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Once Saved, Always Saved

Is it possible to lose your salvation? This is a very important question that we must consider carefully. If it is possible to lose salvation, it is of tantamount importance that we understand just what we must do to stay saved. If it is not possible to lose it, it is our duty to point this out to those who say it is.

First we must understand the basis of our salvation. Is salvation based on what we do?

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

These scriptures, and countless others, make it clear that salvation is not based on what we do for God. In fact, it is just the opposite. Our salvation is based on what God did for us (Rom 5:8; 1 Cor 15:3,4; 2 Cor 5:21).

Since we can't do anything to be saved, how can we be expected to do anything to stay saved? The scriptures teach that we are secure in Christ and that nothing, not even our own unbelief, can separate us from the love of God once we have trusted in Christ's sacrifice for our sin. (Rom 8:33-39; Phil 1:6; 2 Tim 2:11-13)

The argument that we must work to stay saved often stems from an unclear understanding of all we have been given in Christ.

We are members of the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27; Eph 1:22,23, 5:30)
Does Christ cut off parts of his body?

We are sealed with the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1:22; Eph 1:13,14, 4:30)
Is anyone strong enough to break God's seal?

We are a purchased posession (1 Cor 6:20, 7:23; Eph 1:14)
Does God throw away that which he purchased with his own blood?

We are adopted sons of the Father (Rom 8:15-23; Gal 4:5; Eph 1:5)
Does God disown his sons?

It can be easily seen that salvation cannot be lost since, from beginning to end, it is dependent on the work of Christ, not the works of men. Our works can't get us saved, and our works can't keep us saved.

But don't scriptures such as Heb 6:4-6, 10:26,27 and 2 Pet 2:20-22 teach that salvation can be lost if we don't continue in good works? Yes, they do! However, these scriptures are not written to the body of Christ in the dispensation of the grace of God. They are written to believers under the Jewish dispensation

      Ambassador4Christ;
    AMEN!!!!! Thankyou.

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are  sealed  unto the day of redemption.

sealed

Once Saved, Always Saved

Live4Christ

Thanks Bro  ;D

AAAAAAAAMEN!!!!

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.  Philippians 1:21

And AAAAAAAAAAAMEN!!!

Not aw!  It's by our filthy rags called works and strict adherence to the LAW!!!  Just ask John the baptist and Micheal.  Christ's finished work on the cross (it is finished) isn't good enough to save us.  We have to become good little boys and girls or santa won't bring us any gifts.  I mean God won't save us.

Have a good one!    :D

Most definitely, we must have faith. To have faith we must believe. Once we believe we must act on that belief so that the Holy Ghost can be given to us.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Acts 2
37   Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.[/i]

 

See above. And our obedience to His Word.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 15:9-10
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.[/i]


‘once we have trusted’ means we had to do something, in this case, in your own words: ‘trusted’. So are you now saying there is something we need to do to be saved?


True, but if we have no works then our faith is dead.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Romans 11
19   Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20   Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21   For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22   Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/i]


No of course not. God’s seal is our promise of salvation but it’s still our choice whether we enter in or not.


See above; Romans 11


See above; Romans 11


These scriptures are written to Christian as we see in these verses below:

2 Peter 1
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 3
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;[/i]

(http://www.fci.crossnet.se/images/eternallife.gif)

 Honestly, I'm not sure about this O.S.A.S. stuff.
There are many people who used to believe, and now no longer do. There is one such person on this forum who admits that he was once a believer and now he is volatile toward God, he mocks God and insults Christians.

Jesus said the following...
 Rev 22:11  He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.  
   
    Rev 22:12   And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 Some feel as though once they become believers they don't have to "love thy neighbor" in other words, there are some greedy, uncaring Christians among us. Jesus tells us to be involved with our fellow brothers and sisters. We must be charitable, we must offer help and counseling. And Jesus said He will Judge His own according to their works, and those who have done great work in His name shall have a greater reward than those who do little.

But Jesus also said this...

Mat 7:20   Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.  
   
    Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  
   
    Mat 7:22   Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  
   
    Mat 7:23   And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 Why would Jesus teach us to pray by asking God the Father to "forgive us our trespasses" if we were already eternally secured?

 I'm not saying O.S.A.S. is wrong, I'm just not sure that it is. I believe we must fight the good fight against temptation and sin, and pray the way Jesus instructed us to. I also know that there is nothing we can do to on our own merit to be saved, we need to accept Jesus' sacrifice for that. But I know there are many people who once believed and now don't.
 The argument that, "well, they were never true believers in the first place" is very assumptive.

