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Pease give reason for your answer.


Brother Love  :)

Now, I think you know how the answers are going to come out, so why even ask?

First of all, Roman Catholicism can not be a “false religion” because it is not a religion in it self, it is a denomination of the Christian Religion.

Second, the Roman accept all of you to be their brothers. To not accept them sounds more like a personal problem to me.

Three, Why most we give a reason to prove RCC isn’t a cult, but there is no such demand on the other poll options. I say the ones who say RCC is a cult to “Give Reasons Why” more then the one who say it is Christian, don’t you?

What is what us? Are Baptist Christians? Are Charismatics Christians? Are Catholics Christian? Are we trying to offend each other hear? Are we looking for excuses to fight? Don’t we fight enough without attacking each others personal beliefs? Why don’t we take things one issue at a time, instead of attacking whole groups?

This kind of post just stems from years of anti-Catholic bigotry and bias.  I actually feel really sorry for those who really are steeped in it.

Perhaps reading actual Catholic material and reading Sacred Scripture from a Catholic position will enlighten.

After studying the 1994 Catechism, one cannot help but notice several major differences between Catholic doctrine and the Bible.

First and foremost is that both consistently teach conflicting doctrines. The Catechism's claim that the Bible and Catholic tradition work together to bring about the salvation of souls is simply not true.

Secondly, the Catechism contains an endless list of complicated and often confusing rules which all Catholics must follow to please their church.

The Bible, on the other hand, is simple, straight-forward, consistent and easy to understand. Here is an example.

Who will go to heaven?

The Bible could not be any more explicit on the subject of eternal destiny, which is to be expected from God on such an important topic:

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36  

Here's another example. Jesus Himself preached:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24  

That is very easy to understand. Now let's see what the Catechism says on the same subject. Here is an exact quote:

"By virtue of our apostolic authority, we define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints... and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died,... or, if they then did need or will need some purification, when they have been purified after death,...) already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment - and this since the Ascension of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into heaven - have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. Since the Passion and death of our Lord Jesus Christ, these souls have seen and do see the divine essence with an intuitive vision, and even face to face, without mediation of any creature." Pg. 267, #1023

Who could possibly understand that?

Why is such a simple Bible concept made so confusing? Surely God wants everyone to understand how to get to heaven. Would a truly loving God make the rules for reaching heaven so complex that nobody could understand them?

Consider also the following verse of Scripture:

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

If God is not the author of this confusing list of Catholic rules, then who is?

Don' t be deceived

The Bible even warns us about being deceived by those who complicate the simple things of Christ:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtility, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3

Could God be attempting to warn you about the Catholic church? God made His Word simple because He is:

"...not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

God wants you in heaven. That' s why He keeps His Word simple.

Conclusion

God does not want you to be confused. If the Catechism and Catholic doctrine have ever left you feeling confused, perhaps you should begin putting your trust in God's Word:

"In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion." Psalm 71:1
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Good subject Brother Love,  ;D

At this time its 50% it is Christian.
And 50% that its a False Religion.

"Grace & Peace"

Reading this does enlighten, to one who believes the truth of Gods Word, that what is written in this material is clearly not of God.

As for what does Sacred Scipture from the Catholic perspective enlightening with the truith, that is matter of opinion.


Petro

There are about seven principle signs that identify a cult. Now when one hears the word "cult," the first connotation is that of some strange obscure religious group. But for our discussion the word cult is simply a word that describes organized heresy. In other words, any religious group that systematically teaches false doctrine. Knowing some of these signs is key to preventing people from following these cults.

The sign we will focus on here is the teaching of exclusivity. Cults will declare that they are the only way to heaven. Apart from them there is no salvation. They alone are the repositories of truth and all must join them to be saved. Here one might say, "yea, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Mormons." But to infer, let alone say, that Catholicism is in this class, is to be condemned as a hate monger or Catholic basher.

To demonstrate that Roman Catholicism bears the mark of a cult is quite easy indeed. If we were left to our opinions and personal interpretations, it might be difficult, but Rome has supplied a mass (no pun intended) of evidence to use. For example:

1) "WE BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION BECAUSE CHRIST, WHO IS THE SOLE MEDIATOR AND EXCLUSIVE WAY OF SALVATION, RENDERS HIMSELF PRESENT FOR US IN HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH. WE MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY, WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, IS OPEN TO NO ONE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."
Pope Paul VI

2) "THE HOLY UNIVERSAL CHURCH PROCLAIMS THAT GOD CANNOT TRULY BE WORSHIPPED SAVE WITHIN HERSELF, AND ASSERTS THAT ALL THEY WHO ARE WITHOUT HER PALE SHALL NEVER BE SAVED."
Pope Gregory the Great (Now how is that for ecumenism!)

3) "THE CHURCH IS LIKE THE ARK OF NOAH, OUTSIDE OF WHICH NOBODY CAN BE SAVED."
Thomas Aquinas.

4) "THAT THERE IS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WE ARE COMPELLED TO BELIEVE AND TO HOLD, PROMPTED BY DIVINE FAITH, AND WE DO BELIEVE THIS FIRMLY AND CONFESS IT SIMPLY, OUTSIDE OF WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, OR REMISSION OF SINS…."
Pope Boniface VIII

5) "IT IS A SIN TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."
Pope Pius IX

6) "FOR IT IS THROUGH CHRIST’S CATHOLIC CHURCH ALONE, WHICH IS THE UNIVERSAL HELP TOWARDS SALVATION, THAT THE FULNESS OF THE MEANS OF SALVATION CAN BE OBTAINED."  
Vatican II

Now we have just cited six infallible sources of the Catholic Church to prove without reservations that they believe that they are the only way to heaven. Understand that they are saying that only Roman Catholics have a chance at going to heaven. This is classic cult mentality. The organization becomes the focus and the savior. Allow us to clearly illustrate this fact. In a recent debate with a Jesuit theologian, we were able to ask a very simple yet extremely important question. The question was "what do we have to do to go to heaven?" The answer that followed was very revealing. It clearly proved that Roman Catholicism teaches that every Baptist is going to hell, in addition to every Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. The Jesuit theologian said to go to heaven we must "do" several things. Firstly, believe the entire Bible. (Sounds like a fundamentalist.) Secondly, we must be baptized in water. Thirdly, we must keep the commandments. Fourthly, we must eat His flesh and drink His blood literally (in the sacrament of the mass). He mentioned a couple of others, but these four should suffice.

The Scripture clearly reveals to one and all that salvation comes from believing in the Lord Jesus Christ alone. (Cf. Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5) The entire book of Galatians was written to demonstrate the futility of believing that the Law justifies or saves anyone. But the "eating" and "drinking" the literal flesh and blood of the Lord Jesus Christ says it all. For according to Roman Catholic theology, this can only be done after a "priest"—and only a priest—says the words of consecration over the bread and wine. Hence, no Catholic Church, no priest. No priest, no Mass or transubstantiation. No transubstantiation, no eating His flesh or drinking His blood. No eating and drinking of Jesus literally, NO SALVATION!

We commend to your reading Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and 10. The mysticism is clearly not biblical and certainly not necessary for anyone to be saved. Their insistence on such heresies places them at the top of the list of religious cults. That statement may seem a bit harsh, but it is nonetheless true. Catholicism does not differ from any of the cults where our first sign is concerned. A closer look at the other signs of a cult further confirm the fact that Catholicism, while large in number, humanitarian in practice, is still unbiblical and perhaps the mother of all "Christian" cults.

The Roman Catholic Chruch teaches that Jesus was the Christ, the annointed of God, who became man and was crucified for our sins, arose from the dead and ascended into heaven.  The Roman Catholic Church also teaches that the only way to be saved is through the free gift offered by God's grace through a living faith (which by its very nature is dependent on works).

