ChristiansUnite Forums

First of all: I would like to say that I'm not bad-mouthing christians, I know christianity means well, has exceptional philosophy and contributes to more charity work than most other faiths, in this post I am simply pointing out anything that would cause a person to be skeptical of christian righteousness, I am curious and eager to hear the chirstian side of things.

Second to say:

- I am Native American (Navajo/Cherokee)
- I follow the Buddhist Faith (American/Theravada)
- I study World History (Mainly Wars/Religion/Politics)

My background, faith and hobbies are a good combination to make me distrust christians, maybe even hate them, But I have patience and peace, I don't even hate Nazi's.

Plus I study Psychology, so I never blame anything on the person, just the environment.

Third to ask: Now for the questions, I don't wish to offend or debate, just a friendly conversation.

Why do christians deny the past?

If I discover that Buddhism did cause wars, and some were unenlightened to the point of evil, I wouldn't deny it, infact I'm sure it's true, we are all human. None of you can deny that christianity probably has the most corrupt and dishonorable past: beleifs that caused suffering to others, A historical massacre with a kill count higher than the holocaust and a time period where the church was corrupt and didn't follow the bible. Why, instead of justifying by apologizing or righting such wrongs, do they deny it? It's like ignoring a dusty attic that anyone can climb up to see.

Why do they demand and convert?

It's a common sin to try and convert others into your way of thinking, and it's less appealing to demand time and money, and it's also not convincing to demand beleif when no test is offered.

What happened to Christmas?

This is a phenomenon that totally flew over my head, I know the meaning of Christmas is the Joy of giving and the celebration of the birth of Christ, how it became so commerical, inaccurate, decorative and popular among non-christians is beyond me.

Why not modernize?

It's impossible to beleive things like evolution when you still beleive in Adam and Eve, well I think you can be a beleiver in both if you just admit that stories and legends can be inaccurate and outdated, but still have true philosophy and message.

So why are you Christian?

The two most common answers I get are becuase of family, and it saved me from drugs/crime/a life of dishonor

Those are perfectly understandable and agreeable, family is very intolerant, and morals are easier when they come in a named practice.

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Now anything I said could be totally wrong, misinformed, or offensive. But that was not my intention at all. I simply ask for a christian response.

And I apologize if it is against the rules for a non-christian to post, they were a little vague when it mentioned other religions and life-stlyes.

Oh yes, and I do beleive that Jesus Christ was a very imporatant and rightous person, I'm just not sure he was the mesiah

I'm not an Athiest, I'm agnostic, so I don't deny, I just stay nuetral until prove is given.

     Welcome Traveler,

     I'm just the person for you to talk to. I have many answers for you. I hope you stop traveling long enough to really get into a deep discussion. Before I start to reply please post a message so I know your still here and didn't just pass through.

     Well I'll start to reply... First question you had was "why do Christians deny the past?"

     Its not that "we Christians" deny the past as much as we deny that many people who claim to be Christians really were "true Christians". True Christians don't always belong to "organized Churches" and organized Churches are not alway filled with true Christians. Many people around the world use the name Jesus Christ, but are not "True Christians".
     The Mormons and the Jehovahs Witnesses both use the Bible and Jesus Christ but both are CULTS and not true Christians. More wars have been fought over Jesus Christ than any, but those using His name and claiming to be "Christian" were not serving Him but deceiving themselves.

     I know what your native American ancestors  went through by the hands of those who claimed to be Christian. I have a small amount of Native American blood and have a ponytail. I know that your people were forced to cut their hair, and abandon your whole culture at the Demands of so called Christians. That so called Christians have broken over 5,000 treaties to date and have never honored one of them. So called Christians sent blankets with small pox to native Americans, so called Christians stole their land. I don't deny any of these things except the fact that just because they went to Church, and used Jesus name, doesn't make them Christians.

      Jesus never wanted the Church to be a political tool, an organization used by men. The true Church is a body of believers, not a building or organization. It doesn't matter what Church you belong to or go to, its your personal relationship to Jesus Christ that counts. Hell will be filled to the rim with people who went to Church , but failed to have the saving relationship with the Savior Jesus Christ.

      Your next question was why do we try to convert others.

