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 There are prophecies to be fullfilled ...before ...Christ can come to take His church home to heaven.
Remember that the Bible says, the coming of the Lord happens, at the same time, as the gathering of his people, (2 Thessalonians 2:1).


1.) The Anti-Christ must be revealed to everyone, before Christ can come, (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).
Does everyone know ?



2.) The Judgment Day of God must come first ...before Jesus can come again also, (Revelation 22:10-12).

Because the verses say... that he brings his reward with him...when he comes again...to give 'EVERY' man.
 That means the good, and the bad.

More Bull, Sorry your on a roll, your WRONG again.

The Crusader

Would it not be better to offer scripture that proves him/her wrong than to just say, "more bull, your wrong again"?

How can anyone know or learn from replies such as that?

Hello Daredevil,

Welcome to Christians Unite.

If I could address some points you bring up....


2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

(two themes here)

2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: (lets stop here for a second)

The members of this church are apparently disturbed, possibly by a letter they had received from someone who claims to have been Paul and other Apostles claiming that the day of Christ was at hand.  Cleary they are concerned about this, and Paul calms their fears and says, let no man deceive you.  Now stop and ask yourself, why should these people be shaken, troubled in spirit if they thought the day of the lord was about to usher in the moment that christ was going to gather them to himself?  Looking at it from this perspective, it sounds as though they were concerned they had missed this gathering, and were now about to face the terrible and fierce day of the Lord.   Paul does point out two distinct themes in verse one.  1.the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and 2. our gathering together unto him.    

But continuing in verse 3 of Thes. Paul assures them the fierce day of christ is not come yet...

(verse 2 Th 2:3 continued)...for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The gathering of ourselves to Christ is suppose to be a glorious day to be looked forward to.  Here they are afraid.  Afraid they have missed it and Day of Lord is about to be upon them.   Paul addresses both issues by showing them the day they fear could not be about to happen because before that day, the man of sin has to be revealed, which has not happened yet.


To this I say Amen!  Ungodly a reward of Righteous judgment, and Godly a reward of Righteousness

Jud 1:14  And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, also prophesied to these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints,
Jud 1:15  to do judgment against all, and to rebuke all the ungodly of them concerning all their ungodly works which they ungodly did, and concerning all the hard things ungodly sinners spoke against Him.
(MKJV)

Clearly the Lord is seen coming WITH a myriad (greek= murias/myriad, or indefinate number) of Saints to execute Judgment.  Apparently rewards for the Godly have been handed out to these at an earlier time, as they are coming with the Lord to execute Judgment on the ungodly.

Grace and Peace!

  Since the whole subject of Rapture has worked its way into pop culture I will start from that angle.
   The movie Tribulation gives a very misleading impression of what Christians believe about the end times.  It is based on the book Tribulation, part of the Left Behind series.
  The movie says that all Christians believe in a rapture, the sudden inexplicable disappearance of all Christians from the earth at some future time.  On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches no such thing and neither does the Eastern Orthodox.  I grew up in a Baptist Church and I never heard of the rapture until Hal Lindsay popularized the idea.  Lindsay, in turn, never discussed the truth or falsity of a rapture, he simply assumed it to be true.
  The idea has a curious history.  For centuries people studied the Bible and a rapture never crossed anyone’s mind until the Adventists came up with it in the 1840’s.  It was part of their effort to explain why the world did not end when they said it would.
  There are two Bible verses that believers in a rapture cite as proof.  Both obviously refer only to death.  Neither says anything about all Christians disappearing at once, or anything happening to all Christians at once.  Again, the movie Tribulation commits the amazing blunder of saying that the Book of Revelation warns us about a rapture.  I have never spoken to anyone who pointed to Revelation for evidence of a rapture.  Revelation 6:9 tells us that the souls of the martyrs are in heaven, but Revelation tells us nothing about a sudden disappearance.
  Tribulation may be a successful horror movie but it conveys an enormously oversimplified picture of the world and of the spiritual problem.  Conservative Christians seem to believe that the New Age is a single movement.  It is not, it is a bewildering jumble of movements.

