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I would be curious to see some good points on the argument that baptism isn't necessary for salvation vs. that it is.  I am under the inclination that if you seek salvation through Jesus, you have to follow up with submersive baptism whenever possible.  Of course if it isn't possible, God doesn't require the impossible, such as the thief on the cross.  I believe it has to be a conscience decision on your part and not a childhood baptism by your parents.  I base my decision on the fact that Jesus was baptized and that some believers were re-baptized when they realized that they had more in depth knowledge of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament and that the Word says that lest ye believe and be baptized in water you don't find salvation.

Anybody?  This doesn't determine my salvation, because I am baptized anyway, but for those that aren't and to increase my knowledge of the Word, I would like some different opinions.

Well Ketch...since I have not welcomed you yet...let me do so.  Welcome to the forums.

As far as your post is concerned I am sorry...I do not have a differing opinion.  Baptism, as in with water, is important to a person, but on a more personal level, as obedience to Christ.  The only baptism that is important is the baptism by the Spirit. 

There are many, many threads on this subject available on this forum that make for a good study.

Some key statements that are already made in this thread that says it all:

Baptism in the water of this world doesn't determine a persons salvation, period.

I am struggling... and here is why.

I am a Christian who believes without a doubt in the resurrection and life of Jesus.  However, I would like to know, not believe, that I am going to heaven to be with my Savior when I die.  I am having difficulty knowing because of the following:

1. Many people I know, who have spent their entire adult lives dedicated to the Lord and the study of His Word, have differing opinions on what it means to be saved. One believes that baptism is necessary and can quote chapter and verse why.  The other believes baptism isn't necessary and can quote chapter and verse why.  Often times these are the same verses and I can see both points of view.  The first person has a Masters in Divinity and is my pastor, and he is baptising my wife and I today at the river with all our friends present.  The other also has a Masters in Divinity and is a chaplain that I work with at Hospice who actually married my wife and I.  I know they both love the Lord and each have gone to Him in prayer over every aspect of their lives. I trust them both.

2. Every Christian belief has it's counterpoint.  One great follower of Christ can believe one thing, and many other great followers of Christ can point out why this is wrong.  Christ instructs us to listen to the Elders of our Church, but how are we supposed to know if what he is teaching is correct?  I can pray to the Lord as much as I like, but aren't they praying to Him as well?  And why is the Lord revealing Himself differently to different people?

3. Many arguments I have heard are that I need to stop listening to others and let the Lord reveal the truth through prayer, meditation, and study.  I know this is true, but I also know that many who do pray and meditate and study, believe different things.  One could say, well that person has preconceived notions on baptism and is not letting the Lord reveal Himself properly.  The other person could say that as well.  How do I know that my notions aren't preconceived and that I am missing the mark?

4. I have always loved and admired the teachings and writings of Billy Graham.  But lately somebody has pointed out that he has some false teachings.  After a few weeks of research, I can see their point, but didn't Billy dedicate his life to Christ?  Why was he led astray (if he was, I don't know)?  And if I can't rely on Billy, my pastor, or my chaplain, on answers I can't understand myself without guidance, who can I look to?  Do I look to you knowledgeable people here?  Pastor Bob said baptism isn't necessary... and can point to studies that indicate he is correct.  But so can the other side of the fence.

I hope this isn't too confusing, but I think my point is clear and I hope somebody can offer a glimmer of what a new Christian is supposed to do.

While I appreciate the word "period" at the end of your sentence as an indication that you absolutely know this to be true, it doesn't help.  My pastor states that the Bible indicates that baptism is necessary, period, and can give study upon study that show his point of view.  I see both points of view and would like to know how to discern what is truth and what is not.  Prayer helps, but my pastor, whom I am dear friends with, also prays daily and has a differing conclusion than yours.  He also has a Masters in Divinity and has dedicated his life to Jesus and the study of the Bible.  If he can't know the answer, how can a new Christian like myself discern who or what is correct?  Aren't we supposed to listen to the Elders of the Church?   I can come to my own conclusion via prayer and ferverent study, but how do I know my conclusions are from the Lord?.. and not preconceived notions?  I mean, if you believe what you believe, and my pastor and others believe what they believe... and it is so different... how can anybody be certain their ideas are truth?

Hello ketch,

It can be very confusing especially with all the different new teachings that are coming out each and every day. Much of the misunderstanding is in people not separating what is worldly from that which is spiritual.

In regards to baptism John the baptist even said

Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

This subject is one that confused men even from the time of Jesus. In John chapter 3 we see this confusion with Nicodemus. Nicodemus relates the comments made by Jesus to those things of this world. Jesus answers him telling him that there is a difference between that which is done of this world and that which is done of the spirit. Verse 5 is a large point of confusion amongst many when Jesus tells Nicodemus that in order to enter the Kingdom of God they must first be born of water and of the spirit. Jesus amplifies on this by telling him that he is not talking of that which is of the flesh but rather that which is of the spirit.

