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Religious tolerance  

The following question was sent to me on December 18, 2003, My answer will follow.

Question: Personally I think you should mind your own business about everyone's personal beliefs on religion. I think it is disgusting how you can even waste your time thinking of new ways to criticize a person's religion.

My Answer: I assume that you cherish religious tolerance and that you believe that every person should be allowed to practice his religion according to his own conscience without being coerced or forced to change his convictions. I believe that too.

It seems to me that you take the religious tolerance principle too far. You probably feel that every person should 'mind his own business' because it does not really matter what a person believes as long as he is sincere. You would probably accept a Moslem, a Hindu, a Protestant and a Roman Catholic and consider their respective religions as valid even though there is total disagreement between them. You sacrifice truth on the altar of subjectivity.

Even so, you are inconsistent with your own principles. Why do you intrude in my personal beliefs and religion? Since you are tolerant of other people's religious convictions, why don't you respect my convictions too? - my conviction that there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. I'm certain that there is a right way to life and another way that leads to destruction. Being sure of this, I would be cruel and callous if I don't warn those who are walking along the wrong path. Jesus warned the people about false doctrines and false teachers. So did the apostles. So did Christians throughout the centuries. And so, by the grace of God, I shall continue to do.

I know you cannot tolerate this intolerance on my part! But please note that you don't tolerate me because you feel that what I'm doing is wrong. I don't tolerate the errors of Catholicism which keeps millions of people from the salvation that is in Christ. Surely you don't blame me for that!
 
 

Seeing as the following message we sent to you, why can't you just send it back? Is there a reason why you have to post it for all the world to see? ;)

I did, and I posted it here. ;D

lol now you're just egging him on, again ;D

Have I told you today, I Love You Bro ;D

hahaha, I love you to man ;D ;)

Well it wasn't me who sent it to you, but for ONCE - I must (dare I say it???) AGREE with A4C!

Although - we agree from two different poles of the earth LOL!

You are right in saying this, "my conviction that there is such a thing as truth and falsehood. I'm certain that there is a right way to life and another way that leads to destruction. Being sure of this, I would be cruel and callous if I don't warn those who are walking along the wrong path. Jesus warned the people about false doctrines and false teachers. So did the apostles. So did Christians throughout the centuries. And so, by the grace of God, I shall continue to do."  I also echo your sentiments, but - as you know - I am coming from a different belief system than you.

As a Traditional Roman Catholic, I can honestly say that I don't buy into the whole "religious tolerance" either.  Yes, one must respect another person but one does not need to respect another's beliefs especially if those beliefs will lead them down the wide road to eternal hell fire and in this I mean we do not have to say, "Well leave him to his beliefs because he is happy where he is."  We have a responsibility as Christians to correct and lead and help others KNOW Christ - the RIGHT WAY!

A4C - you are right in that we do have a responsibility to humbly lead others to Christ and that's where the key lies - in humility - not out of pride, which leads the soul to destruction.

PS - I do, however, disagree with the way you handled this person's question to you.  You could have shown a little more tact.  If the person was PM'ing you, then perhaps you should have kept the exchange between you and he/she instead of humiliating the person in "public".  You showed a lack of christian charity in the way you went about this.

All my money was on you Ave. Well, now I really wonder...

Anyways, who ever it was, thanks.

ITS FRIDAY ;D  ALL GOOD ROMAN catholics EAT FISH <;>>><

Whaaaat its Friday already??

Bring on the Steak and potatoes.....mmmmmhhh, smothered in onions and garlic, a ittle garlic taost, well done..

Oh man....................

Petro

It's ok, I had Subways. ;D

Bad catholic ;D

Really a BAD catholic ;D

If I might interject your joking and irreverance towards Catholic Christians and their practice of fasting and abstaining from meat on Friday.  There are others who read these posts other than the two or three of you who want to act like you are 15 years old and bully those different from you and those people may be interested in the reasons why we abstain.

"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the desert, for the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil.  And He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, He was hungry."  (Luke 4:1-2)

Friday itself remains a special day of penitential observance throughout the year, a time when those who seek perfection will be mindful of their personal sins and the sins of mankind which they are called upon to help expiate in union with Christ Crucified;

Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday be freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ;  

We shall thus freely and out of love for Christ Crucified show our solidarity with the generations of believers to whom this practice frequently became, especially in times of persecution and of great poverty, no mean evidence of fidelity in Christ and his Church.

We shall thus also remind ourselves that as Christians, although immersed in the world and sharing its life, we must preserve a saving and necessary difference from the spirit of the world. Our deliberate, personal abstinence from meat, more especially because no longer required by law, will be an outward sign of inward spiritual values that we cherish.

I expect some of you to continue your freshman-like joking and sacrilige and that's ok because I know others on here do have an interest.

