at the end...

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Has this happened yet?

Rev 22:3  And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rev 22:4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rev 22:5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. Rev 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

To accept shortly in the beginning as already happened, we have to also accept shortly here at the end as it also says these things are faithful and true, and must come shortly.  Just prior to this chapter, he says he saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the former had passed away.  So if we take this litterally, then "shortly" must be much longer to God, than it is to us.  Notice the thousand years between Christ coming back in great power and glory, till the great white throne judgment.   Yet the he says right after that these things must come shortly.   A thousand years is not short by our definition of the word.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, it just doesn't make sense that way.  There is however another passage of scripture that speaks to this very topic (judgment, endtime) regarding Gods view of "time frame" and the endtime judgments


2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If you read the entire chapter 3 (2 Peter), this is addressing those people who deny the coming of the lord (scoffers), "saying where is his coming and judgment?"   Yet he addresses how time to God is different than ours 1000 years= day, day= 1000 years.  This makes more sense to me regarding the "shortly" used in Revelation, and also that many of the things in Rev seem absent from history.

Scripture interpreting scripture.

Grace and Peace!

365 X 1000  = 365,000

Tell me has it been  2000 X 365,000 = 730,000,000  years sence Jesus was on the  cross?


How do we understand 1000  in Revelation to be  a literal number when compaired to

Ps 50:10

10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.
KJV
 
who owns the cattle on hill number 1001?

Hey Tibby,


Many places in Revelation are explained in detail by either an Elder, an angel, or the Lord.  Not everything, but some.  Many other symbolic imagries can be explained somewhere in the Bible.  A concordence is very useful in many cases.  Daniel is also a mirror to much of Revelation, and in that book also, an angel explains what He is seeing many times.  So we have been given the clues as to how these visions are seen and interpreted by heavenly beings.   No I don't believe a 7 headed beast is going to rise up off the Atlantic wearing crowns whilest a prostetute rides it....lol   Again, this scene is described in detail by an angel explaining each thing that John saw.  

So we have insight from the angel, as well as previous prophets who were also given insight by angels.  Revelation is clearly meant to be studied and interpreted.  No question that some of it is difficult, but its obvious that God feels he has given us enough examples and clues that we can search his word and heart to understand what he has showed us in these books.   Its up to us to dig in and understand whats there.

Grace and Peace!

Tim,

 I do not see rapture as many do in todays world.... BUT  your little  raptured smiley makes me smile every time i see him.... :)

Wouldn't that be days instead of years?  365 days X 1,000 years = 365,000 days.  :P  Calm down Reba!   :D  Whoever owns hill 1001 will surely have to deal with the odor coming from the cows on the other thousand hills....lol  j/k sorry couldn't resist!

I see your point about taking the 1000 years litterally, but threaded throughout Revelation, John gives specific lengths of time pertaining to various events in number of days, months, and years.   I see no reason in any of the text to dismiss these time frames as litteral.  I get the impression John was trying to be very accurate with what he saw and heard.  Yes even when the Lord said shortly!  But as I have shown in that case we do have reason to seek other sense of the text, because all these things mentioned did not happen shortly....still waiting for Christ to return and rule on earth, and for the heavens and the earth to pass away with fire.   2 Peter chapter 3 sheds tremendous light on this, and its even relevant to the same subject in his text.

Grace and Peace!

Surly many have sung the hymn All Hail King Jesus  all hail Emanuel  King of Kings Lord of Lords....Is He not King?  

His very  words say  'My kingdon is not of this world...' because He says His kingdom is not of this earth does that make Him less the King?

The Jews 200O (730,000,000 days  :P  ) years ago did not see Him as their King.

He rules He reigns He is King of kings...

1 Peter 3:22
 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers beingmade subject unto him. KJV

Matt 28:18

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.KJV

I agree Reba.  He is King of Kings and lord of lords.  He does not yet reign on earth yet however.  Revelation says he is physcially coming back to rule and reign on earth, and we will reign with him!

Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

We still await this, after which time we will rule with him for 1,000 years.  After the 1,000 years, a new heaven and a new earth will be made.

Rev 21:1  And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What a glorious vision and promise that awaits us.  Life will be as it was intended from the beginning.  

Grace and Peace!

The Jews of old did not believe He reigns...