That sounds like the definition of Christian to me.

  The soteriology of RCC faith, in its kernal, is Arminian as are the majority of protestant denominations. Only the Reformed churches (which many call Calvinistic) disagree with Arminian doctrine. So if the Arminian protestants are concerned about RCC soteriology (salvation doctrine), they must also be concerned about themselves. Of course, no protestant denomination agrees with the RCC's belief that Mary and the saints are in anyway mediators between God and man. We believe, according to the Scripture that "There is one Mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ."
  BUT, BUT, BUT--I have fellowshipped with some RCC people
and their expressed enjoyment of Christ as their Saviour; their confidence in His work of atonement as their sole hope of reconciliation with God and their interest in Him as a sanctifying influence in their life convinced me that they were regenerate. We must remember that we are saved not by properly understanding Bible doctrine, but by Christ Himself and we come into that salvation in Him by realizing our own unworthiness, our need of His righteousness, and casting all our hope on Him. A person can be a Roman Catholic and truly believe in Christ. Martin Luther was clearly both a Catholic and a Christian at the time he was trying to stay with the RCC
and just correct its erroneous doctrines. I say let us not judge one another harshly. Fellowship with those who have a love of Christ. Fellowship in every point upon which we are in agreement, but do not ever yield on those points in which we have scriptural grounds for saying, "You do err, my brother."

I have read it cover to cover and the Bible as well (several translations - several times) and I for one did fail to see major differences.  I doubt you correctly understood most of what you read and that is where the differences come from as I will show below.


Your saying it is not true does not make it so – perhaps a little more effort on your part would be nice to show how this is not true.
 

You are confusing discipline with doctrine.  Doctrine involves the necessities of salvation, discipline involves the proper behavior for a fruitful walk.  One of those things involve the obedience to your bishops.

Hebrews 13:17
17Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.


The Bible is neither simple nor straight-forward else the eunuch would not have needed Phillips help and there would not be the proliferation of denominations that exist today.


That’s funny that is not what Jesus answered when He was asked.  

Matthew 19:16
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which?  Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Now Christ did not mean this in a literal legalistic manner – but it just goes to show you contention that the Bible is simple and straight-forward is wrong.



But He doesn’t come out and say what exactly is entailed in believing on Him.  So it once again is not so simple and straight-forward.


Yes it is difficult to summarize the entire New Testament in one paragraph but this comes a lot closer than your verses pulled out of context that don’t explain or address the role baptism and repentance among other things.


You should not presume to speculate on what a loving God does – He does not answer to you or any of us other lumps of clay.


The list of Catholic “rules” as you call them is no less a confusion than the proliferation of denominations and their endless variations of doctrines is.

So your entire complaint about the Catholic Church and the reason you would say it is not Christian is because it is hard to understand?  Nothing about doctrine all about your ability to understand – sorry not good enough for me.

Oh really based on who’s authority?  Why seven and not six or eight?  Why your seven and not some other seven?  Who made you an authority on cults?


Maybe for your purposes, but not for ours.  It is the height of inpoliteness to speak for others especially when one has no qualifications.  Your definition of a cult would make every denomination appear as a cult to every other denomination as they all disagree on some point of doctrine, thus the reason they are different denominations.


It’s funny but this exclusivity is exactly what your groups definition of a cult is – a statement of exclusivity in the sense that only they keep from teaching false doctrine, that would mean you fit your own definition of cult exclusivity.  You need to rethink your definition.


No argument here, the Catholic Church does teach that the only way to salvation is to be a part of the Church.  But this is only logical.  If you have the doctrine of salvation wrong you cannot be saved and if two or more bodies differ on the doctrine of salvation they cannot all be right.  So if only one is correct you would need to be following its doctrine to saved and if you follow its doctrine you are a member of that Church whether you realize it or not.


This just goes to show how little you know about the Catholic Church.  Only one of those sources was infallible.  Certainly Aquinas (though a great theologian) was never infallible.  Even the Popes statements were not infallible as they were not taken from ex cathedra statements (which is the only time the Pope is infallible).   Only the statement from Vatican II ( a congregation of the Bishops of the Church) would be put forward as infallible.  You really need to study the RCC more before you go off on a Catholic bashing exercise.


It is only a cult mentality because you say it is.  Sorry not good enough.



The Church does not see itself, nor do its followers as the savior.  That is your extrapolation and it is a faulty one.


I have to start by saying that a Jesuit theologian could get some of this wrong they cannot speak authoritatively for the Church.  But be that as it may there is scriptural support for each of the issues you present.

First, believing the Word of God should not offer any problems to Christians.

Second though the Church does teach that in some circumstances it is possible to be saved without water baptism the general guideline is that it is required based on the following verse among others.

Mt 16:15-16
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Keeping the commandments comes again from Christ’s own teachings in Matthew 19 for one.

Matthew 19:16
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18He saith unto him, Which?  Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.


Finally your fourth point is based once again on Christ’s teachings.

John 6:53
53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Yes Catholic’s take the scripture literally in this case, but it is clear from 1 Cor 11:26 that we should.

26For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come.  27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

Paul is clearly teaching that if you don’t see Christ body truly present in the bread and wine you risk damnation by participating in the Eucharist.



The Catholic Church does not teach salvation comes from obeying any law in and of itself.  It teaches that following these laws or rules show obedience to the gospel (2 Th 1:8 and 1 Pt 4:17), which are works that make for a living faith (James 2:17) which is the only acceptable way in which to accept the free gift.

Notice how all of your interpretations are from the teachings of the apostles and you force what Christ said to fit your interpretations of the apostles teachings.  While I can make the teachings of the apostles fit consistently with the teachings of Christ.  Which do you think makes the most sense?

Only in your dreams

A4C, the problem is that you are looking at the Catechism in the wrong way. You ate looking at it in comparison to the bible. The Catechism isn’t to replace the bible, but complement it. Comparing the Catechism the Bible is like comparing the Declaration of Independence to the Bill of Rights. Try and read it again, with these words in mind, it might help you to understand things better.

I have yet to see honest conflict between the Catechism and the Bible, anyways.  The only time they do compare it, and quote the Catechism, they only use half a sentence at a time. When the Catechism is written paragraph at a time, this kind of “proof” is pretty weak. Normally, reading the section will disprove that argument.

One more time...

To demonstrate that Roman Catholicism bears the mark of a cult is quite easy indeed. If we were left to our opinions and personal interpretations, it might be difficult, but Rome has supplied a mass (no pun intended) of evidence to use. For example:

1) "WE BELIEVE THE CHURCH IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION BECAUSE CHRIST, WHO IS THE SOLE MEDIATOR AND EXCLUSIVE WAY OF SALVATION, RENDERS HIMSELF PRESENT FOR US IN HIS BODY WHICH IS THE CHURCH. WE MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER THE UNITY OF THE MYSTICAL BODY, WITHOUT WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, IS OPEN TO NO ONE OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."
Pope Paul VI

2) "THE HOLY UNIVERSAL CHURCH PROCLAIMS THAT GOD CANNOT TRULY BE WORSHIPPED SAVE WITHIN HERSELF, AND ASSERTS THAT ALL THEY WHO ARE WITHOUT HER PALE SHALL NEVER BE SAVED."
Pope Gregory the Great (Now how is that for ecumenism!)

3) "THE CHURCH IS LIKE THE ARK OF NOAH, OUTSIDE OF WHICH NOBODY CAN BE SAVED."
Thomas Aquinas.