   Some have told me to read 1 Thessalonians 4: 16-17, a scripture I am familiar with.
  The passage tells of the Second Coming of Christ together with resurrection and presumably judgment.  It does not tell of Christians being raptured, or removed, from a world where political events are still taking place.  In the Left Behind series Christians are raptured out of the world before the Antichrist arises.  In Revelation the Antichrist is thrown into hell in Rev 19:20, while the resurrection does not occur until Rev. 20: 11-12, some time later.
  If resurrection is the same as rapture then the Left Behind series changes the order of events in the Bible.  If the notion of rapture has nothing to do with Biblical resurrection then the last fragment of support for a rapture vanishes.
  Belief in a rapture certainly looks like wishful thinking.   There is another downside.  With many conservative Christians expecting a rapture, there could be a falling away when it does not happen.

Hello Dale,

Welcome to CU!


Here I will just say that basing any doctrine on poplarity or lack thereof is bad medicene.  In reality, Pre-trib docrtine probably falls short of popular belief of a post trib view today.  Having said that, its always better to look and see what the Bible has to say rather than what is popular or not.


I have never seen the movie so I cannot comment on it.  While Hal Lindsey is deffinately largely responsible for modern day pre-trib view, he was not the first to address the idea as I will show later.


Pre-tribulation rapture, or immenancy doctrine as it has been called, has been around much earlier than 1800's.  The following should not be view as evidence for truth of a pre-tribulation based on scripture.  It is merely evidence of Pre-Trib view being believed long before the 1800's

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins" (Pseudo-Ephraem (374-627 AD).

The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"

As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."

"But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).

John Calvin, the reformer at Geneva during the 1500s and founder of the Presbyterian Church, made the following statements in some of his commentaries on books of the Bible: "Be prepared to expect Him every day, or rather every moment." "As He has promised that He will return to us, we ought to hold ourselves prepared, at every moment to receive Him.” "Today we must be alert to grasp the imminent return of Christ." Commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Rapture passage,” Calvin said that Paul "means by this to arouse the Thessalonians to wait for it, nay more, to hold all believers in suspense, that they may not promise themselves some particular time . . . that believers might be prepared at all times."

The Westminster Confession, written by the Puritans of England during the 1600s, declared that men should "shake off all carnal security and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come."

"I say, somewhat more because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (1 Thess 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John 14:2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time." (Morgan Edwards 1742-44).  


As I have already said, its a bad idea basing your beliefs on what various men teach concerning scripture.   While I agree with the above excerpts from various Authors, I can read scripture for myself and base my beliefs on that.  I only offer these as evidence to show men long ago had an immenant view of Christs return.   History indicates that postasy swept over the Church causing a lack of prophecy commentary from about 450 AD until the 1600s.  Interpretation of the Bible became what the institutional church spoon-fed them during this time.   It wasn't until the reform movement of the early seventeenth century that we see a rebound in the number of statements that reflect a pre-trib view.



No doubt you speak of these 2

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

To say that these only refer to the dead, is to ignore the references to those who are mentioned as alive.  I see mention of both dead (sleeping) and alive being changed.  Reading all the text in both cases how can one say this is not an event that affects all believers living and dead?  While I agree it doesn't say we will disapear, it does say we will all be changed, and ushered into the presence of the Lord.  I wonder if unbelievers who are not changed, and are left on the earth will be able to see us at this time?

(divided into 2 post due to length).

While there may be scripture that eludes to a rapture of Saints in Revelation, I too am hard pressed to show it.  A quick look at Revelation chapter 1:1-2 tells us the purpose of this book.

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:2  Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Its purpose is the Revealing of Jesus Christ to the world which is to occur shortly (still waiting), to his servants, and John who was intructed to record all that he saw.   It is also good to point out here that Jesus himself says in Mat 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.  So its fair to say that this event will not be pinned down to a particular time to John in Revelation making Jesus' earlier statement a lie.   We are only shown signs that preceed his coming in Matthew, and then shown things that would occur on the earth during the great tribulation...Not the hour when a rapture would occur, just that it have signs preceeding it, and that it would be when no-one expected it.


