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Hi to All,

Part 1

I'm new here and have read some posts on the "rapture". Someone once said...."Get two Jews together, and you'll get three opinions". So goes the rapture doctrine. The views vary from pretrib, midtrib, postrib and some say No rapture at all because the word "rapture" is not in the Bible. For the most part, this true as far as semantics goes. The word is Latin but it's counterpart in the Grk of the NT is "harpazo". Literally it means to catch up or away. This the phrase Paul uses in 1 Thess 4. Harpazo is used in other places in the NT, so it is not an isolated term in Paul's letter as we will see later in this study.

A good point to understand, and remember, is that God's Word has explicit or explained truth as well as implicit or implied truth. So to say that the word "rapture" is not in the Bible, does not mean that it's meaning is not implied in Paul's phrase....."caught up".

Another point to help our understanding of this term, is to look at the word rapture as simply a vehicle like a plane, train or autombile. When you go on vacation, you will leave point A and travel to point B, or your destination. So your car was the "vehicle" or means for you to travel. Let's look at the rapture the same way.....it is the vehicle to gather us together to meet Christ. So the emphasis is getting to the Who, Christ, and not by the what, rapture or "catching up". If we see it this way, then the debate on the word disappears for we are going to be gathered (by rapture) to meet Christ in the air.

Now I ask you to be patient with me, for this study is a little long. Read it at least twice. If you disagree with what it teaches, we can take up those issues in your replies. I am open to critique for "we all still see thru a glass darkly".

Be Blessed,
choobaca

Con't pt 2

Con't from Pt 1

1 THESS 4

The Thessalonian letters picture the times as they will be when God brings His plan to completion with Jesus' second advent. In this overview, we'll attempt to show that both letters definitely point to the posttribulational return of Christ.

Looking at these two letters, we will begin with 1 Thessalonians 4 and study only those verses which contribute to our understanding of the second advent. Although the first three chapters of 1 Thessalonians contain isolated verses pertaining to Jesus' return, we will comment on them as we join them to the main doctrine of chapters 4 and 5. These isolated texts are 1:10, 2:12, and 3:13.

A Descent To The Earth

Pretribulationism rejects the belief that the Church will be present on earth during the Tribulation because that would mean that the Church will experience the wrath of God poured out on the world. The doctrine proposes that the Church must be "taken up" before that time, as Scripture is clear that we are destined not for wrath, but for salvation. It is true that when the victorious Lamb of God descends, God's wrath will be poured out on the world. So what about the Church? Later, we'll discuss in fine detail exactly why we won't experience God's wrath. But here we want to find out what does happen to the Church as Christ returns. To do so, let's look at some key words in 1 Thessalonians 4:13 18:

VERSE 13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

In verse 13, Paul states the purpose of his letter. The reason Paul wrote this chapter was because of the ignorance of the Thessalonians as to when the dead would be raised. At some previous time (see 1 Thess. 5:1), Paul had told them about the glorious coming of the Lord and the signs that would signal that coming. Apparently he had either neglected to tell them about when the dead would be raised, or they didn't understand what he'd said. Now the Thessalonians had a question: would Christians who had already died miss out on this glorious Day that Paul had told them about? This concern had most likely filtered down to a depth of self concern as well: if they themselves died before the Lord returned, would they be denied the opportunity to witness that return? Chapter 4 responds to this concern by giving necessary details about the resurrection of the dead saints. The Thessalonians had the hope of resurrection into glory, but they didn't know its timing. This lack of information was causing them grief.

VERSE 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Paul tells the Church that if they believe as truth that Jesus died and rose, then they should also believe as truth what he is about to tell them: those who have died will return with Jesus at that time. Paul is differentiating here between the living and the dead who will return with Jesus; it is the spirits of "those who have fallen asleep" who will return with Him.

VERSE 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul begins to tell the Thessalonians that not only will the dead saints take part in the glorious coming of Christ, but they will be raised from the dead just before the living saints are changed. Paul used the words of Jesus Himself as his authority to speak in this manner. "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord" refers not to a current word given to him, but to words that Jesus Himself had spoken while on earth. He was most likely referring to what Jesus said in John 11:21 27.

In this chapter of John, Martha tells the Lord that if He had been there, her brother Lazarus would not have died. He replies, "Thy brother shall rise again." Martha answers, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus' next words, scholars believe, are most likely the "word of the Lord" by which Paul was speaking. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live." (To the dead saints, Jesus will come back as the Resurrection: "the dead in Christ shall rise first"   1 Thess. 4:16.) Jesus continues, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die." (To the living saints, Jesus comes back as the Life, changing the saints who remain alive on the earth until then.) " Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [be changed, "never die"]"   1 Thess. 4:17).

Con't Pt 3

Part Three

We should note that Martha knew Lazarus would be raised on "the last day," the day Jesus refers to when He calls Himself the Resurrection to the dead saints and the Life to those who remain until He comes. Now, the doctrine of pretribulationism teaches that the resurrection happens in four phases: the resurrection of Jesus (phase 1), the resurrection of the dead saints at the pretribulational rapture (phase 2), the resurrection of Lazarus and the rest of Israel occurring after the Tribulation (phase 3), and the resurrection of the unbelievers after the millennial reign (phase 4). But by referring to Jesus' own words, Paul places the raising of all the dead saints after the Tribulation on the last day of this age.

VERSE 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

VERSE 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This verse brings full comfort to the Thessalonians. When the dead are raised, then the saints who are alive, who are left, are caught up to be with them; not one member of the Church, be he dead or alive at the time, will miss the great Day of the Lord.

Meeting Jesus In His Descent

Pretribulationists picture Jesus descending in the clouds, meeting the saints in the air, and returning with them to heaven for seven years (the time of Tribulation on earth.) But what is crucial to the posttribulational point of view is knowing where Christ's descent takes Him. We open this discussion with a quote from Bob Gundry:

"Other things being equal, the word 'descend' . . . indicates a complete, uninterrupted descent, like that of the Spirit at Christ's baptism (Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32,33) and that of Christ in His first advent (John 3:13; 6:33,38,41,42,50,51,58). Where a reversal from downward to upward motion comes into view, a specific statement to that effect appears, as in Acts 10:11, 16 ('a certain object coming down, . . . and immediately the object was taken up into the sky'). In the absence of a statement indicating a halt or a sudden reversal of direction, we naturally infer a complete descent to the earth, such as will take place only at the posttribulational advent" (1).
Let's look at two of Gundry's scripture references: Matthew 3:16 and Acts 10:11,16:

16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, . . . the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him (Matt. 3).
 
There is no mention of the Spirit reversing direction. Therefore He descended all the way down to the earth. We know that after He descended, He remained to empower Jesus' ministry.

In Acts 10:11,16 we read of Peter's seeing a sheet descend from heaven:

11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth. . . . This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven (Acts 10).
If Luke did not specifically state that the sheet was immediately taken up into the sky, we could infer that it remained. The words "let down" (same as "descend" in the Greek) and "received up again" in this verse clarify that there was a change of direction.