4) "THAT THERE IS ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH WE ARE COMPELLED TO BELIEVE AND TO HOLD, PROMPTED BY DIVINE FAITH, AND WE DO BELIEVE THIS FIRMLY AND CONFESS IT SIMPLY, OUTSIDE OF WHICH THERE CAN BE NO SALVATION, OR REMISSION OF SINS…."
Pope Boniface VIII

5) "IT IS A SIN TO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH."
Pope Pius IX

6) "FOR IT IS THROUGH CHRIST’S CATHOLIC CHURCH ALONE, WHICH IS THE UNIVERSAL HELP TOWARDS SALVATION, THAT THE FULNESS OF THE MEANS OF SALVATION CAN BE OBTAINED."  
Vatican II

Repeating yourself - especially after someone has shown the errors in your position doesn't prove anything.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. ;D

Have you ever wondered why "professing" Christians often dispute the words of Jesus? Is it rational or sensible for Christians, who say they believe in Jesus, to deny His teachings and promises? This would be similar to a Mormon rejecting the words of Joseph Smith or a Roman Catholic refuting the teachings of their "infallible" Pope. What causes those who name the name of Christ to substitute His word and authority for something else?

Thanks

Hail Mary ;D

Jesus said, "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit [which is invisible] and truth" (John 4:24). After Jesus ascended into heaven, Paul said true worshippers are those "who worship in the Spirit of God" (Phil. 3:3). The eternal, immortal King is invisible to those on earth until He returns (1 Tim. 1:17). Christians are called to look on "the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal" (2 Cor. 4:18). The Eucharistic god of the Catholic Church is thus a temporal god and a false Christ. Jesus warned us not to believe anyone who says, "Here is the Christ" (Mat. 24:23). Jesus Christ, the Eternal God, is now physically present at the right hand of the Father (Luke 22:69). He will not return to the earth until after the tribulation (Mat. 24:29-30). Clearly, the worship of the Eucharist is idolatry. To worship any image in the place of God provokes Him to anger. God has this to say to idolaters: "they have made Me jealous with what is not God; they have provoked Me to anger with their idols" (Deut. 32:21). The Roman Catholic Church has "exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image " and "exchanged the truth of God for a lie" (Rom. 1:23-25).

I think you misunderstand, A4C. By the Church, they are Referring the Christianity. By the Catholic belief, Baptist, Methodists, all true Christians are part of the “Catholic” church. When they say “The Church” they mean Christianity. If you had bother to read more then the quotes, you would know this. This is clearly stated by the Catechism. When they say “No one can be saved outside the church” What they are saying is you have to be Christian, no Muslims, no Buddhist, no Taoists, on Gnostics, no Tribal shaman, no one who isn’t Christian. Do you not agree? Because, this is what they are talking about. If you truly read the Catechism, you would know this.

This was posted for a reason.  Don't feed into it.  Only the Holy Spirit grants the graces necessary to know and believe truth.

We ought to pray for conversions and not quarrel.  This is hatred and hatred is not of God.

Remember the words of Jesus?  "Blessed are ye when they shall revile you, and persecute you, and speak all that is evil against you, untruly, for my sake:"  St. Matthew 5:11

It is for Jesus' sake that we "take" what we "take" from people like this.  Pray fervently friends.

The Bible tells us there is no excuse for those who are ignorant of God (Rom. 1:20). A lack of knowledge about God is indicative of a lack of desire to read His word. Indifference, laziness or a preoccupation with the things of this world is what keeps people from reading the Bible. Still there are people who are zealous for God but lack knowledge about His Gospel. We see an example in Romans 10:1-4. Paul said, "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Paul recognized their lost condition and prayed for their salvation.

Many Roman Catholics also have a zeal for God but it is not based on biblical knowledge. Since they do not know the righteousness of God, they seek to establish their own. If they knew that God’s righteousness requires perfect righteousness they would give up trying to appease Him and gain His acceptance through good works. They would recognize their own righteousness appears as filthy rags before a holy God. Roman Catholics need to go to the Bible—the divine source for the truth about God and His Gospel.

Hail Mary ;D

What Catholics Don’t Know About Salvation

They do not know the meaning and relationship of justification, sanctification and glorification in salvation. In Roman Catholic theology, justification and sanctification are not distinct but have similar meanings and thus interchangeable. Both are part of a process of becoming holy. For a Roman Catholic this process begins at water baptism and extends through purgatory. According to The Pocket Catholic Dictionary, justification "is the supernatural sanctification and renewal of a person who thus becomes holy and pleasing to God and an heir of heaven." "Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy" (Catechism of the Catholic Church [CCC], 1992). It is a process whereby good works are necessary to gain and maintain a right standing before God. "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification...let him be anathema" (Canon 9 of the Council of Trent). The Catholic Church states that the grace of justification comes, not through faith but through the sacraments, beginning with baptism. The sacraments conform Catholics to the righteousness of God. Catholics are taught they can then merit the graces needed for the attainment of eternal life through the sacraments, good works and obeying the law (CCC, 2027). Catholics commit a sin if they presume they can be glorified without merit (2091, 2092).

Grace & Peace

You have already proven you know nothing of Catholicism, no need to push the issue ;) ;D

Jesus is not and never was a victim. The Lord said: "I lay down My life…I lay it down on My own initiative" (John 10:17-18). Numerous references to Christ as the victim are found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: The victim is one and the same" (CCC, 1367).

Jesus does not appear every day in the form of a wafer to be worshipped and represented as a sacrifice. "This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven" (Acts 1:11). "He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God" (Hebrews 10:12).

Jesus is sufficient to save sinners completely and forever. "Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him" (Hebrews 7:25). Catholics reject the sufficiency of Christ’s atoning work by believing their good works and indulgences play a part in their salvation.

Jesus alone purifies sin. Purgatory does not exist. The teaching of it denies the cross work of Christ. Yet Rome dares to declare that purgatory is necessary because Jesus was unable to do what His word proclaims—to purify for Himself a people for His own possession (Titus 2:14). "When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (Hebrews 1:3). Fire has no effect on sin. Only the blood of Jesus can cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7).

In conclusion, it is clear that Roman Catholics don’t know about God and His Gospel because they have not gone to the primary source for these truths. They must realize that the Bible is what God has revealed and religion is what man says God has declared. Anytime people go to a secondary source for truth they leave themselves open to deception. Sinners might be able to navigate through the minefield of life on earth but should take this warning to heart. The Lord Jesus said, "Do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Mat. 10:28).

Tibby, I am working on it, give me sometime.  ;D

Your understanding of the Church appears to be based on biased accounts and not a studying of their doctrine.  catholics do not teach that God can be appeased through good works.

I do aggre that Catholics should go to the Bible, but then so does the Catholic Church as they openly encourage members to study the Bible every day.  But that is true for all people not just Catholics, and I know many Catholics who have a much better grasp of scripture than you appear to so I would encourage you to go to the Bible as well.

Amen Ralph,

I am reminded that Cain slew Able, when Able spoke to Him, no doubt concerning the things of God.

And by this deed exposed himself, for whose son he really was, thou Luther never convinced Roman Catholics of the way of their error in the doctrines of this institution, It is clear they sought to kill him, no question about it.

This is the reason I agree with you, we ought not allow these who profess Christ with their mouth, but at the same time worship at another alter, espousing error.

Clearly it is like having one foot in the world and one over the wall, true, no one knows their hearts but deception comes upon those who least expect it, Jesus warned against these, when He said;

Take heed that no man deceive you.

I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock on words or appearances, the proof as they say is in the pudding, its what they teach that exposes the lie, when compared to the truth.

2 Cor 11
10  As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
11  Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
12  But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15  Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Blessings,

Petro

Dont foget to start your prayer with hail mary ;D

I always do!  :)

(http://www.voiceoflife.homestead.com/files/maryatcross.jpg)

 :)

Brother Love :)

Jesus was the Christ, the anointed of God, who became man

Catechism 151 For a Christian, believing in God cannot be separated from believing in the One he sent, his "beloved Son", in whom the Father is "well pleased"; God tells us to listen to him. The Lord himself said to his disciples: "Believe in God, believe also in me." We can believe in Jesus Christ because he is himself God, the Word made flesh: "No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known." Because he "has seen the Father", Jesus Christ is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.

