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Do you teach or support The Trinity Doctrine on this forum?

If so can you show me in the Bible where it mentions it and teaches it.

Please don't quote 1 John 5:7 for this is a spurious verse added by the Roman Catholics, and anything they do, is of the Devil.

Can I ask, do you do live comedy, or do you just write stuff ot make people laugh?

The Hebrew word used for "God" here is Elohim, and is properly capitalized.  The plural form of the word is used, as is indicated by the im ending.  The word is properly translated "God" as opposed to "gods" as one must understand the original audience - the Hebrew.  This multiplicity of the name with the singular conotation is freely accepted.  Granted, they will still hold to the One Person concept, but the meaning is in the word given.  Interesting isn't it how this is the 4th word in the book?

Interesting as well, the Trinity is seen in creation itself:


God The Father       -     Master Planner
God The Son          -     Master Builder - John 1:3, Heb. 1:3
God The Holy Spirit  -     Master Foreman - Gen. 1:2


The Trinity is also seen in the many appearances of God in the Old Testament - all being Christophonies, or the preincarrnate appearance of Christ.

The Trinity is more clearly taught in the New Testament, through the Gospel accounts of the relationship between God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit.  Shall I post these passages as well?

As for the 1 John 5:7 passage...I understand the position many take on this passage.  I personally hold to it, however, do not need it to base the doctrine taught throughout scripture my friend.   :)

1 John 5:7 says God, the word, and the holy Ghost bare record in heaven and these three are one.

This is a testamonial to the accord of the three as one, They are in unified agreement and bare record of it in heaven.

This does not contradict or conflict with the other scriptures that reveal these three.

Absolutely, it happens to be the central doctrine of the Christian Faith.


Will do, later...


The verse you reference have nothing to do with the Catholic church.

The disappearance of the verses from the Bible in question, were the result of the Wescott & Hort translation of the Greek Scriptures of 1881, held in high regard by the Watchtower and other insitutions that deny the diety of Christ.

For better than 400 years, the verses in question were in the Bible supported by the code x  manuscripts, they may have been removed from the newer versions but, the manuscripts still exist thereby supporting the verses.

charlie,

Do You Believe that God the Redeemer, Savior, of the OT??

How about the Redeemer, Savior, of the NT??

If Jesus is neither, then who is Jesus??

It is clear from your question, you do not...believe Jesus is the God of the OT, inspite of the fact the Bible tells He is.

Consider these historical truths; familiarizing yourself with the history and canon of scripture will help you come to the truth, concerning this matter.

All new versions and modern liberal bibles, rely heavely on the W&S translations, I wouldn't give a plug nickel for them.

Which is one reason why I do not use the NIV, ASV, NASB or any other waterdowned version of scriptures. except to use them for reference, because although they are corrupted in certain verses they, are accurately translated in others, more accurately due to the newer (older) manuscripts recovered since 1604.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker2.html

Would you take a magic marker to your Bible and cross out words from passages?

This chart illustrates what was done when the text used by Christianity for 1800 years was replaced with a text assembled by Westcott and Hort in the nineteenth century and used as the basis for the English Revised Version, which nearly all modern translations closely follow.

The text shown here is the King James Version. Words, sentences, or entire verses in strikethrough
 illustrate portions that have been removed from the text underlying the KJV New Testament. Not all modern versions are the same. Sometimes the NASB will include a word the NIV doesn't, or the NRSV might omit a phrase the NIV and NASB both retain, etc... but for the most part, the examples below represent nearly all of the popular modern versions. (Psudeo-KJV versions such as the NKJV are far more subtle and are a different case. See the articles section for NKJV examinations.)

Compare your modern version and see what the KJV has that yours doesn't. This list is not comprehensive, it is just a sample! The modern critical text that forms the basis for nearly all modern versions omits the equivalent of the entire books of 1st and 2nd Peter.

Critics commonly charge that the traditional Bible text used by believers for 1800 years adds material, and that we should be thankful for Westcott and Hort who came along in the 19th century to restore the text of the New Testament that had been corrupt for 1800 years and during the entire reformation. This charge is of course made against evidence to the contrary, as you will find if you research the text lines (read other articles on this website). Further, it is interesting to note that one of these verses is this:

Romans 13:9:
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The phrase "thou shalt not bear false witness" is missing from the modern critical text (and therefor most modern versions).

Now I ask you: is it reasonable to assume that a scribe added a self-incriminating phrase to the passage? Isn't it more likely that "those who corrupt the word of God" (2 Cor. 2:17, KJV)
removed the phrase which indicted them?

Now on to Westcott and Hort's Magic Marker Binge

(Part 2: Acts - Revelation)

1 John 5:7-8

there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Petro

PS.   Here is the whole website, which address these;

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/various.html
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html
http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker2.html

charlie,

The first question one must answer in trying to understand the mystery of the "Triune nature of the God head" one must establish what is true about the doctrine of the "trinity".