In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, there is nothing to indicate that Jesus reverses direction in His descent, or that He returns to heaven, or that He stops half way down, or that He stays in the air for seven years. The Lord will "descend"   meaning all the way down to the earth. As we will see in the next verse, the word "meet" will give ample support to this interpretation of the word "descend." But some teachers, such as Hal Lindsey, would not agree. He wrote,

"It's obvious from these verses [1 Thess. 4:15 17] and from others that Paul predicts a time when Jesus will raise the bodies of dead believers and simultaneously change living believers to immortals. The word for 'caught up' actually means to 'snatch up,' and that's why I like to call this marvelous coming event 'The Great Snatch'! It's usually referred to as the 'Rapture,' from the Latin word rapare, which means to 'take away' or 'snatch out.'
"Why would Jesus promise that a special group of His people would be taken from earth to heaven without first dying as millions of other believers have done? The simple, wonderful answer is that they will be alive when God's striving with rebellious men turns into an avalanche of judgement upon the Christ rejecting world and Satan himself   a judgement so terrible that God isn't going to let His Church go through it. This Tribulation isn't for God's people, but for those who have rejected His salvation" (2).

However, the words Paul uses in 1 Thessalonians 4 show our immediate destination is not heaven, but elsewhere. Scripture always states the place one is "caught up" to. For example, after being baptized by Philip, "the eunuch saw him no more" because "the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip [caught up]" and "Philip was found at Azotus" (Acts 8:38 40).

In another example, Scripture again names the destination of the one "caught up." Paul said he "knew a man in Christ [who was] caught up to the third heaven", and this man "was caught up into paradise" (2 Cor. 12:2 4).

Con't

Part Four

The same Greek word for "caught up" (harpazo)is used in all three instances, and the destination in each case is stated; Gundry says the Greek language demands it. So what is the destination named for the raised and caught up saints in verse 17? Remembering that "descend" infers Jesus' total descent to the earth, we make these three points:

1. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not name heaven as our destination after we meet the Lord in the air.

2. However, it does tell us where we are caught up to: "Then we . . . shall be caught up together with them [the raised saints] in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air . . ." (1 Thess. 4:17).

3. Air: "signifies the atmosphere. . . I Thess. 4:17" (3).

As Christ descends, the saints who are alive will be changed and caught up with the raised saints. Their destination at this point is not heaven or earth, but the clouds in the air. All the saints are now being either raised or changed, and then caught up together in the clouds where they all meet the Lord in the air. This description of Jesus' coming on the clouds of the sky is seen elsewhere in Scripture:

9: And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10: And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11: Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.(Acts 1).

30: They shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory (Mt. 24).

7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him (Rev. 1).

So after being caught up, our immediate destination is the clouds of this earth's atmosphere, not heaven or earth. But then where do we go? Remembering that the word "descend" indicates Jesus' total descent to the earth, "meet" shows that we immediately return to the earth with the Lord as He completes His descent. How do we arrive at this as Jesus' destination? By the meaning of the Greek word translated "meet", the word being found in only three instances in Scripture, thus clarifying the true meaning of the word. It means this:

"When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apantesis" (4).

Gundry adds this to the above comment:
"This connotation points toward our rising to meet Christ in order to escort Him immediately back to earth" (5).

W. E. Vine provides us with the following:

"It seems that the special idea of the word was the official welcome of a newly arrived dignitary" (6).
In Acts 28:15 16, this word was used to describe Paul's arrival in Rome after being met by a group of Christians who'd gone out from there:

15: And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: . . .
16: And when we came to Rome, . . .(Acts 28).
On his way to Rome, Paul was met by brothers from Rome who'd heard he was drawing near to their city and gone out to meet him. After going out to "meet" Paul, they reversed their direction and personally escorted him into Rome. Notice that they did not escort Paul back to where he had come from; Paul did not reverse direction. The actions of the Roman Christians perfectly describes the meaning of the word translated "meet."

The second occurrence of this word is in the parables of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1 13. We quote only verses 6 7,10

6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. . . .
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut (Matt. 25).
 
The "cry" ["shout," NIV] in verse 6 parallels the shout announcing Jesus' coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. In the parable, the virgins are commanded to come out to "meet" the bridegroom. The wise virgins leave to meet Him as the unwise virgins go off to find oil. This same meaning of "meet" is seen in the wise virgins' returning with the bridegroom; they've escorted Him back to the place from which they came.

The last time this particular word translated "meet" is used is in our verse from Thessalonians. The entire body of Christ from both testaments meets the Lord in the air, reverses their direction and escorts Him back to earth to begin the millennial reign. By definition and example from Scripture, we now have a full picture of the meaning of this word. It can be summed up by this description:

1. A traveler is heading in a particular direction in order to arrive at a designated place.

2. The people residing in that place go out to meet him.

3. When they meet the traveler, they do not escort him back to the place he came from. They turn around and escort him back to where they came from.

Therefore, we could paraphrase verse 17 in this way:

"Then we who are changed shall be caught up in the clouds, together with those who were raised from the dead, to meet the Lord in the air, and as He continues His descent, we shall escort Him back to the earth from which we came, and thus we will always be with the Lord" (1 Thess. 4 paraphrase).

Returning to the last phrase of this verse, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord," we can ask ourselves, "Where will we ever be with the Lord? Is a particular place indicated here? If we return to heaven, will we ever be there with the Lord? If we stay in the air with the Lord, will we stay there forever? If we return to earth with the Lord, will we stay there forever?" We must see that Paul didn't intend to describe a particular eternal destination here. He meant only what he wrote: we will ever be with the Lord.

Looking for a moment at a related verse from chapter 3, notice how the sense of a posttribulation gathering is again supported:

13: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints (1 Thess. 3).
Some use this verse to assert that the entire Church must have been raptured prior to Jesus' coming, in order for it to return WITH Him as one body, but this isn't a valid point. Instead, we can now understand that Jesus returns WITH the spirits of the dead saints in order to raise their bodies, and He comes FOR the living saints, in order to establish His kingdom on earth. After being gathered, all the saints are in the clouds with Jesus, and can return WITH Him.

Paul's Words Of Comfort

VERSE 18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In this final verse, Paul speaks from his strong conviction that the truth comforts. He's assured the Thessalonians that, living or dead, no one will miss out on the glorious end that the Lord has planned from the beginning. The Church now has the full picture of the events that will occur in the Day of the Lord; they are no longer ignorant about the resurrection and its place in that Day. Because they've heard the truth, they can accept that comfort and grow in it.

Gathering the results of our study to this point, we can see that at the one second coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,

1. Christ descends from heaven, having with Him the spirits of the dead saints.

2. As He descends, the dead saints are raised and the living saints changed, and He gathers all the saints to be with Him in the clouds.

3. The newly raised saints and changed saints now turn around and all the saints escort Jesus back to the earth to begin His millennial reign.

For an Old Testament text as to where Jesus will touch down when we are gathered, see: Zec 14
 
"Study to show yourself approved unto God"

Be Blessed,
Choobaca (Frank)

Bull

The Crusader

choobaca: confuzzzzing zstuff...   what are you trying to convey to me/us ?

Wow, did you take the time to write all this or is it cut and pasted? If so what is the site address? I didn't catch any references.

Hmm, I'm not sure I follow this line of teaching there Choobaca.

I find it hard to place this verse in your line of thinking.

Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.
(MKJV)

This deffinately sounds like an un-earthly place to me.

Concerning the 10 Virgins parable.  From traditional Hebrew weddings, we know that the bridgroom comes to retrieve the bride and bring her back to the fathers house, where the bridgroom has prepared a room for he and his bride in his fathers house.  The bride goes out to meet him in the street at his arrival, and GOES with him back to the fathers house.  Not escort him into her house.  He waits for her our in the street.

