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Hello my dear friends.
I am sorry I have been absent for such a long time.
It took a lot longer to recover from my surgery than I had expected, but I am feeling pretty good today, and so I just had to get back to my cyber family!!

Before I continue I want to let you all know that I am due for one more small surgery, and will let you know as soon as I know the exact date for that one…

OK…
I have an exciting post because I have just very recently made a fantastic scriptural discovery.

It seems like on an almost daily basis I read somewhere, or have some discussion with fellow believers, and even fence sitters as to the identity and location of the coming antichrist.

I’ve heard them all from Nero to Hitler to Stalin to Poll Pot to Reagan to Bush Sr and Jr, to various foreign possibilities including British royalty to Bin there done that Laden and most recently of course it must be Obama!

I never made any claims to know simply because I did not know!
I didn’t believe the true identity or location could be made because the scriptures clearly tells us that man of sin will not be revealed until there be a “falling away” (more on this term later) first, so I never made any guesses.

Well as I related, I have made an eye opening discovery and my source is scripture exclusively.
Have a look at Rev 9:1-11... And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key of the shaft of the Abyss; 2 he opened the shaft of the Abyss and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. 3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth; 4 they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads; 5 they were allowed to torture them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torture was like the torture of a scorpion, when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, and death will fly from them. 7 In appearance the locusts were like horses arrayed for battle; on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, 8 their hair like women's hair, and their teeth like lions' teeth; 9 they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. 10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings, and their power of hurting men for five months lies in their tails. 11 They have as king over them the angel of the Abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon. [which both mean Destroyer]

So “the” antichrist is a “king angel” of all the evil spirits who are presently locked up in the Abyss. Who are these?
Well, we find out who these “fallen angels” are from scripture…

Jude 3 . 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home --these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.
Hmmm, so which angels “did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home”  again, scriptures give us the answer…
First, let’s find out exactly what this “Abyss” or “bottomless pit” is all about…

Remember when Jesus was driving out demons from a man in Luke 8?….

Luke 8:28-31 KJV “He cried out and fell down before him and with a loud voice said, “What have I to do with thee, Jesus, Son of God Most High. I beseech thee, torment me not.”

(For he had commanded the evil spirit to come out of him).

And Jesus asked him saying; “What is thy name?” And he said, “Legion,” for many demons were entered into him.

And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into THE DEEP.”   
 The NIV translates the last phrase thus;

“And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into THE ABYSS.”   

So demons are real, they have the ability to posess some of us who are not faithful believers, and they can be driven out through the the power of the Holy Spirit.
The most important thing in relation to this post is that these demons fear being sent to the Abyss!!
Therefore, from scripture we can know for certain that the Abyss holds some demons, or evil spirits including the “king angel” of the Abyss, and there are also some demons who are still roaming free on Earth…why is this, and who are these “free” demons and who are these imprisoned demons who will not be released until the final seven year wrath of God?   

TO CONTINUE 

First of all, the fallen angels who are imprisoned in the Abyss until the end are found in scriptures here…

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. (giants were born through this evil union - Goliath)

Now read Jude again…
Jude 3 . 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home --these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

So when we put these verses together we see that disobedient angels left their first estate in Heaven to come to earth and mate with human women, which produced a half human half evil spirit hybrid known as giants, and men of renown.
These hybrids are the reason disobedience and evil spread so quickly amongst God’s creation, and the reason for the flood.
So God punished both His creation - men, and these now “fallen” angles.
The angels who were involved in this sin were placed in the Abyss until the final seven years when they will be released Rev 9:1-2 and led by their “king angel” the antichrist.

Lets read more…
Rev. 11:6 These men [the two witnesses] have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want. 7Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The following verse further identifies who this “king angel” is from the Abyss, or bottomless pit…

Revelation 17:8  "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is to ascend from the bottomless pit and go to perdition; and the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will marvel to behold the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

So, Rev 17:8 describes the antichrist who comes to Earth after being released from the bottomless pit, signs a seven year peace deal Dan 9:27 then is killed Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death;

Then, antichrist fakes the resurrection…

and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

This is described in Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

“is not” the beginning of his seven year reign
“is not” during his fake death.
“shall ascend out of the bottomless pit” his reappearance and incarnation of the “king” angel’s evil spirit. It’s at this point, at the half way mark of the seven years that the spirit of the king angle, or Apollyon, actually is released from the pit and incarnates the antichrist’s human body. If we read through scriptures carefully, we see that the first two and a half years of the antichrist’s reign are a time of global happiness, peace and prosperity.
However, after Apollyon gains full control things turn sour and the whole world is engulfed in war, and wrath.

OK, so where is satan during this whole time?
Satan is busy accusing men before God day and night until he is cast out by Michael…
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Rev 12:8  And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

OK, let’s add it all up.
Satan and the antichrist are separate fallen angels. Satan is in total control of ALL demonic fallen angels, including Apollyon, the “king angel” of the Abyss.
Satan gives power to Apollyon as the antichrist, satan also gives power to the beast and the false prophet.

We know they are separate because the beast and the false prophet are tossed into the lake of fire, whereas satan is imprisoned in the bottomless pit (Abyss) for a thousand years, then after one final rebellion, satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the beast and the false prophet.