Short of comment on the movie I have not seen, to the rest I say Amen!


1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Unless political events are occuring the clouds these days, we will be in a different place at the time of this event.   As for judgment happening at the same time, it may.  But I for one will not assume this, as it its not mentioned.


In Revelation 11:11 we see where the two wittnesses are ressurected after 3 days and being told to "come up hither".  In Revelation 4 we see similar language being used to describe how John was trasported into heaven in order to see events transpiring there. (some elude to this being a possible rapture of the church, while I am not sure).  Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.  All this is before Revelation 20, and we see many mentions of Saints by John IN heaven before the first ressurection.  While the scripture is not clear, the first ressurection seems to be ongoing until chapter 20 makes it complete.


You keep refering to this movie as if all pre-trib believers make use of it as evidence for a pre-trib rapture. Again, I have not even seen the movie, so I cannot comment.   But I have shown God breathed scripture that gives more than a few fragments of such an event.  I would suggest digging into the Gods word if wish to understand what the Bible has to say on these things.   Movies may be entertaining, but not good for breaking down whether Gods word is true or not.


From what I have shown scripturally, it hardly appears to be wishful thinking.  Its Gods word.   While there is no doubt that a great falling away spoken of in scripture, I hardly see how you can pin that on a group of people that view the immenant return of Christ, which is taught by Jesus himself.   I could just as easily say, that those who are left behind (no reference to the movie) could fall away due to the immence persecution they will face in order to continue in their faith.  Neither being a good argument to define scripture.

While I agree with some on this forum of the possibilty of facing some of the tribulation period, I cling to Gods promise of...
1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

I do not believe the church will be here during Gods wrath.

This portion of history will be greater than any time ever before seen on the earth, including the time of Noah.  Revelation tells us that if those days were not shortened no flesh would survive.  In past events in the Bible where God has poored out his wrath, he always provides protection for his children, either by removing them from the area of judgment, or some other divine means.  This is not movie drama, this is Gods own word.  Don't take my word for what I have said here.  Get into Gods word and see what he has to say about it.  You can never go wrong there.

Grace and Peace!

 2nd Timothy:
<< Hello Dale, Welcome to CU! >> Thanks.

<< Here I will just say that basing any doctrine on poplarity or lack thereof is bad medicene.  In reality, Pre-trib docrtine probably falls short of popular belief of a post trib view today.  Having said that, its always better to look and see what the Bible has to say rather than what is popular or not. >>
 I am pointing out that these beliefs are being spread by novels and movies that are extremely inaccurate.

<< The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): "Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, 'speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'"    >>

  Clement is talking about the Second Coming, not a Rapture where Christians are removed from a world where political events are still taking place.

<< As early as 70 - 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, "'Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come."  >>

  Same here, this is Second Coming, not Rapture. Likewise, at a Church of the Nazarene I heard a whole sermon preached on being ready for Christ's return. The pastor didn't say a word about a Rapture, which means that he doesn't believe in one.

<< "But what a spectacle is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!" (Tertullian 155 - 245 AD).>>
  Again, this is Second Coming, not Rapture. The same goes for your quotes from John Calvin and the Westminster Confession.

  Your quote from Morgan Edwards does not use the word Rapture and seems to have a dual Second Coming.

<< 1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  >>
  These verses don't say anything about Christians being taken out of a world where evil still rules and wars are still taking place. They tell us of Second Coming, not Rapture.

<< In Revelation 11:11 we see where the two wittnesses are ressurected after 3 days and being told to "come up hither".     >>
  I've never seen this connected to a Rapture. I've always understood it as a unique event.

<<   <Conservative Christians seem to believe that the New Age is a single movement.  It is not, it is a bewildering jumble of movements.>
   
   Short of comment on the movie I have not seen, to the rest I say Amen! >>
  You apparently know what I'm talking about here.

  2nd Timothy:
  I hope my post above isn't too harsh.

 2nd Timothy: << I do not believe the church will be here during Gods wrath. >>

  Let me expand on the brief mention of martyrs in heaven in my first post.