Another thing that comes to mind are the numerous verses in Revelation that speak of those in heaven, some on thrones, some wearing crowns, wearing white robes that are cleaned and spotless.  Never seen in scripture where Angels are described have washed robes.  In chapter 19 we see the armies of heaven returning with Christ again wearing fine linen white and clean.  Again an indication of believers who have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb.   How do you explain these verses if we go up into the clouds and immediately return to earth to reign with Christ on earth?   Where are the mansions in heaven?  Who are these people John see's in heaven with washed robes during much of Revelation?

Luk 21:34  And take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts are weighed down with headaches and drinking and anxieties of this life; and that day should suddenly come on you;
(describing times just as things were in Noahs day)

Luk 21:35  for it shall come as a snare on all those sitting on the face of the whole earth.
(ALL SITTING ON THE EARTH)

Luk 21:36  Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of Man.
(MKJV)

Counted worthy to escape!  AND  stand before the Son of Man.  Where is the Son of Man that we may stand before him?   Doesn't sound like earth where all those who didn't escape and are sitting earth whilest those who did escape are standing before the Son Of Man somewhere else.

Clearly difficult to squeeze these verses into a post-trib rapture, snatching away, or whatever you would like to call it.

All said in Love my brother, I just don't see it the way you describe.

Grace and Peace!

Hi Cru,

Thx for the gracious welcome and your really nice and concise commentary.

I'm sure the "Bull" you used is short for

"Bullseye" or "A Okay" or "right on" etc etc.....Right??

Or maybe it is short for "Bullwinkle" or "Woolybully" or "Where's the beef" or "MAD COW DISEASE"
LOL.

Peace,
Your Brother Frank

PS Hint....If you seriously want to critique , refute or discuss what someone posts, do it with chapter and verse from God's Word. That will always level the playing field!
It's okay to disagree, but let's always seek for unity and not division. "Iron sharpeneth iron as one man sharpeneth another"

Hi Two,

I'm trying to convey that the rapture is doctrinal and it is sequential with the resurrection of the "dead in Christ" and those that are alive and remain". And it happens at what we call the Second Coming which is "immediately after the tribulation of those days". It also follows with "The Day of the Lord per 1 Thess 5:1.

Hope this helps. If you have a particular question on any portion of what I posted, say on. You do not have to agree, but at least you know that I believe the Coming of the Lord is "postribulational" and no one on "Church ground will be left behind.

Be Blessed,
Frank

Yes, this is a study I did a long time ago. Much has been gleaned from some good authors on the subject.I have been in Christ for about 30 plus years. When I first came to the Lord in the early seventies, I believed in a "pretrib rapture", but as I studied the Word more deeply, I came to  believe in the "postrib" view.

So I did cut and paste, but from my own gathering  thru the years. If you would like to get into it on a one on one, just email me.

pilgrom2@rochester.rr.com.

In His Service,
Frank

Hello Frank!

That was an excellent presentation, and if I were using one word to describe it, it would not be "bull", but "truth".


The Bible is particularly clear that the church, the body of believers will be spared the wrath of God.  It isn't in just one passage but throughout the Old and New Testament.  

I must be one sick puppy, because it all made sense to me.   ;D


I particulally like it when biblical passages fall right into place.



Ac 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Lu 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


But the second advent of Christ... that isn't on a cloud...

Re 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

~serapha~

Serapha wrote...

Hello Frank!

That was an excellent presentation, and if I were using one word to describe it, it would not be "bull", but "truth".


The Bible is particularly clear that the church, the body of believers will be spared the wrath of God.  It isn't in just one passage but throughout the Old and New Testament.  

I must be one sick puppy, because it all made sense to me.   ;D


I particulally like it when biblical passages fall right into place.

Ac 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Lu 21:27
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


But the second advent of Christ... that isn't on a cloud...

Re 19:11
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

~serapha~

***********************************************************

Hi Serapha,

Thx for the kind words. To Him be the Glory. I thank God that there are saints here that Love God's Word as I do.

Be Blessed,
Frank

PS read the posts from 2nd Tim and myself.

I still do not interprit this as you have shown Choobaca.  

Jesus told his deciples he was going away, and that they could not follow where he was going.  He was going back to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father, where the father dwells.  Granted he had not been crucified yet, but after he had been, we did not dwell with him, he dwells with us.

Eph 3:17
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; [...]
(KJV)

Joh 14:2  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, so that where I am, you may be also.

IN his fathers house.  Not where we are that he may be.

John 13:1
1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
(KJV)

Again clearly a place out of this world.  While mansion is only used in this place, and is the same greek used as abode in John 14:23 you have to really stretch these verses to mean abodes in individuals hearts rather than where heaven is and where the Father resides.  Yes it is a spiritual place, but before Christ died, it was still a place.  Where did the father reside before he resided in our hearts?  In heaven!  Jesus ascended into heaven in a cloud to sit at the right hand of the father.   When he returns he will receive us to himself that we may be where he IS, in his fathers house where he has gone to prepare a place for us.   To me it reads very easily.  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this point.


Compare Rom 6:5.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Future tense!  While spiritually we accept it, it has not happened yet.  

Compare set Him, Eph 1:20.
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Together in Eph 2:6 is ambiguous.  Render with Him, as Rev. “Even now we sit there in Him, and shall sit with Him in the end”  (taken from Vincents word studies)

Also
Rev 3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

We are not sitting with him on the throne just yet, although we are garenteed a joint seat with him when he receives us to himself.


You are making my head hurt here...lol


Acts 1:8-11 to me clearly shows where the Son will return in a like manner that he left to collect his bride.  I really don't know what to say here.  I have never heard anyone hyper spiritulize things as you have with these verses.  Sorry to disagree with you here, but I do.

Grace and Peace!

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.

While I agree the this text does not say he goes back into heaven, it also does not say he comes all the way down to earth and touch the Mnt of Olives here as you seem to include.  While you tie Zech 14:4 into 1 Th 4:16-17 one could just as easily tie John 14:3.  This really depends on whether you aproach these verses with a pre-trib or post trib disposition.  As for the foolish vigins knocking on the door of heaven.   In Revelation Jesus says that HE stands at the door and knocks, any one who hears his voice and opens the door, he will come in and sup with him.   Oddly here, the foolish virgins who attempted to be religious with their outward religious showing of God (lamps without oil) will now be knocking on the doors of heaven and not be received.  

The word "door" =
strongs
thura
thoo'-rah
Apparently a primary word (compare “door”); a portal or entrance (the opening or the closure, literally or figuratively): - door, gate.

Is closed.  There will by much knocking and prayer after the fact I assure you.   Not litterally on heavens door, but through prayer and pleading.   But that portal is opened and closed in the twinkling of an eye.  Only those who have oil (holy spirit) in their lamps will be changed and pass through the door.  The rest will face matyrdom to obtain their salvation.

I have always said there is enough scripture in the Bible to make a an argument for both views.  IMHO, scripture for pre-trib, and Gods known Character from early times of judgment seem to make a better argument for a pre-trib view.

Just like you, my feelings will not be harmed if you or anyone else disagree's, and I would not force anyone to take my view either.   It will happen just as Gods plan is intended to happen.  

The important thing is that we place our faith in Jesus Christ, the lamb that took our place on the mercy seat to satisfy Gods Judgment and Righteousness in our stead.

Grace and Peace!

Hi choobaca,

First of all welcome to this part of the forum. :) Do not be alarmed at the critique some utter in regards to your (or anyone's) stance in Christ. I know a lot of forums but this one is the most open I've found until this day, and such short answers are one of the backsides of the openness.

In an answer to your invitation I would like to ask if you see the rapture and the second coming as the same event ?

