ChristiansUnite Forums

Good morning! I used to pop in now and then as Willowbirch. I was raised Christian and baptised, but now I have the Gripe, I'm not sure where I caught it.
I am a "God fearer" right now, I love and respect Christianity, but don't agree. I have some questions for those who may understand apostates, but I don't want to discuss them if that would be offensive to the forums. Is that kind of discussion allowed?

Hi Willowbirch/anodos,

I'm glad to see you again. It has been awhile.

There is nothing wrong with asking questions as long as you are sincere in seeking the answers. Let's take this a step at a time.

What is it that you think that you disagree with Christianity right now?

Thank you!

I have not found the concept of an individual's God in the Old Testament. It seems that He is the God of the people, the Jewish nation, and when He gives instruction or encouragement to individuals, it is usually for the nation rather than the person. When Jews pray they often refer to themselves in the plural, as representing the Jewish people rather than only themselves. The psalms refer to individuals, but they were meant to be sung by the congregation, not just David. It is the nation which inherits the earth, not the individuals.

Also, I know that in the book of Daniel the angel instructs that Daniel must live, and die, and then be resurrected to receive his reward, but otherwise I have found very little about the resurrection of individuals. The visions of the heavenly kingdom seem to me to be an earthly civilization, uniquely good and governed by the One God, a continuation of earth's life rather than a heavenly afterlife. It is also a place where people can be expected to die -- though their lives will be long and full. I do not see evidence that the New Jerusalem is made of resurrected souls of the elect throughout history. Hell is the grave rather than a place of future judgement.
I don't find a Hell or Heaven that seems familiar to Christianity in earlier scriptures. The afterlife seems to have been evolved, rather than revealed. (I get frustrated when things evolve. I want them to be true RIGHT AWAY! ::))

Why was the Septuagint used as the source for the New Testament? It was Greek. Wouldn't the Bible have been studied in Hebrew? (Maybe the authors were influenced by gentile occupation.) Matthew uses the Septuagint to claim the prophecy of virgin birth; in this Isaiah verse, the Hebrew bible does not specify that the mother was virgin, and the context seems to have been an immediate prophecy for Ahaz rather than a far-reaching one: by the time the boy was a few years old, he would be eating milk and honey, because the famine would be over. (I don't claim to understand the book of Isaiah, however.)
Also, I have read that the earliest version of Mark, which may be the earliest New Testament text, made no reference to a virgin birth or to the bodily resurrection of Christ.

And the Pharisees:

I am upset by the disrespect given to Pharisees. I have never witnessed any "foaming at the mouth" blaspheming of them, but somehow it is usually implied. They are equated with satan; they practically share a brain with him. If anyone sympathizes with Pharisees, it usually sounds like this: "We, too, could be just as bad as them, if we aren't careful."
The reality of the Roman rule does not play a part in most Christian stories. The only oppressors are those pointy-bearded, beady-eyed Pharisees, who were involved in spiritual cannibalism and were constantly plotting Jesus's demise. When they debate with Jesus, it is viewed as proof of how much they hated Him and His Father. The entire tragedy of the crucifiction is blamed on Pharisees, if it isn't blamed on Jewish nature in general, regardless of the fact that Jesus was tried by the Sadducean High Priest who was kind of a puppet for the Romans, and condemned by a really bad Pontius Pilate, who was under other gentile jurisdictions.
Pharisees argued; it was almost a lifestyle. There is a story (I wish I remember which book it was in) that a good Jewish toddler, in the idyllic time of King David, was so excellent in logic and so knowledgable of Torah that he could prove a bacon cheeseburger was kosher. Why shouldn't lawyers argue with Jesus, who apparently loved to argue right back? He is frequently pictured in a hoarde of Pharisees (or lawyers or scribes), all arguing long into the evening. He is asked for his opinions on laws and customs; he asks his own questions.
Pharisees were respectful; they called one another 'Sir', as they also called Jesus. They were fair-minded, and often amended Mosaic laws to prevent an injustice being done: for instance, the law called for 40 lashes for certain offenses, but the Pharisees lowered the number to 39, because the whipper might make a counting mistake and over-punish someone. Also, if a rich man was on a journey and became hungry, he was allowed to eat from the crops reserved for the poor, because he was -- at that moment -- a poor man. When he had his riches again he could repay what he had eaten.


