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I realize there is a verse in the new testament that says we should obey our spiritual leaders...Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them: for they watch in behalf of your souls, as they that shall give account; that they may do this with joy, and not with grief: for this were unprofitable for you.
 what does that mean to you?  Do you think that that means that our pastors have the right to tell us who to marry or not to?  Where to work?  I've been having a lot of problems (in my head) with this... partly because the wife of the husband wife pastor team especially, likes to preach on this and, in my opinion, butt into every one's lives whether they want advice or not.   Do they have the authority to tell you who you can or cannot talk to?  Sorry, I hope someone has some wisdom to share with me here  :(

Hello BlessedX2,

Heb 13:17 is frequently taken out of context by those that wish to have complete authority over others in all things and situations. If we look back some verses (verse 7 ) we can see that this is speaking of matters of doctrine and faith.  Like it is for us in all things if the guidance of these leaders is not in accordance with scripture and is in fact in things that are contrary to scripture then we need to move away from them. If this person wants to simply be a busy body or dictator then they are not leading according to scripture and you definitely should not be following them but rather following Christ. After all it is Jesus Christ that we all should be following first and foremost.

actually I dont' feel like it's that clear cut... if for example someone in our church would like to marry a nice christian girl and the leaders dont' want them to...

they have no authority over such matters.

Being the pastor of the church they could indeed refuse to conduct the marriage. Even if they did not have a good Godly reason for doing so they could still refuse.

1Pe 5:1  The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2  Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3  Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pe 5:4  And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 5:5  Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

First of all I would not be in a church where the pastor's wife inserts herself into the role of an elder or as a pastor. Nor would I be in a church where the rule is held in a communistic, iron fisted manner. It is all too often that people think themselves more than they are in positions of authority. Jesus Christ is the primary authority over a congregation not a pastor or a pastor's wife.

The only recourse that a person has in such a situation is to also do as scripture states. This would be to take the situation up with the pastor and if that does not resolve it then to take it up with at least two witnesses (preferably elders of the church) along with the pastor. Then if still not resolved the matter should be taken up before the church.

The only other recourse is to find a church that is more inline with scriptural teachings.

You are correct David!! :D :D


I have only refused once, and that is because of their pagan ways. Neither wanted to hear the Word, at their service. They wanted me to marry them with "mother earths" spiritual blessings.

That is totally understandable.

Brothers and Sisters,

The most important points have already been mentioned:

CHRIST being the head over the CHURCH eliminates all kinds of problems.

GOD'S WORD is the Authority, and CHRIST is also called "THE WORD".

Godly pastors won't do things that are against GOD'S WORD.

Christians have CHRIST as the head over them 24/7, so this doesn't apply to just being present in a local assembly of believers. The pastor is just a man, and he won't be with members of the congregation except a few hours a week, but GOD will be with them ALWAYS AND FOREVER.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Revelation 7:1-4 ASV  1  After his I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that no wind should blow on the earth, or on the sea, or upon any tree.  2  And I saw another angel ascend from the sunrising, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a great voice to the four angels to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,  3  saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.  4  And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

No one (not ever you) has the right to tell you who to marry, only God does.  As far as the other areas of your life are concerned you certainly may seek advise from your pastor (him, not her) and do what you will with his advise.  But if they are "butting in" without an invitation then I'd say find another church.

Remember when a Pastor or any leader tries to have control over you is not of "GOD" and have fallen out of His purpose.  No one has such authority over you to decide what you can or not do.

That is a spirit of control "The Spirit of Jezebel" look it up and you will see.

Blessings!

We also don't need to get confused when a leader tries to tell us to do something that is illegal, immoral, and against GOD. As a perfect example, leaders during the Tribulation Period will tell the people to take the mark of the beast and worship him. The answer must be NO! It's surprising how many things like this apply today even in churches. The examples are almost endless as the world turns to evil more each day.

Ephesians 6:11-20 ASV   11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.  12  For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.  13  Wherefore take up the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and, having done all, to stand.  14  Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  15  and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  16  withal taking up the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the evil one.  17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:  18  with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints,  19  and on my behalf, that utterance may be given unto me in opening my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel,  20  for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

First of all, what is a pastor? Where did the NT ever establish that pastors are the authorities? They're mentioned only once through the entire text, and yet many professing believers seem to see that title written on every other page of the NT.

Secondly, where did the word of God ever hand spiritual authority over to those guys who head up man-made, religious organizations most call their church?

I've never found a verse where the Bible states that a hireling automatically qualifies as a leader of biblical stature and caliber.

SwJr

I am not nor never will be a "hireling" of any local assembly. That would mean that I have to do just exactly what those people say. That does not fit my calling. Yes, calling. I am called by God. I am a servant of God not a servant of man.