  "When he [the Lamb] opened the fifth seal,, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, 'How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?'
  Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed." Revelation 6: 9-11 NIV

  This passage certainly makes it sound like many of these martyrs in heaven are recently arrived, and that they died at the hands of persons who are still alive and as yet unjudged. It gives the impression that these martyrs died at the hands of the Beast.

I agree.  And when viewed along side.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see a tottaly different event taking place.  But yet you insist...

But how do you explain Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
Whether of not there are wars taking place, there is no way to deny this says we will be caught up in the clouds!

Grace and Peace!

So if Jesus isn’t coming and we face some, most, or all of the hell-on-earth that the Tribulation shall be, then we may as well lock and load, and when the Brave New World Order comes to kick down our doors, be ready to greet them warmly.

Stand up for your rights to NOT take the mark—according to Regulation 5.56.

And that is what Satan is counting on !

Hello DD,




I do hope that when the Lord returns to claim His Bride and all of the believers are "snatched up"... that you don't express rebellion and say,

"Leave me behind!"

My studies have shown that there are too many differences identified in the Bible that are not reconcilable for there to be just one event.  

If you can reconcile these differences, you will make a believer out of me... else, I have to stay with the premillennial theology.

~serapha~




#1
Rapture:  Christ comes in the air  for His own. (1 Thes 4:16)
Second Coming:  Christ comes with His own to earth. (Rev 19:14)

#2
Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11)

#3
Rapture:  There will be a Rapture of all true believers.
Second Coming:  No one is "caught up"

#4
Rapture:  "The Lord is at hand" (Phil 4:5)
Second Coming:  "The Kingdom is at hand" (Matt 24:14)

#5
Rapture:  The expectation of the church is to be taken into the Lord's presence.
Second Coming:  The expectation of Israel is to be taken into the Kingdom.

#6
Rapture:  The Church is taken to heaven at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ sets up His kingdom on earth.

#7
Rapture:  The Rapture is imminent, or, at any moment.
Second Coming:  It will be a "glorious appearing" after seven years tribulation.

#8
Rapture:  The Rapture is for believers only.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming affects all mankind.

#9
Rapture:  It is a time of joy and comfort.
Second Coming:  It is a time of mourning and judgement.

#10
Rapture:  The Rapture is before the Day of Wrath.
Second Coming:  It is immediately after the tribulation.

#11
Rapture:  There is no mention of satan.
Second Coming:  Satan will be bound a thousand years.

#12
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the Judgement Seat of Christ
Second Coming:  There is no time/place for judgement.

#13
Rapture:  After the Rapture comes the marriage of the Lamb.
Second Coming:  The Bride descends with Christ.

#14
Rapture:  Christians are taken to the Father's house.
Second Coming:  Resurrected saints do not see the Father's house.

#15
Rapture:  After Rapture, tribulation comes.
Second Coming:  After the Coming, the thousand year reign of Christ begins.

#16
Rapture:  The translation is a program for the Church.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is a program for Israel and the world.

#17
Rapture:  The translation is a mystery.
Second Coming:  The Second Coming is predicted in both testaments.

#18
Rapture:  Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming:  Creation is changed

#19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.
Second Coming:  The Gentiles are judged.

#20
Rapture:  Believers are judged.
Second Coming:  Gentiles and Israel are judged.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.
Second Coming:  Israel's covenants are fulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.
Second Coming:  Evil is judged.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.
Second Coming:  Christ judges mankind.

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming

Hello DD,



The strongest arguments for a premillenial rapture comes from interpretations of the Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John.  The strongest evidence and support comes from Polycarp and Hierapolis who both studied with John.

A literal interpretation is the basis for the premillenial rapture.  Tertullian argues in his work "Against Praxeas" (Chapter 13) that "words ought to be taken and understood in the sense in which they are writen, especially when they are not expressed in allegories and parables, but in determinate and simple declarations."  A literal interpretation of the Word of God only clarifies that the believers will not endure the wrath of God, but will be "taken up" with the Lord before the tribulations and Great Tribulation.