Ave, some things are just not worth getting offended over. This is one of them. Might as well join in the fun, no need to start a war on all fronts.

Basicly, I think you need to relax. There are issue that are more important then when and how we fast. Relax, take a breath, and smile. People think Catholics arn't Christians, and you are getting upset over people who joke about diet?

Basicly, I think you need to relax. There are issue that are more important then when and how we fast. Relax, take a breath, and smile. People think Catholics arn't Christians, and you are getting upset over people who joke about diet?

Tibby - I understand your need to get them to "accept" you as a brother in Christ....I - as I explained earlier - do not particularly feel the need to "fit in" with non-Catholics.

First off, fasting and abstaining from meat on Fridays is not a "diet".   IT's a practice of the Church and has always been.

Second, Your style isn't my style.  Perhaps I don't want to "join in the fun" when the fun is at our Lord's expense.

Not upset, just neutral.  I am a teacher and educator by nature and our biggest obsticle as Catholic CHristians is to show non-Catholics what we believe and why we believe it.

I was a Fundie for over ten years, so sorry - had my fill of sarcasm at Catholic's expense - at Our Lord's expense and at Our Lady and the Saint's expense.

All is good friend.  All is good.   ;D

PS - not everyone who comes on this board finds people like A4C funny and representative of what a "born again" christian is...Trust me on that one ;)

I am starting to cry :'(

<;)))>< Your fish for next friday  ;D

Hail Mary ;D

How many times need I tell you that I don't like fish, but cool drawing!! LOL

Meatless pasta will do for me or a cheese pizza!

It isn't an issue of "fitting in." It is a thing of picking your battles. If I wanted to "fit in" I would join the local fundie church and spend my spare time hating other chirstians. I don't wish to "fit in" I just do not see this as an issue to battle about, when there are much greater things to talk about.

What is a diet? And eating Pattern. A fast is an eating pattern, and one that is a part of the Catholics normal eating pattern.

P.S. No one finds A4C funny ;) ;D We just try to make him feal good.  ;D

DITTO ;D

Tibby - What is a diet? And eating Pattern. A fast is an eating pattern, and one that is a part of the Catholics normal eating pattern.

Have you ever researched the "why" in Friday Fasting?  Perhaps you ought to.  It's nowhere near a "diet" or an "eating pattern".  

You must be post Vatican II.  LOL LOL ;)  ;D

lol, actually, I am post V II ;D I’m VERY strongly in support of it. Someone had to fix the work of the cranky old men at Trent ;) ;D

I do respect and understand the Roman Tradition and the history behind the Friday fast.

What I meant by diet, I didn't mean A die,t like the Atken's diet or the Sout hBeach diet. Whe nI said diet, I was referring the what your eating habits. For example, cave men lived on a diet of T-Rex meat and berries. College students live on a diet of pizza, beer, and coffee ( ;D ). I wasn't referring to diet as in a way to lose weight, I was referring to it was your food intake.

----->lol, actually, I am post V II  I’m VERY strongly in support of it. Someone had to fix the work of the cranky old men at Trent

Thought as much. :P

Don't tell me you're a Traditionalist... ;) Had a good ol' Latin mass to day, did ya? ;D :P

LOL Hail Mary ;D

Right On!!!!

Thanks Brother I needed that.

Grace & Peace

Brother Love :)

IT's a practice of the Church and has always been.

 ::) If you're going to do it, shouldn't it be for 40 days?  ::)
"And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the desert, for the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil.  And He ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, He was hungry."  (Luke 4:1-2)


as I explained earlier - do not particularly feel the need to "fit in" with non-Catholics.

Apparently, you just feel the need to convert 'heretics' (non- Catholics) to your religion. Though why you think anyone would leave a relationship with Christ is beyond me.

Why yes, of course I am.  I love the Traditional Latin Mass. ;)

Yeah, it is called lent ;) ;D




What!? What are you talking about?

Yeah, it is called lent  :P

Goes right along with Mardi Gras... ;D

And He ate nothing in those days;

So shouldn't it be just the way Jesus did it? What did He eat? Did He give up just meat and have fish instead (or veggies)? Now come on, if you're gonna do it- do it right!

What!? What are you talking about?

Oops, sorry. Forgot to answer....

Oh yeah, and this one from her:

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=529328&CategoryID=247374&startcat=1&ThreadID=1128945 (http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=529328&CategoryID=247374&startcat=1&ThreadID=1128945)

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No, not everything we do should be JUST like Jesus. What would Jesus do? Good Question, but isn’t a better one What would Jesus have me do? You are to be like Jesus, but not him. You can’t be him. We all have different skills given to us, some that Jesus didn’t display on this Earth.