      Well first let me tell you why I do... 14 years ago I went on a search for "the Truth" as far as spirituality is concerned. I went in search of my creator. I decided that I'd start with the Bible and when I found errors and flaws I'd move on to something else like Buddism... funny thing is the harder I looked for flaws and errors the more answers and truth I found. Prophecy had always interested me and 4/5ths of the Bible was prophetic at the time of its writing so I began to study prophecy. Biblical prophecy led me to research world history, where I found prophecy after prophecy fulfilled exactly including every small detail. The Bible proved itself to me beyond a shadow of a doubt. But what about Science? So I started studing Science and found that when science is used and applied to the Biblical account, science supports the Bible. Well after trying to rule out the Bible as the truth, looking for one lie, one flaw that couldn't be explained, I was amazed to find TRUTH. I found an answer for every question I had in the Bible, there was no turning back, I'd found the truth I had been seeking...

      But what about my friends and loved ones... They don't know the truth and their not even looking... I could tell them to read the Bible... but they don't believe its the truth... I could tell them to study Biblical prophecy and then study world history, Babylonian, Media-Persian, Greek, Roman... but they won't do that will they?... They need somebody to teach them, to show them all the awesome "secrets"
and "mysteries" of the Bible. They need a teacher, but who will do it? Who can I trust enough to send them to that will take the time needed to teach them?...

      Wait! I know! I'll teach them... I'll study the book forwards and backwards, I'll study science so those who won't believe because science seems to go against the Bible, but I'll show them how science really backs the Bible... If they have questions, I'll find them answers...

     Thats why many of us "witness". We have found the truth and understand what the Truth is. Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to Salvation, Without Jesus Christ there is no salvation, none will be saved except those who place the faith in Christ alone without personal worth or merit or works. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all sins committed by mankind on a Roman cross. Jesus Christ was 2nd person or personality of the triune God, 100% God in nature, and he became human by taking on the additional nature of man, being born of a virgin named mary. Jesus Christ never was anything less than 100% God, but did not use all of the attributes of God while living His earthly life before His death for us on the cross. Jesus Christ is 100% God, and 100% man, by taking on the additional nature of man. Jesus Christ is God/man.

      When you truely understand all these things it makes you want to help others find Salvation. I don't want anybody to go to hell, I want people to go to heaven and experience eternal paradise, with their creator and Savior, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

      I want you to be my eternal brother, God created you to be my brother, perhaps God is using me to reach out to you my brother.

      If I were able to go back in time and talk to native Americans, I would start like this... "My brothers, I have come from a land far away to speak with you. I know you have knowledge of the "Great Holy Spirit" and I have come to tell you the story of the people He chose to reveal His truths to. I'd tell the story of the great flood and explain that the Native Americans were decendants from the flood that traveled here from the other side of the world. I would have treated them as long lost brothers, that were seperated at birth that I've tracked down to share the family story with. I'd tell them all about great, great, great, grandfather Noah, great,great,great uncle Moses, their great,great,great cousins the wandering tribe of Hebrews, and most important, Jesus Christ, God the son and the Savior of all mankind.

       I wouldn't have cut your hair and FORCED you to believe but would have tried to show you that I truely cared about you and wanted to share with my brother the truth I was told to bring to all men on earth for we are all brothers, in the eyes of the Creator.

       I'll wait for your reply and then we can go deeper into our conversation.

                                                   Paul2

       Traveler;
    Acording to your post you are not a desiple of Christ.
     Did you come here to become a deciple of Christ, if so the frist step is, you must accept that you are a sinner.
    Romans 3
10   As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3
23   For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
   Second Accept that as a sinner youowe a penalty.

Romans 6
23   For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ezekiel 18
4   Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.


      Third accept that Jesus paid your sin debt, and ask Him into your hart.

    John 3
16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      2 Corinthians 5
21   For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

*claps with much enthusiasm*

That was one of the most spiritual speeches I have heard in a long time, or maybe you sounded like a preacher, I'm not sure.

Ok, you cleared up alot of misconception, I feel guilty becuase I didn't think about the different sects of Christ and the Bible. Just it as a whole and all the negativity as a whole, your saying the "true" christians were not those who force converted and ignored the bible.

And I understand how you feel about "converting" or sharing your new found faith, I felt the same way when I met the Dauer, who got me into Buddhism, but I was always let to beleive that converting others to your own religion was a sin, that no matter how rightous the teachings, it only provokes short tempered rebellion toward it. I still beleive you should lay it all out on a table, make it very obvious to pilgrims, and let them pick it to their will, while you guide them. I successfully made two buddhist friends (literally) and I also converted them to the philosophy of videogames ;)

Anyway, I didn't take into account that their was contraversy between sects of christianity. I should have.