There are many words used today in reference to God and His word that are not specifically in the Bible. It does not mean that the idea, the meaning behind that word does not exist. The word pastor means one who tends sheep. Like Jesus told Peter, "Feed my sheep." Evangelist, preacher, teacher, minister ... irregardless of the word that you wish to use or not use to describe this person their place is to feed the sheep of Jesus Christ. They are indeed to feed, to lead and guide them to their Master, Jesus Christ.

Irregardless of what you may like to think there are local assemblies in scripture and there are directions as to how they are to be setup. These local assemblies are a part of the Church, which is the body of Christ and it is Jesus Christ that is the head of that church not any many man.

If only so-called Christians would spend as much time preaching the Gospel instead of doing what they can to tare down the work of God through local assemblies by continually denigrating those assemblies. The spreading of their negative teachings do nothing for God nor for the lost but more harm.

Let's cut to the chase. Are you the only one who measures up in your way of thinking?

Amen to that BEP.

And that would go to anyone.  If you are the only one who thinks the way you do...I would seriously consider that you dig deep within your Bible and consider that you are probably wrong.  I know the Bible says that the way is narrow and few will enter...however there were still 12 disciples that all thought the same way, not one.

I am reminded in this situation of two children that were raised by the same parents. Let's just say that the parents were definitely lacking in proper parental skills. Upon growing up to the physical age of an adult the one child dwelled on what happened to them refusing to let go of it. They became a bitter person with their thoughts channeled constantly on the bad things. The other child took what happened to them as a learning lesson. A lesson that taught them not to be like that but rather to be a loving person. This child was able to let go of those bad things and to concentrate on that which is good.

To some extent or another we all become leaders at some point in our lives. We have also been followers at different points in our lives. We can choose to dwell on the bad examples we have seen or we can go to that which is good. When it comes to people we will never find the perfect example for us and, yes, that includes pastors. They are human and as such capable of making mistakes, capable of sinning.

We are given a perfect example for us to follow though ... Jesus Christ the only one that has ever been without sin. We can turn to Him and follow Him in all confidence that we are following that which is the right way.

It is about choices. We can allow the evil in our lives to control us or we can turn to that which is good.

Amen Brothers,

The principles of Biblical leadership work very well in many areas of our lives. The example I think of first is our own home, marriage, and raising our children. The first key is yielding to Christ. Let Him be the head of the home. If the Biblical instructions are followed, there will be real love in the home between the husband and wife, and the children will be brought up in the love and nurture of the Lord.

It's amazing how well the instructions of the Bible work. They're timeless and lead to much more joy in this short life. We all have Biblical roles, and Christ is the head of them all. Our parts aren't easy, but God will help us if we ask Him to.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Amen.  I know I remember my household before my wife and I submitted our marriage to Christ...and I know what it is like now...and WOW what a difference.

For me, we have to obey the God's mandated leader. Because if we don't, it seems that we are disobeying God.
But there are still measures of when to obey the leader. Am i right?

Hello and welcome to the forums.

The measures are there and they are great not just minor. We are to follow God and God alone. We can follow God alongside that person but it is God that we must follow and not man.

The terms "pastor", "elder", "shepherd", "bishop" all relate back to the same person who is one of the eldership.  An elder my become a preacher and a preacher may become an elder.

They should not be confused with an evangelist. Sometimes preacher/Evangelists are called "pastors" but unless they fulfill the qualifications of the elder as given by Paul to Timothy referring to them as a pastor is unscriptural. Sometimes an elder is paid as a full-time elder, but in most cases the elders are unpaid servant leaders of the congregation.  The have no authority to change bible doctrine, but they have the authority to decide in cases of "opinion."  This is what is meant in Heb 13:17.

The duties of the elder (Acts 20:28-35) differ from the duties of the preacher (1 Tim 4:13).  They should not become confused in the Christian's mind.  This is a great problem in South America (as it is here) where the preacher wants to be the "decider" or the one in charge.  There is an effort on going to correct this and appoint elders (Titus 1:5) in every city (congregation of the Lord's people).

Hello Salesman42,

Welcome to the Christians Unite forums. I look forward to more of your posts.

I somewhat agree with your statement. What is misunderstood in most cases though is the word 'elder'. The word does mean an individual that is older. Unfortunately though it is associated with an individual that is physically older. In the context that scripture uses this word is an with those that are more mature in God's word. This is the same in many other things in scripture where people relate to the physical world instead of that which is spiritual.

Reply to
"I somewhat agree with your statement. What is misunderstood in most cases though is the word 'elder'. The word does mean an individual that is older. Unfortunately though it is associated with an individual that is physically older. In the context that scripture uses this word is an with those that are more mature in God's word. This is the same in many other things in scripture where people relate to the physical world instead of that which is spiritual."

I agree that the word "elder" can also refer to an older person in a physical or spiritual sense according to the context.  It is used as an older person in 1 Tim 5:1 and as a leader in 1 Tim 4:14 "Presbytery" or "counsel of elders".  A counsel of elders (a plurality) consists of more than one elder as rulers.  With this taken in context, it becomes clear that the church is overseen or "bishoped" by a group of men (elders) who have the oversight (1 Peter 5:1-3) of the congregation.