Now, about Fasting on Friday specifically, first of all, Ave is a Old Good Fashion Latin Mass Traditionalist Catholic. Most Roman’s don’t follow the Friday fast Tradition, as most Catholic are Post-Vatican II. Secondly, this Friday fast isn’t talking about Jesus’ 40 days. The Truth is, the Early church started it all, with Wednesday and Friday fasts. This stems from the Jewish tradition of fasting on Monday and Thursday. The First Christians changed it out of spite. The Friday fast has nothing to do with the Lent Fast, you are confusing 2 traditions. From what I hear, the Eastern Rite, Anglicans, Methodists still do the fast on both days. Mostly, this tradition has all but died out in the Western Catholic and Episcopal Church.

Actually Tibster, I was referring to the post of hers on 'diet' where ave pulled the verse that specifically mentioned Jesus going without food for 40 days.
Then you brought up lent.  ;)
So I mentioned Mardi Gras.  ;D

Good Question, but isn’t a better one What would Jesus have me do?

So Jesus would have someone give up meat on Fridays? Hmmmm....

No, it would have them fast Mondays, as he was a Jew. Hey, this isn't a Catholic thing, it in an Early Church thing. You ahve a Problem with it, take it up with the masterminds, Peter and Paul and James. ;) ;D

About the other stuff, you can’t lump all Catholics in with them. That is like lumping all Protestants in with the Anti-Catholics. Rome accepts you as a Brother. Most Catholics accept you as a brother.  

My "ministry" has nothing to do with this board.  Because I am a former Independent Fundamental Baptist, I write to Baptist Pastors in hopes that they will convert, yes.  I do this out of strong conviction in what I believe.  I do this because I used to be a part of what they believe and feel strongly driven to show them misunderstandings in their anti-Catholicism.  I have dealt with so much hatred from these men that call themselves "Pastors".  I have shuddered at some of the things they have called me and called other Catholics.  There is nothing wrong with evangelizing whatsoever and if this is where the Lord is leading me, then I shall follow, even if I receive abuse and foul language, filthy anti-Catholic jokes and all.  I will take it for the sake of my Lord!

So what of it?  Do you think I am "hiding" something?  I think it's pretty clear when I post here that I am trying my hardest to show the Truth in the Catholic Church and help lift the veil of anti-Catholicism and educate.  And yes, if any of you do convert to the One True Church that Jesus CHrist established (matthew 16) than Praise God.  At least I am evangelizing and "witnessing" and not practicing hate!  I asked for prayers for that pastor because he was unbelievably hateful to me and I couldn't understand how he could call himself a shepherd of a flock.  

You would think all of you would be on the same mission in trying to convert Catholics if you truly believed what you said you believe, but no, most of what I see is you all trying to disprove CAtholicism through hate and bias and NOT witnessing to what you call truth.

Sincere heart - what was your purpose in "exposing" what you did?  What was your intent behind it?  Was this out of charity and love or was this to humiliate and turn people away from me?   I see this a lot on this board and it's really quite sad.  Why not give me a straight answer as to why you felt the need to do that and was it driven out of love for another person?

If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema." (Canon 14).

    Justification is the legal declaration by God upon the sinner where God declares the sinner righteous in His sight.  This justification is based completely and solely on the work of Christ on the cross.  We cannot earn justification or merit justification in any way.  If we could, then Christ died needlessly.  "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly," (Gal. 2:21).  Because righteousness cannot come through the Law (through our efforts of merit), the Bible declares that we are justified before God by faith:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law," (Rom. 3:28).
"For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness," (Rom. 4:3).
"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).
     However, in Roman Catholicism, justification by faith is denied.

"If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed," (Canon 12, Council of Trent).

    Which are we to believe?  The Roman Catholic Church or God's word?  Furthermore, the RCC states that justification is received not by faith, but by baptism.   The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraph, 1992, that "...justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith."   This means that faith is not the instrument of obtaining justification; instead, it is an ordinance performed by a priest in the Roman Catholic Church.  
     Furthermore, baptism is only the initial grace along the road of justification.  The Roman Catholic is to then maintain his position before God by his efforts.  

"No one can MERIT the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can MERIT for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods," (Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027).

     The problem here is that the RCC is teaching us to "merit for ourselves and for others all the graces need to attain eternal life."  You cannot merit grace.  Grace is unmerited favor.  Merit is according to the CCC, par. 2006, "...the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment..." CCC 2006.  This means that merit is something owed.  By contrast, grace is something not owed.  Therefore, the RCC is teaching contrary to God's word regarding grace and justification.
    The sad result is that in Roman Catholicism, justification before God is a process that is maintained by the effort and works of the Roman Catholic.  This is a very unfortunate teaching since it puts the unbearable burden of works righteousness upon the shoulders of the sinner.  By contrast, the Bible teaches that justification/salvation is by faith.