Ephraim  writes a homily on "The End of the World" with the statement "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world?.... All the saints and elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which ovrwhelms the world because of our sins." (Jeffrey Grant, Apocalyps, Frontier Research Publications, 1992, p85-96)

The doctrines concerning the Rapture were squelched by the Gnostics and the rule of the Roman Catholic Church as being heretic.  There were no Bibles available to the masses until the printing press made copies available to the public.  Trinity College of Dublin Ireland was a frontrunner in the studies of premillenialism, and there was recurring of premillenial thought after the reformation.  

Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared.  Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind."  Just as the early church thought that the return of Christ was imminent, so did Luther.  A belief that the return of Christ was imminent is reflective of a "Rapture" return prior to the tribulations as Martin Luther was aware that the tribulations were not over when he wrote stating to look for the return of our Redeemer.  The early church questioned if the persecutions that they were enduring were of the tribulations, and Paul told them to look for the return of Christ at any time.  Paul obviously believed in a "rapturing" of the church and imminent return of Christ for his Bride.  

Paul identifies this in 2 Thessalonians 2:3, when Paul shos that the day of the Lord could not take place until there was a departure 1) from earth, or 2) of the saints.  In Verse 7 of the same chapter the lawless system could not be in effect until the restrainer is taken away.  The Holy Spirit will "move aside" on the earth with the rapture.  The Holy Spirit is the only restrainer holding back the evil of this world (satan).

Premillenialism and Rapture doctrine was again developed through the 18th and 19th centuries.  Reverend Morgan Edwards published a book, "Milleneum, Last Days Noveltus", in 1788 which described the tribulation.  He claimed to have preached the rapture from 1742 and was probably influenced by John Gill's teachings, which supported a premillennial "snatching away".

I hope this helps in your understanding.


~serapha~

Hello Dale,

You stated,





It is important to note that the "Left Behind" series indicates that there will be a "second chance" for unbelievers, which simply isn't true according to Scriptures, and I do believe we should use Scripture as a basis and not a movie.





Fortunately, views on the end times are not of salvific value.  We can disagree on our views and still share a plan of salvation through Jesus Christ as the only way and truth.  


~serapha~

Okay, so Jesus ISN'T coming? We're doomed to endure all 7 years of the Tribulation? Okay, then it's time for me to start digging the bunker, stacking the ammo boxes and mixing up the ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate Fertilizer/Fuel-Oil explosive).

Lock and load!

 Post #12: Serapha:

<< #2 Rapture: Christ returns on a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
Second Coming:  Christ returns on a white horse. (Revelation 19:11) >>

  Serapha,
             Does it occur to you that the white horse in Revelation could be symbolic rather than literal? If so, these two accounts are not contradictory.

  Likewise, your list of 24 reasons to believe in a Rapture is almost totally devoid of any scriptural reference for the Rapture half of your paired comments. Besides the one I just quoted, you mention Philippans 4:5, "The Lord is near," as evidence. This statement is far too vague to provide evidence for the removal of Christians from a world still at war.

  If Christ were to return for the purpose of Rapture and only later come back to judge the Beast, then the coming with the white horse would not be a Second Coming, but a Third Coming!  Sorry, I don't know one theologian who ever spoke of a Third Coming.

  You also say that those left on earth after the Rapture do not have the opportunity for salvation. My understanding of Christianity is that God would never turn away anyone who wants salvation. Another point: If those "left behind" do not have the opportunity for salvation, then who are the people who refuse the Mark of the Beast and are persecuted for doing so?

  Seraph, in post #12:
<< #19
Rapture:  The Gentiles are unaffected.

#21
Rapture:  Israel's covenants are unfulfilled.

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.

#23
Rapture:  There will be no judgement on earth at the Rapture.

#24
Rapture:  There are no signs of the coming Rapture.
Second Coming:  There are many signs for the Second Coming
 >>


  The reason that the "Rapture" has no relation, no effect, on gentiles, Israel, evil, and judgment is that Biblically there is no such concept. Likewise, there are no signs of a coming "Rapture" because there is no such thing.