Gods love is manifest to us today by the gospel of God. The gospel of God is His good news to mankind. His good news for us today is His Son, Jesus Christ, dying on the cross for our sins, being buried, and risen again on the third day. This death, burial and resurrection is good news because it is by this sacrifice of God that we have available to us today the opportunity to be saved from eternal punishment for our sins. God set His Son forth to be the complete sacrifice for our sins. Gods sacrifice of His Son is good news to us because it is by His sacrifice that we have eternal life. When Christ rose and revived from the dead He was given a new glorified body that would live eternal and glorified in Heaven. Through His life we too can have eternal life. When we believe the truths of Christs death, burial and resurrection for our sins we are placed in a status as children of God. As a child of God we are promised many wonderful blessings. God is true to His word and His promises. As a child of God we are secure in those promises. As we look into the truths about the gospel or good news of God please understand what is offered and accomplished through His gospel; salvation, eternal life, and so much more. Understand that the good news is just what it says it is "GOOD NEWS"! Please understand how salvation comes to us as a free gift of God and that we receive these blessings not because of anything weve done. We believe and then we receive. Therefore, nothing anyone can do will separate us from the salvation we have secured in Christ Jesus if we have believed in the gospel of God.

Everytime someone says Jesus said this and Jesus said that, I keep coming to this one conclusion that Jesus said also.

Matthew 15
23   But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
24   But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25   But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, "Lord, help me!"



So what I have no choice to believe is that Jesus was speaking his comandments to them, the lost sheep of the house of Israel and He helped a few outside the House of Israel, very few.

But His sacrifice has been extended to the gentiles by Gods Grace and His Grace alone.  And that these wonderful things that Jesus said, although so wonderful and I try my best to follow His wonderful teachings, the Salvation issue is settled once and for always by his Sacrifice not His words, Which I might add were spoken to the lost sheep of the house of Israel

Many things are accomplished by the gospel of God, one of which is:

A.) By the gospel we are "called" unto salvation. What I mean by that is this; if not for God calling us unto salvation, salvation would not be possible. In other words, if it were left up to us we would never have any chance at escaping Gods wrath upon sin. In fact, if it were not for the gospel of God we would never even call upon God to save us. Our natural state as humans is to go apart from God. We do not seek Him. Actually, we do just the opposite of seeking God, we go away from God. In Romans 3:11 and 12, God through Paul says regarding ALL HUMANS "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Therefore, we must realize that God through His Love reaches out an arm of long suffering to us and offers to us salvation through His Son Jesus Christ. God calls us unto salvation. Not because of anything good we do but because of His unabounding love. He manifests His glory to us by setting forth His Son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins, to be buried, and to be risen again on the third day (I Corinthians 15:1-4). It is by Jesus Christ that God calls us unto salvation (I Cor. 1:9) and He gives us that good news by His word. Romans 10:17 says "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Gods word is His way of communicating His gospel to us today. We must read the Bible or hear the gospel from someone who has read the Bible in order for us to be called and in order for us to accept and believe it. One very important thing to know about the calling of the gospel is that it is available to every human being on the face of the earth. There is not a chosen few who will be saved while the rest are left to burn in eternal wrath. Romans 3:22 says "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference". This verse is clear that salvation is offered to all but is only given to those who believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins, being buried and resurrected on the third day.

Once we believe the gospel of God we are saved. Despite our past sins and continual sins we are justified in Gods eyes because Jesus paid our sin debt. Jesus was the complete and perfect sacrifice for our sins. When He shed His blood on the cross our sins were no longer laid to our account. When He arose from the dead life became possible to those who believe Gods good news. Romans 1:16 says "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Through Gods gospel we are offered salvation.

 

As a result of believing the gospel and being saved we receive life and immortality.

B.) It is by the gospel of God that we are given eternal life. II Timothy 1:10 says "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel". After Christ died on the cross for our sins He was buried in the tomb and arose from the dead on the third day following His death. Forty days later He then ascended into Heaven to sit on the right hand of God the Father where He lives and reigns eternally today. Acts 1:3 says "To whom also He (Jesus) shewed Himself alive after His passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God". Acts 1:9 "And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight." We must give great attention to the fact that Christ LIVES today. Romans 14:9 says "For to this end Christ both died, and arose, and revived, that He might be Lord both of the dead and the living". There is a possibility for something to be risen and not be alive. Something can be physically risen but that doesnt necessarily mean that it is alive. God wants us to have no doubt that Christ is alive today. Thus His statement, "Christ both died, and rose, and revived". Not only was He risen but He was REVIVED. He is alive never to experience death again. Romans 6:9 says, "Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over Him." He will live eternally! As Christ lives today those who have believed the gospel of God so too have eternal life. Romans 6:5 says, "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection". Verse 8 "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him". As Christ will never again experience death so to we as believers will never experience spiritual death. We are dead unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord (Romans 6:11). Make no mistake about it, if we believe the gospel of Jesus Christs death, burial and resurrection, we can count it to be so that as Christ lives today eternally so do we live eternally. Colossians 3:3 says "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God". What a comforting verse that proves that a believers eternal life is hidden or laid up in store in Christ. How much more secure and eternal can anything be than to be hid in Christ?