1 Chron 16:29-31

29 Give unto the LORD the glory due unto his name: bring an offering, and come before him: worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness.

30 Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved.

31 Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice: and let men say among the nations, The LORD reigneth.
KJV

Ps 47:8

8 God reigneth over the heathen: God sitteth upon the throne of his holiness.
KJV

Ps 93:1-2
93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.

2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
KJV

Ps 96:9-10

9 O worship the LORD in the beauty of holiness: fear before him, all the earth.

10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
KJV

Ps 97:1
97:1 The LORD reigneth; let the earth rejoice; let the multitude of isles be glad thereof.
KJV

Ps 99:1
:1 The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubims; let the earth be moved.
KJV

Isa 52:6-7

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

"He does not yet reign on earth yet however."  

Matthew 28:18.  And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

 1 Corinthians 15:20.  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
 21.  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
 22.  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
 23.  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
 24.  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 25.  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 26.  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 27.  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
 28.  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.







How do Christians reign with Christ?

Romans 5:17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 2 Timothy 2:11.  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
 12.  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


 

Amen Ollie   :)

Very interesting stuff, Tim. I will look into it more. I'm not the Esca-buff in this neck of the woods, But I'll have to bring your point up to him next time I see him.

Haha, I've seen that rapture smiley so many times, and still never noticed it. ;D

That would be known as 'triple tasking'; smiling, waving and being raptured all at the same time.

Jesus said "...no man shall know the time..." but I'm beginning to think Tim knows something we don't - how else would he know to smile and wave 'goodby' at the exact second of '...in the twinkling of an eye..."??????  ;D

Judge   while in the City ... stand on the corner waving good bye  with a dumb smile on your face  ... ya never know and you'll fit right in.....

LOL ten times over!  That would be me!!!!!  :D  :D  :D

(I'd be the one screaming "Heterophobic!" as they stone me!")  ;D

Hey guys,


One word.  SHALL used twice in the above verses.

We SHALL also live WITH him.  We SHALL also reign WITH HIM.   I am not arguing that God does not reign.  I agree he has all power given to him, but the early state of man and the earth in Genesis has not yet been restored.  We SHALL reigh and RULE with him over the earth.  We do not rule over the earth at present.  Greater is he that is IN me than HE that is IN the world.  The gates of hell do not prevail against us his church, and we seek to spread his gospel where hells gates will not stand against us. (Gates stand and protect, they do not attack).  The world is in total chaos at present.  The Lord is not the author of confusion.  When he reigns and rules over the earth in the end all this will cease.  No death, no sorrow, no pain, all these will pass away.   If anyone believes this is the current state of the world, sombody please pinch me!  

Isa 11:4  But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5  And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
Isa 11:6  The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7  And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

The perfect nature that was GOOD in Genesis chapter 1 will be restored.  This does not happen until the end of Revelation, which is the whole theme of scripture.  Bringing us back to the fullness of God where we can live and rejoice in his physical presense without sin.   Death and the Grave still reign over our physical bodies until we put on incorruption.   That is our destiny!

1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Those who live in Christ are assured this promise....the blessed hope.  We havent put on incorruption yet.  We are still under deaths physical curse, and still go to the grave when we die physically.  This all changes when God reigns with man on the earth.

Rev 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The 2 final enemies are defeated and cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Praise God!   Christ has all power given to him, and these enemies will finally be put under his feat.  But this has not happened yet and certainly not in 70 AD.

Earth is yet wicked, and is still ruled by Satan.

Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I'm not making this stuff up.   :)  Its all in scripture.  

Let me just say for clarity in case some misunderstand me.  I believe that Jesus has all power given him, and that he reigns forever.  Salvation is ours who believe in him.   But the world is still in sin.  Not us!  These things will be dealt with at future time.  

1Co 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

I'm just saying that these did not happen in 70 AD as it relates to the term "shortly" used in Revelation.

We are still waiting for our glorified bodies and the new heaven and new earth.

Grace and Peace!

Tibby,

From the time I was about 7, I was facinated with the return of Christ.  Bible prophecies are facinating when you start to dig into it.  About one third of the Bible is prophetic, and yet 80% of that has yet to be fulfilled.   All of the messianic prophecies were fulfilled with 100% accuracy.  Like most on this board, I believe Gods word is true, and the rest of these things must come to pass just as they are written.