So satan has done a terrific piece of “magic” or slight of hand by imitating the Holy Trinity with his own unholy trinity - the antichrist, the false prophet, and the beast.
This evil angel will cause many to lose any hope of salvation, and as a result he will have plenty of company in Hell to go along with his other two buddies and all other evil spirits.

So, we know that the evil spirit of the antichrist is right now in the bottomless pit, or Abyss. he is the king angel of those who are also imprisoned there with him. he will incarnate his fleshly component at the halfway mark of the final seven year wrath of God. he will be captured at the return of Lord Jesus and His armies from Heaven (faithful Raptured saints - us!) and will be tossed into the lake of fire along with the false prophet.
satan will be tossed into the Abyss when Jesus returns for a thousand years. Then, satan will be released for a short time to do his evil once again, then Jesus will toss him into the lake of fire for eternity!

Good to be back!

John

OK, to state the obvious here...we still do not know who the actual "man" will be, but now I better understand who this king angel from the Abyss is.
I was somewhat confused prior to understanding these scriptures, and often wondered if this king angle, Abaddon, Apollyon was satan, but that scenario never really came together to form a scripturally cohesive picture. Now it does because I understand that Apollyon and satan are not one in the same.

It's also notworthy to notice how simillar Apolyon and the Greek god Apollo are.
It leads me to wonder about who these evil hybrid "giants" and "men of renown" may have been.
Is there more to these Greek gods than myth???

Here are some scriptural descriptions of the antichrist...

“The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those that are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.”
 (2 Thessalonians 2:9,10)


The Antichrist is a man - Daniel 7:24,25

He will confirm a covenant for seven years - Daniel 9:27

He will arise among ten kings - Daniel 7:8

This ten nation union will be a revived Roman Empire - Daniel 2:44

He will uproot three kings - Daniel 7:8

His ten nation union will merge into a world government which he will dominate - Revelation 13:1,

He will ascend to power on a platform of world peace and will by peace destroy many - Daniel 8:25

He will be promoted by a miracle working religious partner - Revelation 13:11,12

The beast was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition (destruction) - Revelation 17:8

The world government over which the Antichrist rules will be a socialist government - Revelation 17:3

The Antichrist will be preceded by seven kings. He will be the eighth, and will be ‘of’ the seven - Revelation 17:11

He will have a mouth speaking great things - Daniel 7:8

His look will be more stout than his fellows - Daniel 7:20

He will be of fierce countenance - Daniel 8:23

He will understand dark sentences - Daniel 8:23

He will cause craft to prosper - Daniel 8:25

He apparently assumes world-dominating power three and a half years after he confirms the covenant. He then will continue his reign 42 months - Revelation 13:5

The Abomination of Desolation is the event that signals the beginning of his final 42 months - Daniel 9:27

He opposes God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods - Daniel 11:36

He exalts himself above all that is called God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will sit in the Temple of God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He claims to be God - 2 Thessalonians 2:4

He will take away the daily sacrifice at the time of the Abomination of Desolation - Daniel 11:31

He shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain - Daniel 11:45

It was given him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them - Revelation 13:7

 He will make war with the saints three and a half years - Daniel 7:21, 25

 The time of the Great Tribulation launched by the Antichrist begins at the Abomination of Desolation - Matthew 24:15,21

 During this time he will scatter the power of the holy people - Daniel 12:7

He will rule a terrible and strong kingdom - Daniel 7:7

 Power was given him over every tribe and people and tongues and nations - Revelation 13:7

 His kingdom will devour the whole earth - Daniel 7:23

Arms shall stand on his part - Daniel 11:31

He shall attack the mighty fortresses with the help of a foreign god - Daniel 11:39

 He will think to change times and laws: and they will be given into his hands for three and a half years - Daniel 7:25

 He shall prosper - Daniel 8:24

 He shall not regard the god of his fathers - Daniel 11:37

He will not regard the desire of women - Daniel 11:37
The mark of the beast will be the mark of his name - Revelation 14:11

The number of the beast is 666 - Revelation 13:18

666 will be the number of his name - Revelation 15:2

All that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, except those whose names are written in the lamb’s Book of Life - Revelation 13:8

 The Antichrist will have an image -Revelation 15:2

 His coming is after the coming of Satan -2 Thessalonians 2:9

He will fight against Jesus Christ at Armageddon - Revelation 17:14

He will stand against the Prince of princes - Daniel 8:25

The Lord will destroy him with the spirit of His mouth - 2 Thessalonians 2:8   

The Lord will consume him with the splendour of His coming - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

The Beast is cast alive into the Lake of Fire - Revelation 19:20

He will be tormented day and night for ever and ever - Revelation 20:10   


John

Hello John, it's great to see you here.

Yes, I have heard of this line of thought before. It should be noted that Abaddon is referred to several times in the Old Testament:

Job 26:6  Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Pro 15:11  Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

We must keep in mind that it is satan himself that would make himself to be God just as The AntiChrist does. It is satan, the abomination that maketh desolate, that stands in the Holy Place.

You mentioned Apollo of Greek mythology. Take note that many times those of mythology were actual persons or entities that were known then but was twisted to be more than they were or to be other than they were but some semblances to remained to the original. Take note here that Apollo was the God of death. He was also know as the the lord of the silver bow, the Archer-god, far-shooting and the god of Light. This resemblance is also noted in many of the ancient non-Biblical Jewish texts that relate Abaddon to satan.