Once a person makes a true decision to believe the gospel then they, at some point later in their life, CAN NOT choose to not be saved. Once theyve made the decision to believe they are secure in their salvation. They cannot then choose to abandon their standing as a Christian. To reinforce this statement let us look at II Timothy 2:11, 12, 13. Verse 11, "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him." When a person believes the gospel they become identified with Christs death (Romans 6:3). Since we are identified with Christs death we cannot become unidentified because we are sealed in our identification by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). Lets continue with II Timothy 2:12, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us". If we as believer suffer with Him we will get to reign with Him. However, if we deny Him He will deny us reigning with Him (Romans 8:17, 18). II Timothy 2:13, "If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself." Notice here that Paul, the human writer of this verse says, "If we believe not". Paul is including himself in this hypothetical situation. Paul is obviously saved and yet he says, "If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:". If Paul for some reason had stopped believing he would still be saved because God would still be faithful and so Paul concludes the verse by telling why he would still be saved. "He (God) cannot deny Himself." To better understand this let us be reminded that once a person is saved they are placed and sealed by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Ephesians 5:30, "For we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones." Thus, Paul can make the statement by the inspiration of God: "He (God) cannot deny Himself." God cannot deny the Body of Christ, which are the believers in this age (dispensation) of grace. Therefore, we conclude by the verses that once a person makes a self-conscience decision to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ they become saved and they cannot choose to anytime thereafter to not be saved. God will remain faithful to His children and will not deny Himself (the body of Christ). It is important to point out the fact that the statement that God cannot deny Himself refers to not being able to deny the Body of Christ, His children. He can and will deny those who have not been saved which are those who have not believed in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

Hi, John here:
I heard a Baptist friend preach a sermon on this one time. And it seems that the sermon's message is dwelt on 'continuely', huh?

Any way, back to my 'spiritual blind' friend. As 'i' listened to his message i became convinced that he was preaching to himself! Trying perhaps as the ones seen posting here are doing? With following up posts of nothing more than that of AMEN? He kept repeating in the sermon that I REALLY BELIEVE THIS TEACHING! Over & over the words were repeated through the sermon. How could the Holy Spirit 'lead' in this presumptous blind stuff?

Then there is another friend that was in the Baptist seminary.
He ran into trouble with the 'pricks' of the Holy Spirit on this very subject. It got so bad that he took all of his books home & put them in the basement. And left the seminary.

Finally he became so depressed that he finally ran into the path of an uncoming truck. It was his wife that ran ahead to flag down the trucker & save his life.

Anyhow, some time passed, & the Holy Spirit 'led' him back into the Word of God, and take a guess what prayerfully followed? Rom. 8:14

---John

When we hear the gospel of our salvation and we believe that message then we are at that point sealed by the Holy Spirit into the body of Christ. Ephesians 1:13 says "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,". What we want to notice in this verse is that upon believing the gospel we are "sealed" into our salvation. This sealing takes place by the Holy Spirit, which is the third member of the Godhead. God promises us that upon our belief in the gospel, He will seal us into the Body of Christ.

 

In the Scriptures a seal signifies three things:

A Finished Transaction - In Jeremiah 32:9-10, the passage signifies the meaning of being sealed as a finished transaction. Here Jeremiah buys the field of Hanameel with money as God has instructed him to do. In verse ten the transaction is sealed, it is finished. (Other scripture references are John 17:4 and 19:30)
 

Ownership Jeremiah 32:11 and 12 explains of evidence of a completed purchase being taken to Baruch. Later in verse 13, 14, and 15 Jeremiah tells Baruch to take the evidences of the purchase and put then in an earthen vessel. Jeremiah has the right to do this because he has ownership of the land.
 

II Timothy 2:19 says "the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His." God has ownership of a believer. The Holy Spirit has sealed the purchase.

