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Title: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 03, 2009, 08:53:45 AM Quote Why does God in parts of the Bible condone rape? Why does he tell us to kill our own family members when they don't belive in God? Why did he create evil? My reply was: Because God can be quit vindictive when he chooses to, which he often did in the OT. Quote GOD DOESN"T CONDONE RAPE!!! :mad God didn't create evil. Evil is not doing what God has commanded. The thing about killing family was under the old way. I'll need to come back with a clearer answer. Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: nChrist on June 03, 2009, 09:39:15 AM Hello Brother David,
I haven't slept yet and am very tired. It would help if you got the portion of Scripture the other person is talking about. God's Laws were just and righteous, and some of the penalties for disobedience of certain laws was physical death. God has never been vindictive, but HE has had justifiable and righteous wrath. CHRIST'S Second Coming will be in GREAT, HOLY, RIGHTEOUS WRATH. God doesn't condone evil of any kind, even though evil men may think they're getting away with something. Please get me a few specifics, and I'll try to help you after I've gotten some rest. Love In Christ, Tom 1 Corinthians 6:11 ASV 11 And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 03, 2009, 10:57:49 AM Quote from: person Quote GOD DOESN"T CONDONE RAPE!!! I'm afraid he does, Numbers 31:7-18. They are not allowed to marry the women either, as the one man who does causes the Israelites to be afflicted with a plague until they basically remove his genitalia to do so. They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves. Quote Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version) 28If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days Basically, the woman raped is forced to marry her rapist. What mercy. Quote Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (King James Version) 10When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; 13And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. 14And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. I jut love how they refer to rape, you have humbled her. That makes it sound like a good thing, as humility is good, right? and here is the best of the best: Quote Zechariah 14:1-2 (English Standard Version) Zechariah 14 The Coming Day of the LORD 1Behold,(A) a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2For(B) I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and(C) the city shall be taken(D) and the houses plundered(E) and the women raped.(F) Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. God condones rape. Quote God didn't create evil. Yes he did, and he admits to it. Quote Isaiah 45:7 (English Standard Version) 7I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and(A) create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things. and Quote Amos 3:6 (English Standard Version) 6(A) Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? (B) Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it? God creates evil. Quote The thing about killing family was under the old way. I'll need to come back with a clearer answer. There is no such thing as an old way. God does not change, and all of his laws have to be kept, even the old testament ones. Jesus said in Matthew that not a single law shall pass until the end of days. Quote Luke 16:17 (English Standard Version) 17But(A) it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway. Matthew 5:18-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Sorry, but if you don't follow all the OT laws, you're being a hipocrit and choosing which morals to follow, rather than the whole book. *shrug* Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: Soldier4Christ on June 03, 2009, 02:02:52 PM Hello David,
It looks like you have run into a person that has been well educated in atheistic teachings by someone that has gone to a great deal of time and effort to tear down the Bible without really trying to study the truth. These types are very usually quite difficult to even talk to since they are certain they are correct and you and the Bible are wrong. I'll do my best with God's help to try to help you. Quote I'm afraid he does, Numbers 31:7-18. They are not allowed to marry the women either, as the one man who does causes the Israelites to be afflicted with a plague until they basically remove his genitalia to do so. They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves. First of all the man that died because of the plague laid with a woman that had sex with other men prior to him not to one that was a virgin. We know this because Num 25:6 refers to her as a woman not a virgin. Secondly they are making assumptions that they were not allowed to marry those that are taken. The Israelites had laws that did not allow them to marry a female under a certain age. Those that were "taken" and kept would have been under that age of marriage in order to ascertain that they were virgins. They would have been taken and raised according to the laws that Moses had laid out. There are no scriptures asserting where "They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves." This is simply nothing more than someone twisting words to mean what they want them to mean. Quote Basically, the woman raped is forced to marry her rapist. What mercy. The scripture being spoken of here is Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Again scripture is being twisted to mean something other than what is actually said. The words in the KJV "and lay hold on her" is the original Hebrew word of tâphaś that is erroneously translated into rape in some Bible versions. The word actually means to manipulate as in a more modern word of seduce. This statement is not talking of a forced relationship but one where the female is convinced to participate willingly. Quote I jut love how they refer to rape, you have humbled her. That makes it sound like a good thing, as humility is good, right? This comes from a lack of understanding scriptures and the proper usage of words. The meaning of words can be multiple meanings and even those meanings change over time. The original Hebrew word here is ‛ânâh. This word also means to defile. A woman that has been "humbled" in the old extent of this word means that they are no longer a virgin, they have basically been "defiled". The word defiled here does not mean that they are trash to be looked down on but rather that they simply are not a virgin any longer. Quote and here is the best of the best: Zechariah 14:1-2 God is telling in this portion of scripture what is going to happen. This is not the same as condoning that action. Quote There is no such thing as an old way. God does not change, and all of his laws have to be kept, even the old testament ones. Jesus said in Matthew that not a single law shall pass until the end of days. It is totally correct that God Himself does not change. This does not mean that His rules for us has not changed. As we are told in the New Testament in Joh 8:7 "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." We are also told in the NT that "All have sinned" Therefore none are able to cast that first stone. Quote Sorry, but if you don't follow all the OT laws, you're being a hipocrit and choosing which morals to follow, rather than the whole book. There is a big difference between "The Laws" and precepts given by Moses. There is also a big difference between being "under the law" and being "under grace". It would take a long time to discuss this and to explain these differences however a good place to start is in the book of Galations and Hebrews. Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 03, 2009, 02:44:34 PM Thank you Brother.
Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 07, 2009, 07:57:54 AM someone replied with this,
Quote from: wavy Quote from: david_james First of all the man that died because of the plague laid with a woman that had sex with other men prior to him not to one that was a virgin. We know this because Num 25:6 refers to her as a woman not a virgin. So Eve wasn't a virgin? (Genesis ii.22-23)? Also, the word 'woman' does not appear in the Hebrew text. 'Midianite' is feminine. Quote The Israelites had laws that did not allow them to marry a female under a certain age. Oh? Where? Quote They would have been taken and raised according to the laws that Moses had laid out. You mean Deuteronomy xxi.10-14, where they take them against their will, shave their head and trim their nails? Quote There are no scriptures asserting where "They are told to keep the girls as basically sex slaves." Deuteronomy xxi.10-14 disagrees. They can abduct them, keep them, have sex with them, even marry them! But if they're 'not pleased' with them, they can let them go. Sounds like a sex slave to me. Quote The scripture being spoken of here is Deuteronomy 22:28-29. Again scripture is being twisted to mean something other than what is actually said. The words in the KJV "and lay hold on her" is the original Hebrew word of tâphaś that is erroneously translated into rape in some Bible versions. The word actually means to manipulate as in a more modern word of seduce. This statement is not talking of a forced relationship but one where the female is convinced to participate willingly. What reputable Hebrew source do you have to support your assertion? She is seized, not 'seduced', and does not participate willingly. The rape is redressed by punishing the man in two ways: First, since the father's daughter is now violated, he will not be able to procure a bride price for her (i.e., sell her off), so the rapist has to pay her father that bride price. Secondly, the rapist has to expend further resources by providing for his victim for life, since she won't be able to get a husband otherwise to take care of her. That is why he can never divorce her. The victim is not participating 'willingly'. She receives no punishment. I don't have the time, but if I scanned the rest of your post, I wonder how many more exegetical and linguistic errors or unsupported assertions I could find...Maybe I'll come back later. Thanks, Eric Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: Soldier4Christ on June 07, 2009, 10:52:34 AM I started to answer this post portion by portion until it dawned on me what is going on here. This person uses the terms "exegetical and linguistic errors" in the last sentence they posted. I would venture that this person(s) has had a lot of experience arguing against Christians on a web site such Theology.com. If this is the case they will continue to argue against the Word no matter what is said nor how it is said to them. Even when given complete facts such as the Hebrew word 'ishshâh nâshı̂ym is used in the original Hebrew text in regards to the Midianitish woman in Num 25:15. Nor the fact that this word means a wide variety of things such as woman, wife, or adulteress depending on the context in which it is used. This still will not matter to them and they will find some way around it using the terms "exegetical and linguistic errors" or similar words in an attempt to try to make themselves look highly educated and beyond dispute. This person(s) will get into arguing semantics and will do what they can to get Hebrew words to mean something other than what they do.
Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 07, 2009, 11:54:45 AM I hate to not answer because it will seem I can't answer and if I can't answer, he will think he is wise and others will too.
Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: Soldier4Christ on June 07, 2009, 01:17:29 PM He will think that he is wise whether you answer or not. Others will see it based on the way they already think.
Quote the word 'woman' does not appear in the Hebrew text. Wrong! Num 25:15 'ishshâh nâshı̂ym Hebrew word meaning woman, wife, adulteress depending on the context used and it is there in the Hebrew text. JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY BIBLE, BaMidbar, Chapter 25, 15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head of the people of a fathers' house in Midian. The Masoretic text: http://kodesh.snunit.k12.il/bible/hbmdb025.html#15 It is easy to see that the rest of this response is twisted in this same manner so I wouldn't waste my time in any further response than that. Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: nChrist on June 07, 2009, 02:40:44 PM Hello Brother David,
I agree completely with what Pastor Roger has told you. You're wasting your time with fools who want to twist the Holy Bible for their little games. They are what we call TROLLS. They waste the time of everyone in useless arguments that lead nowhere. Their objective is trouble and mockery of the things of the LORD. We eventually ban them here because they prevent other people from genuinely seeking CHRIST. They serve as little more than noise-makers for the devil, and they aren't worth your time. They are the fools, not you. They do manage to ruin many Christian forums by arguing about NONSENSE while Eternity is at stake. They want the useless NOISE to take the place of the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. The best thing to do is dismiss them as FOOLS and tell them you have better and more constructive things to do with your time. Love In Christ, Tom John 14:17 ASV 17 even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: David_james on June 07, 2009, 02:53:17 PM thank you again brothers
Title: Re: need help answering a question Post by: nChrist on June 07, 2009, 03:35:46 PM Hello Brother David,
You're most welcome. Brother, I'm always glad to help in any way that I can, and you know the same is true for all of us. I visited several Christian forums recently and found that many of them make it really hard for Christians to participate. On many of them, Christians are really little more than targets for ridicule. This is extremely sad because many are still seeking CHRIST around the world. People are still being Saved, and the time is growing short. One gets the hint pretty quickly on forums where they don't want to talk about Jesus Christ. They want to talk about everything except Jesus Christ. Why? - Jesus Christ is the only WAY to be SAVED. Love in Christ, Tom 2 Timothy 1:7-8 ASV 7 For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline. 8 Be not ashamed therefore of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but suffer hardship with the gospel according to the power of God; |