As for those that hold the story of the giants (sons of God) being an offspring of the fallen angels and yet somehow are Goliath and kin. Take note of when these giants were supposedly destroyed and when Goliath existed. Brother, there is clear scripture to show that the "sons of God" spoken of were not giant offspring of fallen angels. If I can find it again there is a fairly detailed thread on that here.



I was just reading something on the subject of the antichrist earlier that I found to be quite interesting. Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist now Christian evangelist, says that the Greek symbol that is translated in the Bible as 666 is also seen as the Arabic character "Bismillah" which means "in the name of Allah."

It is also said that in certain areas where Sharia law is imposed that it is common practice to tattoo dhimmis that have accepted the Sharia dhimma (protection contract that allows dhimmis full freedom to own property, buy, sell etc.) with some identifier that they are under the protection of Allah.

Hello brother, great to be back here with you all.


yes, I agree, it is satan. Scriptures tell us that the antichrist, the false prophet, and beast all get their power from satan. So, although it may appear that I was relaying that the antichrist is in his own right the fake Christ, what I am actually saying is that antichrist is merely another staff of satan which he turns into a snake.
In other words, satan is behind all evil and controls all fallen angels, which are evil spirits.
It's a parell argument that God and Jesus are one in the same. So as Jesus is God, so is Apolyon satan.
The difference is that God and Jesus have excluse Holy power to make this trinity real and truthful, whereas satan cannot, and so satan uses deceit and lies to accomplish his false prophetic and scriptural realities.

Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by [the means of] those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

2 thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

So although it is Apollyon, the king evil angel who scriptures, not me, clearly tell us is now locked up in the bottomless pit who incarnates this "antichrist" he gets his power from satan, which is also scripturally sound...

Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Now, I'm never going to claim to be dogmatically correct on any scripture my friend, and so when I read these scriptures I am trying to make literal sense of them because I am of the firm belief that all scripture is to be understood literally.
Yes, I know there are parables, and figurative language in scriptures, and I am not saying every word must be taken literal. I am saying we must understand scriptures literally.

For example; when Rev scripture describes horns, and heads of a dragon, we don't need to wonder what this means because we are given the literal meaning directly from the scriptures themselves....

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

In my humble opinion, the scriptures clearly state that there is a "king angle" named Apollyon who is trapped in the bottomless pit. This king angel Apollyon is not satan, we can understand this because satan is in Heaven making vile accusations against mankind to God day and night. satan later gets into war with Michael and his angles and satan loses and is thrown down to earth along with one third of the angels of Heaven who decided foolishly to follow satan over the God of eternity!! Idiots!! LOL!

I believe satan, in Heaven pretends to be God the Father. His chief angel Apollyon, is used by satan as the false Jesus, and the false prophet will be the religious face of this unholy trinity.

I also believe this false prophet will be the Islamic Mahdi, which goes along very well with your 666 information.

In the end, satan is in complete control of all his minions, and so yes, it is satan who is the false Jesus.


OK, let me make myself clear.
I'm not saying the sons of God are offspring of fallen angels and human women.
I'm saying the sons of God mated with human women and the hybrid offspring of that unholy union were giants, men of renown.

Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. (giants were born through this evil union - Goliath)

This scripture makes a distinction between "sons of God" and daughters of "men"
Therefore, this scripture tells us that angels and human women actually had children which became "mighty men of renown"


Great discussing here again.
Take care my brother.

John

Hello Brother John,

For now I'll just say welcome back - we missed you. I tried to skim part of this, but I'm far too tired right now to try and comprehend this. I must try to get some rest, and I'll try to study some of this tomorrow. I'm extremely happy to hear about your great progress with your surgery, and I know that God was with you. You have been and are in our prayers.

In the meantime - SMILE AND KEEP LOOKING UP!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 11:6 ASV  6  and without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

Hello brother!
Thank you for your kind words. I have been praying for your health also on a nightly basis.

I just want to add that I hope I am not causing any discontent with this post because that is certainly the last thing I want to do.
I'm really trying to make sense of these scriptures in a literal context and when I read the scriptures in relation to Apollyon and the bottomless pit, and his relationship and involvement as described in Revelation, I find it very difficult to dismiss the scriptural reality that Apollyon and satan, the dragon are separate evil entities with satan as the top dog as it were.

I kept insisting in my own mind that, no, this Apollyon was not, could not be the antichrist because everyone knows that is satan's role...however, I have come to a position where I am forced to admit the scriptures seem to be telling a different reality - that satan is still the evil king culprit who has, and is attempting to usurp God, yet the methods and players satan uses in order to attain this unattainable goal may not be as simplistic as I may have understood them to be.

I want to be clear though - I am not saying this is THE TRUTH, I am just trying to let His Word speak exclusively with as little of my own fallible human interpretations and understanding as possible.
If I have made a clear scriptural mistake, then I want to know about it form whoever can teach me, because i am not interested in "my" truth, I am only interested in His truth.

Take care my brother.

John

It is always a good thing to study scripture even if it is a portion that we have studied many times before.

Before going on into the subject of Abaddon/Apollyon I want to approach the issue of the "Sons Of God" as is stated in scripture.


This is true that there is a distinction made but what exactly is that distinction? You make the assumption that it is that the "sons of God" are angels:


This is something that is not really clear here who is meant. When we have a question such as this it is always best to let scripture interpret scripture. If we look through the rest of scripture we do see where God refers to certain angels as the sons of God. The book of Job is an example of this. Take note though that even though Satan is an angel he is never referred to as a son of God.