For even though those 2 events are prone to be fullfilled in and around the same time, they are two separate events and the separation can be seen by the following signs:
- the separation of the following Jewish Feasts by 7-9 days :
     Rosh Hashana (an idiom for the rapture or: "no one knows the day or the hour" )
     Yom Kippur or: "the Day of Atonement" wich is an idiom for the Second Coming

- the Wrath : we as a nation of believing christians and jews alike are not appointed to wrath, so the wrath will not be for us; the Rapture will occur before the wrath; as we had faith. This is in my view not a guarantee that 'we' will not see the Trib, as most of the wrath occurs at the end of the Trib.....

The doctrine that places the Second Coming and the Rapture for the believing Church in one point in time came from 17th century Calvin I believe, and even though no one in the 17th century would live to see the day (other then in a resurrecton) this view is by todays standards obsoleted and has been reproven time-and-again.

But they are really 2 separate events. Even though they could be fullfilled days up to a few years after one another....  

Note: The Second Coming will also cause another rapture or "resurrection order" , but this is not the rapture of the believing church but the rapture of the trib saints and the remnant of Israel.

choobaca,

Welcome to the forum.

I read the entire study you shared, and enjoyed it, and found it very interesting, especially since this is one of the subjects, which is not understood definitively by the church, some believe they have it down pat, I know better having studied the scriptures for many years.

I am wondering if you are from brethern background?

There are some good passages with some good material given which we can chew on.

I do not find the explanation given to some of these verse, far fetched at all, since I see problems with the pre and mid trib point of view, and I do lean toward the post trib rapture , which I like to describe a pre wrath.

And the verse presented in opposition are not insurmountable with this view point.

For instance The scripture tells us that we will be kept from the hour of wrath, but not tribulation, in fact Jesus said it clearly;  

 In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. (Jhn 16:33)

The Lords prayer ends with these words;

And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

God does not tempt anyone, He tries them, but not with evil.

The apostle goes on to write;

Rom 5
5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4  And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

And then Brother James says;


James 3
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Jesus said;

Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

And to the church to the angel of the chuch at Philadelphia he says;

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Rev 3:10)

There is nothing in these verse that say He will remove us during the our of temptation that visits and tries those who live of the earth all.

His wrath is that which we are promised to kept from, and it  is confused with tribulation, especially the great tribulation, the wrath of God (of the Lamb), begins with Jesus' return to the earth, this is what is referred to as "The Day of the Lord"
it is clearly a day of wrath(Zeph 1:15) and it begins on a litteral day at its begining in the evening, when there is neither light nor day and His return at the end of the Great Tribulation, which days are shortened for the sake of the  elects Mat 24:22.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Lk 22:37

Will be a reality in that day of resurrection at His return, to them that sleep, live, believe in Christ (Jhn 11:25-26)

And it is clear in Revelation all the wrath which is of God is poured upon the earth and its inhabitants after His return to earth at Rev 6:16-17.  Above all else we see, the wrath of the serpent being excersized by the serpent and his host upon the whole earth..

While some things are clear others are not, but that does not mean one should give up hope, and not continue seeking Gods will, I know His will is for us not to be caught unawares, that the day not come upojn us as a snare, this clear.

I say watch and pray..without ceasing..


God Bless,

Petro

Petro,

You and I have discussed this topic on length on another thread.  I was pondering your last post and have a few questions I would like to hear your thoughts on.


While there is a time such as the world has never seen coming in the future, this seems to imply that only those believers at THAT time will face tribulation.   The previous verses seem to be speaking of daily trials and tribulation.

bear with me...


Plural...not that this couldn't include the great tribulation or the period of great tribulation...but still seems to be speaking of daily tribulations


Keep in mind that this hour of tribulation is not the same as tribulations mentioned above.  This is an hour of emmence tribulation that will come over those who live on the earth.  While there is not text that says He will remove anyone, it does say that he will keep this particular church from the hour of temptation that is going to happen to them who live on the earth.  Will he stop time for this church only?  Not that he couldn't...after all He is God, but it doesnt seem a far stretch to say here...

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. Lk 22:37

While tribulation trys all believers daily, it seems odd to suggest that, that part of the bride who dwells on the earth during this time (not asleep or dead) would require emmence tribulation.   I suppose one could say that faith may be lacking the most during this time, which I think I could accept.  I do find verses that could agree with this.

Please expand a little more on this if you can.

Grace and Peace!

More thoughts about post trib view.

Thinking about the parable of the 10 Virgins a bit more.   Clearly this is speaking of a group of people that will miss an event which joins the groom and the bride.  In Coobaca's post he says that he does not see how these indviduals can come to heavens door to knock and be turned away.   I have expanded on this in a previous post, but another question that comes to mind now is, if this event is post trib, why would these individuals need to seek out the Lord, when those who are not part of the bride will be confronted with the Lord and his mighty army to be destroyed?   Seems to fit easier with being left behind, and seeking for salvation through prayer and tears wanting to be in heaven, but rather now, being forced to endure the times at hand.

Another question.

If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and destroy all the unbelievers as proposed by a post trib view, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium?   Who are those people who live outside the New Jerusalem during the Millennium?   In a post trib event, everyone who is caught up to be with the Lord, are the faithful ones, everyone left behind is not and are destroyed after the suggested U-turn.   Applying a pre or even mid trib view allows for souls to be saved through matyrdom as well a few who will survive who would not receive immortality which would account for those who live and die during the thousand years of Christ reign on the earth.

Just a few random thoughts on some of what has been discussed here.

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

I said before one cannot discuss the rapture unless they define who the saints are.

Are the saints the same as the elect??

If there were more scriptures that spoke clearly concerning these things, it might shed lite on the thought, which has become a teaching, that;  "that the church will not face tribulation, because they will be raptured."

But unfortunately we have to work with what we have;, and it is clear Christians will be living and dieing during the great tribulation on the earth.  Are they Saints??  

How do they differ from the Elect??, if they are not one in the same.

This is one of the problems I have with the pre, mid  trib rature teaching.

The church which is made up of the elect is divided (by pre tribr's)into those that suffer great tribulation unto death while others don't, and then if you follow the teaching further there is this teaching which goes on to teach those raptured will be married as the bride of Christ while the rest of the brethern are left behind in Great Tribulation on the earth, being persecuted and murdered for their faith in the Groom, who is enjoying His wedding feats.

Somehow this doesn't sound right.

Now, If Abraham,Isaac,Joseph, Moses,  David,  are not a part of the Bride of Christ the church, then there might something to this but, we read at;

Heb 11
39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Although the scripture says, that Jesus has perfected forever them He sanctified by one offering (Heb 10:14), this does not mean we are perfect yet, if we live in Christ subjected to the Spirit, we can live a perfect life before Him in love, however, this perfection seems to me, comes when there is that perfect union of the Body of Christ, and if all these who are being perfected during the Great Tribulation are on the earth, their can not be a union of perfection, simply because some are lacking to be brought into the body, God only had one Son, and His body is the church .(Col1:24)

Then there is the multitude who are given white robes (vs 11), at Rev 6:9-11 revealed when the fifth seal is opened, these are defined as a great multitude at Rev 7:9 which no one could number clothed in white robes, identified as those "brethren, that should be killed"  at(Rev 6:11), and "came out of great tribulation", (Rev 7:13-14)

Now, if these are not the same group, what scriptures would you rely on to dispute this??