I was trying to find a nice signature image.  I came accross the rapture smiley and thought it was cute.   I wanted to put it where my name is but couldn't figure out how.

JudgeNot

LOL.  No, I would never try to set dates JN.  Jesus did say we would not know the day nor the hour.  I know a lot of people try to set dates for the Lords return, but I totally disagree.  Jesus gave us signs to watch for however (even commanded us to watch), so thats all I do.   I trust Gods timing and believe things will happen just as he said they would.

And no I dont stand in the backyard jumping up with hands raised practising rapture liftoff..... :D  lol

Grace and Peace!

[/b]

ROFL  Ever hear of 8 min abbs?  How bout twinkling of an eye Raptureaerobics!  The neighbors will be amazed!

OK all together now...

(http://home.ntelos.net/~mikemickey/pics/rapture-smiley%5b1%5d.gif)(http://home.ntelos.net/~mikemickey/pics/rapture-smiley%5b1%5d.gif)(http://home.ntelos.net/~mikemickey/pics/rapture-smiley%5b1%5d.gif)(http://home.ntelos.net/~mikemickey/pics/rapture-smiley%5b1%5d.gif)   Loose weight and put on incorruption all at the same Time!

And not one is 'left behind" ?

Matthew 16
1-The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2-He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3-And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

We may not know the hour or day,but i beleive we will know the season.

No way!  All my smiley's are pre-trib   ;D  j/k

I dont know if i can put this in words....

Rapture we all say we go UPin rapture meaning to the clouds sky etc. The earth is a ball hanging around in space.... now picture the ball Christians from all over earth  going UP?

Mark13:28
Now learn a parable of the1 (fig tree); When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
29-So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30-Verily I say unto you, that this 2generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

1-I beleive is Israel,which became a nation in 1948 and became full during a 6 day war which they got the rest of there land.(1968 i beleive)

2-Generation which generation i wonder?Could be the 1948 or the 1968?

Well, all I can offer is...

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I guess the same applies to the Lord decending.  Which way in space is up towards heaven, which decends from?   I don't know!  certainly people saw Jesus litterally ascend into heaven in Acts.

Act 1:9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This same Jesus shall come again in like manner, as they saw him taken up.   From these verses I will leave the problem of which way is up for him.  All we are told is, we will meet him in the air, and it will happen in a like manner to him leaving the first time.

Grace and Peace!

What signs and wonders accompanied His assention?

 They got the rest of their land?

Gen 15:18

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
KJV

Ummm, the two angels asking why they were gazing up into the sky?

Jabez,

I have heard this proposition before about the parable of the fig tree.  It does make sense, but I myself cannot say for sure it was not a reference to what took place in 70 AD.

Never-the-less, there is no question about the other signs Jesus spoke of.  These things are all happening today and have been for some time.  For me, Israel being restored in 1948 seems rather significant.  Israel, a little tiny piece of land with no significant, tactical, or resource value, has all the world powers clamering over its peace accord with PLO.  Late news about Israel pulling up outposts in Judea is startling when viewed against Matt. 24:15-21  This is the very area that will be immediately affected when the greatest tribulation ever seen on earth begins according to Jesus.   Of course, the one missing thing is the temple in Jerusalem.   I know they have building plans for a new temple and are even training priest to perform the old sacrificial rituals.  There is still some question about its exact location in regards to the Dome of the Rock.  But If I hear talk about starting construction of this, I really will be in the back yard practising rapture takeoff.   :D   I think its a little ways off yet, but this and vagueries in the current geopolitical landscape in Israel and the EU are starting to look more and more like things described in Daniel's vision and bible prophecy.   I continue to watch very carefully things happening in Europe and the Middle East.  Might be many years away still, and it might be closer than we think.  

All we can do is keep on with the Lords work like it wont be for another 100 years, and live our lifes like it could be tomorrow.

Grace and Peace!

absolutely!One other thing,did you notice the symbol the EU is useing?

Yes I have.  Very startling when compared to Rev 17.  Somehow I don't believe that is a coincedence

Grace and Peace!

The EU symbol - do you mean the flag with 12 stars in a circle ???

Thats part of it i beleive.Hey 2nd Timothy do you have any pictures of there symbols?

All i could find...