We also see through scripture where some men are called the sons of God.

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Rom 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Exo 4:22  And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exo 4:23  And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.

There are many scriptures throughout the Bible that call men the "children of God"

Deu 14:1  Ye are the children of the LORD your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

Gen 11:5  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Did you notice here in Gen 11:5 that these people are being called the children of men? This were not followers of God so therefore they get this title.

Fallen angels and demons are always referred to as Satan's children.

Next take into consideration what God says about angels and marriage.

Mat 22:30  For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Hello John, good to see ya again. I'm glad surgery worked out for you, and will keep you in my prayers for your other surgery.


I've heard those plus others. The truth is, no one knows but God, who the human anti-christ is........... One thing for sure, satan will be alive and well during the tribulation. God describes an unholy trinity, one that may already be in the making at this point in history. But, the beast will not rise to power until the latter days, known as the "tribulation", the last seven years of human history before Christ's 1,000 year kingdom

Revelation 12:9 nd the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Satan's banishment from Heaven, satan will indwell Antichrist at the mid-tribulation point. When he does so, he will make this man of lawlessness, the antichrist, the literal embodiment of satan himself. It is satan who will provide antichrist with the power and authority to rule over the entire world, in every aspect of its functioning.

God tells us that He will allow satan, through his indwelling of antichrist, to wreak as much havoc and destruction on this earth as possible. The Bible clearly states that antichrist will derive his power from the Dragon, satan himself.

Hello Roger and Bob my brothers!

OK, I'm reading your posts as carefully as I possibly can here, because I want the truth.

Please allow me to quote you Roger...

Yes, I agree. So how can we know which "sons of God" are referred to in this particular scripture?

Well, the distinction is made my friend.
The scriptures differentiate from "sons of God" and "daughters of men"
so we know in this example that the sons of God are not human. This is scripture asserting this fact, and not my own opinion.


Yes, at the resurrection this is how it will be.
I don't believe this scripture expresses that angels were not able to have relations with women, or that they did not in the past do just that because if this was true then we are forced to ignore scriptures which clearly tells us they did and were punished for it.

Also, it is important to note that satan was not listed specifically, or even inferred as one of those fallen stars who were guilty of mating with human women.
The scriptures do tell us that those fallen angles who committed this sin were in fact imprisoned in a place called the Abyss until the end days - a place which evil demonic spirits who possessed men in the scriptures were terrified of.


Hello Bob!
Please allow me to quote you as well my friend.
I am having some real problems posting. When I get down a paragraph or more, and when I try to underling, use bold text and right clicking on any text. When I attempt to do these the text flips back to the beginning and I cannot complete...any ideas?
So I will use simple quotation marks here Bob.


"Revelation 12:9 nd the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

If I take the scriptures literally, then there in Heaven is satan and his follower fallen angels...but, at the same time, we have another group of "fallen stars" who are not in Heaven, but who are imprisoned in the bottomless pit.
So, scripturally speaking, there are at least three separate groups of satan's underlings in scriptures during the same time period.

1) satan and his one third in Heaven.
2) Apollyon and his group in the Abyss
3) Those demonic spirits identified at least once in scriptures as "Legion" who are free on earth and able to posses faithless humans.

"Satan's banishment from Heaven, satan will indwell Antichrist at the mid-tribulation point. When he does so, he will make this man of lawlessness, the antichrist, the literal embodiment of satan himself. It is satan who will provide antichrist with the power and authority to rule over the entire world, in every aspect of its functioning."

OK, this is the most difficult part for me.
If I use scriptures only then I must come to the conclusion that satan "personally" does not indwell the man of sin, but rather as part of his (satan's) plan to usurp God, satan uses his chief evil angel Apollyon to accomplish this part of the plan. I know this is controversial, and as I said, if I am wrong scripturally then please let me know because I want only scriptural truth, and not my fallible understanding.
This does not in any way negate the fact that it is satan's kingdom of evil completing his will, and therefore it is ultimately satan who is responsible for the entire deviation, and therefore, we can still truthfully say that YES it is the spirit of satan who indwells this antichrist. So this does not  negate satan's guilt, or lead position or actions at all.
If I am under boss of the Mafia and I order you to kill the boss of bosses as it were, so I can become king of the mob, I am not guilty of murder ? As well as conspiracy to commit murder? As well as attempting to usurp the king? I would be a killer. In fact, I would be even more guilty than the trigger man!

"God tells us that He will allow satan, through his indwelling of antichrist, to wreak as much havoc and destruction on this earth as possible. The Bible clearly states that antichrist will derive his power from the Dragon, satan himself."

Is it not curious that the scriptures do not specifically state that satan IS the antichrist, but rather  scriptures state the antichrist "derives" his power from the dragon, satan? Does it make clear sense to say - "satan derives his power from satan"? That’s redundant.

So, in the end, my problem is  - how do I deal with these scriptures in the proper context, which describe Apollyon and the bottomless pit, while making a distinction between this Apollyon and satan as being in separate places at the same time, and as being separate entities with distinct roles and tasks under a common evil kingdom?

Please help me out scripturally to clear up these verses my friends because I am hungry for the truth.