 

Security In Esther 8:8 King Ahasuerus says "Write ye also for the Jew, as it liketh you, in the kings name, and seal it with the kings ring: for the writing which is written in the kings name, and sealed with the kings ring, may no man reverse." The verse teaches that the writing that is written in the kings name and sealed with the kings ring may no man reverse. The same principle applies to the King of Kings. God has sealed believers of today into the Body of Christ and now nothing can reverse that sealing. It is a secure seal. (Other references are Daniel 6:17 and Ephesians 4:30).
 

As I stated before, the sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place as a result of a person believing the gospel of salvation (Ephesians 1:13). The Holy Spirit takes us and places us into one body the Body of Christ. This is called the baptism by the Holy Spirit. I Corinthians 12:13 says "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." Please notice hear that we are not baptized into the Holy Spirit but rather the Holy Spirit is baptizing us into the Body of Christ (I Cor. 12:13, 27). Ephesians 4:4 says, "There is one body" which is the Body of Christ and which we are placed into by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 4:5 says that there is "one baptism" and the baptism by the Holy Spirit is this one baptism which is our seal of salvation. Please also notice that this is not a water baptism since it is performed by the Holy Spirit. The word "baptized" is often assumed to always be associated with water. However, we can conclude that this is not a water baptism because it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. If we are to believe that the baptism referred to in I Corinthians 12:13 is with water then we must also believe that water baptism is necessary for salvation. However, we know that NO physical works are required for salvation by reading Ephesians 2:8, and 9, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

So it is the baptism by the Holy Spirit that seals our salvation. We know this because it is through our baptism into the Body of Christ that we receive identification with Christs death, burial, and resurrection. Again, please remember that they Holy Spirit baptizes us upon our belief in the gospel (Eph. 1:13). Romans 6:3 says, "so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (This is our identification with Christs death). Romans 6:4 says "Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death" (identification with Christs burial.). Verse 4 also says "that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father even as we also should walk in newness of life." (Our identification with Christs resurrection). Verse five says "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God". As a result of us being identified with Christs death, burial, and resurrection then verse 22 says we are free from sin and we have "everlasting life". Verse 22 says "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." Therefore, we can conclude that our sealing by the Holy Spirit, which is a final, secure transaction, places us into the Body of Christ. As a result of the baptism (identification) by the Holy Spirit we receive everlasting life. We can count on that as being hidden in Christ and we will never be removed.

 

 
   
    Rev 2:1   Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;  
   
    Rev 2:2   I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:  
   
    Rev 2:3  And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.  
   
    Rev 2:4  Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.  
   
    Rev 2:5   Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Its Gods Word, and they are good verses, but what do they mean to you Bro ???

Ambassador quote..."Its Gods Word, and they are good verses, but what do they mean to you Bro  ???

 Bronzesnake reply... It means exactly what it says.

For consideration I would like to respectfully point out that the verses from Revelation are to churches, or some believe to church ages, but they are not written to individual believers.

In His Grace...

We will look at some scriptures that are used to support the opposition and well look at why those scriptures are used inappropriately when opposing eternal security. Basically there are three arguments that are used against eternal security. There is the argument based on the assumed effect of security teaching. There is also the argument based on observance of others, and finally there is the scriptural argument.

 

"Effect Argument": The first argument in opposition of eternal security that we are discussing is based on a belief that through teaching a secure state of salvation there will be an effect upon the believer that results in a careless manner of life. We will refer to this as the Effect Argument. It is feared by some that a believer will become unafraid of the consequences of sin if they are taught that they will never lose their salvation. Our first point of defense to this argument is:

1.) There are natural consequences to sin that are meant to deter believers from living a careless life. However, the consequence is not a loss of their standing as a Christian. When a believer sins they will suffer consequences here on earth and will also suffer loss at the Judgement Seat of Christ. What better scriptures to illustrate this point than from Corinthians? Paul writes to "them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus" at Corinth (I Cor. 1:2). Which means that the ones Paul is writing directly to are those who are saved. Pauls purpose for writing to the Corinthians was to rebuke them for their carnal behavior or their poor Christian conduct. In I Corinthians 11 they were inappropriately observing the Lords Supper. Verse 21 says that they were not waiting on one another, some eat out of hunger while others become drunk. In verse 30 we see the natural consequences of their actions taking affect. After over eating to satisfy their bellies and becoming drunk they become "weak and sickly". God has established a system of responses in our bodies that reacts in a way that corresponds to our actions. For example if we were to get drunk or overeat we may become sick or weak as the Corinthians did. Perhaps in our modern age when we become intoxicated the consequences could be even worse than sickness. We may injure or kill ourselves or someone else while driving intoxicated. Perhaps some of you may have experienced the results of being intoxicated by alcohol or maybe you have been the victim. There are many other things that can be done to our physical bodies that may trigger sufferings in our lives physically, mentally, emotionally, or spiritually. Im sure we can imagine the results such things as drug abuse, fornication, drunkenness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, stealing, etc. These natural consequences that we speak of can also be referred to as "sowing and reaping". Galatians 6:7, 8 say "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