You didn't cover everything really, I'm still curious to know how you feel about old legends and stories, and how flexible they are. Also what you think about what christmas is today.

And Off-Topic

- You said you have Native American in you, what Tribe?

- You said you also looked into Buddhism, how did that work out?

      Traveler,

     I'm glad your still here, you had questions and I have answers but it takes alot of work to provide answers so please be patient with me as I attempt to answer your questions and give you background information which will help you to understand the "big picture".

     Before man was created God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) created the Angels, spirit beings that would exist eternally. The highest, most powerful angel created was Lucifer, who was the guardian of God's throne. Lucifer was the # 1 angel and desired to be like God. Lucifer considered himself to be second in command, so to say, and thought he would always be closest to God. When God was creating life on earth the angels were witnesses. Allow me to "paint the picture" for you...

     Lucifer is beside God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in the Garden of Eden and God is creating the animals... God creates a giraffe, and Lucifer and the angels behold the giraffe and praise God maybe saying "nice work, you created an animal to eat the leaves of the trees. God continues creating animals, and the angels behold the creations and the PURPOSE they serve. God creates monkees and apes and the angels behold them and praise God on His fine creations.

      Finally God took some clay and formed Adam, a man, but God did something different with Adam, God breathed life into Adam and man became a living eternal soul. Picture Lucifers face getting red, thinking to himself "what does God need man for and why did He make him an eternal soul, when God already had eternal Angels, what is the purpose of this...this Thing God calls man."

     Picture God revealing the purpose of why man was created, for God to have a personal relationship with him. Lucifer snaps...WHAT? You want a relationship with man? WHY? What is this thing you call man? Why would you want a relationship with him? How do you know he is worthy of a relationship with you? You should test man, give man a rule and see if man obeys you and is worhty of a relationship with you.

     Picture God saying to Lucifer, "man will be tested and so shall you be tested, now bow down before adam!" Lucifer refuses to bow down before Adam, he thinks " I'm Lucifer,#1 most powerful angel and guardian of Gods throne, you expect me to bow down before this thing made from clay called man?

     This was the test for the angels, man was their test. The angels were created first, and probably thought they were the highest and most important creation of God. God then creates earth and everything on it as well as man. God reveals to the angels that man is to be made higher than they are, and the angels are to become second to man. God had foreknowledge of Lucifer and the one third of the angels rebellion, and that man would "fall" and require Salvation, that God the Son would have to take on humanity in the form of Jesus Christ to suffer the penalty of sin to satisfy justice, and through the life blood of Jesus Christ, mankind could be redeemed and satisfy all required by absolute justice. Jesus Christ, an innocent man willingly suffered the punishment for all sins committed by man, there by enabling God to redeem all men who have placed their faith in the redemption offered by Jesus Christ's blood. Sin had to be punished and all men sin and God would have to punish all men unless one perfect innocent man was willing to satisfy justice and receive the punishments due to others so that the guilty could be forgiven. God knew that God the Son would have to become a man in the form of Jesus Christ to redeem all mankind. If Lucifer wouldn't bow to Adam, lucifer wouldn't bow to Jesus.

     Lucifer fell from God's grace in the garden of Eden from pride. Lucifer becomes Satan or the Devil, #1 fallen angel and he took 1/3 of Gods holy angels with him into rebellion. Lucifer who I'll call Satan from now on, and the angels that fell with him were given a suspended sentance and allowed to test man but would finally end up in the lake of fire called hell. God showed his justice through the angels and His mercy and grace to men who place their faith in the redemption God provided for us through Jesus Christ, who satisfied all the requirements of Justice.

     Satan and the fallen angels known now as demons have been attacking mankind since they fell from grace in the garden of Eden.

     Satan loves religion, as long as theres one lie that deceives from the truth. Satan loves Christmas and Santa Clause, he delights that Christmas is commercial and the true meaning is being forgotten. Satan loves philosophy, football, gambling, everything that occupies our minds and keeps us busy so we never seek out our creator and the truth He has given us. True Christians are his real target. Satan wants to take all mankind with him into the lake of fire or Hell. The only people he won't take with him are Christians. He has decieved the Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Mormons, Jehovahs witnesses, all the cults and "isms" but the Christians will be going to Heaven to dwell with God while Satan and all he deceived will be going to Hell.