Thanks brothers.
I am eagerly wanting to see what Tom has to say. I pray he is feeling up to the task as far as his health is concerned because I have no doubt his mind is far more than sufficient, and his knowledge of the scriptures is over whelming.

If this topic is too disruptive, please delete it and I will go onto some other topic.
I want to remain here with my friends and I do not want to be seen as a trouble maker.

Thanks brothers.

John

Actually the distinction is not made at all in that line of thinking. Take another look at the scriptures that I gave. The "sons of God" or "children of God" are quite frequently humans that are being referred to and not just angels but they are ones that are following in line with God. When the term children of men or sons or daughters of men are used it is in regards to those humans that are not living in accordance with God and it is this same group that is also called the children of satan. Those angels that have fallen are not and will not be called "sons of God".

Hello again brother.

I apologise, but I am not comprehending what you are pointing out.
Please allow me to try and work it out...


OK, I comprehend that, however that line of thinking just confuses the specific scripture.
Here's why...

Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

OK this verse is specific...when MEN began to multiply that daughters were born of them. No mention of "sons of God" at all here. However the very next verse mentions a separate faction, not MEN, who are called "sons of God"
These two verses put into context tell us that human men had human daughters who were so beautiful that these "sons of God" just had to have them...

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Now if I use your thinking this verse Gen 6:2 would read...
"That the men saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and took them wives of all which they chose."
Again, redundant and confusing.


This following verse tells us what that sinful union produced.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown. (giants were born through this evil union - Goliath)

When I try to comprehend these three verses using your thinking, the scriptures become confused and redundant. I can see no other scriptures which are so.


"When the term children of men or sons or daughters of men are used it is in regards to those humans that are not living in accordance with God and it is this same group that is also called the children of satan. Those angels that have fallen are not and will not be called "sons of God"

The term "sons of God" is used in the context of being PRIOR to the evil act.
Scriptures tell us these angels, or sons of God were punished and imprisoned in the bottomless pit because of this disobedience.

My friend, again, please do not mistake my search for arrogance or aggression. I am honestly attempting to work out the scriptural facts and nothing more.
In this particular instance, these scriptures make the best cohesive sense to me, only when we separate these "sons of man" with the "men" who gave birth to beautiful daughters.
Please, if you could quote these verses and put them in a sensible literal context, I could agree with you on, I would be most happy to do so. Honestly.

Take care friend.

John

Hello Brother John and All,

First, I don't think this study is contentious at all, rather the attempted study of the biggest questions of Bible Prophecy. We can all view this as a Brotherly discussion where we are exploring some of the most difficult portions of the Bible.

I'd like to first go back and mention a few things that appear to be the keys of this discussion and possible conclusions. Questions arising from Genesis 6 are definitely one of the keys to discussing men, angels, good, and evil. This study leads all over the Bible, and Bible Scholars have presented multiple views about who the "Sons of God" are in Genesis 6. Books have been written about this subject that obviously involve highly detailed ancient language studies. This specific discussion about the Anti-Christ does go back to Genesis 6 for some of the possible conclusions.

Brothers, I don't think there's a concrete answer about who the "Sons of God" are in Genesis 6. Some scholars think they are the Godly descendants of Seth. Now let's add the "daughters of men". This is another big question because were talking about the results of the joining of the "Sons of God" to the "daughters of men" - their children. Why does the Bible refer to them as the "daughters of men" as opposed to the "Daughters of God"? Some scholars believe they are the wicked posterity of Cain. Obviously, everything in this paragraph is subject to dispute among Bible scholars, and I don't think there's a concrete answer.

Angels are referred to as the "Sons of God" in some portions of Scripture (Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Daniel 3:25, and others. However, this is not the most common way that angels are referred to in the Bible. Brother John, this would be one of the foundational parts of the potential conclusions you discussed. I realize you simply presented this as a possible, and my opinion on this matter would be, "I don't know." Again, this is a foundational question that can impact many extremely difficult studies that there probably isn't any concrete answer for. The exploration for an answer quickly involves Numbers 13:32-33, Jude, portions from Peter, 1 Samuel 27:8, Psalms 5:10, Psalms 25:6, and many others.

Brothers, the search for an answer involves God's Judgments, God's Covenants, God's Punishments, and genealogies listed in God's Word. The search can also involve a large amount of material that's not of the Bible. I think this is a fascinating discussion that I want to participate in. I don't have much meaningful input right now, but I have started the study and hope to have a contribution soon. I think there are many benefits of doing a study like this even if there isn't a concrete conclusion. 

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 22:7 ASV  7  And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.

Thanks you for that brother! Whew!

I can agree with your answer, but I would also like to point out that whoever these "sons of God" are, the offspring were "giants" and "men of renown" If these "sons of God" did in fact refer to descendants of Seth, then we should be able to look at these descendants, and Seth and his contemporaries and see whether the scriptures describe any of their offspring as "giants" or "men of renown" Otherwise, we run the danger of inserting non scriptural interpretations into the debate.


I would feel very good about such an identification, but again, I would like to see scriptural corroboration for it first.

Great to be discussing here again my friends!!

John

Brothers,

It's 110 degrees here without applying humidity and other factors. I got out some yesterday to see my 88 year old mother, and I'm feeling dehydrated and weak. I'm taking it easy today and working on trying to hydrate right now.