 

God has established this system of response in order that we may be rebuked or chastened when we sin. We must make ourselves perfectly clear here on one point before continuing. The chastisement that we speak of here is not a super-natural response of God as judgement upon us but rather God has pre-programmed in our lives a natural response or consequence for our actions, good or bad. It is important that we understand that the sufferings that we experience today as members of the Body of Christ are different than the sufferings of the world prior to the current dispensation of Grace. In prior dispensations God placed super-natural judgements upon mankind as a result of their iniquities. For example in 2 Kings 2:23, 24 as Elisha went up to Bethel little children mocked him as they said "Go up, thou bald head". As punishment upon these children God sends two she bears out of the woods to attack 42 children. This type of judgment or chastisement is considered to be supernatural. However, today we suffer in our physical bodies as a natural (as opposed to supernatural) result of our sins, as the Corinthians did.

 

 We are the church. Jesus wasn't talking to buildings.

Bronzesnake  - "We are the church. Jesus wasn't talking to buildings."

No, Jesus wasn't talking to buildings, nor was he speaking to individuals.

We are part of a collective body made up of many parts, yet none of us by ourselves is that body anymore than my toe is is the totality of who I am. Together we are the Church, the called out ones. Individually we are sons of God.

The context of Revelation 2 is to specific churches (as you can see ) but the text does not mention individual churches.

If my church were to lose it's "candlestick" and stop being effective for God I would not cease to be His.  By the leading of His Spirit I would be led to another place to be of service to my Father, my King.

Nothing can snatch me from His Hand.
The context of Revelation will not contradict this Truth.

In His grace...

The question in this verse is what is this place that is spoken of?  Uniquely, the ESV translates it as "it's" place, as does the NIV, NASB, and NKJV.  The wording is possessive, not positional.  The purpose of any candle is to put out light.  Question, what would the purpose of my light in heaven filled with the glory of God serve?  Moreover, the image portrayed in this passage is one that Christ portrayed earlier in Matthew 5:13-16...


Again, is Jesus speaking of eternal consequence or temporal influence?  That is to say, is He speaking of an individual's standing before God, or that same individual's influence on a sickly and dark world?  Contextually, I believe that to say He is speaking of the salvific condition of the light bearer is in error; rather, that He speaks of that one's testimony to the lost.

Heurmenutic folks.  It's a marvelous thing! ;D

Hi John here:
It is too late to wast ones time. Let me be BLUNT, LOVINGLY, OK?

This subject is a good one to understand. It can be understood best as seen in correct VIRGIN settings, OK? Please know that 'i' am not endorsing the denomination's MEMBERSHIP that of the site below i will post. Yet, the Master gave 'instructions' in Matt. 23:3 & called them VIRGIN in Doctrine in Matt. 25.

So i personally find this below 'study' simplified by the very closely studied doctrine of the Sanctuary. Read Psalm's 77:13! And this study below is a VERY GOOD one. (Please SAVE the site! And yet, remember that Israel of old DID this actual WORK, yet they were LEFT 'DESOLATE'! Matt. 23:38)
Here is the site:

http://biblelight.net/temple.htm

---John
******

I want to correct something I mis-typed in my previous post.

I typed, "The context of Revelation 2 is to specific churches (as you can see ) but the text does not mention individual churches." It should have read ,"the text does not mention individuals".  Sorry.... it was a late night.

Allinall - Good post! You said it much better than I.

John the Baptist - I do not want to waste my time either, so perhaps it was time that I was "lovingly blunt".

I have no desire to get into one of your "circular" arguments in which you asked all the questions and refuse to respond coherently to any put forth to you. I asked the same sincere questions several times in the 'subverters of souls' thread under the "You Name It" tab without ever receiving a direct response.  Whether I had agreed or not a coherent, scriptural response would have at least let me understand what you were saying.

I did check out the "Seventh Day Adventist" (or Adventist like) link that you posted in reply, but quite honestly I don't consider going to your message board to get in another circular discussion, to be the same thing as a direct response from you (huh?).

And I preferred not to e-mail you directly. As the conversation and the questions had been public it seemed fitting , and possibly edifying to others (that is why we post after all ), to have the responses in the same fashion.

You seem like a nice guy, and I do not question your sincerity, so let me post those same questions here, yet another time.