"But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness," (Rom. 4:5).
"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God," (Eph. 2:8).

A4C - are you capable of making a thought all by yourself or do you feel more secure cutting and pasting anti-Catholic trash?  Just wondering.

Is there something you want to discuss?  Justification and salvation?  Start a new thread and try using your own thoughts.

I Quote Your Roman catholic cult religion:(Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC), par. 2027).(((Your Thoughts)))
 And I Quote Gods Word (the B-I-B-L-E) (((My Thoughts)))

Hail Mary ;D

Anglicans?  Fast?   Talk about it, maybe.  

You also seem a bit confused - the Episcopal Church is the Anglican Church in America (& Scotland).

Like I said, I hear the Anglicans and Methodist do it, but I’ve nothing to back it up with, that I just what I heard. The most I know about Anglicans is the little talks I have every now and then with the Local Episcopal Priest.

Yes, I know the Episcopal are Anglicans in America. That is what I was saying. The majority of the Western Catholics and Anglicans in America don’t follow this Tradition as their International Brothers do, as far as I've seen. I just thought putting Episcopal would save me the time of having to type out Anglicans in America. Guess not. ;D

Besides, if I had put “Anglicans in America” someone would have replied with “You seem a bit confused, the Anglicans in America are the Episcopals”  haha ;D

's a bit clearer now.

I think you'd be hard placed to find many Anglicans anywhere in the world that take fasting seriously.  (Or methodists, for that matter.)

I think that is modern Christians in General. In a world when comfort has become a necessity, fasting is a lost practice.

Sincere heart - what was your purpose in "exposing" what you did?  What was your intent behind it?  Was this out of charity and love or was this to humiliate and turn people away from me?  I see this a lot on this board and it's really quite sad.  Why not give me a straight answer as to why you felt the need to do that and was it driven out of love for another person?

Now how would it turn people away from you or humiliate you? You 'speak' with much pride and authority on your own forum. Is there anything that you've said there that you don't believe or that you're ashamed of?

It was driven out of love for the Christians on this board who may have felt that you had stumbled in here quite by accident. But since you have your own forum where there is much bashing of Protestants they may not have known that. They may not have known that you consider us 'heretics' and that you think we cannot possibly be saved since we are not part of the ROMAN Catholic Church. And they may not realize that your 'mission' is to convert people to your religion. Once they are truly aware of your purpose, they will be better able to discuss things with you. However, they may not know that everything you bring up here has been discussed on your forum.

I believe that answers your question. :)

edited to add quote from avemaria.....

Oh really?  Pride huh?  Ashamed of?  No way!  Just curious of your reasons behind doing what you did, although I suspect I know...


Why would anyone think that?  I never said that was the case.  In fact, I was never asked.  I have been popping in and out of here for a while.  And yeah, right, did it out of love for the others on here.  Who do you think you are kidding?

I said nothing in that quote that is anything different than what I have been saying here.  So again, what is your intent?  TO try to discredit another person to make yourself look better.  That wouldn't surprise me one bit.

PS - the "board" I was speaking of was not this board, whether that will have any merit or not or whether you care to believe me or not.  Doesn't really matter.

I have strong convictions in what I believe as some of you have strong convictions in what you believe.  Some of you have gone as far as calling me and all other Roman Catholics the "anti-christ" and we have been called a "cult" and many other nasty things.  So what of it?

Again, I have nothing to hide.  My beliefs I wear on my sleeve.  You can cruise my message board all you want.  Doesn't prove I have been "deceptive" on this board one bit.  But, then again, many of your arguments fall flat so this isn't any different!

I have been popping in and out of here for a while.

::)

Some of you have gone as far as calling me and all other Roman Catholics the "anti-christ" and we have been called a "cult" and many other nasty things.

Hmmmm.... wasn't me so that was a pointless statement, unless you're looking for sympathy.

So again, what is your intent?  TO try to discredit another person to make yourself look better.

Since I haven't been involved in any debate/discussion with you less the ONE post I made to in response to your 'Hail Mary' stuff then it wouldn't be to make myself look better.  ;)

Again, I have nothing to hide.  My beliefs I wear on my sleeve.  You can cruise my message board all you want.  Doesn't prove I have been "deceptive" on this board one bit.

ROFL! But you've temporarily cleared your board and we can't 'see' your 'sleeve'..... But I've no doubt you've saved it and will re-post it later. So we can save those links just in case. :)

But, then again, many of your arguments fall flat so this isn't any different!

Now that IS amazing since I haven't argued' with you.

Hey, Mr. Center-of-the-Universe, maybe you are not the only person meant to see this topic! ;) Maybe Ave we talking to all the anti-Catholics. Hey, just a thought.

Good answer Ambassador, I agree.

The Crusader