Brother John and all, I know that I'm barely going to get started today on this study. I have a lot of notes that I want to followup, but I just don't have the energy today. "Giant" is another interesting question mark that leads to various conclusions when you go to the ancient languages. I haven't mentioned anything yet related to materials other than the Bible, and I'll probably confine my study solely to the Bible. I won't be relying on any non-Scriptural interpretations of anything, but there are various interpretations of many Scriptures that are quite logical because of various translations from the original languages (i.e. Hebrew and Greek). "Giant" is a perfect example and is misused or misunderstood in various Scriptures. In fact, it's a mistranslation in some Scriptures. The root word many times refers to physical prowess, mighty warriors, men of renown, or warriors of fame instead of size in stature. This would be in the limited view of translation without mentioning tyrant, hero, or bully. This is just one more question mark of many from strictly a Biblical view. I don't plan to look at anything except logical Biblical views from Bible interpretation. Various interpretations are quite logical because of various translations from the Hebrew and Greek, and I'm not talking about our English Bibles. Strongs would represent a limited word study that many times needs to be expanded because of the richness of the ancient languages. However, even Strongs offers variations, as limited as it is. Details like this can make significant differences, and we find out pretty quickly about lots of room for mistranslation. This is why serious Bible Students still have to refer back to the Hebrew and Greek frequently. One can also use parallel views of various English Translations and examine the reasons for the differences. Let's just say that there are very logical reasons for various translations of the Hebrew root "gibborim" to "Giant", "Nephilim", "Mighty Man", etc. There is no single concrete answer here either. These are some of the same questions that Bible Translators labor greatly on.

Brothers, I've just barely gotten started, and I started with questions. The possible answers are fascinating. I already know that a list of questions regarding evil must be a part of what's explored. I'll say now that I don't think there are concrete answers for many questions - ONLY GOD KNOWS.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ephesians 6:11-20 ASV   11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.  12  For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  13  Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.  14  Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  15  and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  16  withal taking up the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the evil one.  17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:  18  with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,  19  and on my behalf, that utterance may be given unto me in opening my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,  20  for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Thank you, Brother Tom. You stated much of what I was trying to say and explained it so much better.

Looking at things in the Hebrew or Greek languages can explain a lot yet it can also cause a great deal more confusion. An example here is the Hebrew word for men, 'âdâm, can also be translated to English as "hypocrites." Therefore giving us "daughters of hypocrites." From this we can see one of the reasons why some people take this phrase to mean daughters of the lineage of Cain.

As Brother Tom briefly said of the word giant, the Hebrew word that is mostly translated as giants, nephı̂yl  nephil which is where we get the word Nephilim from, is more properly translated to mean bully or tyrant. This amplifies the use of the Hebrew word that was translated to read "mighty men," gibbôr  gibbôr, which also can be translated as not only warrior but also as tyrant.

Brothers,

Let me add a little spice to the food - just a little. Let's concentrate on Genesis 6:4 and Numbers 13:33. Look at Canaan and think about before the flood and after the flood. What did the spies of Israel learn about Canaan in Numbers 13:33, and what did they associate with what they learned? Canaan is also a significant geographical location. Just one of many interesting questions would be: was the lineage of the "Giants" mentioned in Genesis 6:4 destroyed in the flood? This is just one question regarding God's Judgments, Covenants, and Punishments.

Needless to say, the "Beast" and association of the "Beast" with the antichrist is even more difficult material with many variables. If it wasn't difficult, we would already know the identity of the antichrist. We can scratch the surface of the material with Daniel and Revelation.

Brothers, I'm not prepared to present details right now, but there's a big reason why I mentioned God's Judgments, God's Punishments, God's Covenants (conditional and unconditional), and genealogies. Frankly, right now, I'm trying to decide the best way to start. There probably isn't any way close to being easy. Many major considerations are woven together throughout the Holy Bible that can't be separated.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Isaiah 9:6 ASV  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Hello my friends.
I agree with both Roger and Tom that we must be careful in our renditions of what each specific "title" or "name" may be translated into from the origional language.
Having said that, are we to simply give up and not try and understand what these specific names, words mean?

We need to take the scriptures in context in order to make the proper identification, and we also need to search for corroborating scriptures, and we can also look to other sources.
For example...

Anak
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other uses, see Anak (disambiguation).

According to the Book of Numbers, during the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites, Anak (spelt as both ענק and as הענק depending upon the reference) was a well known figure, and a forefather of the Anakites (aka. Anakim) who have been considered strong and tall descendants of the Nephilim (Numbers 13:33). The use of the word "nephilim" in this verse is possibly used to describe the height of the inhabitants as gigantic. The text states that Anak was a Rephaite (Deuteronomy 2:11) and a son of Arba (Joshua 15:13). Etymologically, Anak means [long] neck.

The sons of Anak are first mentioned in Numbers 13. The Israelite leader Moses sends twelve spies representing the twelve tribes of Israel to scout out the land of Canaan, and give a full report to the congregation. The spies enter from the Negev desert and journey northward through the Judaean hills until they arrive at the brook of Eshcol near Hebron, where reside Sheshai, Ahiman, and Talmai, the sons of Anak. After the scouts have explored the entire land, they bring back samples of the fruit of the land; most notably a gigantic cluster of grapes which requires two men to carry it on a pole between them. The scouts then report to Moses and the congregation, that "the land indeed is a land flowing with milk and honey," but ten of the twelve spies discourage the Israelites from even attempting to possess the land, for they reported that the men were taller and stronger than the Israelites, and moreover the sons of Anak dwell in the land, and that they felt like grasshoppers in their presence.