We also see a very clear statement by Peter in 1Peter 3:21 telling us that the baptism that saves us is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh".

Who should you listen to? Listen to the word of God not the word of men that attempt to bring the things of this world back into the requirements of salvation. How do you do that? Just as you have apparently been told before with much prayer but also with much study of the Bible. Yes, some of us do need "guidance" but let it be from God and not from man.

Roger has provided some great advise already.

Always remember that JEsus used some very simple words when it came to salvation.  He referred to it as "everlasting life" and that we will "never" thirst again.

I have merged both of your threads into this one since they are both on the same subject.

As I've already said, yes, it can be very confusing. Keep in mind that even those with a Master of Divinity or any sort of Theologian is not necessarily an "expert" in the word of God. There are many such people that do not even declare Jesus to be who he is.

I have already given you some excellent verses on this subject that should assist you in a proper study of God's word. Do not just take my word for what I've said about this subject. Delve into God's word putting aside man's teachings and study His word with much prayer. He will reveal the truth to you.

When doing so keep in mind the very important idea that this pertains to salvation and there is nothing that man can do to provide for his own salvation. No action of our own provides for salvation, only that which God has done and will do within us gives salvation. We see throughout the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, where men have tried to bring various actions of men into the requirements for salvation and each time they have failed miserably.

Even as the scriptures I have given you states, being baptized in the water of this world only washes away the filth of the flesh. It is nothing more than a public statement of your faith in Jesus Christ. It does nothing for the spiritual part of us. Even Paul said that he was not sent to baptize but rather to preach the good news of salvation. That alone tells us that baptism is not a requirement of salvation or he would have put them together as such.

I will say it again, many times when baptism is mentioned in the Bible it is not speaking of "the putting away of the filth of the flesh" it is speaking of the spiritual. Again I will also state to not just read your Bible on this subject but rather to study it with your heart open to God and not to that of men.

What Roger said.  :)

Roger stressed that you personally should delve into the Word.  And he is correct in that.  Put aside what others have told you because they are but men, and only God speaks when it comes to the Bible. 

When I was but a new Christian I did have some similar concerns.  It is clear though that the Bible teaches that there is no act, other than acceptance, that we can do that can cause us to lose or gain our salvation. 

A wise man once told me in order to study the Bible you have to do a couple of things.  1) forget man.  2) never over complicate the simple stuff, God is not the author of confusion so when it is simple...it is simple. 

And it is simple that keeps me coming back to verses that state we will never thirst again, everlasting life, and those great words that are so small but mean so much.  When it comes to salvation the Bible is clear there as well...it is "by faith" which is not an act in any way shape or form.  So when I see people pull out verses that would indicate works...it is clear that they pull those verse out of context because typically if you read before and after them you see what the speaker was meaning. 

So study.  Read the word.  I can tell you that Roger, BlackEyedPeas, Dreamweaver, and others around here have been around for a long time (some may have even been at the feeding of the 5000 ;)   ) and have studied well.  I have personally had differences of opinions but usually found that they would steer me off into my own study and I would come back more learned and understanding.

That would have meant that we would have seen Jesus face to face. How I wish that were true. Thank God that some day, maybe soon, we will see Him face to face. What a wonderful and glorious day that will be!

Brothers and Sisters,

First, AMEN! to what's already been said. There are many highly detailed and documented threads about baptism from various perspectives already on the forum. Just use the search button with "Baptism" and you'll get so much material that it would take years to study. There are differences on this topic, and that's fine. I'll just repeat what the others have already said. I give thanks for the PERFECT and COMPLETED work of JESUS CHRIST on the CROSS. I also give thanks for the WORK of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD in my heart and in my life. Most of all, I give thanks that GOD extended HIS Grace and Love to me when I deserved absolutely NOTHING but punishment. GOD Loves us, and ONLY HE is worthy for our complete Faith and Trust. All of the GLORY goes to GOD, and none to men - certainly none to me. Our Faith and Trust is in one who never fails and always keeps HIS Promises Perfectly.

I do have some leftover fish and bread from a large gathering.   ;D  You're most welcome to have some.

GOD'S WORD endures forever, and it's the perfect food for our Spirits. It still contains all of the best answers for any problem we might face. If we need encouragement, we can and should study about GOD'S Promises to us and KNOW that we will spend an Eternity of Joy With JESUS CHRIST!