Hi Dale,

I am interested in hearing how you interpret the following verses of scripture.  Maybe that would help me understand why it is you do not accept the Rapture as scriptural.  Where possible, try to show what you think each passage means and is talking about.  Please note that I ask in the kindest way.   I only wish to understand your view.


1Thes 3:13
13  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
(KJV)

1Thes 4:14-17
14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)


1 Cor 15:51-52
51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(KJV)

John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV)


After I see where you are coming from, prehaps we can discuss these things in more detail, one point at a time.  :)

Grace and Peace!

  In post #13, Serapha quotes Martin Luther:
<< Martin Luther writes, "I believe that all the signs which are to precede the last days have already appeared.  Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off; let us look up with heads lifted up; let us expect our Redeemer's coming with longing and cheerful mind."  >>

  I don't see what this has to do with a "Rapture."

The wicked are destroyed by the brightness of his coming, (2 Thess. 2:8).
?

#22
Rapture: There is no relationship to evil.
True, the Judgment is in heaven, (Revelation 22:11,12).
Yes, the Tribulation comes first ...then Christ's coming, (Matthew 24:29-31).
 >>

This is true....there is no such thing as a 'secret Rapture' found in scripture.

as the translation of living saints is imminent.

The believer's JUDGMENT is differewnt from the wicked's judgment as there is NO CONDEMNATION to those who are in Christ. (Romans 8:1,2  et al) The believer is judged only as to rewards and it occurs as the "JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST." It is described in 1 Corinthians. This is entirely different from the GREAT WHITE THRONE judgment of Revealtion in which the believer has no part whatsoever.

aw

 2nd Timothy:
<< John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
(KJV) >>

  The Many Mansions passage is certainly one of my favorites. I have no idea what you think it has to do with a Rapture. It is simply a description of heaven, of Paradise. It means that God's Kingdom is vast.

  Likewise, the verse you quote from Thessalonians 3 simply has nothing to do with a Rapture.

 Continuing my reply to 2nd Timothy:

  Harper's Bible Dictionary has an article on Resurrection but none on Rapture, since there is nothing to discuss.
  The Book of Daniel is apocalyptic but there is no mention of Rapture.
  "He [the angel] replied; Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end." Daniel 12:9 NIV
  "You will rest and then at the end of the days you will receive your allotted inheritance." Daniel 12:13 NIV
  This is Resurrection, not "Rapture."
  Ezekiel is apocalyptic and anticipates Revelation on many particulars. Ezekiel 37 describes the resurrection of a valley of dry bones. I am sure that many would see this as foreshadowing a general Resurrection, although there is another interpretation. It is clear that there is no "Rapture" in Ezekiel.
  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV
  This is four books of the Bible that deal with end time events. None of them foretell a "Rapture" or promise that Christians will be spared end time persecution. On the contrary, Christians are warned about the very persecution that the Rapturists say won't happen.

You are correct.  Verse 2 is partly a description of heaven given by the Lord.  You have only addressed a small part of verse 2 however.   We must also understand the second part of verse 2, and verse 3.  How do you interpret these?

John 14:2-4
2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4  And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

I have emboldened the portion you have not addressed.  Without taking the entire passage into consideration we cannot get to the heart of the matter.    We will get to the Thes. passage later.  

I understand from your PM that you have been busy.  No rush at all.  We can take our time here.

Grace and Peace!

Well, 8:05 PM Pacific Standard Time.  No rapture today (yet!) but there are a few hours left before the calendar turns over to 01/19/04.
Lord:  May your kingdom come!  May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.  AMEN!

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!  :)

Amen JudgNot!

1Co 15:19  If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

What a blessed hope we await!

Grace and Peace!

Maybe tomorrow!!!!!!!!!   :)

The Crusader

IF...you believe the Bible.
It says other things must happen first.

The "Mark of the Beast" scenerio comes 'before' anyone is taken to heaven.
 (Understand Revelation 20:4,5).