The Anakites are later mentioned briefly in the books of Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Judges. In Joshua, Caleb, one of the twelve spies sent by Moses into Canaan, later drove out the descendants of Anak — his three sons — from Hebron, also called Kirjath Arba.

Anak could be related to the Sumerian god Enki.[citation needed] Robert Graves, considering the relationship between the Anakites and Philistia (Joshua 11:21, Jeremiah 47:5), identifies the Anakim with Anax, the giant ruler of the Anactorians in Greek mythology.

References
^ Black, Matthew W. (2001). Peake's commentary on the Bible. Routledge. ISBN 0-4152-6355-7. 
^ "These Anakim seem to have come from Greece, as members of the Sea-peoples' confederation which caused the Egyptians so much trouble in the fourteenth century B.C." Robert Graves. The Greek Myths, 88.3. New York: 1955.
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anak"


I have given specific verse by verse explanations of what I believe the scriptures are telling us. Perhaps it would be helpful if others would do the same useing their proof and corroboration.

Take care brothers.
I am really looking forward to unlocking this mystery!

John

"sons of God" appears in five verses from two books in the Old Testament. Two verses are found in Genesis 6. The other three are in the book of Job. From the book of Job, the context clearly indicates that "sons of God" are angelic beings.
 I understand that in the New Testament "sons of God" always refer to redeemed human beings.

Now, the argument I’m hearing from some sources is that “we know from the New testament that angels are asexual, and therefore these “sons of God” could not have been angels” however, when we take a close look at this, we see all is not what is may appear to be.


(Matthew 22:23-30) On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Him and questioned Him, saying, "Teacher, Moses said, 'IF A MAN DIES, HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP AN OFFSPRING TO HIS BROTHER.' "Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. "And last of all, the woman died. "In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her." But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God. "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

We can extrapolate from those scriptures that “in the resurrection” men will no longer have “relations” with women. However it doesn’t say that. It says they shall not “marry” women, nor be given in “marriage” I agree, this most likely implies there will be no physical relations, however it in no way is emphatic that there “can” be no physical relations. I can’t extrapolate from these scriptures that evil angelic beings back in the time of Noah, and prior, did not commit evil unholy physical sins with the daughters of men.
I can deduce that “in the resurrection” both men and angels of Heaven are no to be “married” It doesn’t make any declarations about what happened prior to the “resurrection”

I’ll go even further…these scriptures are specifically identifying the angles, as angles of “Heaven” In Jude 3 . 6 , we see another group of angles, who abandoned their positions in Heaven, therefore by definition, they are no longer angels of Heaven, but were cursed to become “fallen stars” “demons” “evil spirits”

Jude 3 . 6  “And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home --these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.”

I could make the argument, that by omission, the scriptures in question actually could implicate “fallen angles” who did not keep their positions of authority, as being guilty of physical sin with daughters of men.

In the resurrection there will be no murder, no lies, no tears, no death, etc.
That does not imply these things never happened.

Take care my friends.
John

 ???huh ??? THIS is interesting....

I just googled, yahoo'd, and bing'd a bunch of quran and 666's.  SCARY stuff!

Yes this is extremely interesting. Especially when the Koran says Mohammad believed the angel in the cave, who appeared to him was satan, and upon seeing this evil angel Mohammad ran away, only to return the next night where he was fooled into believing this evil angel was an angel of light and thereafter dictated the entire Koran to him.

Also, when we read scriptures regarding the execution method used during the wrath of God, beheading is listed, which we all know the Islamists love to employ.

yes, I believe this "false prophet" will be the Islamic "Mahdi" which is their saviour who can only come when the Muslims make war with the non Muslim world. This is the reason we have such bloodthirsty war being waged by these fundamentalist Islamists today.
Take a look at virtually every major battle going on in the world today, and you will find the Islamists fingerprint.

Take care sister.

John

Brothers John and All,

I never get tired of studying the Holy Bible. I am working on some material to contribute to this discussion. I might also add there is already considerable material on the forum.

Please take the following in the way that I intend it:  lovingly as Brothers and Sisters in Christ. My specific study as an individual will be confined solely to the Holy Bible. So, I won't be looking at mythology, Greek or otherwise. Everyone else is obviously most welcome to include or exclude whatever they wish. Please don't take this in any critical way because that is not what I intended. I'm hoping that I can simply be a contributor to the discussion, and I do have some rough notes I'm working on now. I'm also looking for work that I've already done that relates to this discussion. I've gone through several different operating systems and two computers in the last year, so I'm not close to being organized with work I've already done. However, it might be fun and interesting to do it again with new perspectives. Right now, I'm thinking that I want to contribute some brief material on Revelation 13 and 17.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:16 ASV  For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I was reading the update from Creation Research on their Creation News articles and a thought came to mind in regards to "after their kind" and then I came across the following verse while studying on the sins of the flesh.

1Co 15:39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Yes I agree that if we're going to get to the truth we must stick strictly with scriptures Tom.
Although I do find it very interesting when I see mythological names that have common biblical counterparts...still, I do take the point.

Looking forward to your posts Tom, and others.