Noahide Laws:

Gentiles were not required to fulfill the entire Law in order to be right with the Jewish God, unless they chose to convert to Judaism. They could be "God-fearers", or Devout; they were accepted under the basic commands God gave to Noah rather than 613 commands given to Moses. They abstained from eating the lifeblood (some versions of this prohibition were against the eating of an animal that was still alive), they refrained from adultery and murder, etc. This is pretty much the decision of James concerning gentile Christians.
Why does Christianity teach that everlasting damnation is automatic and there are only two (really just one) ways to escape: the complete Law, which is considered intrinsically impossible to fulfill, and belief in Christ? Why was an intermediary required, when it hadn't been before?

That's all I can think of tonight. I appreciate anyone's responses! I will give you free coffee:
 (http://www.reallynatural.com/archives/Coffee%20Lover.jpg)

All I can say at first is WOW. I asked a simple question and get what looks like a lengthy book report from a book written by a Rabbi on why Jesus Christ is not the Messiah and the New Testament is a conglomeration of false beliefs. Now that I fully understand your original post I can fully answer your first question. It is indeed against the forum rules to teach things that are against The Holy Bible and Jesus Christ in this manner.

To answer a few of the rest of your questions ...


There is much in the Old Testament that foretells of the coming of the Messiah. Jesus Christ fulfilled those prophecies. You mention that you think there is nothing in the Bible about a virgin giving birth before the Gospels.

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isaiah is the first mention of this and it tells us that His name will be Immanuel (God with us) which is also a title given to Jesus. This book has this same verse even in the oldest texts found.


I wouldn't use the word evolve because even though it may seem so it doesn't apply. There is much that was not revealed until God came to us in the flesh and told us of them. There is much yet that has yet to be revealed such as the time of the return of Jesus Christ.


This is man's perception and not that which is given in the Bible. The Pharisees are not given the sole guilt of the crucifixion of Jesus. Yes, a number of those of Jesus' time were definitely involved but it is the sin of mankind that was the purpose and cause of the cross not just one small group. As Jesus Himself said on the cross "forgive them; for they know not what they do." He was not referring to just the Pharisees here but all those that took a part no matter how small in His crucifixion.

It was not just the  Pharisees that Jesus would rebuke. There are a number of times that the Sadducees were also involved in this as well as others that were not mentioned by their cast. It was for several reasons, one of those being that they went through the actions of righteousness and not that of Faith (cleaning the outside of the cup and not the inside.)

And yes there were a number of times that the Pharisees plotted to kill Jesus because they rejected Him as the Messiah and accused Him of blasphemy.

I realize that I haven't responded to all of the points that you made in your post nor do I plan to. It is important first of all to accept Jesus Christ for who He is ... Lord, Saviour, the prophesied Messiah, the son of God, very God.

Joh 5:46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Hello Willowbirch and/or anodos,

It's nice to hear from you, but I'm sorry to see that you are suffering such confusion. One of your biggest problems appears to be mixing "Law and Israel" with "Grace and the BODY OF CHRIST". Also, one is before the CROSS, and one is after the CROSS.

As a Christian, my HOPE is NOT the Millennial Kingdom promised to Israel after the SECOND COMING OF CHRIST. Neither is this the HOPE of Jews who have become Christians. It's impossible to mix all that you're mixing without becoming terribly confused. It appears that you're also trying to mix philosophy into the questions, and that doesn't help. In cooking terms, you must put the ingredients in separate bowls and know what's in each bowl, when it's used in the recipe, and for what purpose.

If you want things to be simple, they can be simple enough for any child to understand. Especially in this Age of Grace, things can be extremely simple. Humans do wrong and disobey GOD - The CREATOR - so they deserve punishment. JESUS CHRIST died on the CROSS to take our punishment in HIS OWN body. Faith in JESUS CHRIST, WHO HE IS, and WHAT HE DID is the way to SALVATION. This obviously involves us knowing that we have done wrong and asking GOD for forgiveness. This should be easy for most people, but it really isn't because many enjoy doing wrong, don't want to stop, and could care less about GOD or forgiveness.