I've heard people say that; belief in the trinity means that we worship three gods. This simply reflects ignorance of the word of God by those who make such statements. Any Christian willing to read their KJV will conclude the Godhead is made up of three distinct unique persons.

To deny the Godhead is to deny the very words written at;

1 Jhn 5
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
This  verse does not contradict  Deut 6:4;
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Omitting one verse from Gods Word, will NOT destroy what the Bible teaches clearly .

There are three attributes that can only be attributed to the one true Creator God.

I. He is the Creator God.

II. He is Omniscience.

III. He is Omnipotant.

The Bible teaches God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit each possess all of these, attributes, and each work harmoniusly one with the other to accomplish the will of the God head,  that is,  that all men might know Him, the one and only true God, and give Him all the Glory.

I am not going to spend a whole lot of time on this, but I will give you, the verses, which show that each possesses these unique characteristics, which no other god, men consider to be diety possesses.

I.  Creator

At the begining of the Bible in the very first 3 verses of the Bible, you will find all three of actively involved in the creation, the plan was originated in God the Father.

Gen 1
Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

If you were indoctrinated in the JW movement, or AdventISM, no doubt you are familiar with the arguments put forth by fundemental protestants concerning these.

We see God creating the heavens and the earth. And all of it by speaking, it forth into existence from that which is not seen (Heb 11:3), note vs 3 of Heb. "framed by the word of God,", referring to Jesus the Son, who is called the Word of God who was made flesh and dwelt among men (Jhn 1:14), there is no doubt left that the Word was God, who  created every living thing that was made, who made all things, so that without him was not any thing made that was made.(Jhn 1:3) is referring to Jesus.

And that Word was God(Jhn 1:1), so both of the first a three verses of the OT and NT, imediately tell who God is.

Colossians 1, says this of Him, speaking of Jesus the Son;
15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:
16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19  For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20  And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

At verse 15, don't confuse yourself, He didn't create himself.

Was Jesus refered to as God  in the NT aside from Jhn1:1, turn to;

1 Tim3
16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. (see Jhn 1:14)

and ,

Titus 2
13  Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (read this in the lite of (Isa 43:10-11)

Was he revealed to the apostles as God,  absolutely, consider Thomas' confession at Jhn 20:28 and then even Jesus stated;

I and my Father are one. Jhn 10:30

 They are one, and the same, heavy................ huh?

By the way, unless you possess the Holy Spirit of God, you will not be able to comprehend any of these things, because it by HIS Spirit that these things are revealed to HIS people,

However I will pray for you and your wife that , God will make these things clear to you, and convict you of your sin of unbelief.

continued......................

Notice what, 1 Cor 2 says concerning this;

6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10  But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Not to mention the mysteries of Christ;

Eph 3
3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5  Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


This then, brings us to the Holy Spirit, who excercises the power of the Father and the Son, not only at creation but also in redemption.

I like the way the Holy Spirit is defined to us by  "The Illustrated Dictionatry of the Bible" edited by Herbert Lockleyer, Sr. ,  Nelson Press.

"The Holy spirit is the power by which believers come to Christ and see with new eyes of faith. He is closer to us than we are to oursleves. Like the eyes  of the body through which we see physical things, He is seldom in focus to be seen directly because He, is the one through whom all else is seen in a new light.  This eplains why the relationship  of the Father and the Son is more prominent in the Gospels, because it is through the eyes of the Holy Spirit that the Father-Son relationshipt is viewed. "

He is the expressed power of the triune Godhead.  It is the Spirit that giveth Life, the flesh profiteth nothing. (Jhn 6:63)(Gen2:7)

Rom 8
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.



During the creation  Holy Spirit was also there,  what does the Bible say He was doing??  

Consider what Job says about the Spirit at the creation.

Job 26
2  How hast thou helped him that is without power? how savest thou the arm that hath no strength?
3  How hast thou counselled him that hath no wisdom? and how hast thou plentifully declared the thing as it is?
4  To whom hast thou uttered words? and whose spirit came from thee?
5  Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof.
6  Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
8  He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.
9  He holdeth back the face of his throne, and spreadeth his cloud upon it.
10  He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.
11  The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.
12  He divideth the sea with his power, and by his understanding he smiteth through the proud.
13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
14  Lo, these are parts of his ways: but how little a portion is heard of him? but the thunder of his power who can understand?

Note verse 5, the word "dead" refers to physical bodies that have no life, before they are brought forth in  birth, note "under the waters", yet the Spirit of God "moved upon the face of the waters" we are told at Gen 1:2, read verses through 10, and you see ther Spirit was active in bringing every word into existence in power as the Word was spoken by God the Father at Gen 1.

Is the Holy Spirit called God, turn to Acts 5, and read the story of Annias and  Sapphira his wife, consider verses 1 thru 10, but look at verse;

 4  Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

The Holy Spirit calls men out and equips them for service to himself as God, notice; (Acts 13:2)



So there you have it, God the creator of all things, is personified by three unique individuals, The Father who planned all things, the Son who is revealed as the God the Word, and the Spirit who exceutes the power and testifies concerning the Father and the Son.