Yes, this is true.
 However....how many people who attend Sunday worship services follow Christ ?
Christ set up the 7th day Sabbath, as a sign, as to his true followers are, (Ezekiel 20:12,20).
There is ..no condemnation...to those who obey what he said to do.
"IF...you love me...keep 'my' commandments", (John 14:15).

Jesus also warns people:  "BUT IN VAIN...do they worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men", (Matthew 15:3,9).

Since there is no command from God, anywher,e in all the Bible, about replacing Sunday for God's Holy Sabbath day.....

Maybe you missed Revelation 12:12 DD.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Dwellers in heaven rejoicing, before the great white throne judgment.

Grace and Peace!

This is starting to look like another thread on the board.  I wont go into this, but I will simply ask, do you believe observing the law brings one to salvation?  I ask because maybe I misunderstood you.

Grace and Peace!

  2nd Timothy:
  On the Many Mansions passage:
<< You are correct.  Verse 2 is partly a description of heaven given by the Lord.  You have only addressed a small part of verse 2 however.  We must also understand the second part of verse 2, and verse 3.  How do you interpret these?
 >>

  The Gospel of John does not connect the Many Mansions passage with the End Times, with Tribulation, with persecution, Judgment, or Second Coming. It is simply a description of Christ receiving believers into Heaven. It gives us no clue as to when this will happen.

  As I said in my previous post:
<<  Jesus is apocalyptic in Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
  "[Jesus says]Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 24: 12-3 NIV This is a distinct anti-Rapture teaching.
  For those who believe in a Rapture, the purpose of the event is to spare Christians being persecuted under the anti-Christ. Yet Jesus plainly says, "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you." Luke 21:12 NIV >>

  How do you deal with the fact that Jesus Christ has decisively ruled out the possibility that any pre-Tribulation Rapture scenario can be true?

  Grace and peace to all Christians as they grapple with this issue!

I agree.  There is no clue as to when it will happen going by this passage.  Only that we will be taken into heaven.  The end of Revelation reveals a different scenario of Christ reigning on earth after his return.   There is simply no way to reconcile the above verse with....

Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

Here we see an army with Christ wearing white fine linen.  Fine linen is usually reserved for believers in christ.

And later,

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Two groups of people here.  Those sitting on thrones (plural) and those who were beheaded.  

Do you see the problem with this in regards to mansions passage?   The mansions passage agrees fully with the above scripture, because sainst are seen returning with him to earth, whereas, if we are not changed until the end, Jesus is involved in a useless construction project in heaven that the none of us ever see.   The Bride is collected before judgment.  Others will be converted during the tribulation, and ressurected at the end, thus explaining to the two distinct groups in Rev 20:4   Scirpture interpreting scripture yet again.


If you read all of Matthew 24 carefully, you will see that there are 3 questions asked of Jesus.   Jesus explains when the temple will be destroyed, (happend aprox. 65 years later), what the sign of his coming would be, and what would be the sign of the end of the age.   Right after he speaks of them being persecuted, and enduring till the end, he says the Gospel would be preached in all the world, and THEN the end would come.   This part didn't happen until probably this last century.  The desciples were persecuted, and suffered terrible deaths.    Also important to note that the mystery of the church had not yet been revealed.   Jesus would not have spoken clearly about when he was coming to receive his bride, when the desciples did not understand that until sometime during the events described in the book of Acts.   I don't see much referense to pro of con rapture in Matt 24.  Just the destruction of temple, the sings of his return, and the end of the age


While no one in there right mind wants to face persecution, we as christians are told to expect that, and in fact do.  The desciples faced death because of their witness.  Numerous Christians around the world (not so much in America) face similar trials and persecution.  To directly address the verse in Luke 21, notice he says "before this".  Before what?


Luk 21:10  Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12  But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you[......]

Again, it seems as though he is speaking directly to those who were listening to him, as kingdom rising against kingdoms, earthquakes in various places were all to take place during the end age.

Scolling down to verse 35,

Luk 21:35  For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Luk 21:36  Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

These things will come upon ALL them that dwell on the earth, but Jesus commands us to watch, and pray that we may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE ALL THESE THINGS.