The Holy Bible teaches many things as basic Bible FACTS. Some believe and accept those FACTS, and some don't. From the perspective of a Christian, the Bible FACTS are REAL and TRUE whether someone wants to believe them or not. One of the most basic facts is: GOD, good, and HEAVEN are REAL - just as REAL as the devil, evil, and HELL. There is MUCH MORE than just this short life, regardless of whether a person believes this or not.

JESUS CHRIST - VERY GOD - was made manifest in the flesh by virgin birth. HE was exactly who HE said that HE was - The SON Of GOD - The MESSIAH - The Anointed KING of Israel. HE came unto HIS OWN, but HIS OWN rejected him and had HIM Crucified on the CROSS. HE went willingly to the CROSS because no combination of forces in the universe could have forced HIM to do a single thing. Had Israel accepted HIM, JESUS CHRIST would have established the Promised KINGDOM and been their KING. We can confuse things some by saying that GOD knew ALL in eternity past, so HE knew about this rejection before CREATION.

That KINGDOM was promised to Israel by GOD, so that promise will be kept. JESUS CHRIST will rule and reign over the earth as the rightful KING of Israel after HIS SECOND COMING. In the meantime, JESUS CHRIST is already the KING OF KINGS and has a Heavenly Kingdom. Christians already have their KING, and Christians have been given better PROMISES than Israel. Christians have already been rescued from the curse of sin and death, and the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD lives in our hearts. We are already a part of GOD'S Heavenly KINGDOM, but we won't receive all the Promises in this short life. Israel is treated differently because of the Promises of GOD - just as Christians are treated differently by the Promises of GOD.

Nobody can answer all of your questions in 5 minutes or 5 years, so it would be foolish to try. I will tell you that all of your answers are in GOD'S WORD, and they are already on this forum and a host of other places. For now, I'll just say that it's impossible to compare Exodus with Galatians unless you know what you are comparing. I'll also say with certainty that they DON'T CONFLICT and compliment each other perfectly. Comparisons of these two books would take tons of effort and time, and that would be just the beginning. Frankly, it might be better for you to start over and begin at the CROSS. If you have lost your path and are searching for it, there is a highly defined PATH from the CROSS. I must add that this PATH contains the most important FACTS in history.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 AMP  THEREFORE, SINCE we do hold and engage in this ministry by the mercy of God [granting us favor, benefits, opportunities, and especially salvation], we do not get discouraged (spiritless and despondent with fear) or become faint with weariness and exhaustion.  2  We have renounced disgraceful ways (secret thoughts, feelings, desires and underhandedness, the methods and arts that men hide through shame); we refuse to deal craftily (to practice trickery and cunning) or to adulterate or handle dishonestly the Word of God, but we state the truth openly (clearly and candidly). And so we commend ourselves in the sight and presence of God to every man's conscience.  3  But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.  4  For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.  5  For what we preach is not ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves [merely] as your servants (slaves) for Jesus' sake.  6  For God Who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts so as [to beam forth] the Light for the illumination of the knowledge of the majesty and glory of God [as it is manifest in the Person and is revealed] in the face of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [Gen. 1:3.]  7  However, we possess this precious treasure [the divine Light of the Gospel] in [frail, human] vessels of earth, that the grandeur and exceeding greatness of the power may be shown to be from God and not from ourselves.  8  We are hedged in (pressed) on every side [troubled and oppressed in every way], but not cramped or crushed; we suffer embarrassments and are perplexed and unable to find a way out, but not driven to despair;  9  We are pursued (persecuted and hard driven), but not deserted [to stand alone]; we are struck down to the ground, but never struck out and destroyed;  10  Always carrying about in the body the liability and exposure to the same putting to death that the Lord Jesus suffered, so that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be shown forth by and in our bodies.  11  For we who live are constantly [experiencing] being handed over to death for Jesus' sake, that the [resurrection] life of Jesus also may be evidenced through our flesh which is liable to death.  12  Thus death is actively at work in us, but [it is in order that our] life [may be actively at work] in you.  13  Yet we have the same spirit of faith as he had who wrote, I have believed, and therefore have I spoken. We too believe, and therefore we speak, [Ps. 116:10.]  14  Assured that He Who raised up the Lord Jesus will raise us up also with Jesus and bring us [along] with you into His presence.  15  For all [these] things are [taking place] for your sake, so that the more grace (divine favor and spiritual blessing) extends to more and more people and multiplies through the many, the more thanksgiving may increase [and redound] to the glory of God.  16  Therefore we do not become discouraged (utterly spiritless, exhausted, and wearied out through fear). Though our outer man is [progressively] decaying and wasting away, yet our inner self is being [progressively] renewed day after day.  17  For our light, momentary affliction (this slight distress of the passing hour) is ever more and more abundantly preparing and producing and achieving for us an everlasting weight of glory [beyond all measure, excessively surpassing all comparisons and all calculations, a vast and transcendent glory and blessedness never to cease!],  18  Since we consider and look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen; for the things that are visible are temporal (brief and fleeting), but the things that are invisible are deathless and everlasting.