He was crucified

Catechism 421 Christians believe that "the world has been established and kept in being by the Creator's love; has fallen into slavery to sin but has been set free by Christ, crucified and risen to break the power of the evil one. . ."

Arose from the dead

Catechism 445 After his Resurrection, Jesus' divine sonship becomes manifest in the power of his glorified humanity. He was "designated Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his Resurrection from the dead". The apostles can confess: "We have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Ascended into heaven

Catechism 631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens.

Salvation through the free gift of grace through faith

Catechism 35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.


As further prove you should know that Catholics also believe both The Apostles Creed and the more complete and more accurate Nicene Creed and say one or the other of them at Mass every Sunday.

The Apostles Creed
I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.  I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.  He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.  He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.  He descended into hell.  On the third day he rose again.  He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again to judge the living and the dead.  I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,  the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvartion he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.  For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered died and was buried.  On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.  We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.  With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.  He has spoken through the Prophets.  We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.  We cknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.  We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.  Amen.

RIGHT ON!!!!!

I agree 100%

Brother Love :) :) :)

Right on, mike!!!!

100% Agree ;) ;D

ROFLOL ;D ;D ;D

 ;D ;D 8)

 ;D

Not quite sure why you find so many things so hysterical, but it sures shows a sign of spiritual immaturity, but then - I could tell that from the very first post I read from you.

I suppose you just find Catholicism hysterical, although I have this feeling that when you stand in front of the judgement seat of Christ you will not be ROTFLOL....Oh, but then again, you think your sins are "covered over" by the blood right and that you won't have to answer for them so I can see where it would be so easy for you to continually sin by showing a lack of christian charity to those on this site.

Gives me a clear image of what a born again, Bible believer's attitude is.  

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

Your Killing me ROFLOL ;D ;D ;D

Hail Mary ;D

Definition of a Roman Catholic:

Someone who believes:

the present Roman Catholic church organization in Rome is Christ's one true church established in 33 A.D.
the Pope is a God-appointed head of the church on the earth.
the teachings and decrees of the Pope as equal to the Bible in authority.
the church as the infallible interpreter of scripture.
that tradition is equal to the Bible in authority.
There is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic organ

Was there a point somewhere in there?

I think most of the other non-Catholics on this board are already aware of your point by point definition of a Roman Catholic.   ???

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)
"Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. ...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. ...Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. ...[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church." (Denzinger 246-247)

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)
"Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved." (Moralia)

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)
"Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)
"With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved." (Denzinger 423)

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Denz. 469) [note: This definition (de fide definita) seems unanswerable, but the liberals boldly claim that this is not a definition intended for the universal Church, but only a pronouncement meant to deal with the local problem of Philip the Fair. But when Philip demanded of Pope Clement V, the first Avignon Pope, that he withdraw Unam Sanctam, Pope Clement did not do so, but issued the Brief Meruit February 1, 1306, which despite its extremely conciliatory tone, clearly states that Unam Sanctam contains a "definition":] "That is why we do not wish or intend that any prejudice be engendered for that king and kingdom by the definition and declaration of our predecessor Pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, which began by the words Unam Sanctam." (51 Corpus Juris Canonici, (Extravag. commun., lib. V, tit. VII, cap. 2) ed. Freiburg, Vol. II, p. 1300.)


If any Christian believe thr False teachings of the above Popes, you need a lot of help.

What you are referring to is Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or "no salvation outside of the Catholic Church".

It's not like you are revealing some hidden secret.  It's not like you will get some "shock factor" from your little quote by Pope Saint Gregory the Great.  Want more quotes?

Pope Innocent III, A.D. 1198-1216: Ex cathedra: "One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (IV Lateran Council, A.D. 1215)

Pope Boniface VIII, A.D. 1294-1303: Ex cathedra: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.  The Lateran, November 14th, in our eighth year. As a perpetual memorial of this matter." (Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302)

Pope Eugene IV, A.D. 1431-1447: Ex cathedra: "It [the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that none of those outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but neither Jews, or heretics and schismatics, can become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life they have been added to the Church; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those abiding in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practised, even if he has shed his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has abided in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." (Council of Florence, A.D. 1442)

Two of these definitions, are from Holy and Venerable Ecumenical Councils.  The Church has always held that all of the ecumenical councils are ex cathedra, infallible; (Vatican II is an exception as the Pope chose that it be only a pastoral Council; Paul VI stated that he did not promulgated it as ex cathedra; that is however the only exception to the rule.)

You have made it known to me numerous times that I am not a christian because I guess I am not a christian "like you" a born again christian.  You have called me a "joke - just like my religion"  

So what's your point here?  The majority of born again christians say the exact same thing - that ROman Catholics are not "saved".  

Here is some more False Teachings From the False popes

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!



Pope Leo X reaffirmed the teaching of Boniface VIII: (1512-1517)
"Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam." (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Edidit Centro di Documentazione, Instituto per Science Religiose, Herder, Bologna, 1962, no. 40, pp. 619, 620.)

Here is some more False Teachings From the False popes

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!


Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829)
"We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. ...For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.'" (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Oh good.  Thanks A4C - I forgot that one ;)

Saint Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of Saint Peter and Saint Paul (died A.D. 107):
 "Let no man deceive himself.  Unless he believes that Christ Jesus has lived in the flesh, and shall confess His cross and passion, and the blood which He shed for the salvation of the world, he shall not attain eternal life, whether he be a king, or a priest, or a ruler, or a private person, a master or a servant, a man or a woman." (Epistle to the Smyrnaeans)
 
"For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the Bishop.  And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.  Do not err, my brethren.  If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ. (Epistle to the Philadelphians)

 Saint Justin Martyr (died A.D. 165):
 "And you deceive yourselves while you fancy that, because you are the seed of Abraham after the flesh, therefore you shall fully inherit the good things announced to be bestowed by God through Christ.  For no one, not even one of them, has anything to look for, but only those who in mind are assimilated to the faith of Abraham, and who have recognised all the mysteries.  [...]  So that it becomes you to eradicate this hope from your souls, and hasten to know in what way forgiveness of sins, and a hope of inheriting the promised good things, shall be yours.  But there is no other way than this, - to become acquainted with this Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the rest to live sinless lives. [...]

 "Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall not be saved." (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew.)

 Saint Martial of Limoges (died A.D. 165):
 "All who do not confess Christ to be true God shall go into eternal fire."
 
Saint Theophilus of Antioch (died A.D. 181):
 "And as, again, there are other islands, rocky and without water, and barren, and infested by wild beasts, and uninhabitable, and serving only to injure navigators and the storm-tossed, on which ships are wrecked, and those driven among them perish, - so there are doctrines of error - I mean heresies - which destroy those who approach them.  For they are not guided by the word of truth; but as pirates, when they have filled their vessels, drive them on the fore-mentioned places, that they may spoil them: so also it happens in the case of those who err from the truth, that they are all totally ruined by their error." (To Autolyctus)

 Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202):
 "Since therefore we have such proofs, it is not necessary to seek the truth among others [heretics] which it is easy to obtain from the Church; since the apostles, like a rich man [depositing his money in a bank,] lodged in her hands most copiously all things pertaining to the truth: so that every man, whosoever will, can draw from her the water of life.  For she is the entrance to life; all others are thiefs and robbers.  On this account we are bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with the utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the tradition of the truth. [...]

Lactantius (died A.D. 310):
 "It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship.  This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation.  No one ought to flatter himself with persevering strife.  For the contest is respecting life and salvation, which, unless it is carefully and diligently kept in view, will be lost and extinguished." (The Divine Institutes)

 The Roman Emperor Constantine converts to the Faith, to be followed by many of his citizens.  The heretics are outlawed and Catholicism becomes the official religion of the Empire.  Gradually nearly all of Europe is converted to the Faith and the Holy Roman Empire begins to emerge.  The dogma of salvation is quite safe during this period.
 