Love In Christ,
Tom




1:  Romans 3:10 NASB  as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

2:  Romans 3:23  NASB  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

3:  Romans 5:12  NASB  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

4:  Romans 6:23  NASB  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

5:  Romans 1:18  NASB  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

6:  Romans 3:20  NASB  because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

7:  Romans 3:27  NASB  Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

8:  Romans 5:8-9  NASB  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

9:  Romans 2:4  NASB  Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

10:  Romans 3:22  NASB  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

11:  Romans 3:28  NASB  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

12:  Romans 10:9  NASB  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

13:  Romans 4:21  NASB  and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

14:  Romans 4:24 NASB  but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

15:  Romans 5:1  NASB  Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

16:  Romans 10:10  NASB  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

17:  Romans 10:13  NASB  for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

You say that nothing we do that can provide for our salvation, and you use this as an indication that baptism is something we do? But isn't repentence and asking Jesus to come into our hearts and be our saviour an act that we do? Isn't Jesus' offer of salvation require an act from us? And why isn't baptism part of that act?

And you continue to quote the verses that sort of indicate what you want to say, but what about the verses in Peter that say eternal life requires belief and baptism. And their are more which I am sure you are aware.

Also, you say listen to God for your answers. How do I know if it is God? How can I discern it is God speaking to me, when there are so many others who believe they have heard God's answer yet those answers differ?

You say baptism isn't necessary, but I am not to listen to you but to God. So if I believe God is telling me baptism is necessary, am I then correct?

Sorry if I seem to doubt, but this has been a big struggle for this new Christian.

This is what I am talking about. You say, "put aside what others have told you," and then you state, "it is clear though that the Bible teaches...." So you want me to listen to your opinion of what the Bible says. 

It is clear to "you" that the Bible says this, but it is apparently not clear to others who believe the opposite.  I actually am starting to lean in the direction of baptism is necessary if it is possible. It is an act of demonstration to the Lord of your repentence and acceptance. I could be wrong, but for you to say, "it is clear," is a false statement. It is apparently not clear or there would be no confusion between Godly men.

Ketch, I will say one more thing on this and then this subject is closed. Many things were given to us as a "shadow of things to come". Confusion comes into the picture when man looks at things through the eyes of this world instead of at those things that are spiritual. Those things that are spiritual are those that are important not those things of this world. It is the baptism of the heart not the putting away of the filth of the flesh that makes us clean.



1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Brothers and Sisters,

I must add some Bible facts that must be considered for EVERY person at the moment of SALVATION.

1 - The person is quickened (translated) into the BODY OF CHRIST.

2 - The ONE Baptism that never fails is the ONE by THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD. At the moment of Salvation, the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD enters the heart of the new believer, takes up residence forever, and SEALS the heart of that new believer - setting that person aside as a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST forever! The SEAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD is also known as an EARNEST of THE PROMISES OF GOD.

3 - One can be baptized in water hundreds of times and never be saved. The BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS ETERNAL AND IS SALVATION 100% OF THE TIME.

4 - Real and Eternal Salvation can be completed by GOD in the middle of the desert hundreds of miles from any water source. Plain water can be NOTHING MORE than symbolism or a testimony before men. Plain water certainly doesn't SAVE, nor does it have anything to do with REAL SALVATION. How about the thief on the CROSS next to JESUS who was saved during his own crucifixion? There was NO water Baptism as men think of water Baptism. See number 5.

5 - Study your Bible and see what you can find out about LIVING WATER, WHERE IT COMES FROM, AND WHAT IT'S CAPABLE OF DOING. Let me help you start answering this QUESTION OF THE GREATEST IMPORTANCE. LIVING WATER certainly doesn't come from any natural water source on this earth (i.e. stream, spring, lake, river, pond, etc., etc., etc.). That's clue #1. Clue #2 is the LIVING WATER is SUPERNATURAL and directly connected to GOD and HIS WORD - the HOLY BIBLE. Clue #3 is the LIVING WATER is ETERNAL. Any fairly good concordance will have a listing for "Living Water". Read the list of Scriptures and know beforehand that you aren't reading about natural water on this earth. See number 6.

6 - GOD has no limits of any kind. GOD has an INFINITE supply of LIVING WATER that is ETERNAL and FROM HIM. GOD'S LIVING WATER ENDURES FOREVER - JUST LIKE HIS WORD! GOD'S LIVING WATER is most definitely SUPERNATURAL, and it can't be bought or earned. The only way to get even a drop of GOD'S LIVING WATER is for GOD to give it to you.

In conclusion, please do a Bible Study on LIVING WATER. It is a most beautiful, precious, and eye-opening Bible FACT that will change your life FOREVER! Here's the last clue:  GOD'S LIVING WATER is most definitely SUPERNATURAL, but it is MORE REAL than any natural source of water. GOD'S LIVING WATER IS NEVER A MIRAGE! FINALLY, GOD'S LIVING WATER IS DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO THE SHED BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST ON THE CROSS. NOTHING IN THE UNIVERSE IS STRONGER THAN THIS WATER AND THIS BLOOD!