1. Scripturally, how do you consider the two covenants to instead be one combined covenant?

2. If you believe that the Old Covenant was not abolished how do you view 2 Corinthians chapter 3, and Hebrews chapter 8 ?

The specific verses are:

"But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" 2 Corinthians 3: 7-8.

"For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. " Hebrews 8:7

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrew 8:13.

Unless you are going to respond directly, scripturally, and coherently, then please.....don't waste my time.


In His Good And Everlasting Grace....

What is a testament/covenant?

A contract.

So in the old contract we have the law/10 comandments +.  Jesus paid the price and the old contract is fullfilled.

Now we have the new contract, which is mentioned in the old contract and it is reported that the old contract would end and the new one would take over.

So what are the rules of the new contract?

John 3:16

So, therefore, when Ye have fullfilled the requirements of the new contract you have the benefits of the new contract. (Heaven as your home)

What if you break the requirements of the new contract?

Well what happens when any contract is broken, the preveiling party comes and takes his property.  We are the property and the owning party is God.  when You place your name on the line you become his.  

you say you do not want to be his any longer but he has a contract with your name written on it.  so it does not matter what you want, you are bought with a price, you do not belong to you anymore; so you have to now live with the King of Kings who bought you with a price.  No one can snatch them out of his hand, not even yourself.

It does not matter what you want anylonger, once you place your X on the line you are crucified with Christ, you no longer live but it is Christ that lives with in you.  you have died and there is a new resident living within the temple and He says it is his dwelling place.  His house/castle/humble abode ETC.  

You have no rights because dead people can't talk for themselves, so the King of kings who is your Advocate/lawyer who has Power of Attorney Speaks for you and he is also the Judge, And that is not to Shabby, the Judge is the Attorney.  

so on one hand the Attorney calls the owner and asks who owns the property, Oh ,I forgot to Add that the owner is the Attorney who is the Judge, who is also the one who wrote the contract in the first place,  It looks like He has conspired with Himself to keep us in His home forever.  

You know this is getting us no-where because we can't win back our soul once we have given it willfully to the new resident/Owner/Attorney/Contract writer/Judge Jesus

In I Corinthians 3:12, 13 we are told that our works will be made manifest. Good works and bad works will be rewarded accordingly. Verse 14 says "If any mans" work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward." 15 "If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss." Notice now what Paul says "but he himself shall be saved". The fact is that as believers our works will be rewarded accordingly. However, we will be saved. Other scriptures to support this point are Romans 14:10 and II Corinthians 5:10.

 

"How do we know who (other than ourselves) is actually saved and who is not?"

We can rest in our own salvation but we cannot know for sure who else is saved because it is only God who knows who are His (II Timothy 2:19). Therefore, if we do not know who is saved, then how can we judge who has lost their salvation? Viewing a persons lifestyle is not an accurate and reliable way of determining ones spiritual condition. It would be quite judgmental and presumptuous of us to come to a conclusion based merely on outward performance, especially since it is not our outward performance that saves us.

 

Hi, you must have a guilty conscience for every time I run into you, you are telling me that you are saved, over & over it is stated (bottom line!) so one day you will come to the place that you really believe that false message! Then it will be by, by, for you will be un/reachable if you are not so all ready! Had you ever read Paul's comments in Phil. 3:12-18
(17-18) :'(  Nevermind! Just foget that 'i' asked.
--John
*****

Thank you for your informative post, but I must take issue with your exegesis....


This is, at best, selectively quoting the scriptures.  First, there are numerous texts that say we need to do things in addition, to what God has done for us to stay in the grace of God: Baptism (Acts 2:38, 22:16,  1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16), Works (10:17-31, James 2:12-26, Matthew 25:31-46) and enduring until the end (Matt 24:13).  All of these verses either mention salvation, justification, the forgiveness of sins etc. and none of them mention faith alone. While they are all done through God's grace, all of these verses necessitate human action.


Because point one is demonstrably false then point two must also be false, and the biblical record bears this out.  First lets look at the verses you quoted:



I must point out that all the things that St. Paul mentions here are things that are external to the believer.  The text does not say "neither adultery, nor murder, nor any other sin can seperate us from God."   In fact, in his first epistle to the Corinthians, he mentions things that can specifically seperate us from God:

 (1 Cor 6:9-11)

Paul emphatically declares that although the Corinthians were involved with those activities, but they are now christians and these things are not to be done by them anymore. Unfortunately that's exactly what they had been up to, which necessitated Paul's letter to them.  If they continued in sin, they would not inherit the kingdom.