      Satan delights when a person who "claims" to be Christian does horrible things, he delights when a church or Christian makes mistakes. If Satan can get someone into a church in the role of priest lets say and have that priest become a pediphile, Satan delights. Many who claim to be Christian are not Christians in the eyes of God. Satan delights when someone like you judges the Church by what supposed Christians do. Never mind the Church for now, start with the Word of God the Bible.

                                                          Paul2

Traveler:

You have already received some excellent answers to your questions, but let me add my responses to your questions below:

Why do christians deny the past?
Perhaps you should have said "some" Christians and perhaps you should have also said some "Christians".  Just because people or nations have carried the "Christian" label does not mean that they were genuine Christians.  Even Christ said that there will be many who carry this label but are not truly Christian.  There have been many atrocities committed in the name of Christ, and it is for all true believers to point this out and not deny it in any way.  That, however does not invalidate Christianity but does prove that men at heart are sinners who needs to be saved from their heinous crimes by the grace of God.

Why do they demand and convert?
Because it is God's express command that now [since the death, burial and resurrection of Christ] ALL MEN EVERYWHERE SHOULD REPENT. This is not something which originates with Christians, but it is a direct command of God. All mankind is commanded to "obey" the Gospel, which means to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, and be converted.

What happened to Christmas?
First of all, Christmas is not something taught in the Bible as a day to be observed specifically.  If anything, it is the day of the Lord's resurrection [the first day of the week] which should be observed every week.  However you are right -- Christmas has become commercial and worldly, because it serves the purpose of those who would like to use it as an excuse to buy and sell.  Don't blame Christians for that ,since the whole world "celebrates" Christmas for their own reasons.

Why not modernize?
Because God is unchanging, and His truth about Adam and Eve and Christ is the truth.  You do not change the truth simply becuase it is no longer fashionable.  The Gospel has always been and will always be the same -- salvation is by God's grace through the sinner's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His shed blood.  The Bible is God's truth, not man's inventions.

So why are you Christian?
Because (1) I know that I am a sinner in God's eyes (2) I know I can do absolutely nothing to be acceptable to God, since He demands absolute perfection (3) I know that Christ -- who is God the Son, as well as the Son of God, the Messiah, and the Lamb of God -- "took away" my sins and the sins of the world when He offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin on the Cross about 2,000 years ago (4) because I do not want to die and go to an eternal hell without Christ (5) because I want God's gift od eternal life through Jesus Christ (6) because I want to be a child of God and live according to His Word and (7) because God sees me as righteous as Himself the moment I believe that He loved me enough to give His Son to me as His gift of love.

The reasons you are not sure that Jesus Christ is the Messiah is (1) because you probably did not approach the New Testament with an open mind and a childlike faith in God -- that God never lies and God has written His "love-letter" to us in the Holyi Bible (2) because you probably heard about Christ second-hand rather than tried to "mine" the Word of God for yourself, looking for spiritual treasure and the truth about Christ in the four Gospels (3) because you believed the lies of Satan and men who are blind to the truth. If you will simply pick up the New Testament [King James Version] and read the Gospel of John carefully and reverently as the very words of God, you will also believe that Jesus of Nazareth is your Creator as well as your Redeemer.

The historical facts are (1) that Jesus of Nazareth was indeed born of Mary in Bethlehem (2) lived on this earth a sinless life for about 30 years (3) performed numerous miracles to prove that He is God (4) forgave sins on earth to also prove that He is God (4) was crucified, died, and was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights (5) rose again from the dead and (5) ascended into heaven.

The spiritual facts are (1) He died as the Lamb of God to take away your sins (2) He is now enthroned in Heaven as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (3) He is also seated in heaven at the right hand of the Father as the Christian's divine Intercessor -- our great high priest Melchizedek (5) He will return for His "Bride" -- to take all His saints with Him to heaven and (6) He will finally come in great power and glory with His saints to judge the earth and to establish His kingdom on earth.

The real question is: Are you ready to meet your Creator and Saviour?  Buddhism cannot save you, neither can any good works or righteous living on your part, because in God's eyes "ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS". The only way to be saved is to be washed in His blood and clothed with His righteousness.

Buddhist, Buddhist. Always demanding prove. It is not enough to believe? The Buddha himself would have never been so


Who denies? Besides, are you telling me that in 2000 years of History, we killed more people then the Holocaust? Of COURSE! Think about it, Hitler didn’t have near the time we have hit, and the body count is accumulative. It is only logical.