Well, thats enough for now, I will give more on the Onipresence and Omniscience attributes of these of all three persons in  the next few days, unless  someone gives em to you.

And I say, by all means raise your objections, it might help if you pull out your interlinear....not the JW one..

Blessings,

Petro

Thanks, Petro

charlie

So by way of review; I have shown how that God's unique attributes as creator, are also possessed by the Son and The Holy Spirit; lets look at these again;

There is only one God, and within the one Godhead, their exist three distinct unique persons, who are independent one from the other, yet not three Gods but ONE.

Christians that understand this,

"do not confuse the persons nor divide the substance; this means that the Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and The Holy Spirit is not The Father but, together indivisibly they constitute the One True God of the Bible."  as defined by Dr. Peter Barnes an Ex-JW, who presently minsters in an outreach mission toex-JW's.

The prophet Isaiah in prophecying asks the question;

Isa 40
18  To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?

The Bible makes it clear Jesus as the Son of God, and The Holy Spirit, possess the same UNIQUE ATTRIBUTES as GOD, and are equal with Him in all things.

If anyone can add to these feel free to do so;

God as creator;

Listen to how scripture describes Him as creator;

Isa 40
25  To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
26  Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Jesus as Creator;

Jhn 1
3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Col 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  See (Heb 1:8-10) also.

Eph 3
9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:



Holy Spirit as Creator    see.... Gen 1:1-2, Jon 26:13

While speaking of God the Holy Spirit Job says the following;

Job 31
15  Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

Job 33  4  The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life

The Spirit is even referred to as Yehovah, Isa 49:5..And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant,  ...................


Another uniques attribute oif the one and only true God is that of being ETERNAL:

God is eternal;

While everything else in the Creation has and expected begining and end. Even the Angels, God is described as being eternal with no begining nand no end.

Note:

Psa 90
1  A Prayer of Moses the man of God. LORD, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2  Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Is Jesus the Son, Eternal?

Micah 5
2  But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Is the Holy Spirit Eternal:

Heb 9
14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

So far we have covered two of the four uniques attributes that can only be characteristics of the One True God.



Blessings,

Petro

Dear Petro

              Reading lengthy works has always intimidated me but reading your piece drew me in.  This is very good information, a good read indeed, I look forward to reading some more.

God bless Brother!!!

agur

agur,

Praise the Lord, I trust this will help, in giving you a grasp, which will allow you to share these truths of  the biblical triune nature of the Godhead, it is a mystery I do not understand it all myself, but clearly the scriptures support it.

I forgot to include "The Eternal" attribute of the Godhead, which I did, in my last post, and this  probably should be the first one in the order.

When I get time I will post the other two.

God Bless,  and Happy New Year to you and your family.


Petro
 

charlie,

Now, allow me to ad two verse to my previous post, concerning the Holy Spirit as giver of life.

 Does the Holy Spirit give eternal life

Rom 8
11  But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

This is speaking of the resurrected body, which will be transformed into a glorified body, by the power of the Spirit.

Gal 6:
8   For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Let me give you additional information which should be helpful, in understanding the Holy Spirit to be a Person as well as God.

In case you may not believe the Holy Spirit is called God we can begin with this point frist, here are some verses which you might take into consideration;

Acts 5
5:1  But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2  And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it, at the apostles' feet.
3  But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4  Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

How about;

2 Cor 3:17-18
17  Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom.
18  And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit. NWT

We know Jehivah is God.

Of all the translations, the NWT is the best one concerning the Holy Spirit, you see here that The Spirit is Jehovah and Jehovah is that Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not just some kind of force, as some would say, like electricity, no, not at  all, the Holy Spirit is a Personage  with a personality of His own, just like any human, He posssess the characteristics that are able to recognize Him to be so, consider the following;  

Does the Holy Spirit have a personality?  Absolutely,  He is reffered to as "HE (That Male Person)"

The Greek word translated He in the following verses is  "ekeinos" demonstrative pronoun , in the  masculine.

Jhn 16
13  Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that He shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.
16  A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

The Holy Spirit addresses himself as me and I, note the verses below;

Acts 13
2  As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Only a person would address himself in this manner.


Does the Holy Spirit have a mind an gives or  renders decisions and bears witness, notice;

Acts 15
28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Rom 8
16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Eph 4
30  And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

All of these identify the Holy Spirit as a divine Personage, who clearly is referred to  Himslef as I and me, He can be lied to, and grieved, He considers matters and renders decisions, and above all else He makes interssesion for Gods people (Rom 8:27), and, in as much as He possess all of the same attributes as God, And is called God and  is revealed as the third Person of the Godhead working from the begining to execute the plan of creation and salvation in so much as it pertains to humans.

Blessings,   Happy New year

Petro