Nope, I'm no Rabbi. I wasn't trying to mislead you about the nature of my questions, I'm sorry that it seemed that way! Also I didn't intend to be a teacher, although I was wordy (for which I also apologize).

You are right!

Thank you, that was what I was afraid of. I will keep looking and learning!

Thank you for your counsel. I apologize for giving an offense to Christ.

Hello Willowbirch / anodos,

You have a good weekend also.

If you try to concentrate on portions of Scripture that deal with Salvation and this Age of Grace, much of your confusion will disappear. I would suggest that you start with Romans and go through 2 Timothy. One doesn't need to understand Moses, the Law, Jewish culture and customs, the Tribulation Period, and many other things to be SAVED. You could spend a lifetime with just the portions of Scripture I gave you, and they do contain the RICHES OF CHRIST - HIS CHURCH - HIS BODY, a mystery not known to men of other ages. You also don't have to understand all of the Mysteries and Ways of GOD to be SAVED. If you wanted a shorter study, Romans probably represents the heart of SALVATION. If you want to simplify the method of SALVATION, Old Testament and New Testament are the same -  GOD'S GRACE, GOD'S LOVE, AND FAITH IN GOD.

A good start would be to slowly read Romans 4. To help you out a little bit, the "circumcision" is Israel, and the "uncircumcision" is the Gentiles.

Romans 4:1-25 ASV  What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?  2  For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.  3  For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.  4  Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.  5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.  6  Even as David also pronounceth blessing upon the man, unto whom God reckoneth righteousness apart from works,  7  saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, And whose sins are covered.  8  Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin.  9  Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.  10  How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision:  11  and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision; that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them;  12  and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision.  13  For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.  14  For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect:  15  for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression.  16  For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all  17  (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.  18  Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be.  19  And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah's womb;  20  yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God,  21  and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform.  22  Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.  23  Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was reckoned unto him;  24  but for our sake also, unto whom it shall be reckoned, who believe on him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,  25  who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 1:16-17 NLT  For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes-Jews first and also Gentiles.  17  This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, "It is through faith that a righteous person has life."

Hebrews 12:1-8 NLT  Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off every weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us.  2  We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish. He was willing to die a shameful death on the cross because of the joy he knew would be his afterward. Now he is seated in the place of highest honor beside God's throne in heaven.  3  Think about all he endured when sinful people did such terrible things to him, so that you don't become weary and give up.  4  After all, you have not yet given your lives in your struggle against sin.  5  And have you entirely forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you, his children? He said, "My child, don't ignore it when the Lord disciplines you, and don't be discouraged when he corrects you.  6  For the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes those he accepts as his children."  7  As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Whoever heard of a child who was never disciplined?  8  If God doesn't discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children after all.

Romans 4:3-8 NLT  For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."  4  When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.  5  But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.  6  King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous:  7  "Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight.  8  Yes, what joy for those whose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord."

2 Corinthians 1:20-22 NLT  20  For all of God's promises have been fulfilled in him. That is why we say "Amen" when we give glory to God through Christ.  21  It is God who gives us, along with you, the ability to stand firm for Christ. He has commissioned us,  22  and he has identified us as his own by placing the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the first installment of everything he will give us.