At Rev 6:12, the sixth seal is opened, and clearly this is the begining of a great day of wrath, and it is on the earth as men hide themselves from he wrath of the Lamb. (vs's 15-16)

Now where is Jesus at this time?  

And where is the rapture in relation to these seals??

Now continue reading and at Rev 7, it says; After these things, ............................what things??

All of those things of Chap 6 of Rev.





Plural...not that this couldn't include the great tribulation or the period of great tribulation...but still seems to be speaking of daily tribulations[/quote

Tribulations come in all diferent sorts of ways, they are simply tribulations, the great tribulation is defined as

"such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

And no matter what is said about it, it is clear Christians go thru it.


Keep in mind that this hour of tribulation is not the same as tribulations mentioned above.  This is an hour of emmence tribulation that will come over those who live on the earth.  While there is not text that says He will remove anyone, it does say that he will keep this particular church from the hour of temptation that is going to happen to them who live on the earth.

Well I see Mat 24:21 as being indispensibly linked with;

 Rev 3
10  Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Somehow, I see the same language here as at Mat 24:21, and this hour is not the great tribulation but the hour of His wrath on the earth (there is another day of wrath, but those who have been sealed by His Spirit are presently delivered from that wrath, seeing their names are written in the Lambs Book of Life) .  

The pouring out of Gods wrath at Jesus return, lasts an hour of a day, if the Lords Day is the equivalence 1000 year reign on the earth, what is one hour?? equivalent to.

Now  look at this verse closely;

Mat 24
21  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

In the lite of Rev 3:10, focusing on the words "dwell  upon the earth."

Makes it plain that the hour of temptation (is a day of wrath at the begining of His return)

If the rapture imdeately precedes the begining of the hour of His Temptation, this would explain, how believers are not dwelling on the earth at this time,

As for the great tribulation, my contention is that great Tribulation is not His day of wrath being poured out on the iinhabitants who dwell on the earth. Even though the Great Tribulation affects all.

This may be where the confusion lies.

When God pours out his wrath  upon the earth, must Jesus be present in bodily form??  I simply don't know?

How is this that far fetched, there are thinghs we understand and there are things we do not understand totally.

I just see all who are saved as saints and the church, and the elect, what I don't see is this division, some being the church other not being the church.


Blessings,

Petro


PS, I will look at the rest of your post later...

And I have heard the argument that goes soemthing like,

How can the groom beat up the bride before the marriage celebration?

This argument doesn't hold any water, if those dressed in white robes who came out of the great tribulation of Rev 6 & 7 are part of the church.

Twobombs,

I tend to agree that the catching away of believers and the Return of the Lord to earth are two separate events.   Matthew 25:13 Jesus says he will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27).  From this we know the exact day of the beginning, mid and ending of the tribulation period.

I cannot find a way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here.
1. The rapture of the Church at an unknown time.
and
2. The return of Jesus to the earth at the mount of Olives at the end of the period.

I still agree that God can and will do as he pleases, but with Daniel and Revelation one can clearly mark 3 points during this 7 year period.  The only point during this period that allows for not knowing the day nor the hour is at the beginning, which could be anytime, requiring us to watch.  Anytime after the covenant is signed, anyone with a bible can count down the days to wrath, and glorious return of the Lion with fire in his eyes.

Immimency scripture forewarning us to be ready, along with keeping us from the hour (or escape), the blessed hope, God's preference for removing his people before dishing out Judgment, the unlikely need for a ready and waiting bride to be beaten up and tested when Christ has already taken our punishment on the cross, just does not make any sense to me.

Of course, not my wisdom, but Gods.  He will do just as he has it planned.  Maybe I am stretching scripture to make sense of it all?  While I can't find one verse that says it must happen before the 7 year period starts, I can find many that point to that possibility if not probability that it will.

Grace and Peace!

I say define Saints, and the Elect, are they two different peoples, or one?



This problem is worse than the neat fit, of the ten virgins, you mention, since the pre trib version leaves out the 1000 year reign of Jesus on the earth. And clearly there is more evidence for a millenial reign than what can be ascertained from  the parable of the 10 virgins.

You can see that unless you define whether the elect/saints are not part of the church no wedding feast can be held,  if they are,  

How do you reconcile the pre trib teaching to Rev 19:7-9

While conceding the parable of the 10 virgins is preplexing I would not discount the millenial reign based on this parable.


Blessings,
Petro

2 d Tim,

All I know is that while He was destroying the world in water the first time, Noah slept at night right thru the tribulation the entire world was experiencing, yet one can hardly say it didn't affect him, but God preserved these eight souls during this judgement.

Actually what you say "what seems odd",  is exactly what you believe if, you believe the pre trib,

you said;

(quote)While tribulation trys all believers daily, it seems odd to suggest that, that part of the bride who dwells on the earth during this time (not asleep or dead) would require emmence tribulation(/quote)

Unless you do believe, those saints (Rev 13:7) left behind are not the church body of the Lord..

See, I do not have a problem accepting Christians being taken by wicked hands and slain, for their faith in God, (I read Rev 13:7 and see Saints are not only being overcome for their faith in Jesus, but killed on the earth, supposedly after the rapture (according to pretrib teaching) isn't this the reason why Jesus was murdered, but God used this as a human sacrifice for the sins of His people.



Jesus,  even taught, the multitudes;  

11  11  Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

And to His disciples He still says;

Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Mat 5:11


 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
  For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
  Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
  Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.  Mk 8:35

In my opinion it is almost blasphemous to call God unjust because he dare beat the bride up before the wedding .

In this generation we all have been born into and have lived in a period of practicaly no sacrifcial effort, there is not one of us who can cliam we have resisted evil unto shedding of blood, if we are honest with ourselves, we would admit we have the best of both kingdoms, the kingdom of God and the kingdom of the evil one.

Yet we almost complain at the slightest insinuation of being left to expereince tribulation, when he hasn't promised nothing of the sort to keep us from it, by accusing Him.

God forgive us..

Blessings,

Petro

I see see gatherings of Saints in heaven throughout earlier verses in Revelation.  If you read further down in ch 19-11 you will note that after the wedding and supper in heaven, then, heaven is opened up and and the Lord and his army are seen coming to smite the earth, and throw the beast and the false prophet into the lake of fire.  Hard to conceive a wedding in heaven without previously retrieving a bride.  You will note that it makes mention of THOSE who were deceived and THOSE who took the mark of the beast.  It seems SOME will not take the mark or worship the beast.  If this were not the case, why didn't John just write everyone on the earth?  

Chapter 20 then says...
Rev 20:3  And he cast him into the abyss and shut him up and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled. And after that he must be loosed a little time.

What nations?  Wasn't everyone either changed or destroyed?   Must be something missing here.  And is it possible to deceive those who have received their glorified bodys after the 1000 years when satan is loosed?  There must be mortals who were not changed included on the earth here at this time.  Survivors of the wrath who were not beheaded?

Rev 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The end of the first ressurection?  Did it happen in parts?  If not, where did those who are seen at the wedding come from?  All difficult questions.

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

Surely these will reign beyond a 1000 years.

As opposed to...

1Th 4:16  For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
1Th 4:17  Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Could it be that these are two different events?  Sure sounds different to me.


Also....
Rev 20:7  And when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison.
Rev 20:8  And he will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle. The number of them is as the sand of the sea.