This verse cannot possibly be used to support Eternal Security for several reasons.  First, Paul nowhere says that the Phillipians had a sure ticket to heaven because he only says that he is confident that the good work will carry it on to completion.  Had he known of the Phillipians eternal security, he would've made the language absolutely certain that they would all be in heaven.  

The rest of the letter bears this out because he warns the Phillipians to "work out their salvation with fear and trembling."  Had they been eternally secure, this verse would make absolutely no sense whatsoever.  Moreover, Paul says explicitly that his salvation had not been attained yet:



Paul also explains the uncertainty of his salvation to the Corinthians:


Paul's explanation of the apostasy of Israel in the following chapter also gives this warning greater depth.  Although the Israelites had been "baptized into Moses" (like Christian baptism) and ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink that we drink (Holy communion), but despite this fact, God was not pleased with most of them and only Caleb and Joshua made it through the desert.  In addition, to say that these people weren’t “true believers” is ludicrous.  This is because the faith of this generation is mentioned in Hebrews 11 along with a group of the greatest Old Testament saints who were no doubt true believers(Hebrews 11:29).  Paul also mentions doubt of the salvation of another individual in his second letter to Timothy:

16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. (2 Tim 1:16-18)

Although Onesiphorus was no doubt a good man of God (since he was dedicated to Paul despite the fact that virtually everyone had abandoned him), but Paul abstains from using language of Onesiphorus’ final destination.  All of this lends a lot more credibility to conditional security than unconditional security.

I’m not sure how this verse proves eternal security because verse 12 pretty much makes it clear that if disown Jesus, he will disown us (counterbalanced by the enduring verse).  Verse 13 is the only thing that could possibly be used in to argue eternal security and  this  is absurd for 2 reasons 1) the proceeding verse and 2) the fact that both believers in eternal and conditional security believe that God is a loving God.  All verse 13 proves is that God loves us with an eternal love, however if we “trample the Son of God under foot” all we can expect is judgement.  Paul pleaded with the Galatians to return to the Gospel and said that they had “fallen from grace.”  Why would Paul desperately warn the Corinthians to be reconciled to God or warn them of falling away, why would the writer of Hebrews contain so many explicit warnings if Christians really had no possibility of falling away from salvation?  





These arguments all take one statement that is obviously true and wed them to a statement that is false by false comparison.  None of the verses you listed explicitly state that because the Christian enjoys the privileges listed that they can be certain that they won’t fall away.  For example, instead of using imagery of Christ separating parts of his body, he uses imagery of Vines and the branches being cut off and burned (John 15:1-8), Paul also uses this same imagery (Romans 11:11-24).  Just because Christ and the Apostles used the imagery to describe the actual event of becoming a Christian doesn’t mean that the same imagery can be used to refute claims that they explicitly dealt with, either by using literal writing, parables or imagery.


Where does it say that works can’t keep us saved?  Paul (Romans 2:5-16), Jesus (Matt 25:31-46) and James (James 2:14-26) all say that our salvation is dependent on works.  



At least you deal more honestly with the passages in question than do most believers of eternal security.  However, your only recourse to prevent you from taking these verses to their logical conclusion is to rely on a human tradition invented by John Nelson Darby a little over 100 years ago!  I must ask, how do you know when the Jewish Dispensation ended.  Did a bell toll and all the churches in the ancient world automatically say “thank goodness these verses aren’t part of the scriptures anymore!”?  In addition, how do you rebuke liberal Protestants, Diests and the Jesus Seminar folks when they ignore or toss out scriptures because they don’t agree with their presuppositions.  I guess I shouldn’t be surprised though, this type of reasoning isn’t new to Protestantism.  Afterall, it was Luther who excluded James from his canon of scripture because it obviously contradicted his man made “faith only” theory.

While I appreciate your concern for me having absolute assurance of salvation, I came to the conclusion a long time ago that Eternal Security is utterly foreign to both Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition.

Sincerely,
Bill

Thanks John Boy and Billy, as you both know, by my studies I know your both wrong.  ;D ;D

The Following is from the writings of Harry Wellington, I have added this to my studies. You can read the entire study at: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/3717/wellington3.html

Yes, it is an indisputable scriptural fact, that once a person has been scripturally saved, that person has been irreversibly saved for both time and eternity.

Salvation, is a once in a lifetime, instantaneous, irreversible event. It is received entirely "BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH" and is the "GIFT" of God, i.e., as being totally apart from any form or degree of human merit; that is, "NOT OF OURSELVES" e.g. Eph 2:8,9, Titus 3:5, Rom 10:9-10, Gal 2:16,23. etc.