Hello Willowbirch / anodos,

I see that you're still here, so please allow me to try and help you a little bit more. Abraham is not Israel, and Abraham was not part of what's called "the circumcision" because the LAW didn't exist at that time. "Circumcision" was a SIGN of the LAW and obedience of the LAW. The Law was given to Israel, and the Gentiles were considered to be too unclean to receive such Holy things as the Law. In fact, the Jews were trained to stay away from Gentiles and not associate with them for that very reason - Gentiles were unclean barbarians not worthy of the things of GOD. One needs to remember that Israel had over 600 Levitical Laws to follow, and all were considered to be too Holy to share with Gentiles.

I also want to share Romans 4 again with you from another translation that many find to be easier to understand - The New Living Translation.

Romans 4:1-25 NLT  Abraham was, humanly speaking, the founder of our Jewish nation. What were his experiences concerning this question of being saved by faith?  2  Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride.  3  For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."  4  When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.  5  But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.  6  King David spoke of this, describing the happiness of an undeserving sinner who is declared to be righteous:  7  "Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight.  8  Yes, what joy for those whose sin is no longer counted against them by the Lord."  9  Now then, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it for Gentiles, too? Well, what about Abraham? We have been saying he was declared righteous by God because of his faith.  10  But how did his faith help him? Was he declared righteous only after he had been circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? The answer is that God accepted him first, and then he was circumcised later!  11  The circumcision ceremony was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous-even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are made right with God by faith.  12  And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.  13  It is clear, then, that God's promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was not based on obedience to God's law, but on the new relationship with God that comes by faith.  14  So if you claim that God's promise is for those who obey God's law and think they are "good enough" in God's sight, then you are saying that faith is useless. And in that case, the promise is also meaningless.  15  But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)  16  So that's why faith is the key! God's promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham's. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.  17  That is what the Scriptures mean when God told him, "I have made you the father of many nations." This happened because Abraham believed in the God who brings the dead back to life and who brings into existence what didn't exist before.  18  When God promised Abraham that he would become the father of many nations, Abraham believed him. God had also said, "Your descendants will be as numerous as the stars," even though such a promise seemed utterly impossible!  19  And Abraham's faith did not weaken, even though he knew that he was too old to be a father at the age of one hundred and that Sarah, his wife, had never been able to have children.  20  Abraham never wavered in believing God's promise. In fact, his faith grew stronger, and in this he brought glory to God.  21  He was absolutely convinced that God was able to do anything he promised.  22  And because of Abraham's faith, God declared him to be righteous.  23  Now this wonderful truth-that God declared him to be righteous-wasn't just for Abraham's benefit.  24  It was for us, too, assuring us that God will also declare us to be righteous if we believe in God, who brought Jesus our Lord back from the dead.  25  He was handed over to die because of our sins, and he was raised from the dead to make us right with God.


Love In Christ,
Tom

Philippians 3:7-21 NASB  7  But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.  8  More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,  9  and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,  10  that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;  11  in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.  12  Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  13  Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,  14  I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.  15  Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;  16  however, let us keep living by that same  standard to which we have attained.  17  Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.  18  For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,  19  whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.  20  For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;  21  who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

I didn't mean to insinuate that you were a Rabbi. Sometimes it is necessary to be wordy in order to explain oneself so that is not a problem either.


You've been given some wonderful guidance by blackeyedpeas so I won't say anymore except that we will be glad to help you continue in your search and learning.

Thank you!

Welcome back

Everyone more learned than myself have already given great references and I would recommend starting where advised to start.

I do have but one comment to make and that was on your first paragraph where you talked about God not being personal.  I have but a couple of questions to posit to that before you conclude that God was not personal.
Who walked with Adam? It was God.  God walked with man in the garden.
Who turned their back on God? It was man when they hid from God after not following God's will.

Who asked Cain "Where is your brother Abel?"  Abel was not religious "leader", Adam still had that role.   It was God, God was so personal that He came and talked to Cain.
Who shunned the personal attachment to God?  Cain did when he shouted back to God that he was not his brothers keeper.