Where do these nations come from?  Everyone was supposed to have been slain that had the mark of the beast, and the headless souls were ressurected.   Somebody who is not part of the earlier people mentioned is poplulating nations.  Remember, sainst no longer give or take hand in marriage.   The only explanation I can give, is that some people who are not raptured, pre-trib, survive the wrath without taking any marks or worshiping the beast, and are not destroyed at Christs glorious apearance.  These would be the only people with Carnal bodies who could popluate in the 4 quarters of the earth, numbering as the sand of the sea of which many will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Post trib rapture cannot account for these individuals as all protected believers are changed (or died earlier and are ressurected), and ungodly are killed at the end of the 7 years.  Some people with mortal bodies are left to populate the nations.  Only a pre or mid trib happening can allow for survivors without glorified bodys.


The word in question "saints" is defined as holy (also used in Rev 4:8 as holy holy holy in a song), also used of the city of Jerusalem in another place as the holy city.  So Saint could be read as Holy or clean and pure.   Also of interest is this word is also used in an earlier verse Revelation 15:3, about those (saints or holy) singing in heaven, before the wedding.  Also used as HOLY Angels in Rev 14:10.  So it appears to be used broadly of anyone or anything that is Holy.   It would account for sainst being seen in heaven in early Rev, as well as saints being seen on the earth.   Being as saints is used so broadly, I can see where many souls could be included here.  Not to mention the nation or tribes of Israel.

Elect
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

This also could represent his chosen 144,000 from the 12 tribes.

Grace ane Peace!

Petro

I am not questioning God or whether it is right or wrong for him to do.  Not my intent at all.  As you have pointed out that we are born in a time where no persecution of christians is applicable, I disagree.  Tell this to numerous missionary's and believers who are persecuted around the world daily.  In China believers of Jesus christ are sent to labor camps for just owning a bible just for one.  I hear storys all the time of missionarys who are killed because of their faith in many countries.   We are fortunate to live in a country where this type of thing is not prevelant.   While I am not complaining at the slightest hint of persecution, I would welcome it and have even experienced it myself while in the Carabean Islands while my father did missionary work there.

As you are often quick to point out, we are saved by God given faith, not by that of works or proof.  Is it fair to say people come selfishly to christ because they wish to avoid eternal death?  You can spin this any way you wish.  To follow christ we also bear his cross, but only he can bear our judgment from God, which BTW he already did.  If God chooses to send us through the tribulation period I will accept that as I have already stated, his wisdom not mine.  In light of the difficult vaguries concerning his return, I think its fair to say God expects to explore the depths of his word.   With verses like, "praye that ye are worthy to escape" and "God has not appointed us to wrath" and ealier examples of leading his people out of harms way, its far from true to say he hasn't said or shown any promises of his devine protection.   I have clearly stated that I could buy into a mid-trib view, but offered views for a pre-trib view.

I'm sorry you feel as though I am being blasphemous by suggesting God would not want to beat up his bride.  Perhaps it was poor choice of words.  But it is just as easy to see how he would want to spare his bride from oncomming wrath, as he was willing to take himself, and in fact did.  I am only offering a perspective.  The Lord knows my heart and thats all that counts.

I will back away from this thread and my differing views, as it seems to bring you to grief and accusations.  I find that interesting in itself.  I also find it interesting that pre-trib views are often attacked by believers, while post-trib views seem to live at peace with the pre-tribys.

But I wouldn't want to complain at the slightest hint of trouble.   ;)

Grace and Peace!

2d Tim,

I was only speaking of those who remain by ther stuff, in the country in relative safety, sending only money and giving very little of our time, though I am active, there is more, that I could do, and so I include myself in these,

And, I am sorry you took this personally, I didn't mean it to address you personally at all, I was generalizing, primarily addressing the responseive arguments, using the language which are really drawn from a human perspective.

I mean, here it pleased God to take the form of a servant in likeness of men, by bringing forth His only begotten son, to take upon Himself,the due penalty for our sins, and then we demand our rights, accusing Him of injustice, if the bride should experience great tribulation.  


This is true, but even the secrets of the heart are laid bare before God, the motive is known to God,  and He is the one that does or doea not the work of the heart, He said "A new Heart will I put within you and a New Spirit will I give you."

While we can deceive even ourselves, we do not decieve with whom we have to do. Heb 4:13.


I have not said anything, about he not having shown any promises of His devine protection, I know he can keep us in the palm of His hand while the heathen rage, He has promised to keep us from the hour of His wrath, which I see, as the same hour of temptation spoken of in Rev 3:10  ( Am I wrong?), which will come upon the whole world, our dwelling place is not  in this world, physically we are here, but we long for a country and a city not made with human hands, the flesh profits nothing it is the Spirit that giveth life, when we think of tribulation and wrath, imediately we think of  physical pain and anguish, but the Spirit delivers even from that.

The Psalmist says;

Psalm 91
1  He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2  I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3  Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4  He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5  Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6  Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7  A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8  Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9  Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10  There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11  For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12  They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13  Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14  Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15  He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16  With long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation.


I don't feel as thou you have, and forgive me for giving you that impression, I just shared my own thought of what the use of the defences sound like, I didn't say they were, it just seems that way, who am I to judge such things.



Pre, Mid, Post trib views are not a matter fo death or life  as far as I can see it, I see good teaching in most all of the pre trib postion, except when we get to the verses that are taught as gospel, when clearly they are not that clear.


I have yet to have anyone, who is solidly standing on the pre trib position, explain who the saints are??  of Rev 13:7

I think everyone will agree who the saints at 1 Cor 6:1-4 are those who make up the church.

It is clear as I mentioned previously, the church is the body of Christ. Eph 5:29-30

What makes these saints any different than the Saints of Rev 13:7??  or ;

Am I wrong in presumming  these are Tribulation saints??

Is there more than one kind of Saint?? Those who make up His body and others who don't??





There is no trouble, and please do not take it personnaly, My questions are directed at anyone that can answer the few questions I have asked..

Only by raising and answering questions will we be challenged to seek the answer to these thing which keep us wondering, where, when to whom  and how will these things occur and fall upon.

Of course we want to know and seek the truth out, and be found worthy that these things not come upon us.

Lets keep working it out, by challenging each other to see, things that are not in view.


God Bless you,

Petro

PS I hadn't seen your previous answer but, will look at them closely.

Brother 2d Tim,

This is good, but if you would have gone one more verse to Rev 20:9
 you would have read;

And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Who are these??  And are they diferent than the earlier Saints.

Or could it be, these are the saints that returned to earth with the Lord at His coming, all those who were asleep, and those were on the earth at His coming of 1 Th 4:15-17.?


Its late, I'll see  you on the next post, unless the Lord returns tonight.

God Bless,

Petro

Forgive me!  I guess I did feel as though your words were a bit pointed.  Its really difficult having a meaningful coversation on-line.  So much is lost in the text because of the loss of tone inflection and body language.  I apologize if my reply was sharp.


No forgive me.  Again I did misunderstand you.  I will ask first next time   :-[  Sorry Bother.


It is difficult to make sense of all that is going on in Revelation.  John is writing down all that he is seeing.  No doubt that having a glimps of heaven, and things that are happening there would be most difficult for any human describe the things of heaven and far reaching future for John in his bible day lingo.   The Saints of Rev 13:7 could very well be the church on earth.  Clearly they are people who have accepted the Gospel of christ and are being overcome by the beast.  My question here is, when the church is removed, will anyone who comes to a saving knowledge of christ be considered a Saint also?