Pope Saint Sylvester I, A.D. 314-335: Council of Nicea (first ecumenical council) A.D. 325: "Let the patriarch consider what things are done by the archbishops and bishops in their provinces; and if he shall find anything done by them otherwise than it should be, let him change it and order it, as seemeth to him fit; for he is the father of all, and they are his sons.  And although the Archbishop be among the bishops as an elder brother, who hath the care of his brethren, and to whom they owe obedience because he is over them; yet the patriarch is to all those who are under his power, just as he who holds the seat of Rome is the head and prince of all patriarchs; inasmuch as he is first, as was Peter, to whom power is given over all Christian princes, and over all their peoples, as he who is the Vicar of Christ our Lord over all peoples and over the whole Christian Church, and whoever shall contradict this, is excommunicated by the synod." (Arabic Canons, Canon XXXIX)

The Synod of Laodicea, A.D. 343-381:
 "Canon XXXIV. No Christian shall forsake the martyrs of Christ, and turn to false martyrs, that is, to those of the heretics, or those who formerly were heretics; for they are aliens from God.  Let those who go after them be anathema."

 "Ancient Epitome of Canon XXXIV. Whosoever honours an heretical pseudo-martyr, let him be anathema."
 
First Council of Constantinople (second ecumenical council) A.D. 381:
 "Canon VII. Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the number of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macerdocians, Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Appolinarians, we receive upon their giving a written renunciation of their errors and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Cathoilic and Apostolic Church of God."

Saint Ambrose, Doctor, (died A.D. 397):
 "And He [Christ] affirms that they act with devilish spirit who divide the Church of God, so that he includes the heretics and schismatics of all times, to whom He denies forgiveness, for every other sin is concerned with single persons, this is a sin against all." (Concerning Repentance)

"The Lord severed the Jewish people from his kingdom, and heretics and schismatics are also severed from the kingdom of God and from the Church.  Our Lord makes it perfectly clear that every assembly of heretics and schismatics belongs not to God, but to the unclean spirit." (Explanation of Luke)

 ""But woe unto you who are rich!"  We may here however understand by the rich man the Jewish people, or the heretics, or at least the Pharisees, who, rejoicing in an abundance of words, and a kind of hereditary pride of eloquence, have overstepped the simplicity of true faith, and gained to themselves useless treasures." (cf. Catena Aurea by Saint Thomas Aquinas, Lk. 6:24)

 "Wherefore it is incumbent to obey the presbyters who are in the Church, those who, as I have shown, possess the succession from the apostles; those who, together with the succession of the episcopate, have received the certain gift of truth, according to the good pleasure of the Father.  But [it is also incumbent] to hold in suspicion others who depart from the primitive succession, and assemble themselves together in any place whatsoever, [looking upon them] either as heretics of perverse minds, or as schismatics puffed up and self-pleasing, or again as hypocrites, acting thus for the sake of lucre and vainglory.  For all these have fallen away from the truth.  And the heretics, indeed, who bring strange fire to the alter of God - namely, strange doctrines, - shall be burned up by the fire from heaven, as were Nadab and Abiud.  But such as rise up in opposition to the truth, and exhort others against the Church of God, [shall] remain among those in hell, being swallowed up by an earthquake, even as those who were with Chore, Dathan, and, Abiron.  But those who cleave asunder, and separate the unity of the Church, [shall] receive from God the same punishment as Jeroboam did." (Against the Heresies)

Here is some more False Teachings From the False popes

No Salvation outside the Roman Catholic church!

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878)
"It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood." (Denzinger 1647)

 
Saint Pionius (died A.D. 250):
 "I am a Christian and belong to the Catholic Church.  Would to God I could persuade all of you to become Christians, for it will be the worse for you to burn eternally after death."
 
Origen (died A.D. 254):
 "Let no man deceive himself.  Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved." (In Iesu Nave homiliae)
 
Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): "But if any one considers these things carefully, he will need no long discourse or arguments.  The proof is simple and convincing, being summed up in a matter of fact.  The Lord says to Peter, "I say to thee, that thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not overcome it.  It will give to thee the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  And what thou shalt bind upon earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven."  And He says to him again after the resurrection, "Feed my sheep."  It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. [...]  If a man does not hold fast to this oneness of Peter, does he imagine that he still holds the faith?  If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?" (On the Unity of the Catholic Church)

 "For whereas in the Gospels, and in the epistles of the Apostles, the name of Christ is alleged for the remission of sins; it is not in such a way as that the Son alone, without the Father, or against the Father, can be of advantage to anybody; but that it might be shown to the Jews, who boasted as to their having the Father, that the Father would profit them nothing, unless they believed on the Son whom He had sent.  For they who know God the Father the Creator, ought also to know Christ the Son, lest they flatter and applaud themselves about the Father alone, without the acknowledgement of His Son, who also said, "No man cometh to the Father but by me."  But He, the same, sets forth that it is the knowledge of the two that saves, when he says, "And this is life eternal, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent."  Therefore, from the preaching and the testimony of Christ Himself, the Father who sent must be known first, then afterwards Christ, who was sent, and there cannot be a hope of salvation except by knowing the two together. [...]

 "Can the power of baptism be greater or of more avail than confession, than suffering, when one confesses Christ before men and is baptized in his own blood?  And yet even this baptism does not benefit a heretic, although he has confessed Christ, and been put to death outside the Church, unless the patrons and advocates of heretics declare that the heretics who are slain in a false confession of Christ are martyrs, and assign to them the glory and the crown of martyrdom contrary to the testimony of the apostle, who says that it will profit them nothing although they were burnt and slain. [..]  Not even the baptism of a public confession and blood can profit a heretic, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Epistle LXXII)

Saint Firmilian (died A.D. 269): "What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church." (Epistle to Cyprian)

Saint John Chrysostom, Doctor, (died A.D. 407): "We know that salvation belongs to the Church alone, and that no one can partake of Christ nor be saved outside the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith." (De Capto Eutropia)

"We should mourn for those who are dying without the Faith. [...]  And well should the pagan weep and lament who, not knowing God, goes straight to punishment when he dies!" (On the Consolation of Death)

Saint Gaudentius of Brescia (died A.D. 410): "It is certain that all men of Noah's time perished, except those in the Ark, which was a figure of the Church.  Likewise, they cannot in any way now be saved who are aliens from the Apostolic faith and the Catholic Church." (De Lect. Evangel.)

 The XII Council of Carthage, A.D. 419: "Canon LVII.  Those who as were baptized by the Donatists, and not yet being able to know the pernicious character of their error, and afterward when they had come to the use of reason, had received the knowledge of the truth, abhorred their former error, [...] having anathematized their error may be received by the imposition of the hand into the one Church, the pillar as it is called, and the one mother of all Christians, where all these sacraments are received unto salvation and everlasting life; even the same sacraments which obtain for those persevering in heresy the heavy penalty of damnation.  So that which to those who are in the truth lighteneth to the obtaining of eternal life, the same to them who are in error tends but to darkness and damnation."
 
Saint Jerome, Doctor, (died A.D. 420): "As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter.  For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built.  This is the house where alone can the paschal lamb be rightly eaten.  This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails." (Letter to Pope Damasus)

 ““Behold we have left all thing and have followed thee. [...]  shall possess life everlasting.” (S. Matthew 19:27-29) [...]  He said not: “You who have left all things;” for even the philosopher Crates did this, and many others have despised riches; but: “You who have followed me;” which applies to the Apostles and all the Faithful.” (Homily on St. Matthew)
 
Athanasian Creed circa A.D. 420: "Quiscumque vult salvus esse, * ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem: quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, * absque dubio in aeternum peribit. [...]  Haec est fides catholica, * quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit." (Roman Breviary, Sunday Prime, 1950)  (D39):"Whoever wishes to be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith, which unless each one preserves whole and inviolate, without doubt he will perish everlastingly. [...]  This is the Catholic faith, which unless each one believes faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."