John

Brother John and All,

I've been somewhat slow in getting started, and the only excuse I have is that I haven't been feeling very strong. It's now 112 degrees here, and who knows what the heat index would be. We did have to get out a couple of times, and both my wife and I feel drained.

Please don't wait on me for the discussion, even though I do have a contribution and more in the works. As far as I'm concerned, this is just a pleasant discussion and exploration, rather than a debate. I'll primarily use the KJV because I think that most of you are using the KJV, but I will have some material from other translations - including my own. My health isn't good enough to get in a hurry, so I plan to go slowly and enjoy the study from everyone's perspective. It should be a given that parts of the discussion will have to be opinion only, but hopefully backed by various levels and layers of Scripture. That's my plan for me, but everyone is most welcome to take whatever approach you wish.

I'd like to start my part with what I think are some key Scriptures. I have many more in my notes, but this is where I started in my contribution to the discussion.

Scripture Portion #1

Daniel 7:3-7 KJV  And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.  4  The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.  5  And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.  6  After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.  7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Scripture Portion #2

Daniel 7:24 KJV  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

Scripture Portion #3

Revelation 13:1-10 KJV  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.  2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.  3  And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.  4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?  5  And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  6  And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.  7  And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.  8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.  9  If any man have an ear, let him hear.  10  He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I'd first like to mention some very basic symbolism and information that I think is heavily supported in the Bible. I'll mention them in very general terms. Let's see if we all on the same sheet of music or whether we need to discuss the basics. The symbolism can be used to describe empires or individuals if one goes through the Bible in a study. One should also not look at the "beast" as singular.

A.  In my opinion, Daniel 7 definitely refers to the coming of the "Revived Roman Empire. The same would be true for various portions of Revelation and other parts of the Bible.

B.  Fragments of the ancient Roman Empire still exists today as separate kingdoms, but the Imperial form of government of the Revived Roman Empire isn't here yet (future). The "One head wounded to death" in my opinion is past tense - already happened - the the Imperial form of government of the Ancient Roman Empire.

C.  The "Revived Roman Empire" will have a form of 10 kingdoms, representative of Gentile Nations. It's my opinion that a "New Head" will arise to lead the "Revived Roman Empire", and he will be "the beast". This will not be the resurrection of the old emperor, rather a "Revived Roman Empire" with a new emperor. "The deadly wound that is healed" refers to the new leader of "world-domination class".

D.  The "Leopard" is representative of Greece, and it is "swift to conquer".

E.  The "Bear" is a type of Medo-Persia and "Powerful".

F.  The "Lion" is representative of Babylon and "greed".

G.  The new Ruling World Empire will combine all the evil features of preceding world empires and surpass them in power and evil because of the supernatural powers of Satan.

This is really a lot to chew on for a start. Let's see how much we agree on and how much we disagree on. I used some very broad language intentionally. I had thought about mentioning the second "beast" in Revelation 13:11-18, but that might be a little bit too much as a start. For now, just remember that the second "beast" is the "False Prophet" and could even be a Jew. Regardless, we would be talking about supernatural powers of Satan.

I apologize if I caused a delay. I'm slow these days because of health, and it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if everyone went ahead without waiting for me. I tried to avoid terms that would cause confusion in semantics, but I don't know how well I did that. This is hard to do when trying to relate numerous Bible Sources that speak of the same things.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 3:21-28 ASV  But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;  22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;  23  for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;  24  being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:  25  whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;  26  for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.  27  Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.  28  We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Hello Tom.
Please don't worry about this discussion. Take care of yourself brother. I continue to pray for you each night my friend.

I am in agreeance with pretty much your entire post with one small exception.
I beleiev the reference to "The deadly wound that is healed" is actually in relation to a false death and resurrection of the antichrist, as he attempts to fool Jews from scriptures within the Old Testament which prophecy about the details of the "coming" Messiah.

Take care my brother.

John

Hello Brother John,

I am studying, making notes, and preparing further contributions to this discussion.

I want to mention something first about Revelation 13:3 that will be common with many other portions of Scripture. There are numerous quite logical views, and not one of them is concrete. We are talking about Inspiration of God through the eyes of numerous Bible Writers, and we wouldn't just be looking at Daniel and Revelation. Let's go back now to Revelation 13:3, and I'll quickly tell you, "I don't know."

I want to give you a small sample that contains several views, and it must from ancient language alone. This is without mentioning the "Through the eyes of multiple Bible Writers and other variables. The following is from the very old and good Pulpit Commentary:


It's also true in the study that one must many times make a distinction between the empire and the beast, all the while knowing that Satan is the power behind the empire. One needs to view many portions of Scripture from two perspectives:  1) The empire and the leader joined;  2) The empire and the leader separated. Nothing can be simplified with these very complex portions of Scripture and how they are woven together by Multiple Prophets. The next two major concerns involves separating what only pertains to Israel from what only pertains to the Church Which Is The Body of Christ.

Brother, I would repeat again that I don't think there are any concrete answers for many questions, but I know there is a big benefit in studying the material. One can't do a study of this type without receiving a blessing on many other issues - The Promises of God and His Covenants being at the top of the list. I am definitely receiving a blessing from doing this study, and I'm glad that we're doing it. Maybe it will make us more anxious for His Glorious Appearance, and this is a good thing.

Love In Christ,
Tom