From how I read it they encompass all the glorified saints who are ruling with Christ from Jerusalem.  They are encircled by this army of deceived nations within the holy city.  Does this mean there are never Saints present on the earth (or died during the 1000 years) who have not yet received glorified bodies?  If you go on to Rev 20:11-15 at the great white throne judgment, the dead small and great are judged by their works.  And whosoever was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.  Sounds as if there may be some whos name is found in the book of life.   If all the previous saints were raptured or ressurected, whos name from all these dead could be found in the book of life?  (not to mention, all the nations on earth during millennium I take it are pure for the most part.  Christ destroyed the ungodly at his coming).  The text does not explain it, but seems to leave it open to interpritation.   If there are Saints in un-glorified bodies during the millennium, it would stand to reason that a few generations would die during this time, and some if not all at the end will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Of course this is all speculation.   I know this doesn't answer your question about the saints of Rev 13:7, but it does raise questions about what Saint entails, and is it possible for there to be Both Saints in a glory state, and eartly Saints all at the same time.

Grace and Peace!

The Rapture are actually 2 resurection orders. I believe that "no one knows the day not the hour" is two-fold.
- The ones that will precede us are the ones that slept in Christ. These ones had their faith when they lived, and almost all of them knew not the day they died in Christ, yet also needed to preserve their faith as they lived and progressed in Christ.
- We who are alive and will see this event take place alive.

In short that is called the rapture of the Church.

When does the church age end ? The church age end when 2000 years have passed. There are 7 years left from the prophecy of weeks in Daniel. This week is called the Tribulation and is a "left over" of the 4th millenium that will be fullfilled with the Second Coming.

Jesus gives hints when the 2000 years have passed (Matthew 24's fig tree) So instead of counting all the way from the start of the New Covenant (32 AD) until now we could also take a short cut by adding one generation from 1967.

Now back to us living people; "No one knows the day nor the hour" is A if not THE nickname for Rosh Hashana. The feast of trumpets. Why else is Paul talking about trumpets when he talks about "that day". John's Revelational writings where not released the day Paul wrote the letter (!)

It all becomes even more interesting when you find out that Christ was born on the day of Rosh Hashana, and lived 33.5 years. [And that brings you exactly to pesach 32 AD]

Christ said: If not for the ELECT those days are shortened. When the rapture is at Rosh Hashana. Apparently 7 years without the salt of the earth is almost more then humanity can bare, and then He comes back.

I have very strong evidence that He might come to pick us up at Rosh Hashana before the wrath is poured out, and I know for sure He'll come back at Yom Kippur 2000+ years after He has been crucified at Calvary.

More Bull

Is bull your scriptural retort to this thread? If so where is book, chapter, verse?
The learning process or the presentation of truth seems to cease with such one word retorts.

What redeemimg quality is there for the saved or the unsaved in these one worded put downs?

We had another poster called "brother love" that posted in a similar manner. He/she left and you came.

Please try to give your posts some thought and put something worthwhile in them.

Thanks,
Ollie

The only bulls I have ever heard of, are the Papal Bull's.........??


Petro

It is all forgiven and forgotten as far as I am concerned..



If those at Rev 13:7, are Saints, which make up the church, then just by virute of the fact they are a part of the church, make them members of the Body of Christ, remember the mystery which Paul explains, that of two God was making one body (Eph 2:11-19) and it was revealed to Him by the Spirit, see what was revealed to Him at Eph 3:1-10.

My contention has been that the whole church is the body of Christ, the union of the church made up of Jews and Gentiles cannot be fulfilled until the last person is brought into the body and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

What doea this mean?  Well it means, there can be no marriage of Christ and His church until this happens..

The next point that needs to be made is that, the passage of Revelation 13 is during the4 tribulation, and most precisely appears to be the last 42 months of that seven year period, not the first 42 mos.  

Does it appear so, to you?




From how I read it they encompass all the glorified saints who are ruling with Christ from Jerusalem.  They are encircled by this army of deceived nations within the holy city.  Does this mean there are never Saints present on the earth (or died during the 1000 years) who have not yet received glorified bodies?  If you go on to Rev 20:11-15 at the great white throne judgment, the dead small and great are judged by their works.  And whosoever was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.  Sounds as if there may be some whos name is found in the book of life.   If all the previous saints were raptured or ressurected, whos name from all these dead could be found in the book of life?  (not to mention, all the nations on earth during millennium I take it are pure for the most part.  Christ destroyed the ungodly at his coming).  The text does not explain it, but seems to leave it open to interpritation.   If there are Saints in un-glorified bodies during the millennium, it would stand to reason that a few generations would die during this time, and some if not all at the end will be deceived when satan is loosed.   Of course this is all speculation.   I know this doesn't answer your question about the saints of Rev 13:7, but it does raise questions about what Saint entails, and is it possible for there to be Both Saints in a glory state, and eartly Saints all at the same time.

Grace and Peace!

Ok, I see this, if it is, these saints in the camp are those who returned with Jesus they possess glorified bodies, but it doesn't mean the marriage supper has taken place yet.  

And if there are any who have been saved during the tribulation, how is it, they are seen as being outside the body of Christ?

What basis is there for tesaching there two bodies, that of Christ and then others who are not in Christ.

It is clear to me that if any become saved during the tribulation it is because they have believed "on Jesus"  look at John 17:20, closely, they become Christ's because they have believed on Jesus through the words of others, have been sealed by the Spirit nand they belong to Christ;

Or is there another salvation program, using the everlasting gospel?

If you remember I posted these when we discussed this very thing, before.

Jhn 17
15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20  Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;


Does this prayer include just the those in church age or does it cover all believers to the end?

My next question;

If these are saved by coming thru the Great Tribulation are not of the Body iof Christ, what are they??

It is clear, God is making one body of two, Jews and Gentiles.

The more I look at these verses, the more it appears to me, The church remains thru the tribulation is raptured at the end of it, and continues to have those added to it, who are ordained unto life (Acts 13:48), right up until the end.

Thats whats it looks like......


Blessings

Petro

Petro: even though in theory seperated by days: Trib yes, Wrath no. I do not feel called to put you down on your beliefs. But we are really talking about 10 days to a max of 7 years; I for one do not want to waste much time and efford on that discussion, for it's a non-issue.

When you think you're ready and richeouss enough to receive the wrath of the almighty then maybe, just maybe something, somewhere in your brain/being is asking some pretty painfull questons....

I am not a vessle that is being prepared for wrath; Trib aye, but wrath ? NEVER !

You see; you can shoot down the -i'm not going to see all the bad stuff 'cuz i'm gonna be raptured- view, but gunning down wrath is harder, my brother. I for one, am convinced we are going to see the antichrist; the worldly chritian will fall for his FLATTERIES and CHARMING talk. They'll think he's a christian. Kinda like Bush now  ;D  

But before the wrath the true nation of God will be raised !

Petro,

You raise some good points in your last post.


I guess it boils down to who is the bride of Christ.  While we are all part of one body, the body has many parts.  Not that this point alone disproves what you are saying.  I will have to give this more thought and prayer.


I would agree.  This looks to be at the halfway point, or last half as the beast has just set up his image to be worshiped, and declaring himself God.


While I would agree that Revelations may not all be in chronological order, it does appear that the wedding and supper have already taken place in Rev 19:7.  Johns vision continues right afterwards seeing heaven opened and the Lords triumphant return to the earth to rule with his Bride.  Clearly the armies of Satans deceived nations are spoken of after the 1000 year reign, and are focussing on the Lord and his saints in the holy city in one last attemp to defeat God.  After this we see the great white throne judgment, where the dead souls are judged....and yet it sounds as though some will be found written in the book of life even here.  Are these considered to be part of the bride as well even though the wedding has taken place back in chapter 19?  I find it interesting that the Tribulation saints are given Robes, while the bride is described as being adorned in White fine linen. Is there a distinction here between the two?  I can't say for sure, but the language does seem different.  Also he says, "blessed are those who are have been called to marriage supper of the lamb."    Again, another distinction between groups.  Is it possible that there will be guests at the wedding?


