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Hello, this will be my first post here.

Today, many Christian leaders are influencing the laity to acknowledge the scientific consensus that the universe (and the earth) MUST be far older than what the bible quite plainly portrays it to be.

When we look at the scientific evidence, even we believers who object to these claims must admit, some of the arguments are quite convincing and difficult to overcome.

And of course, when we use our intellect and inquire regarding the motivations of science, we might find ourselves wondering, "Surely they can't have it THAT wrong!" And, "Surely God has not made the evidence point to great age, when it is really much younger?"

And yet believers are confronted with the plain and clear wording of scripture, that the earth was created in 6 days, that the genealogies cannot support millions of years, and that the flood was indeed a world wide deluge. The only way these conclusions cannot be reached when simply reading scripture, is to approach the text with some heavily biased preconceived notions about what we ought to find there.

Is there a way that the earth and the universe can look old, without it being a deception? Can God create by a miracle, and yet the results still conform to his natural laws?

I believe so.....

The first miracle of Christ has great symbolism with regard to the creation narrative (which you will immediately notice); i.e. 6 water pots representing 6 days of creation; Jesus is given credit for the creation throughout the new testament, and this is Jesus first recorded miracle.  And yet even beyond all that, there is a conclusion here which I believe to be symbolic of mans observations, and how they can be right about their conclusions, and at the same time, in error.

Joh 2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:
Joh 2:2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
Joh 2:5 His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
Joh 2:7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
Joh 2:8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
Joh 2:9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
Joh 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Notice the reaction of the ruler of the feast. He made the conclusion that this wine was the best wine they had. That is, he assumed this wine was made from among the best grapes, harvested from the best vineyards, carefully prepared and well aged at the best winery. In other words, he made a perfectly understandable and natural conclusion, and one that any one of us would have made in his place. And had we asked for his analysis, I am sure he would have given a long list of necessary components and processes required in the making of such a "good wine".

Yet he was missing information. He did not know that every natural process necessary in making this good wine was violated. The grapes were not even grown, much less harvested. There was no threshing, and there was no aging process. There was no winery at all. In fact, there wasn’t even a fermentation process. Yet, to this man, this wine seemed to be the best wine, from the best grapes, harvested from the best vineyard and well aged, simply because he had no knowledge of the true source of the wine.

The servants who served the wine knew the truth because they were privy to information which the ruler of the feast did not have. But even had he been told the truth, he probably would never have believed it, and would have certainly insisted that he knew the process for making such wine, and their theory about the source of this wine had to be either error, or pure fantasy.

I believe this is the source of the great divide between science and the church today. I believe the truth about the entire issue of the creation narrative and the age of the earth is contained here, in this first miracle of Christ.

He has revealed the truth to his servants, the elect.  But he has allowed the "rulers" to simply make natural conclusions, based upon valid observations of the laws which God himself has put into place.

Are they wrong? No more so than the ruler of the feast was wrong about the process of wine making.

Is this a deception on God’s part?

No, it is actually a form of self deception on the part of men. Because God has given us the truth; and yet, just as the ruler of the feast would have balked at the idea of making wine from water, so the scientific community balks at an earth that is merely 6 – 10,000 years old.

Yet that is precisely what the bible teaches.

Pro 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6  Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Hello Superfundy,

I see this is your first post, so WELCOME!


I sincerely hope that you enjoy Christians Unite, and I look forward to having fellowship with you.

Your post is very interesting and thought provoking. I believe every single word of GOD'S Account of HIS Creation in the Holy Bible. In fact, I believe the Holy Bible is the Ultimate Source of TRUTH and it should be used to judge all things. If we look at the history of science, we will find mountains of discredited ideas and thoughts once considered to be facts. As a stark contrast, NOTHING from the Holy Bible has ever been proven false. Just the opposite - The Holy Bible has been proven to be absolute FACTS countless times. As an example, Bible Prophecy is simply a Future TRUTH that will come to pass perfectly, and there isn't a single failure yet. So, the Bible contains PROOF already that it is TRUE.

I know that GOD simply wants us to come to HIM in childlike faith and believe HIM. I do, and I give thanks every day that I'm a purchased possession of JESUS CHRIST. HIS Precious Blood on the CROSS has washed me clean and set me free of the curse of sin and death.

Love In Christ,
Tom

Hebrews 12:1-2 NASB
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Colossians 2:6-17 NASB
Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude. See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day -- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Hello Superfundy,

Welcome to Christians Unite forums.

Your points on this are indeed interesting.

The laws of physics, the law of the speed of light, the law of gravity ...

These laws were made by God but they do not restrict God as He is the only one in control of them. These "laws" are restrictions on men only. When He said "Let there be light" it was there instaneously when and where He wanted it to be not millions or billions of years later.

It is man's self deception in how they understand it.

Amen! Thanks for the responses.

I had always searched for a New Testament reasoning regarding this issue, because so many theistic evolutionists and such would simply disregard most of the more direct references as being far too interpretive.

But this is rather hard for them to overcome. They may disagree, but there isn't really much of an alternative interpretation.

And I cannot take credit for the teaching, I found it taught by a teacher from the early 20th century, though I have never found that link again, and I cannot remember his name. It has always been a blessing and an assurance to me though.

Grace and peace

There are a number of great teachers from the late 1800's on that are consistent with such teachings that I refer to frequently.