"Overseen" and "shepherded" by this group of older, spiritually mature men referred to as "elders" who are in the position of leadership among the congregation.  Hopefully this clears up my meaning when I refer to elders.

Yes, scripture does use the word elder in the context of spiritual maturity quite frequently. Even though scripture does not give the specific ages of the Apostles it is figured by statements and circumstances of what they were doing at the time that they were in the ages of 17 to 30 at the start of Jesus' ministry.

The word was indicative of a person aged physically when used by the Jews but used in the spiritual aspect when used by the celestial council or Christian “presbyter” (Heb 5:14). Keep in mind also that the average age of a person at that time in Jerusalem was 35.

Hello Salesman42,

WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Elders were to be "appointed" in every city Titus 1:5.  This would indicate that the term "elder" has an additional importance other than age. It would seem that one would not have to be appointed to be more mature or older in age.  They were appointed to be overseers as they worked and lived among the brethren.

I appreciate the opportunity to share my thoughts and to come to a better understanding of God's word. 

I do not understand how the concept of a single man being called a "pastor" who is over a church. This is reserved for those with the qualifications Paul gave Timothy and Titus.  Elders of the church are always spoken as elders (plural) as in Acts 20.  It would see unscriptural to call a man a pastor unless they met the qualifications and were a part of the whole eldership. In addition, there is never a "head elder" or a "teaching elder" since teaching is a qualification for all elders and they are all equal in authority.  How did this error of a man "pastoring a church" come about?

The word pastor comes from Jer 17:16 and it is not in error. It means 'one that leads'. This came about as one person that conducted the preaching so that there would not be mass confusion with everyone trying to preach all at once. There is nothing unBiblical about it at all.

First, I agree with Pastor Roger - this is not an error.

Let's cut to the chase. Where are you trying to take this? Who or what do you suggest in the place of a Pastor?

Actually I am not trying to take this anywhere. I simply believe that New Testament words should be used correctly. 

Going to the old testament scriptures for authority would have been good for the Jewish nation while under the Old Law, but we are not governed by the old testament today and the language and its usage is not the same.

The root word for "pastor" and "shepherd" is poimēn.  One who cares for, oversees, feeds, etc.   This is the function of the elders under whom the preacher/ministr  labors.   There is no new testament example of a single elder/pastor/shepherd/bishop over a congregation.  It is alway referred to as a plurality  (ie presbytery - body of elders). 

This idea of a single pastor over a congregtion is what I was referring to as an unscriptural position.  Hope this clears up ay confusion.

I don't remember any of us saying that we're confused. Nobody here is confused as far as I know. I know that I'm not confused.

Ephesians 4:11-12 (KJV)  11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;   12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

If you don't like the organization of the local assembly you're attending, go to a different local assembly or start your own. Regardless, some form of structure and authority will be needed for peace, order, and Biblical teaching. Otherwise, you would have babes teaching babes and would have great need of milk.

Love In Christ,
Tom

I agree the word "elder" primarily refers to spiritual maturity, not physical age. There are a lot of older believers who are still spiritual babies. However, in Jewish culture, men didn't begin to be respected and followed as "elders" until they were over 30 years old. Jesus himself didn't begin his public ministry until he reached that age. I don't think many people even today would respect a 17 year old "elder". There is a loose connection between physical age and spiritual maturity, as it takes time to become spiritually mature.

Also be careful of the last statement you made. I once listened to a public school teacher tell her class that people in early America had to marry young because the average lifespan was about 45 and they had to be able to raise their children before they died - a totally untrue conclusion drawn from an accurate statistic. Most men in early America were in their late 20's when they married and the women in their early twenties. The reason the average lifespan was so low was the high infant and child mortality rate. If you made it through your teens you were likely to live nearly as long as people do today. This situation was also present in Israel in Jesus' day.

hi.... so I've been reading this book, undercover by john bevere.  has anyone read it? 
Another thing, the pastor and his wife are a pastoral team, they are both pastors.
the pastor wife feels she is a "mother" to everyone....

so I guess my question is, how to develop boundaries in one's self.... I've been praying about this, i feel that our church has been working like bevere's book says in some ways... and I don't agree with everything that he says....  I think we can use the scripture to back up whatever we want to say even though looking at scripture in context it doesn't say what we "say" it says, at all....  ??? does anyone understand what I'm saying?  :)

I don't know anything about the book that you are talking about. John Bevere though is a protege of Binny Hinn. If his teachings are anything like Hinn's then it is a book that needs to be thrown away. Yes, scripture can be twisted when a person selects certain passages to support there own opinions and ignores the rest.

Amen to that brother.  We see the twisting of Scripture all the time today.