Jesus is praying not only for his beloved desciples but all who come to salvation throughout history I believe.   You will remember that God took Enoch, and Elijah was taken away in a chariot of fire.   The deciples had much work to do, carrying on the ministry christ left for them.

You will also recall that when the Gospel is preached throughout the world Mat 24:14 then the end shall come.


While I cannot argue all must be one body, there are various parts, and we do know that those who are called to the wedding, are described as blessed.

Very good points you bring up.  Again I must dwell on these further.  For now this is the best I can offer.

Grace and Peace!

twobombs


I agree and I believe everyone would agree the church will be outta here by the time the wrath of God is poured out on the earth, I see it for just a very short peiod of time at the begining of the millennial reaign, for sure..
Alot of Christians do not believe in the Millenial reign, but believe in the Pre Trib Rapture which could even occur up to the Mid point of the Trib.

We are siomply trying to put scriptures together that will, shed lite on the matter, I do not all of them, obviously, since I am asking questions to establish How it is pre tribs, come to the conclusion, I do understand how they get there but, the q's I am asking are not addressed.

Do you have any answers concerning my questions?


Petro

2d Tim,

Ok we can sit on these, till the Lord gives more lite.

I don't mind refering to commentaries, but I find blessings come when I don't.

Somehow I have always seen, turning to commentaries for truth, as actually insulting the Spirit of Grace, since when we do that,  we look for truth in someone elses opinions, it is ok to  I believe to use them for simple reference but, not to make the scriptures fit the opinions.

At the trun of the 19th century, my understanding was that the Post Tribulation theory was more popular than the Pre Trib position, so depending which position is most popular  iswhat is taught predominently.

Kind of like coming and going with every wind of doctrine.

God Bless,

Petro

Petro,

Again I read through this whole thread (where has choobaca gone ?) to get all the lines with a question mark.
I am *very* relieved that you agree with the pre-wrath rapture. But it was a pitfall ;)  [ the Scriptures are marked bold ]

For the wrath starts earlier, as early as written in:
Jhn 5:43     I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

This man is the man of sin. This man is the very reason that it's scriptually posible to have a rapture upto 7 years before the second coming. But its not very likely to happen, as history teaches that the previous 3 jewish spring feasts were fullfilled within months. I espect the same with the harvest feasts, but then we DO have several problems; one of them is shortage of time, for in a period of days or even months it is impossible to pour out that much misery upon the world. Plus the worlds demise isn't slumbering; for decades we can observe several forms of decay or "birth pangs" as they are called.

The call sign is the "sudden destruction that cometh upon them" for it is written:
Eze 9:4     And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

In the same vision 6 angels carry weapons of destruction to "spare not even a child or women"  (  :-[ )
Eze 9:5     And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

These weapons are the wrath, of wich we shall have no portion of, for our God is a righteous God in His judgements.
Now in answer of one of your questions: where we will be during the judgement; all of us will be in heavenly places; the devil will be cast on the earth at that time.

Now on to the hot iron called Rev.13; I will shake you Petro :) To connect the man of sin to Isael, we have the "42 months" as a ruler. Here we go:
Rev 13:5     And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty [and] two months.
Rev 11:2     But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

But wait ! read the next verse:
Rev 11:3     And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4     These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now back to Rev 13
Rev 13:7     And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And what will happen with these 2 witnesses :
Rev 11:7     And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8     And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

So, Petro, the question is, who do you think are the 2 witnesses. According to the scriptures above these are semaphores for the group of people that are persecuted and martyred in the last 7 years.

It would have been so nice.....

But the 2 witnesses are in a different resurrection order..... They both lived and died at the same time, were brought back to life by God and are raptured like the Lord died (for us) was brought back to life and went to heaven, but unfortunately those two are not us; they are not raptured with the sound of the trumpet; they are even in the midst of the woes; the latter part of the Trib.

So, unfortunately Rev 13 is not the right ticket to pinpoint us in time, just days/weeks before our Rapture, just after the resurection the dead in Christ, these are the trib saints, they indeed have more glory. Rev 13 is very nice however to couple the man in Jhn 5:43 to the state of Israel through Rev 11:2 or the same scripture in Ezechiel.

And with this I answered your question: who are the (two) Trib witnesses ? They are in a different resurrection order, they are not us. We are either before or after those 2; we are not them.

In anticipation of your/the next question; well, where are we in the scripture (without a coupling to the 2 witnesses) I will take you back to the last portion of
Eze 9:11     And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

Apparently the man clothed in linnen (this is a type of the Holy Spirit) sealed of the people just before the other 6 men started their work, and was finished whilst the others were still busy with doing their thing.

This is very (very,very,very,very) important: the fullness of the gentiles and of the believing jews are sealed before the 6 men are finished, not one is added after the man clothed in linnen came back to report, yet the judgement of God is still in progress, and even after the intervention of Ezechiel commenced even heavier; for the Lord spoke out his Judgement and commenced with it.

Petro, you and I know what happens when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. To complete the whole thing here we go :
Rom 11:25     For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Previously you agreed with me that we are not appointed to wrath. Well, how can this be.... ? We are not appointed to wrath, yet there is an obvious timetable between the sealing of those that sigh and cry, the wrath, and the whole nation of Israel accepting their saviour as it is written in:
Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

Petro: We previously also agreed that there is a separation of events; there are days, if not months (or years) between the Second Coming of Christ on earth, and us being raptured with the last trump, they are not the same event, just as Rosh Hashana isn't the same thing as Yom Kippur, yet are connected with each other.

And the thing is that I already quoted the answer....  let's go back to
Eze 9:11  And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which [had] the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

The man in linnen is a type of the Holy Ghost, and He reports to God. Which means; he went into the city; sealed off every last Gentile and Jewish believer, came out of the city, and reported back to God.
The effect in those days is also descibed by Paul in :
2Th 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.

Here you see the of the man in linnen doing His work, sealing of men, until the appointed time, when He is no longer amidst them (and reports back to God that he sealed off each and everyone that "sigh and cry")

I know, maybe you're not convinced yet, but as this understanding who the man in linnen really is, is very (yes: very,very, very) important, i'll take you to :
Dan 12:6 And [one] said to the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, How long [shall it be to] the end of these wonders?
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Here the man clothed in linnen is revealed much more specific as being placed above the angels having authority to sware in his Name that this period will not be longer then 3.5 (prophetic) years; 1260 days.

Yes, Petro, here we are at the mid point of the 7 years, and the man clothed in linnen of Dan 12:6 speaks out and gives the answer.

So, the judgement will start at the 70th week and commence in a more severe manner in the latter part of the last 7 years:
Dan 12:11 And from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed [is] he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I hope you still agree with me on the pre-wrath stance, as here in Dan 12:12 there is the waiting game until the Second Coming; the fullfillment of Zec 12:10.

You see, Christ came unexpected for the Jewish nation and rulers in that age, and relatively unespected He will take us to spare us the agony of His righteous judgement and wrath, as promised.

More on this also in the Apocalypse of Elijah
http://www.geocities.com/twobombs/apoceli1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/twobombs/apoceli2.jpg
cut and paste the URL into a new browser window; otherwise geocities will not accept the link.