Do you remember Enoch?  Who was he and what does Genesis 5 say about him?  It says that Enoch walked with God.  Enoch was so close to God that God spared him a physical death and simply took him away.

I simply do not see how you can say that God was not personal.  God was always personal, it was man who always wanted, and still today, wants a God that is not personal.  You can get nothing but personal God out of the new or the old testament.  God wants to be personal to each and every one of us, but yet it is we that want to limit and narrow the view of God so that we only see Him when we want to see Him.

AMEN BROTHER JERRY!

I'm very happy that you talked about the Love of a very personal GOD. All need a regular reminder about the personal relationship that HE wants to have with each one of us. This also answers a HUGE question:  why did GOD Create us? HE Created us in HIS Image for an Eternal Purpose. HE loved us before the beginning, and HE would really like for us to return that love. HE could have CREATED great hosts of human beings who would have loved and accepted HIM from the start, but that's not the Way of GOD. HE wants our love and acceptance of HIM to be voluntary and real. As a result, great hosts of people have rejected HIM, disobeyed HIM, and even mocked HIM.

ALMIGHTY GOD - OUR CREATOR - IS GOD THE FATHER - GOD THE SON (JESUS CHRIST) - AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT - yet the THREE ARE ONE! No power in the universe could have forced JESUS CHRIST - VERY GOD - to go to the CROSS! JESUS CHRIST - incarnate GOD made flesh - went to the CROSS willingly FOR US as a matter of ULTIMATE LOVE - a PURE LOVE (AGAPE) not known by the world. HE took our punishment in HIS OWN HOLY BODY - something we certainly didn't deserve. This is GOD'S PURE GRACE - a merit and favor we could never earn or deserve.

The CROSS did happen and is the most precious event in the history of mankind. Our CREATOR died for us, and we should know there is no greater love. HE arose from the dead on the third day and is our LIVING LORD AND SAVIOUR for those who accept HIM and believe. Great hosts of people have accepted HIM as LORD over their lives, and they testified that HE IS REAL! Knowing JESUS CHRIST does result in us loving HIM because HE Loved us first and gave HIMSELF for us. The more we know HIM - the greater our love for HIM is. WHY? - HIS NATURE - HIS GRACE - HIS LOVE - AND HIS FELLOWSHIP! GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS SENT TO US BY JESUS CHRIST AS A COMFORTER AND GUIDE until we are HOME with our LORD AND SAVIOUR FOREVER! HE wants a daily and personal relationship with us, and THIS is up to us. The quality and quantity of fellowship is totally up to us. I'll just say that this short life is much more beautiful with CHRIST as our HEAD, CORE, and PURPOSE. The world can't give us anything except evil. As an opposing contrast, JESUS CHRIST is WORTHY AND HOLY. It's a JOY to know that our Eternity is with HIM in a HOME that HE has prepared for us.

Please see the following posts. You've probably seen something like them before. I like to reflect on them and study them often.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Romans 8:31-39 ASV  What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?  32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not also with him freely give us all things?  33  Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;  34  who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.  35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?  36  Even as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.  37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.  38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,  39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank you for the verses! I have been going through 1 and 2 Corinthians. I am reading in the New Jerusalem Bible, and am enjoying this translation.

I apologize for being rude, but I am grateful for the people who "put me in my place". I did not know that I wasn't Christian (or at least Christian-minded) at the time. It has been so much help to me, just realizing that I am so off center. Thank you!

Hello Anodos / Willowbirch,

I'm not worried about anyone being rude, but I'm stunned and stumped about what happened and when. This was after reflecting on years. I realize that the times have changed and things are getting more difficult for Christians, but that doesn't mean that GOD has changed. I mentioned this because of all the false teaching that Christians are supposed to be HEALTHY AND WEALTHY. This is wrong and causes all kinds of problems, confusion, and distrust. GOD never promised Christians an easy time in this short life - just the opposite.

This is just one example of FALSE TEACHING. Sadly, there are many more.