 Saint Augustine, Doctor, (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church.  Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation.  One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermon to the People of Caesaria)

  ""But I say," adds he, "have they not heard?  "Yea, verily; their sounds went out into all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.""  Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth - because there are some remote nations still (although it is said that they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way, - what must human nature do, or what has it done - for it has either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learned that it was accomplished - but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ?  Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: "Then Christ died in vain."  For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, "If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain."  If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath - in a word, from punishment - except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ." (On Nature and Grace)

 Need more?

The teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are a perversion of Bible truth and Bible Christianity.  The following quotations are taken directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd edition, WHICH IS THE CURRENT DOGMA OF THE CHURCH OF ROME.  Errors have been highlighted in bold type:

SALVATION
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

WATER BAPTISM
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

GOOD WORKS
2016 The children of our holy mother the Church rightly hope for the grace of final perseverance and the recompense of God their Father for the good works accomplished with his grace in communion with Jesus. Keeping the same rule of life, believers share the "blessed hope" of those whom the divine mercy gathers into the "holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

THE MASS
1382 The Mass is at the same time, and inseparably, the sacrificial memorial in which the sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated and the sacred banquet of communion with the Lord's body and blood. But the celebration of the Eucharistic sacrifice is wholly directed toward the intimate union of the faithful with Christ through communion. To receive communion is to receive Christ himself who has offered himself for us.

PRAYER TO MARY
2676 This twofold movement of prayer to Mary has found a privileged expression in the Ave Maria: Hail Mary [or Rejoice, Mary]: ... Full of grace, the Lord is with thee: ... Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world.
Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. After the angel's greeting, we make Elizabeth's greeting our own. "Filled with the Holy Spirit," Elizabeth is the first in the long succession of generations who have called Mary "blessed." "Blessed is she who believed. . . . " Mary is "blessed among women" because she believed in the fulfillment of the Lord's word. Abraham. because of his faith, became a blessing for all the nations of the earth. Mary, because of her faith, became the mother of believers, through whom all nations of the earth receive him who is God's own blessing: Jesus, the "fruit of thy womb."

FAITH IN MARY
2677 Holy Mary, Mother of God: With Elizabeth we marvel, "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Because she gives us Jesus, her son, Mary is Mother of God and our mother; we can entrust all our cares and petitions to her: she prays for us as she prayed for herself: "Let it be to me according to your word." By entrusting ourselves to her prayer, we abandon ourselves to the will of God together with her: "Thy will be done."
Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death: By asking Mary to pray for us, we acknowledge ourselves to be poor sinners and we address ourselves to the "Mother of Mercy," the All-Holy One. We give ourselves over to her now, in the Today of our lives. And our trust broadens further, already at the present moment, to surrender "the hour of our death" wholly to her care. May she be there as she was at her son's death on the cross. May she welcome us as our mother at the hour of our passing to lead us to her son, Jesus, in paradise.

CONFESSION AND ABSOLUTION OF SINS
1497 Individual and integral confession of grave sins followed by absolution remains the only ordinary means of reconciliation with God and with the Church.
1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.
It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."
It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the life of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God."

PURGATORY
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying firecome. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

THE INTERCESSION OF SAINTS
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped. "Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life. I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth."

RELICS AND THE ROSARY
1674 Besides sacramental liturgy and sacramentals, catechesis must take into account the forms of piety and popular devotions among the faithful. The religious sense of the Christian people has always found expression in various forms of piety surrounding the Church's sacramental life, such as the veneration of relics, visits to sanctuaries, pilgrimages, processions, the stations of the cross, religious dances, the rosary, medals, etc.

THERE IS NOT ONE SHRED OF SCRIPTURE, RIGHTLY DIVIDED, WHICH SUPPORTS THESE FALSE TEACHINGS.

Therefore Roman Catholic readers should repent and be converted on the basis of Acts 4:12 (among many other Scriptures): "Neither is there salvation in ANY OTHER: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".

Sower - have added you to my list with A4C.  Will remember you both in my nightly rosary (*gasp*)

 ;D ;D ;D

Praying...

(http://voiceoflife.homestead.com/files/greenscapular1.gif)(http://voiceoflife.homestead.com/files/greeny2.gif)

IHM, you know my request....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN Sower, AMEN!!!!

Yes, this little tract is free; and it tells about forgiveness of sins, God's perfect righteousness, and eternal life, which are FREE for the taking. That's right. They are free !

The Bible declares that "there is none righteous, no not one" (Romans 3:10).
Works do not help here. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the "GIFT" of God, not of works, lest any man should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

"But God demonstrates His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died "FOR" us" (Romans 5:8).

"Being now declared righteous by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:9).

"The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE" (Romans 3:22).

Romans 5:15-21 tells of God's FREE GIFT of His righteousness and eternal life. "...so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 5:21).

Receive Christ now ! "AS ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord..."(Colossians 2:6). In Him is forgiveness of sins, God's perfect righteousness, and sure hope of heaven.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation..." (Ephesians 1:13).

There is no other way. "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

Don't be deceived by religion. Religion says "DO", whereas Christianity says "DONE !" Christ paid the full price for your salvation. Believe and be saved today."

As the Bible says, I am already saved  (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved  (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling  (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

Actually Catholics don't accept the idea of sola scriptura so you need to show that any of these ideas you quoted and highlighted the supposed errors are contrary to any scripture.  Which you cannot because they are not.

Actually the Roman Cult does NOT believe the Bible ((Gods Word)) they believe a non-christian called pope, to me who is a anti-christ.

Praying for the pagans..

Honestly, how can you say this when you have members of the “Roman Cult” telling you the opposite?

A4C - Are you aware that it was the ROman Catholic Church who preserved the Sacred Writings and compiled Sacred Scripture?  Perhaps you ought to thank the Roman Catholic Church for you are indebted to Her for the very Bible you read today!

Pentecost (30/33AD)
The beginning of the Church; the Church exists before a determination of a canon or a definitive list of books of what was later called the Bible. The NT was not even written yet. The Bible is the book of the Church, we are not a church of the Bible.

Melito, Bishop of Sardis (c. 170) Produced the first known Christian attempt at an Old Testament canon. His list maintains the Septuagint order of books but contains only the Old Testament protocanonicals minus the Book of Esther.

Council of Laodicea (c. 360) A local council of the church in union with Rome produced a list of books of the Bible similar to the Council of Trent's canon. This was one of the Church's earliest decisions on a canon.

Council of Rome (382) Local church council under the authority of Pope Damasus, (366-384) gave a complete list of canonical books of the OT and NT which is identical with the list later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Hippo (393) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Carthage (397) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Pope Innocent I, Bishop of Rome, 401-417 (405) Responded to a request by Exuperius, Bishop of Toulouse, with a list of canonical books of Scripture; this list was the same as later approved by the Council of Trent.

Council of Carthage (419) Local North African Church council in union with and under the authority of the Bishop of Rome approved a list of OT and NT canon (same as later approved by the Council of Trent)

Council of Florence, an ecumenical council (1441) Complete list of OT and NT canon was drawn up; this list later adopted by the Fathers of the Council of Trent

Council of Trent, an ecumenical council called to respond to the heresy of the Reformers (1545-1563)  
The canon of OT and NT received final definitions: 45 books in the OT; 27 in the NT; "Henceforth the books of the OT and the NT, protocanonical and deuterocanonical alike, in their entirety and with all their parts, comprise the canon and are held to be of equal authority." The ancient Vulgate edition of the Bible was called the authoritative edition of the Bible.