Because we believe there is one way to god. This is a basic concept of Christianity.


The idea of people just randomly giving you gift just caught on.


Ha, I think you need to study both Christianity and Buddhism more. There are sects of Christians who modernize. There are sect of Buddhism who follow there ancient ways. Seeing as you follow Theravada, I don’t see where you have the right to ask this.


Why are you an American Buddhist? 90% of all American’s who are Buddhist are doing it just to rebel against he church. Anyways, my advise is to search the forums, we have had several topics that is this question come up, and they lead some interesting talks about it. This might help you out.


I think you need to get you head in the books and start studying Christianity. You seems of have missed a few parts. Or better yet, forget the books, and go talk to a Christian minister or two.

My question to you, why are you Theravada?

     Traveler,

    Your getting some great responces to your questions. I want to take you into the realm of prophecy and the things to come. Many people like you stop by and post here a couple of times and then move on because... well I don't know why they leave but I would guess it is because the truth of the Bible never became real to them, they weren't convinced. Nobody can convince anybody to believe anything, they are not willing to accept, whether it be truth or lies. God's word the Bible says, seek and ye shall find, are you seeking to know the truth? This is important before I continue...

      ARE YOU SEEKING TO KNOW THE TRUTH?

        ARE YOU WILLING TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH?

         WOULD YOU RATHER BE DECEIVED BY A LIE THAT IS NOT THE TRUTH, BUT AGREES WITH YOUR PERSONAL PHILOSOPHY, OR DOES TRUTH MEAN MORE THAN PHILOSOPHY?

        IF YOU COULD FIND THE "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" ABOUT GOD, AND MAN, WOULD YOU SEEK TO FIND THE TRUTH OR WOULD YOU RATHER BELIEVE A LIE?

      I PRAY FOR YOU NOW MY BROTHER "TRAVELER" THAT THE CREATOR (GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT) CALLS TO YOUR HEART NOW THE DESIRE TO KNOW THE TRUTH. I PRAY GOD GIVE YOU THE STRENGTH, AND ENDURANCE TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND THE COURAGE TO EMBRACE THE TRUTH YOU WILL SURELY FIND ONCE YOU TRUELY SEEK TO FIND THE TRUTH. I PRAY YOU HAVE THE WISDOM TO ACCEPT THE TRUTH BECAUSE IT IS THE TRUTH EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE TRUTH THAT YOU WON'T LIKE.(such as people going to hell for refusing to seek the truth and be saved, but chose to follow lies that deceived and led to eternal judgment in hell for instance) I PRAY GOD GIVE YOU THE FAITH TO BELIEVE IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST. I PRAY THAT ONCE YOU PUT YOUR FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST, HE WILL SEND YOU THE HOLY SPIRIT TO INDWELL YOU AND BECOME YOUR HOLY SPIRITUAL TEACHER AND GUIDE TO THE TRUTH. I PRAY THAT YOU SEEK THE TRUTH, FIND SALVATION THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT, AND ARE GUIDED IN TRUTH TO THE PURPOSE OF YOUR CREATION.

         MAN SAYS TO GOD, "SHOW ME AND I'LL BELIEVE."

      GOD SAYS TO MAN,"BELIEVE ME AND I'LL SHOW YOU."

       Consider what I've written here and truely ask yourself if your seeking truth or content with lies.

       Theres an event coming in the future that will convince many that the Bible was the truth but by then it will be to late to be part of the event known as the "RAPTURE fo the Church". The Rapture of the Church is when Jesus Christ calls His Church (all believers) to meet him on the clouds. Millions of people world wide will vanish in an instant, the blinking of an eye. then comes the period of wrath against rebellious man for failing to seek the truth and refusing to accept the truth they heard. Many who have said I'll believe it when I see it will find that the truth they ignored was the truth after all. If you refuse the truth now, maybe knowing what is to come will convince you once it comes to pass. My desire is that you become a Christian and be Raptured with the Church, but your destiny may be to become a tribulation saint and be martyred after missing the Rapture of the Church and becoming a believer after the Rapture because someone like me prepared you ahead of time and once you saw it with your own eyes you believed it and put your faith in Jesus, and will be required to be be-headed for believing in Jesus by Antichrist. I'd hate to think your destiny is the lake of fire.

    Pray for your Creator to show you the truth! You decide your destiny, seek to know the truth.

    Don't go away yet my friend, theres more you need to know first. I've got to go now but I'll continue on later.

                                          Paul2