Love in Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 1:1-11 NASB  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia:  2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,  4  who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.  5  For just as the sufferings of Christ are ours in abundance, so also our comfort is abundant through Christ.  6  But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;  7  and our hope for you is firmly grounded, knowing that as you are sharers of our sufferings, so also you are sharers of our comfort.  8  For we do not want you to be unaware, brethren, of our affliction which came to us in Asia, that we were burdened excessively, beyond our strength, so that we despaired even of life;  9  indeed, we had the sentence of death within ourselves so that we would not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead;  10  who delivered us from so great a peril of death, and will deliver us, He on whom we have set our hope. And He will yet deliver us,  11  you also joining in helping us through your prayers, so that thanks may be given by many persons on our behalf for the favor bestowed on us through the prayers of many.


Romans 8:16-28 NASB  The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,  17  and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.  18  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.  19  For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.  20  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope  21  that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.  22  For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.  23  And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.  24  For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?  25  But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.  26  In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;  27  and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.  28  And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.


2 Corinthians 5:1-21 NASB  For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  2  For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,  3  inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.  4  For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.  5  Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.  6  Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--  7  for we walk by faith, not by sight--  8  we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.  9  Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.  10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.  11  Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.  12  We are not again commending ourselves to you but are giving you an occasion to be proud of us, so that you will have an answer for those who take pride in appearance and not in heart.  13  For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; if we are of sound mind, it is for you.  14  For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;  15  and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.  16  Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.  17  Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.  18  Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,  19  namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.  20  Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.  21  He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hello! Sorry to put a new post on an old thread, but I just now found your April 4 reply and wanted to answer. I don't (consciously) subscribe to the "healthy and wealthy" doctrine; rather, as a younger person I got depressed because nothing bad had ever happened to me, and the Bible promised that the children of God would suffer poverty and persecution. I didn't know why God would 'curse' me with nice things and nice people when I wanted so badly to become his child.
Nothing happened to me; I am just a hyperfocusing introvert.

Being God's child has nothing to do with whether we are rich, poor, healthy or sick in this physical world. Being God's child simply means that we have His promises of eternal life with Him. Those are the riches and health that He speaks of.

Yes, God does say that at times we may face persecutions and trials because of our faith but that does not necessarily mean that all of us will nor does it mean that we will face it all of the time.

No problem - I'm glad that you did. I'll speak for myself and say that I'm disabled, but I don't blame God for anything. To the contrary, my faith is stronger than ever in a personal relationship with God that I treasure. There's a wonderful peace of heart when you know that God and the Holy Bible are the Absolute Truths. These are not just thoughts, rather the sure knowledge of fact and Absolute Reality. I realize these things are from the eye of the beholder, so all I can do is tell you how I feel. Jesus Christ is the central core of my life - I know Him and He knows me. I also consider the Holy Bible as the only accurate measurement of all Truth. I don't have just blind faith. There's a ton of evidence and logic that can't be ignored. The Bible Proves itself in countless ways, so I think it takes more faith to disbelieve it than to believe it. A lot of that evidence is posted on the forum.

The first important thing to know is that we're not putting our faith in men - rather the Supernatural Creator of the Universe and ourselves. Men in so-called religion cause all kinds of doubts with their behavior, but they're not the ones we have faith in. Religion is many times a dirty word because of all the things men have associated with it (i.e. hypocrisy, frauds, false teaching, false prophets, etc.). BUT, Salvation is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ - not men. I realize it's a matter of opinion for some, but I know this life isn't all there is. God's Word is quite logical and explains things that can't be explained in any other way. Again, this is a matter of opinion.

By the way, I don't understand how anyone would think it's a curse to be blessed with nice things and nice people. I do know that God does as He pleases in Heaven and on earth. On the opposite side of the coin from my previous post, the Bible says nothing about all Christians having to suffer poverty and illness in this short life. God blesses us however He wishes, but we all get sick and die. If we proclaim and praise His Name in this short life, we are sure to have some trials - not because of God - rather the world. There's a third side to this coin. God is our Heavenly Father and He does sometimes chastise His children when we do wrong or don't yield to His Will for us.