(http://home.naxs.com/hrfritz/eu/beast2.jpg)

And this which is interesting...Tower of Babel?

(http://home.naxs.com/hrfritz/eu/babel1.jpg)

Yes I have these images saved on my HD.  I don't believe there is way to UL them to the forum though.  If there is let me know.

JudgeNot, there are a few images the EU use to symbolize themselves with, as a woman riding a bull.  The imagery is derived from the mythilogical story of Zeus and Europa.  Zeus being a god who abducts Europa by taking on the form of a bull.   Europa.com is the very name is the EU homepage website.   Greece minted a coin depicting this very scene of Europa riding the Bull.  A popular German magazine had an issue that shows scantily clad woman, riding the Bull carrying the EU flag.   There is also a sculpture outside the ministry office in brussles of ?  You guessed it!  A woman riding the mythological Bull Zues.   Not that it means a whole lot, but clearly the EU has a strange facination of scantily clad women riding bulls...lol  Reading Revelation 17 and John's description of a harlot riding a beast, its not hard to see a resemblance.   NOT that this is what he saw, but I for one don't think its coincidence.

Grace and Peace!

Do you have icq or msn or anything 2nd Timothy?I have some web space you could upload them too.

No I don't Jabez....I'm trying to locate the original resource...give me a minute of two

ok

A cover from a popular german magazine der spiegle.  I went to Alta's free translator and got this..."Good morning Europe, like the old continent the economic energy, which tackles (attacks) the USA." or something to that affect.

(http://www.inplainsite.org/assets/images/WomanBeast-DerSpiegel.jpg)


Supposedly a cover that appeared on Time Magazine, although I have not been able to confirm this.
(http://www.geocities.com/barbsguy7/EUROPATIME.jpg)


A sculpture right outside the ministries office in brussles
(http://www.thekeffs.freeserve.co.uk/EU%20Flag_files/Europa%20Statue%20-%20European%20Council%20-%20Brussels.jpg)

Stunning!

Edit to add. --->  If this is a coincedence, it is bizzare to say the least that the EU would use such imagery to identify itself with.  The coin minted in Greece which I did not post, shows the same woman riding the bull.  The known description about the coin goes into detail about how Zeus abducted Europa.  Europa is considered to be modern day Europe and in fact is the name of their official web site.  My question is, is the EU under persuation of this so called god Europa?   Greek mythology comes from no other than Babylonia where mythology and study of the stars and astrology originates from.

These may mean nothing, but its hard to ignore the resemblance.

Grace and Peace!

The images didnt show...

(http://home.naxs.com/hrfritz/eu/beast1.jpg)

The coin

They show for me.  Try right clicking on them and then click "show image"

No go for me... :(

 :'(  can anyone else see those images?

I found another source Jabez....however the middle image I cannot.  Until I find another for that one I will leave it as is.  Let me know if these work.

 They were raptured  :)

Yes i see the 2..

I see, I see

It's about time  ;D  hehe

 ;D

I agree with you The_end, once again people are focusing in Isarel when Israel have nothing to do anymore with Bible prophecy as direct as it did on the 70 weeks or 490 years of opportunity given to them by the Lord through the prophet Daniel.  And to have it more clear those who are to be the remnant of the Lord will not by any means removed from the earth. That's why in Revelation 7 it is said that that final destruction will not fall upon the earth until the servants of the living God had been seal with the His Seal.

Lpaisan

And who are those sealed in Revelation?

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel

Again missing the plain text of Gods word.


Notice carefully what is written here...

Eze 38:8  After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Behold, a restored nation after they had been gathered out of many people, and back from the sword to their promised land.

Here again is God breathed scripture describing ENDTIME events and speaking of who?  Thats right, the nation of Israel!

Zec 12:8  In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec 12:9  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.  

Zec 14:4  And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


This event is certainly not anywhere to be found in history.  Thats because it happens at the end.   Notice who it happens to...The house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem.   I included chp 14:4 just to be clear as to the geographical location.

Clearly Israel is significantly involved in a major way in endtime prophecy.  Not my words, his!

Grace and Peace!

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Crystal clear!

John 14 1-3

Are some of the best verses to "Strongs" every word of. The formatt at esword makes this very simple to do.


Strongs= look up every posibility search every word.

Good teaching, AMEN!!!!

Brother Love :)

   <:)))><