Salvation, is therefore in no way dependent upon performing any one of the external rites, and rituals, encountered in any one of mankind's numerous religious bodies. Salvation is indeed the free gift of God's Grace, as freely bestowed upon all who truly seek it, through unfeigned faith in Christ Jesus.

Hi, John here: Why not start your own thread? Good material!
It would be nice 'seperated' from the other printed stuff that you are having to deal with here. This way some of us could print your sound remarks for use elsewhere? (if there were no objection's from you-I don't see any copy right infringments by the forum anywhere?)

Yet, you are surely not getting through to one of these 'finished' once saved ones of Heb. 1-6, 'me' thinks? (if he is converted in the first place ???)
--John
*****

If you wanted to start a new thread with the material I posted, that's fine by me.  I won't be in town for a couple of days so if you want to put it up immediately for discussion that's cool.

Sincerely,
Bill

If you were to die right now and God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into my heaven?" Could you now say with confidence based on the authority of the Word of God, Because Christ died "FOR" my sins!

Ambassador4Christ, don't you have any shame? Just about every post that you've made on this thread has been lifted off other websites on the net.

You've stolen heavily from this copyrighted article:

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.com/studies/study12.html

By posting copyrighted material and trying to pass it off as your own, aren't you just plain sinning?

You must be "The Crusader" from before the hack. He did the same thing all the time.

Sure LOL  ;D ;D ;D Whats with you?  ;D

Christ died for sinners. He died for you and for me. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:21. Knowing that WE ARE ALL SINNERS we need to understand that God will pour out His wrath upon sin. Romans 2:5, 6 says "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Romans 6:23 says "For the wages of sin is DEATH; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Please read Revelation 20:10 - 15 for a description of "death") In order to avoid Gods wrath, all of our sins must be remitted. Websters dictionary defines remit as "to release from the guilt or penalty of". God has provided a way to be TOTALLY forgiven for our sins and that way is Jesus Christ, Gods Son. Romans 3:25 " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;". God will FREELY impute (credit) the righteousness of Christ for your justification. Romans 3:24 says "Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:". Now all that you must do to receive this free gift is BELIEVE. Romans 3:26 says "To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justifier of Him which believeth in Jesus.

No matter how sinful your life has been God can save you by the completed work of Jesus Christ at the Cross. Simply know that you are a sinner in need of a Saviour and that God will punish sin. Know that Christ died on the cross for your sins and was raised on the third day for your justification. Know that salvation is a free gift by the grace of God. Believe in Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and God will give you eternal life. Its that simple!

Hi, John here:
Is this your Christiasn converted brother?   :'( Read Rev. 18:4. And the Lord will rest His case with [your] freedom of DECISION! The word is not shame, it is CONSCIENCE! Have you read the Words of 'Quench' & 'Grieve' in the Master's Word? See Gen. 6:3 for the Holy Spirits STRIVING! And James 1:15 for sin's FINISHED work.

By the way, the sites owner is now an open partaker of this crime, & evil work,  huh?---John
************************

It's such a shame John that you trust in yourself and not the LORD Jesus.  You keep distorting what you read to make yourself your saviour and not Christ.  According to you Christs blood was not good enough to cover our sins but your FILTHY works can.  So sad John so sad.

Matthew 1;21-And she will bring forth a Son,and you shall call His name Jesus,for He will save His people from their sins.

Matthew 18;11-For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Ephesians 2;8-For by grace are ye saved through faith;and that not of yourselfs;it is the gift of God.

2;8-The grace of God is the expression of His goodness toward the undeserving. Grace means unmerited favor,and can be expressed by the acrostic God's Riches At Christ's Expense. This grace is the basis of our salvation (1;7,2;8).
Illustration;In salvation men who deserve hell obtain heaven. This cannot be explained apart from God's grace. Every conversion in Scripture is an example of God;s grace.
When Paul (Saul) met the Lord on the Damascus Road,Paul was a persecutor of the church. Yet God made him one of the church's chief preacher's.

We need to remember that we are saved,given the Holy Spirit,and allowed to serve God-by His grace.

Ephesians 2;9-The reason in part,that salvation is not achieved by good works is to prevent men from bragging of having earned a place in heaven by themselves.

You have to washed in the Blood of the Lamb.If you backslide and go back doing the things you did before,You Are Not Saved.You to come back to Jesus and repent of your sins. If you don't do this [repent of your sins] you are going to hell.

God Bless.

So if I hear you correctly, you are saying that the bride can divorce the groom.  wife divorce the Husband.  Thereby becoming unsaved?