In looking at the big picture, this short life is like the blink of an eye compared to the Eternity that will most certainly be. As Christians, our citizenship is in Heaven, and this world is not our home. Our Hope and God's Promises are much better than anything this world has to offer. Rich or poor in this short life, a Christian's treasures and riches are in heaven. Healthy or ill during this short life, Christians will be given a Glorified body like that of Jesus Christ at God's appointed time. That Glorified body is incorruptible and eternal - not flesh and blood. There won't be any pain, suffering, sorrow, or tears in Heaven.

For Christians, it boils down to something very simple:  Loving God and belonging to Jesus Christ is the single most important part of this short life. For unbelievers:  Trust God - not men.

Love In Christ,
Tom

2 Corinthians 4:1-18 KJV  1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;  2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.  3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:  4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.  5  For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.  6  For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.  7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.  8  We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;  9  Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;  10  Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.  11  For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.  12  So then death worketh in us, but life in you.  13  We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;  14  Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.  15  For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.  16  For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.  17  For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;  18  While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

I believe you!  :-*

I have begun to find this too. It is hard for me to keep seeing past the "so-called religion" that coexists with real Christianity. Sometimes I wonder if there is even such a thing as "real Christianity"; but then I remember lovely people like George MacDonald, G.K. Chesterton, C.S. Lewis etc. who encourage me; and even if they turned out to be wrong, I would rather be "wrong" with them.

I know; my brain was put in backwards. It has come up with weirder things than that.  ;D (Also, I don't believe that way anymore.)

"Religion" is almost a dirty word in this day and age, and it can and does mean almost anything. Most of the things that "Religion" is associated with has nothing to do with a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. One first has to wade through the layers of false religions and cults, and then it actually gets worse from there. Everyone could think of dozens of examples - whatever man can think of to make a god of (i.e. money, themselves, other men, idols, other gods, and on and on). Man has made the word "Religion" so filthy that it isn't fit to be associated with Jesus Christ. God's Word is Pure and so is Jesus Christ.

Even the most dedicated Christian makes mistakes and stumbles often, but Faith comes by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God. Men are weak and fail, but God is Strong and never fails. This in no way hints that you shouldn't have fellowship with other Christians because they fail. However, the basis for fellowship with other Christians is faith and trust in Jesus Christ - not men. It's very sad that the failures and hypocrisy of men can discourage others and send them on a path away from Christ instead of to Him. This is why I love God's Word. It speaks for itself and it proves itself.

Love In Christ,
Tom

 

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread; I thought that I should post an update for anyone who might remember me and/or want "the rest of the story", and I wanted this to show up in context. I am convinced by Christianity and am now the happiest, blessed-est Catholic in the universe (and yes, I understand that these are Protestant forums, and I am not here to proselytize  ;)). 

Briefly:

1. I was depressed for a few years, which causes confusion all by itself.

2. One of the claims of most Christian denominations that I have found most difficult to accept is that God is Love (or is "personal"). I now feel that this is something that can be believed, partly because only God is necessary; He does not need anything to supplement or sustain Him. Although creation is of no necessity to the Godhead, He chose to need us, and to give life and reason. We exist only because the "Uncaused Cause" wills it.

3. For a while I thought that faith and reason were mutually exclusive; for me, sometimes this meant that I could not have faith, and other times it meant that I could not trust human reason. I don't see the incompatibility anymore. Faith supports and upholds reason, reason directs me to faith.

4. Another problem, which was serious for me, was the inconsistancy of Christian doctrine from one denomination to another; there was no central Christian authority who could make a definitive decision, unlike the situation of the Church in Acts, where one only had to bring a dispute before the proper authorities and have the issue resolved. I began to read some of the Early Fathers of Christianity (because it seemed that, if I wanted to find the Church today, I needed to go back to the Church of the first few centuries to know what they believed and taught), and I found what I was looking for in Catholicism.

That is a very short summary of where I was and where I am, for anyone who might be curious (or might have prayed for me). As mentioned above, although I'm happy to answer any questions anyone might have, I understand that a discussion of Catholicism might not be appropriate for Christians Unite Forums.

(http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww105/Cerlain/Greetings/cat-gif-s-hi-good-day-welcome-Hello-ceca-greetings-cats_largejpg.gif)

~Joy

Thank you!