Vatican I Council (1869-1870) Reaffirmed the decree of Trent. The Church holds the books of Holy Scripture as sacred and canonical, not because she subsequently approved them, nor because they contain revelation without error, but precisely because "having been written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and, as such, they have been handed down to the Church itself."

Don't read much Church history do you?  It's very obvious.

You mean Cult history ;D

Nope - I mean early Church history, but then again, your "church" history didn't start until the mid 1500's with a man named Luther so - you wouldn't know about what went on prior to this man right? ;)

Volley ----->  serve

LOL, Luther LOL
The Church I am in started in Acts chapter nine. Your Cult started around 314 A.D. ;D

Hail May, started in the 1800's ;D

I am still praying for you

The Roman Catholic Church claims that the early Christians were all Roman Catholics, and that (aside from the Orthodox Church) all Christians were Roman Catholics until the Protestant Reformation. It claims that the Apostle Peter was the first Pope, ruling from Rome. It also claims that it gave us the Bible.

But do these claims stand up to the test of history? Or are they false credentials?

There is historical evidence that the Roman Catholic Church began with Emperor Constantine. Many Protestants believe that throughout Church history, there have been many true Christians who were not Catholics, and these Christians were often killed by the Catholic Church. They also believe that Peter was just one of the apostles, and that the Catholic Church only copied and preserved the Bible, which God had already given to us.

EMPEROR CONSTANTINE

On October 28, 312 A.D., the Roman Emperor Constantine met with Bishop Miltiades. (Catholics would later refer to him as Pope Miltiades. But at the time he was known as the Bishop of Rome.) Miltiades was assisted by Silvester, a Roman who spoke educated Latin, and acted as interpreter. The previous day, Constantine had seen a sign in the heavens: a cross in front of the sun. He heard a voice say, "In this sign you will conquer." He painted crosses on the shields of his soldiers. He won an important battle, and was convinced that it was because of the power of the sign that he had seen. He asked for two of the nails that were used to crucify Jesus. One nail was made into a bit for his horse. Another nail was made a part of his crown, signifying that Constantine ruled the Roman Empire in the name of Jesus. He allowed Miltiades to keep the third nail. [Note 1]

The fact that Constantine saw the cross and the sun together may explain why he worshiped the Roman sun god while at the same time professing to be a Christian. After his "conversion," Constantine built a triumphal arch featuring the Roman sun god (the "unconquered sun"). His coins featured the sun. Constantine made a statue of the sun god, with his own face on it, for his new city of Constantinople. He made Sunday (the day of the sun god) into a day of rest when work was forbidden. [Note 2]

Constantine declared that a mosaic of the Roman sun god (riding in a chariot) was a representation of Jesus. During Constantine's reign, many Christians incorporated worship of the Roman sun god into their religion. They prayed kneeling towards the east (where the sun rises). They said that Jesus Christ drives his chariot across the sky (like the Roman sun god). They had their worship services on Sunday, which honored the Roman sun god. (Days of the week were named to honor pagan gods. For example, Saturday is "Saturn's day," named for the Roman god Saturn.) They celebrated the birth of Jesus on December 25, the day when sun worshipers celebrated the birthday of the sun following the winter solstice. [Note 3]

Historians disagree as to whether or not Constantine actually became a Christian. His character certainly did not reflect the teachings of Jesus Christ. Constantine was vain, violent, and superstitious. His combination of worshiping the Christian God and the old Roman sun god may have been an attempt to cover all the bases. (A similar spirit can be seen in Americans who financially support both opposing candidates during an election. No matter who wins, they expect to have the favor of the person in power.) Constantine had little if any respect for human life. He was known for wholesale slaughter during his military campaigns. He forced prisoners of war to fight for their lives against wild beasts. He had several family members (including his second wife) executed for doubtful reasons. Constantine waited until he was dying before he asked to be baptized. Historians disagree as to whether or not he actually was baptized. [Note 4]

Constantine wanted to have a state Church, with Christian clergy acting as civil servants. He called himself a Bishop. He said that he was the interpreter of the Word of God, and the voice which declares what is true and godly. According to historian Paul Johnson, Constantine saw himself as being an important agent of salvation, on a par with the apostles. Bishop Eusebius (Constantine's eulogist) relates that Constantine built the Church of the Apostles with the intention of having his body be kept there along with the bodies of the apostles. Constantine's coffin was to be in the center (the place of honor), with six apostles on each side of him. He expected that devotions honoring the apostles would be performed in the church, and he expected to share the title and honor of the apostles. [Note 5]

Constantine told Bishop Miltiades that he wanted to build two Christian basilicas, one dedicated to the Apostle Peter and one dedicated to the Apostle Paul. He offered a large, magnificent palace for the use of Miltiades and his successors. Miltiades refused. He could not accept the idea of having Christianity be promoted by the Roman Empire. [Note 6]

Constantine rode off to war. By the time that he returned in 314 A.D., Miltiades had died. Bishop Silvester was Miltiades' successor. Silvester was eager to have the Church be spread using Roman roads, Roman wealth, Roman law, Roman power, and Roman military might. Constantine officially approved of Silvester as the successor of Miltiades. Then he had a coronation ceremony for Silvester and crowned him like a worldly prince. No bishop had ever been crowned before. [Note 7] Constantine's actions give the impression that he believed that he had authority over the Church.

Before Constantine's "conversion," Christians were persecuted. Now, instead of facing persecution, Bishop Silvester lived in the lap of luxury. He had a beautiful palace, with the finest furniture and art. He wore silk brocade robes. He had servants to wait on him. Near his palace was a basilica which was to serve as his cathedral. This luxurious building had seven altars made of gold, a canopy of solid silver above the main altar, and 50 chandeliers. The imperial mail system and transportation system were placed at Silvester's disposal. It was now possible to have worldwide church councils. [Note 8]

Read the Book of Acts and the Epistles and compare the Church shown there to the Church of Bishop Silvester. Here is how the Apostle Paul described the kinds of things that he had to endure, as a leader in the early Church.

"Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness." (2 Corinthians 11:24-27)

After Constantine's "conversion," the Church was radically changed. Suddenly, being Christian resulted in power, prestige, and promotion (whereas previously it had resulted in persecution). Suddenly, by the Emperor's decree, Christianity became "politically correct". So ambitious people joined the Church for worldly reasons. The Bishop of Rome was supported by the military might, political power, and wealth of the Roman Emperor. Worldwide church councils were convened.

This was the birth of the Roman Catholic Church. It was created in the year 314 A.D. by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester.

 

The Roman Catholic Church was created by Emperor Constantine and Bishop Silvester in the year 314 A.D.

The Catholic Church did not give us the Bible, but it did help preserve it. The Bible was copied by monks during the Middle Ages..

Peter did not act like a Pope and he did not describe himself as having any special authority. In the Church meeting that is described in chapter 15 of the Book of Acts, James appears to be the person in authority. He makes the final decision. The Bible shows Peter as being in Jerusalem, not in Rome.

 

Do I hear a Hail Mary ;D

"They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions...Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down" (Mark 7:7-13).

Interesting!  Then you should be able to provide a complete line of succession of every bishop and elder ordained through laying on of hands from your current minister all the way back to the apostles then.  I would love to read it.

When your church history doesn’t start till 1700s, ideas like Apostolic succession are a tad beyond your grasp.  ::) I say 1700s because while the church did split in the 1500s, it remanded very Catholic in nature until the 1700s.

Besides, we are talking to someone who thinks he knows more about Catholicism then all 3 of us combined. He sure gave a lot of information. Anyone who spends this much time studying something they believe is false needs to reassess their priorities.