Love In Christ,
Tom

Ketch

I will say that you are correct in that the only act a person has to do is the acceptance of Christ.  This is the same across the board and no one is different.  That is why it is left at that.  Anything more than the acceptance of Christ and man will turn it into a boasting contest "I was baptized and you were not..nah nah nah", "I was submerged, you were merely sprinkled...nah nah nah" 

Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
You can clearly see that we are saved through faith.  What is faith?
Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
We see that faith is not an action, but a driving force.  The rest of Hebrews 11 tells us that man of the great names of the Bible did things by faith "By faith Noah", "By faith Moses", etc.  It is their faith or willingness to do the will of God.

Let me ask you something.  If you do something and expect to get something in return what would you call that?  Working for a wage.  You do something and get paid for it in return.  You could get a cookie for your wage, or money, or anything else.  Either way it is a wage.  Romans 6:23 tells us that the wages of sin is death.  We are born sinners and deserve to die.  The rest of that verse tells us something about salvation as well.  The rest of the verse tells us that salvation is a gift from God.  Now you do not have to do anything to receive a gift do you?  (that is except to receive it).  You do not have to act good, because then it would be a reward, you do not have to say 12 hail mary's because then it would be a reward, you do not have to do anything other than accept a gift.

Now let me also ask this of you.  How many people does the New Testament say were baptized after meeting Jesus?  How many were not?
Matt 3 is the story of Jesus coming to John the Baptist.  John says in Matt 3:11 "but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"
Mark 1:8 "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Then when Jesus shows up to be baptized John says in Matt 3:14 "I have need to be baptized of thee"

Look in Matthew 21 where Jesus was being questioned about whose authority he does all these great things.  He replies to them asking  "The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?" (Matt 21:25).  Now the story continues and they do not answer him because they fear the outcomes of the answers.  But the same question could be asked of you.  Did heaven baptize Jesus in the river, or was it a man called John the Baptist?

And you would really think that if getting a water baptism was so important to salvation then Jesus would have been dunking people like it was no tomorrow...the feeding of the 5000 would have been the baptizing of the 5000 in the river.  But what does John 4:2 say? "Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,"  Jesus baptized no one. 

Now those are the important ones in the Gospels.  Notice if you go out and do a search in the gospels for the word "bapti" (leave off the rest so you get baptist, baptize, and any other variation).  You will find many references of John the Baptist.  But you will find little to represent that people went out and took a dip in the river.  You will find discussion of being baptized in the Holy Spirit but that is about it.  There is far more in the Gospels to talk about salvation simply being a free gift from God and the ONLY thing we must do is accept it. 

Now one of the verses for the baptism is important crowd to use is
Mark 16:16 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
but when you put it in the light of all of the other teachings the meaning of baptism here is the baptism by the Holy Ghost, not a physical baptism by water.

Even carrying on into Acts 1:5 we see reference to a baptism by water and the Holy Ghost are different and emphasis on the Holy Ghost being the important one.
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Look at 1 Corinthians Chapter 1 and you can see that they struggled with the same thoughts, that baptism was a saving quality.  They began to boast on who baptized them.  Paul writes in vs 13"Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"  This is to bring home the importance that it is Christ who died for us.  It is the the Holy Spirit that baptizes us and not a matter of what preacher dunked us. 

Later in 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 Paul brings that point home "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

There is no denying that the Bible does speak of a water baptism.  But the Bible is also very clear by word (some above) and by deeds that salvation is by baptism of the Holy Ghost and not of a water baptism.  The Bible tells us many times that baptism by the Holy Ghost is what Jesus is going bring.  And that it was this baptism of the HOly Ghost that was important to salvation.  Jesus baptized no one, if it were so vitally important you would think that He would have baptized John the Baptist at least.

So with all of that in mind you have to read the Bible with what is clear.  There are other verses that speak of water baptism and there are others that are not read properly.  "Believe and be baptized" is often one that is used.  Understand that this is speaking of having a belief in Jesus, and being baptized by the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is what comes and baptizes us, washes us clean, spiritually. 

Ketch I do hope that helps some.  Never over read what is in the Bible.  Start off simple and take it for what it says.  God does not want confusion, did not create the confusion, or anything of that nature.  And the more you study the more it will become clear what is written.  And this is simply because you get more familiar with the verses, it is not that God made it hard.

You are right in that there are many people out there that believe in water salvation as an absolute need for salvation.  And I pray that someone picks up their Bible and reads more.  There are no contradictions in the Bible, only misunderstandings.  And if you read something and it is simple "Thou shalt not pick your nose."  Well that is simple...it does not mean you should not unless you are standing on your head, or maybe driving down the road in the safety of your car...it is a simple statement and if you read something later that appears to contradict that...then you misread the later because the complex verses should only be read in light of the simpler ones.