Note the word DWELL.  Those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do a word search in Revelation and notice how the word DWELL is used of those who dwell on the earth, and those who dwell in heaven.   A clear distinction threaded throughout Revelation.


I think I have clearly shown in the very verse you provide how this is not the case.  Jesus will retrieve his bride before dealing with the unjust.   He has not appointed us to his wrath.  We are his children.  Yes we face worldy persecution and all sorts of trials to strengthen our faith, but being his children, we are not condemned to face his judgment.  He took Gods wrath and Judgment for us already at calvary.  Those who accept that gift, are the apple of his eye, and are not in need of facing his wrath and anger yet a second time, because our debt was paid in FULL.   However, those who reject this gift, will face a very angry, just, and righteous God.  

Rev 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

May God grant us power and insight through his holy spirit to help others come to a saving knowledge of Gods merciful grace and forgiveness.

Grace and Peace!

Hi DareDevil,


2Th 2:1  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It is an important observation that thessalonians are shaken, and troubled by a letter they had received a letter as if it were sent by the Apostles that the Day of the Lord had come.   Why would they be shaken by this if they thought it was upon them and they were about to be gathered to Christ?   Paul says in verse 1 "about the coming of the Lord, AND the gathering of ourselves unto him.  2 themes.  Verse 2 says the day of the lord, and verse 3 says that day cannot come until the Antichrist is revealed.   They were shaken because they feared they had missed the gathering up to Christ, and were about to enter the day of the Lord as reported by the false letter.

Grace and Peace!

In order not the throw off the current topic in this thread, I will simply direct you to the Apologetics/can we be saved by works thread.

I will say that there is absolutely nothing we can to earn our salvation.  Yes we love his commands, but there has never been one who has kept them all, except christ.  

If you want to discuss this topic, the previous thread I mentioned is extremely active.  I would prefer to keep this thread focused on the origianl topic of the rapture.   :)

Grace and Peace!

Without disturbing anyone's peace I would like to add fuel to the thread by stating that there will be in the end time a group of religious people that will look as though they are ok, yet they are in fact the pharisees & saddusees of this day & age completely missing the time in wich they are living.  Please notice:

Mat 16:2   He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red.
Mat 16:3   And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?
Mat 16:4   A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Notice: "A wicked and adulterous generation"  & "the sign of the prophet Jonas". He is referring to His ressurection, but can the sign be repeated ? Again giving todays "wicked and adulterous generation", "the sign of the prophet Jonas."

I think the only answer to that question can be "yes, it will happen". This will happen again and the sign of the prophet Jonas this time fullfilled as the rapture of the saints. Giving todays wicked and adulterous generation the sign of the prophet Jonas of 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish. Let's look up the book of Jonah and see if there is a hint to this:

Jon 1:4   But the LORD sent out a great wind into the sea, and there was a mighty tempest in the sea, so that the ship was like to be broken.
Jon 1:7   And they said every one to his fellow, Come, and let us cast lots, that we may know for whose cause this evil [is] upon us. So they cast lots, and the lot fell upon Jonah.
Jon 1:17   Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

And later on it goes:
Jon 3:6   For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered [him] with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

Ater 3 days and 3 nights Jonah is back on dry (solid!) land, he preaches the message that brings even kings unto repentance.

When you are a mid-trib believer you take Rev 12:6 at point-blank :

Rev 12:6   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.

By now you must have noticed: 1230 = 3 years = 3 days & 3 nights (!)

Any more ideas on this ?

I know you have a point here Twobombs, but I must be missing it completely.   I'm lost when you start talking about Rev 12:6.   Not sure what you mean there.  Also, doesn't the Jewish calender run on 360 day years?

Maybe I need to re-read it again when I'm not so tired.....(long nights work)

Grace and Peace!

2nd Timothy: You are correct, 3.5 years. Maybe it's half a day walk from the shores to the city of Nineve. That why it was an idea; a concept :)  Thanks for the time for the feedback.

Nineveh was where the current Iraqui city of Mosul is...and it's about 500 miles from the Med!

Took Jonah a little while to make the trip.