Your revisionist history aside no independent historian or scholar holds to this opinion.  Instead of claiming to be an authority yourself try offering some evidence from people who really know what they are talking about.  Quotes from some secular historians would go further to prove your point then your egotisitical babblings.

J.N.D. Kelly a Protestant historian at Oxford accepts the line of succession of Popes all the way to Peter.   So much for your private theory of it starting with Constantine.  You can find Kelly's work in the book The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. ISBN 0-19-282085-0


What body did give us the Bible then?  Who decided what books were and were not to be included in the Canon?  You can't deny one explanation without providing an alternative and remain a constructive participant in the search for truth.


Peter certainly acted like a Church leader.  It was he that rebuked Ananais when he held back the value of what he was to lay at the apostles feet.  Peter was also the one who made the decision at the Council in Acts.  James was the local Bishop but Peter was clearly in charge of the proceedings.  Finally the Bible clearly teaches that Peter was in Rome as he sends greatings from Babylon in his epistle and that was the code word for Rome.  Besides that not all of history of the day is contained in the New Testament and history clearly shows Peter to be in Rome.  Irenaeus in his work Against Heresies makes it clear that Peter was in Rome and established a Church there.

"The universally known church was founded and organized  at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul."  Ireneaus 1.415

Bruce L. Shelley and N.R. Needham are 2 more examples of Protestant historians who accept the Apostolic succession and tradition. And all these men are well-known, published authors. Lets see some credible historian argue against this fact. I think you would hard pressed to find one, Protestant or otherwise.

Tibby - you said, "I say 1700s because while the church did split in the 1500s, it remanded very Catholic in nature until the 1700s."

I humbly disagree.  When Luther split, he dropped all the Sacraments except two.  Because he split from Holy Mother Church, he no longer had the authority to celebrate the Holy Eucharist - so when Luther split, even if he tried to make it resemble Catholism it was NOTHING of the sort.

As far as getting Prots to trace their history.  They can't do it.  You will see someone pop on here and change the subject radically to avoid this.  It's a thorn in their side and they know it just as the Scripture compilation is a thorn in their side.  NO way around it so the best way to deal with it is to avoid the topic altogether. LOL  Wait and see....

We have a proven unbroken line of succession beginning with St. Peter (I could print for everyone if they want).  The argument regarding the Church starting with Constantine is a tired, old - anti-Catholic bunch of nothingness that couldn't hold water if they tried.

I think it best to just go ahead and admit your "church" started with Luther and base an argument from there, then to try to make up some lie that your "church" started in Acts when we all know that to be false.  Look at the writings of the early Church fathers - even a few hundred years after Christ which talked about celebrating the Holy Eucharist and the Blessed Virgin etc....Prots close their eyes to these writings and pretend they don't exist.  Sad.  Very sad.

I was referring the basic Liturgical mass, which they still keep to an extent, even if they did leave True Catholicism. It wasn’t until around the 1700’s that they really left the basic Liturgical setting. Personally, I have a problem with someone who even considers taking the book of James out, but, despite his tampering with scripture, his anti-Semitism, and his problem with authority, he did bring up a few good points. Even if he did start a movement that gave raise to all forms of insanity and heresy, we should be careful on to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I’ve met many a man who said the true Church died with the Apostles, and that everyone after that were heretics. This is foolishness. My question is, these heretics complied the bible, so shouldn‘t we question a bible heretics made? It didn’t magical form itself. These men who put the bible together, in their own writing, where very Catholic in nature. This can not be argued. Succession a very important part of the Church.

Read a good, non-prejudicial book about Luther.  I bet you change your mind about that quote.
THrow the whole tub and all out!  The man was a foul-mouthed, womanizing, disgusting man.

I wouldn't take a single word of what he had to say as "good points".

"The Church I am in started in Acts chapter nine."

How do you come to this conclusion from Acts:9?


Acts 2:47.  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 5:11.  And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
 
Acts 8:1.  And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:3.  As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Is the church mentioned in the chapters before chapter nine a
different church other than Christ's?
 Why would you stipulate that you are in the church started in chapter nine of Acts when it is scripturally clear that Christ's church was in existence before the time of chapter nine??
Chapter nine only speaks of the church of Christ, (His Body), that has already been in existence.

 Acts 9:31.  Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied.

 

No doubt, he was extremely uncouth, a drunkard, a womanizer, he wasn’t the greatest Priest in the world, that is for sure. But, Saul was a murderer of Christians. If God can speak thru a donkey, then he can definitely speak thru Luther. He brought up some good points. It doesn't take a Saint to point out problems. Eminem has made a career out of pointing like peoples flaws. Don’t take everyone’s criticism to heart, but if someone tells you about a problem, it would be foolish to not just take a look and see for your self.

"Saul was a murderer of Christians."

Show that this is true using scripture?
 Saul was a strict adherent to the Law given by God to Moses, so such a thing could not be so.
 He hauled them to prison and wreaked havoc with their assemblies but where are we told he murdered?

Saul being faithful to the law thought Christians were blasphemers and that he was right with God in his treatment of them until he saw the light so to speak.

I would appreciate your showing me the truth of him murdering Christians using scripture only.

Thanks,
Ollie

I agree Luther was well intentioned initially and he made some good points.  In fact alot of the abuses he pointed out led to the counter-reformation which was needed.  

We also have to remember the Protestant reformation was not his idea.  It was born out of purely political and economic motives.  The rulers of Germany and other countries did not like the idea of the Church telling them they couldn't do things their way.  The wanted their own version of seperation of Church and State so bad that they took advantage of the uprising that grew behind Luther and others.

Luther didn't want to leave the Church at first but when faced with a hearing and probable punishment from the Church he turned to the only people he could and they exacted a huge toll for their protection.  They formed new churches and then turned to the pride of the individals of the time with the idea that no one should be submissive to the Church (even though scripture tells us to be) and that they could (with their newly found leisure time and literacy) read and understand the Bible for themselves.  

Luther himself made statements about what an error this turned out to be by referring to the common man as each becoming his own Pope and bemoaned the tremendous number of sects that arose in his life time.  If he could only see how the number has mushroomed beyond all belief.

So you see it wasn't all Luther's fault.   With out the confluence of abuse in the Church, greedy Godless leaders of state and an economic system that had finally begun to free man from day to day drudgery the reformation would have never occured the way it did.  These last two seeds for revolution have accompanied all civil strife - people just don't revolt when they are busy trying to feed themselves.

I technicality, Ollie. Everyone knows what I mean. ::)

Micheal-Yeah, it was a reform and a protest, meant to change the current set up, not make a whole new one.

I say take your advise and examine yourself with it.

You are uncouth, yourself..I am sure you do not see this frowardness of yourself.. it is the result of ignorance but there is no reason for it.

Petro

Still not playing nice, Petro? If you want to talk about things that there are no reason for... ::)

Oh, I’m uncouth? I’m ignorant? I’M 19!!!!!!!!!! Think about that for a second. Now, think about the level of tact and maturity of the average 19 year old, if you will. At this stage in a humans life, most of us are working on dispelling ignorance. Most of us are working of learning tact and political correctness so when we enter the real world, we can do so as mature, presentable adults. The average 19 year old is not tactful in the least, nor is he mature. The point of this stage of our life is to become couth, to become mature, to dispell ignorance. Yes, I am uncouth. My level of maturity is average for my age, buddy. Whether it is average for men like Luther or yourself, well, who am I to judge? I didn't know Luther, and I don't know you.

As for my “frowardness,” I assume you mean my unwillingness to agree with you (either that, or you have been reading to much Old King James ;) ). In which case, I’d say frowardness is a virtue. Besides just a few threads ago, I was wishy-washy, and didn’t know what I believed, and keep changing. Now I'm froward?